Re-roofing my house (with the help of A:M)

[robcat2075]

I've needed to put a new roof on this house for years

 

I need to rip off the old roof first and I need to be able to cover the house while I do that. The largest tarp Home Depot sells is not large enough to cover the whole roof at once so I'm using A:M and Simcloth to test out various placements and to see where likely places to tie it down will be.

 

this is a somewhat accurate, full size approximation of my roof and a 60' x 40' tarp:

 

 

[Fuchur]

I've needed to put a new roof on this house for years

 

I need to rip off the old roof first and I need to be able to cover the house while I do that. The largest tarp Home Depot sells is not large enough to cover the whole roof at once so I'm using A:M and Simcloth to test out various placements and to see where likely places to tie it down will be.

 

this is a somewhat accurate, full size approximation of my roof and a 60' x 40' tarp:

 

 

 

Wow robert... that are really large hailstones... sorry to hear that it somewhat killed your roof.

But nice test! But sounds to me, that you will need more than one tarp for that.

 

See you

*Fuchur*

[fae_alba]

3 tarps. Place one down first down the middle, the remaining two for the major coverage that overlap over the first. So if there is a leak where the second two are there is enough coverage from the first to keep the house dry.

 

like so.

[robcat2075]

My big problem is the irregular geometry of the back of the house. It will be difficult to drape anything over it and cover the things that leak and not create a potential collecting area for more water than the structure could hold.

[fae_alba]

My big problem is the irregular geometry of the back of the house. It will be difficult to drape anything over it and cover the things that leak and not create a potential collecting area for more water than the structure could hold.

 

then your best bet is to only expose the section you are working on. After doing many roofs like yours, I've learned the hard way that no matter how good you are in tarping and tieing down those tarps, a good storm with strong winds will still get under those tarps and ruin the plaster underneath.

[Maniac]

WOW the damage made .sorry that happened...But Goto love your tarp test LoL hard core A.M

[MMZ_TimeLord]

DAAANNNGGG! That was some serious hail!

 

Actually I would suggest draping the two sides FIRST, then down the middle and securing the center piece to the other two. This way any rain will go over the center tarp and then down the sides and not run underneath.

 

As to the irregular geometry on the back of the house... just respline it to your needs.

 

Seriously, probably would probably be better off cutting around the various protrusions and taping to them.

 

Good luck!

[tbenefi33]

Good god oh mighty that was some hail,

 

nice animation.

 

Came across this site they may have what your looking for they got all kind of different size tarps http://www.tarpsplus.com/

[GAngus]

Wow, doing a new roof on that house will be a monumental project, even for the most experienced roofing specialist, for sure. The "slopes" are pretty severe and there may be no walking around way up there for them. They will use those moveable planks that they have and work there way up from the bottom to the top.

 

Consider securing a line (a heavy rope will do) from chimney-top to chimney-top and drape the tarps over it, perhaps on just only that one long span.

Most tarps have good eyelets and 2 of them connected at the eyelets (or more points) could make one larger tarp ?

 

Good "roofers" work very fast. I have seen roofs like that done in 3 days, from start to finish. Just get tight with the weather forecast and carve out a 2-3 day optimal time for doing it.

 

Good luck.

[3DArtZ]

I would at least examine the possibility of using 3m liquid rubber spray on the roof. unless the entire roof leaks... you know if you can find spots that are the main leakage points and just use the rubber spray over that area as a quick fix until you get the roof redone....

if you can do that, you might need like 30 cans though.

good luck... also no homeowners insurance.... I mean that's like skydiving with no parachute... you're going to eventually hit the ground....

[TheSpleen]

very cool

[robcat2075]

I was up on the roof this morning shooting expanding foam into the obvious holes. That may do until I get the tarp config figured out.

 

House insurance has been like health insurance for me... i don't qualify for any that would actually be worth anything. That made the buying decision easy.

 

The good news is I haven't spent $25,000 over the last 10 years on the phoney home insurance I've been offered.

 

I've decided I'm going to go full tilt and put a metal roof on here.

 

I've read the manual and it's not nearly as complicated as car repairs I've done and the parts themselves will cost less than hiring a roofer to put regular shingles back on.

 

 

Here's a WebGL model of of my roof you can turn in your browser.

[John Bigboote]

Here's a WebGL model of of my roof you can turn in your browser.

 

Cool. Don't forget to use Chrome to see that, FF stalled. Big house dude! Sorry to hear of your dilemma. Keep us posted as of the progress, I too have a large roof that will need to be redone in about 5 years- I am interested in metal roofing. Will you have some friends to help you out or would you hire some young kids to help with the extra manpower? There should be at least 2 people involved in case something... happens.

