legal ownership

[John Bigboote]

SO- I did a big 3D job in A:M back in 2007 for a major national pizza retailer. After the client nit-picked and over-art-directed the job to death they 'shelved' it stating they thought it just didn't have the 'photorealism'...

 

FAST-FORWARD to 2012... the production company I made the animation at went out of business in late 2011. The client is now at another(rival) post-house and wants to revisit the job. I ended-up at a small presentation company. The other(rival) post-house has contacted me and requested I ship over the project files so they can rebuild it in M*y*. I am aghast that they have the nerve, and the owner of the company that wants the files was the owner at my old company who still owes me some $2500 in vacation pay. They are even requesting I convert the .mdl files to .obj so their animators will have an easier start. I have stalled them for now, stating that since the client did not like the way my job looked, perhaps they should start 'afresh'. If they press me on the issue... I guess I will state that I made a mistake in thinking I had the files, and that they are on a drive that turned out to be corrupt. They are not going to get the files.

 

My question is... who owns the files?

[largento]

That's a tricky one. I've considered this question before.

 

The client paid the agency to produce a spot. That's a video they can deliver for broadcast.

 

They paid for the production, but do they own the files created during the production?

 

My personal feeling is they do not.

 

If somebody paid somebody to make a wooden circle, I don't think they have a right to claim they own the excess wood and the stencil used to cut it out.

[Darkwing]

Well, I've heard stories of people who've bought cars (via monthly payments) and then the car business/dealership/whatever has gone out of business and that neither the customer or former company then owns the car. Usually gets confiscated or something I think. So I would think this would be a similar thing where neither you nor the other person owns the files.

[MMZ_TimeLord]

My understanding is that the company that was contracted to do the job 'owns' the files. But, now that the company is defunct and does not retain a copy of the files themselves from data backup, they are SOoL in my book.

 

If you indeed believe that you have the files, great. If you are still owed back pay, vacation or otherwise, you can pretty much tell them they OWE you, not the other way around and you won't even look for the files until you are settled on that matter.

 

Pfft... they want you to convert them. HAH!, I'd make them pay you the $2500 they owe AND then a fee for the conversion. If they don't, tough cookies.

 

Cheers!

[Rodney]

I'd make them pay you the $2500 they owe AND then a fee for the conversion. If they don't, tough cookies.

 

 

Let them know that after they have deposited that money ($2500) in your account they can then bid on a new work contract (conversion of files).

Assuming you don't normally perform that job as part of your job the contract should be worth your time plus the fee you'll be charged to subcontract.

If anyone has issue with it then they need to take it up personally with the old contractor.

[Fuchur]

SO- I did a big 3D job in A:M back in 2007 for a major national pizza retailer. After the client nit-picked and over-art-directed the job to death they 'shelved' it stating they thought it just didn't have the 'photorealism'...

 

FAST-FORWARD to 2012... the production company I made the animation at went out of business in late 2011. The client is now at another(rival) post-house and wants to revisit the job. I ended-up at a small presentation company. The other(rival) post-house has contacted me and requested I ship over the project files so they can rebuild it in M*y*. I am aghast that they have the nerve, and the owner of the company that wants the files was the owner at my old company who still owes me some $2500 in vacation pay. They are even requesting I convert the .mdl files to .obj so their animators will have an easier start. I have stalled them for now, stating that since the client did not like the way my job looked, perhaps they should start 'afresh'. If they press me on the issue... I guess I will state that I made a mistake in thinking I had the files, and that they are on a drive that turned out to be corrupt. They are not going to get the files.

 

My question is... who owns the files?

 

In general it is better to behave professional and just work with them. If they want the files to be converted, they need to pay for that but if they are willing to send you a harddisc without convertion you should give them what they want. In the end it is about your reputation... although I know it can be quite annoying, you just should do it that way to be professional about it.

 

It would not be professional to not have a backup of the project-files and it would not be if you would not give the data out.

 

See you

*Fuchur*

 

PS: And dont let the production company pay the $2500... they are not going to and will never look at you again. the $2500 have to be payed by your former customer, not the production-company. So talk to him and tell him, that he still needs to give you money before you can send the files to the company.

 

It is very common to exchange data between advertising agencies and it should be as painless as possible. "Tomorrow" you have the same problem and need to ask for something and you will see how akward that is...

Nobody likes to do it, but going with your inner attitude will give you trouble sooner or later.

[jakerupert]

I would say you or/and the production company own the (construction) files, the client just bought the finalproduct> movie animation file,

except if not extra payed also for the "construction"-files, which you generally wouldn`t do, because you risk to loose that client, because he could

then transfer your work to cheaper laborous. (same with photoshop, indesign or architectural data, you don`t sell your "secrets", that your competion could work with, but a finished house.)

To give them away out of good will for the reasons Fuchur stated, for instance to have a chance to stay in touch with certain clients, is another thing, that should be considered from case to case.

 

In this case I too would take the opprtunity to charge for the conversion of your files (that amount should just for you also include, what these files are worth to you), so everybody is happy and you get some unexpected extrafee.

[fae_alba]

A) the production company was hired to do the work

you were hired by the production company to do the work

C) job was canceled, and most likely nothing delivered to the client, and or paid for

D) production company goes out of business

 

In the software world, I have seen contracts written that if the vendor bellies up, then each customer gets a copy of the software free and clear. Essentially the product goes to the public domain, UNLESS the company or its assets were purchased by another company.

 

So, I would say that since the original job was presumably never paid for the files belong to the production company. But since that company went out of business, the files could *belong* to whomever has possession., i.e. you. I certainly might consider handing them over, just to be a nice guy, but I would also certainly wouldn't do any work for free (the conversion). Also, based on past history, if you have no intention of working for these guys in the future, play hard ball, charge them a "recovery fee" for your time to hunt the files down, move them to a cd, and ship them off, paid for in advance.

[robcat2075]

If your contract doesn't say they own the files, they don't own the files.

 

If they do own the files, quote them a fee for storing them and unarchiving them and a consulting fee for help in converting them.

 

It's unlikely any favors you do them now will result in favorable consideration later so you might as well charge them for any involvement you have now.

[DJBREIT]

Nine tens of the law is possessions. If they did not keep a copy of the files it is there tuff luck. There may be some copy right issues if you tried to sell them to a third party. But this is not the case. And if their lawyers try to threaten you tell them your computer is having amnesia.

 

It's unlikely any favors you do them now will result in favorable consideration later so you might as well charge them for any involvement you have now.

This is the most likely case.

 

You may what to start with a high number. Or you can do what my brother dose. Start with a number and go up when they try to lower the number. Ya my brother is a total dick but I works more time than not.

 

good luck:)

[frosteternal]

UNLESS specifically stated in your contract that all work done was work-for-hire INCLUDING the source files, you own the files. If the client was paying you to produce a image (or animation) - they don't own your means to create that image.

 

The professional thing to do is charge them for the conversion, give them the obj files, and be on your merry way. Nothing is free, certainly not archiving data for them indefinitely. =)

 

(Now, if your original client owes you money for the job, they don't own your work under work-for-hire anyhow because they never paid you the agreed-upon fee.)

[pixelplucker]

You as the creator own the files and all working files. Typically a client pays for a finished product and not all the working pieces or equipment used to produce the finish art.

 

Depending on how your contract your it is possible you retain copy rights even on the finish product as some of the big agencies do.

If you work for a company then that company typically owns the rights.

 

The work I do, I let the customer deal with the copy rights and they can do as they please with finished files. I keep the working files for myself and only in rare cases I turn them over to the client. Not too long ago I turned over gigs of backup disks to another shop that acquired one of my customers and the only reason I did that was because my customer was a really descent person and it helped him seal the deal and keep his employee hired at the new place.

 

Bottom line.. if they didn't pay they can pound sand..

I would let them struggle and do it all from scratch since it is obvious that they don't have the abilities or they wouldn't be asking in the first place. Sometimes it's nice to sit back and watch a few bottom feeders sweat it out

[John Bigboote]

I really appreciate everyone's advice on this!

 

I was ultimately able to 'diffuse' the situation by asking what it was exactly that was being requested. The salesperson... who was probably being informed by the animator replied that all they wanted was the OBJ files. I informed her that there were no OBJ files since I used a different program, and that since the client did not like the way my animation looked, perhaps a fresh start was the best way to go about this. They bought it.