[Walter Baker]

Once again Rob your amazing. Using AM to help with such a project.

Just be very careful, looks like a rugged job.

[mouseman]

Here's a WebGL model of of my roof you can turn in your browser.

Cool. Don't forget to use Chrome to see that, FF stalled.

FF worked fine for me.

 

To echo the sentiment of others, Robert, be safe while doing this.

[Fuchur]

Here's a WebGL model of of my roof you can turn in your browser.

 

Cool. Don't forget to use Chrome to see that, FF stalled. Big house dude! Sorry to hear of your dilemma. Keep us posted as of the progress, I too have a large roof that will need to be redone in about 5 years- I am interested in metal roofing. Will you have some friends to help you out or would you hire some young kids to help with the extra manpower? There should be at least 2 people involved in case something... happens.

 

My firefox is now able to view that. FF 13.01

 

See you

*Fuchur*

[robcat2075]

My initial thumbnail calculation is that the supplies for this metal roof will cost under $5000 and yet estimates from roofing companies to do this run about $40,000. I can't figure that out.

[NancyGormezano]

My initial thumbnail calculation is that the supplies for this metal roof will cost under $5000 and yet estimates from roofing companies to do this run about $40,000. I can't figure that out.

 

Uh..well...uh...how many people does $40K cover? and how long will it take them? I'm assuming that's the bottom line estimate for the whole job, not just the supplies? They already have all the equipment, experience.

 

How many companies gave estimates? Do they all estimate based on something per square foot? Type of roof? (slope, shape, corners, etc). Perhaps there is a subset of work they could do for you? I don't know what that might be.

 

Or, if Texas is anything like California, perhaps there are some big-strong-worker-dudes hanging out at the Home Depot (you know the ones in the parking lot) who could help for cheap? There should be at least someone else helping you with enough experience to call 911.

 

Sounds scary to me. Not impossible. Just risky.

[robcat2075]

Here's an example from the brochure...

 

 

 

I'd go for dark gray or blue, however.

 

 

 

 

 

Uh..well...uh...how many people does $40K cover? and how long will it take them? I'm assuming that's the bottom line estimate for the whole job, not just the supplies? They already have all the equipment, experience.

 

 

here's the paradox...

 

Material for a shingle roof... about $3000. Professional roofer estimate for a shingle roof... $9800 to do it in two days

 

Materials + labor.. that sounds possibly right.

 

 

Materials for metal roof... $5000. Professional roofer estimate for a metal roof... $40,000 to do it in about two days.

 

What accounts for that $30,000 difference? It can't be the labor. Attaching one metal panel where you would have had to nail 100 shingles can't be that big a deal. All the stuff you put under the roof is the same either way. I think the difference is that clueless rich people will pay $40K for a metal roof.

 

 

 

How many companies gave estimates? Do they all estimate based on something per square foot? Type of roof? (slope, shape, corners, etc). Perhaps there is a subset of work they could do for you? I don't know what that might be.

 

I've had five out here. All expressed disinterest once i revealed there wasn't an insurance company they could bill, even for a regular shingle job.

 

I did ask one about just doing the re-decking for me. He wasn't enthused.

 

After this storm they're gong to be busy for months doing roofs for customers who have insurance and won't be questioning the price.

[NancyGormezano]

What accounts for that $30,000 difference? It can't be the labor. Attaching one metal panel where you would have had to nail 100 shingles can't be that big a deal. All the stuff you put under the roof is the same either way. I think the difference is that clueless rich people will pay $40K for a metal roof.

 

After this storm they're gong to be busy for months doing roofs for customers who have insurance and won't be questioning the price.

 

Some price gouging, collusion going on based on supply & demand in this local area time of need? If Dallas was declared a disaster area, that might be illegal (ha ha).

 

Did you ask any of them why the difference in labor costs?

 

Here's what I found online about one guy's opinion of metal roof installation on this page

 

"Having just spent several days watching the guys install it I would certainly say that no way should a layperson attempt this. The flashings are so complicated, the tools so specialized, the surface so slick, and the panels so huge that you are just asking for trouble.

Much of the warranty is dependent on installation.

There is so much info online- get busy googling and educate yourself."

 

Other comments on that page indicate the price of metal roof installation would be 2X price of shingles (2011, not after a storm). Not 4X. In California, you can forget about getting earthquake insurance right after a major quake. In time, prices will tend to drop, as demand goes down.

 

Here's another link which talks about metal interlocking shingles - might be cheaper? easier? than standing seam metal roof

 

From that page:

 

If your roof gets complicated, you can expect to pay a lot for a standing seam roof, and even more for very steep roofs. The main reason for this is the way that a standing seam roof is designed and installed. Because of the vertical panel design, there is no way to put up any kind of roof brackets, so moving on such roof becomes extremely difficult and dangerous. While on a steep gable roof an installer can use a special hook ladder, thrown over the ridge, and move it left or right and he needs, working in valleys or even worse, on hip roofs, borders impossible, without a boom lift, except for roofs with low slope (3-4 in 12).

 

Another major limitation of standing seam roofing is the inherited design flaws. The ribs on the panels make it a very difficult system to install, when it comes to any kind of flashing detail. For example it it is a wall flashing, the panel must be cut, making sure the cut is straight. Then a lip has to be bent up, and only then the panel can be attached to the roof. But this is not all. Now it is time for Z-bar to be installed and ofter than a side-wall or head-wall flashing. Mind you all of this must be done while installer is on the roof, with all kinds of tools, and trying not to fall off the roof.

 

While all of the above is doable, and is done on regular basis, there is on type of flashing detail for which there isn’t a single good way to do it. I’m talking about chimneys and sky-lights. There are different ways to flash them, but all are reliant on caulking to make the watertight. The problem in in the back pan of every sky-light of chimney flashing (unless chimney has a cricket) and connection between back-pan and z-bar/sidewall flashing on the sides of the sky-light or a chimney.

 

I’ve included a link to one of the “best” ways to install such flashing detail, which for one, is very complicated, and I still would not use it. The problem is that there is no better way. Please review the sky-light / chimney flashing detail produced by ATAS. You may also read this thread on ContractorTalk regarding skylights in standing seam: http://www.contractortalk.com/f15/skylight...-roofing-60324/

 

So in a nutshell, standing seam is great when you have an easy roof. As soon as your roof gets complicated, you want to stay away from standing seam. If you still choose to use it, expect of of the following: A contractor you hire (I just don’t see a home owner installing a complicated standing seam roof) will charge a lot for a good installation. If you get a “deal”, expect a frustrated contractor cutting every possible corner. If you hire an eager contractor, chances are it the their first complicated standing seam metal roof and you will get mediocre quality at best, if the contractor actually manages to finish the roof. Some just stop in the middle of installation and never come back to it, leaving you with a roof half-done.

Edited July 8, 2012 by NancyGormezano

[robcat2075]

thanks for finding that post about flashing a skylight, Nancy, i will need that!

 

That talk about how impossible it all is... that sounds a lot like what heard about doing my own car repairs.

 

Then one day my boyfriend showed me that you could walk into an auto-parts store, buy a $20 "Chilton" manual for your model car and things that were formerly unknown and impossible were now known and possible, explained in a linear series of steps along with the parts you need and the tools you need to use. Follow the directions... it gets done.

 

(this worked a lot better before cars got electronic.)

 

I suppose a metal roofing panel is unwieldy to get up on a roof and into position, but so is a 4x8 sheet of plywood and I'll have to get a lot of those up there no matter what sort of roof I put on. The whole roof needs to be redecked. Code won't let me put anything on the old shingles.

 

My biggest doubt still is.. can i tie this tarp down so that it really stays on when it needs to stay on? I've been on sailboats and I know the wind can catch a little bit of canvas and make a lot of force.

[robcat2075]

Previous high altitude work...

 

 

 

 

But here's how you don't fall off the roof:

 

Bucket of Safe-Tie

 

 

you screw the bracket to the top of the house, you put on the harness, attach the rope at both ends.

[robcat2075]

I've measured every face of the roof and have laid it out flat...

 

 

I can use this to visualize how many 4x8 sheets of OSB i'll need to redeck it, how many nails I'll need to fasten those in, how many rolls of roofing felt to go over the OSB, how many staples I'll need to hold down the roofing felt... and so on.

[MMZ_TimeLord]

OMG! A practical use for A:M... STOP! You are going to unravel the fabric of space and time!!!!

 

I've used A:M in the past for some design work and it's an excellent tool. My only bitch is the lack of solids modeling. i.e. - make a cube, subtract a cylinder and have a cube with a round hole in it., etc.

 

Cheers!

[robcat2075]

Now that I have accurate sizes this is looking to be a hair more expensive than I thought.

 

But still less expensive than hiring a roofer.

 

STOP! You are going to unravel the fabric of space and time!!!!

 

Here's something... if I measure the roof along the top ridge it is 46 feet wide. If I measure from the edge to the peak of the dormer, to the next dormer, to the next dormer and to the other edge I get 45 feet.

 

I've remeasured this several times and I keep getting that one foot difference.

[robcat2075]

I made a grid that reproduces the offset pattern of OSB sheets to better see how they might fit on the roof.

 

 

 

 

However, my grand plan may be foiled. Metal roofs are not listed as a "permitted material" in my Planned Development District. I'm investigating a "Special Use Permit."

[pixelplucker]

Metal roofs are more intended for cold weather environments with lots of snow, not sure how spiffy they would look with the hail you get. Might resemble a recycle center after a good storm. Hail that size you might be better off putting gym mats on top.

Insurance doesn't cover a new roof?

[robcat2075]

Can't get insurance for a house that has no central heat and air, has old wiring and a non-code-conforming roof.

 

There are some very spiffy houses in the vicinity with metal roofs and they seem to have survived the hail storm well. I think this ought to be feasible.

 

 

It looks great in the brochure, what could go wrong?

 

 

[Shelton]

Robert

 

Metal roofs are making their way back into our areas. Living in Tulsa and being a claims adjuster I see more and more metal. The critical component of metal roofing, in my opinion, is the backing. Wether it is foam or other products make sure there is a good underlayment that way the metal lays flat. As far as damagability of metal it will withstand against the smaller hail. The size of hail that hit your house, well there is not much products on the market would have made it through.

 

Steve

[Fuchur]

Dont underestimate the interchange effects of metall on metall etc. (for instance connected aluminium and steal will result in a much higher corrosion and stuff like that) so there is more work to be done and metall is harder to work with in general, but yes 30.000 more sounds a little over the edge.

 

See you

*Fuchur*

[robcat2075]

Dents I could live with, especially on the roof on the back side of the house which is practically invisible from every possible vantage point around the property.

 

Repairing a shingled roof every 5-10 years at professional prices... I won't be able to do that.

 

 

Steel on Aluminum should not be a problem since there's no aluminum in this system and i can't think of any aluminum on my roof now.

[Fuchur]

Dents I could live with, especially on the roof on the back side of the house which is practically invisible from every possible vantage point around the property.

 

Repairing a shingled roof every 5-10 years at professional prices... I won't be able to do that.

 

 

Steel on Aluminum should not be a problem since there's no aluminum in this system and i can't think of any aluminum on my roof now.

 

Often used for chimenyes or stuff like that (copper can be a problem too)... but if it is a roof-system, they very likely thought about that before... so should not be a bigger problem.

 

See you

*Fuchur*

[pixelplucker]

If the other metal roofs held up under that storm then maybe it is the way to go. Tin roof could be good if you have some cats you can toss up there. I still like the idea of gym mats.

[robcat2075]

Here's a simulation of what it might look like:

 

[John Bigboote]

What is the 'treadability' of a metal roof like that- compared to shingles. If a serviceman or you need to get up to the peak, is it slippery-slidery on an angle like that?

[robcat2075]

What is the 'treadability' of a metal roof like that- compared to shingles. If a serviceman or you need to get up to the peak, is it slippery-slidery on an angle like that?

 

Like this?

 

 

 

I don't think you do that anymore.

[John Bigboote]

Well, I would think that is a major point of consideration... you may have a legitimate need to get to the peak of your house in the future... no?

[jakerupert]

Hi Robcat,

 

Don't want to step in your way, but from the point of astethics i defintily have to second your city council in that the chindel look much better and fit better to the old style of the house, but thats just a matter of personal taste.

 

Maybe there are still other possibly advantages?

Lower noise on impact (rain), better to repair in smaller parts, better room climate?

Just guessing.

Good luck in this endeavour!

 

PS: Maybe the metalroof would look better in black and they might have it with a sligthly roughed surface.

I think, i have seen something like that in denmark

I guess, the work is done much faster in putting on some bigger metalsheets than all these tiny chindles?

 

Could you post the adress from that metalroofcompany, i am curious?

[Roger]

What about slate shingles? That might give you better durability than asphalt but still give you the traditional look.

Although I think a slate roof might be even worse than metal, cost-wise, and probably as hard or harder to install.

[robcat2075]

Could you post the adress from that metalroofcompany, i am curious?

 

http://www.mcelroymetal.com/index.cfm

 

 

What about slate shingles?

 

Slate is very heavy and would require a substantial reinforcement of the structure of the house, and difficult to install.

[pixelplucker]

Suction cups on your shoes should work fine for climbing metal roofs, though I never tried, I'd be interested in the results if anyone else wants to give them a go.

[jakerupert]

I iinstantly get a picture of Wallace and Gromit and the Technotrousers before my eyes.

 

Wouldn`t dare to risk some slapsticky gigs on your roof...

[robcat2075]

Don't want to step in your way, but from the point of astethics i defintily have to second your city council in that the chindel look much better and fit better to the old style of the house, but thats just a matter of personal taste.

 

I've looked at metal shingles for a long time and haven't given up on doing that on the front of the house, but the installation for those is quite complicated.