 

I remember the job was a quick turnaround, low-budget, and highly art-directed with dozens of variations in the end. (The price on the wood peel is not the same from market to market, so a $5 pizza in one city is a $6 pizza in another, and many variations at $4.99... $5.49... $5.99... and THEN they needed it all in Spanish as well!) The TRICKY part was the falling coins landing in 'just' such a spot, and with A:M and Newton Dynamics and a nifty trick or two I was able to get it the way the client wanted quite swiftly. All-in-all, it was GREAT learning experience, and who am I to deprive another animator of going down the same road???

 

I see I had taken down the spot from Youtube due to some legal-shmegal trouble I got into... now it is a private link! Here is the spot, some of you may remember it:

[fae_alba]

I see I had taken down the spot from Youtube due to some legal-shmegal trouble I got into... now it is a private link! Here is the spot, some of you may remember it:

 

Seems Little C is making a comeback..they've been out of my area for some time, and in the last month or so they've started promotions again..you did a great job on the coins..

[MMZ_TimeLord]

Yes, I vaguely recall those two spots. You did an excellent job on the coin placement. I can't for the life of me remember how it was done.

 

Did you simulate it in a 'stencil' model, then bake the newton simulation and remove the stencil?

[kikiriki]

You are the owner of the files! Clients pays you for the final product- which is a movie file. And they got the final product. So they got what they payed for.

 

The way how did you made the final product is entirely your own. It may consist a lot of "trade secrets" and you are absolutely not obligated to reveal them.

 

If you buy a bottle of Coca-Cola in the store (or any other product), you buy a final product. The company is not obligated to give you a recipe how the Coca-Cola is made, because in that way you can mix your own Coca-Cola and the company will be out of business.

 

So- if the initial contract doesn't state otherwise, you are absolutely NOT obligated to give them anything but the final product.

But you can sell them the models if you want (and the price is usually bigger than the price for the final product).

[John Bigboote]

Paul- Thanks for the compliment, Little Caesars Pizza has really appealed to the 'budget' low-end lunch-crowd... their pizzas are cheaply made and taste cheap too... good in a pinch tho! The owners are great Detroiters, Mike and Marion Illitch who also own the Detroit Tigers and Red Wings, MotorCity Casino and about half of Detroit- for what that's worth. They are what you would consider... 'good millionaires'.

 

MMZ- Stencil Mode? Got me there. There is a thread from back in the day where I explain my method... but- basically I did individual Newton coin-drop simulations, quick and easy to do. If I liked the way the coin bounced I baked it as an action and saved it. Once I had a lot of these 'canned' drops I would ... coin by coin in a choreography... apply an action to a coin and then rotate and place the entire thing so it ended-up right where I wanted it to be.

http://www.hash.com/forums/index.php?showt...80&hl=coins

 

Kikiriki- good analogy with the Coke-Cola.

[pixelplucker]

Nice animation. Typical of big chains they will b-break ya and MIBMIS (make it bigger make it smaller) the job into utter failure.

 

The rendering is nice but maybe a little noise and maybe vary the lighting (slightly darker on the edges) would have added some realism. Too bad you didn't have Fast AO back then.

 

Only thing I ever liked about that particular company was the cartoon character.

[John Bigboote]

Yeah... maybe I should open this old project up and try a little fastAO... good idea! Yes, they have a cool mascot!

[kualrobi]

Hi John Bigboote,

 

I see that you have had plenty of advice already. Perhaps my scribbles will add in preventing problems in the future.

When I give someone a quote I always state underneath that what the customer buys is the endresult a.k.a. the rendered images as an animation.

The 3D models always remain my sole property. It is the only security you have that people will return to you.

You made the models for a company that went bankrupt/or just stopped working. I've worked at a large company that went belly up. Technically the company that went out of business

ownes the models because you were in their employ (as I understand). If they did not back up the models, then they are simply lost. If they (not the third party) want the models you could propose to exchange it for the vacation pament they owe you. It would not be advisable to have the third party pay that.

 

If the belly-up company was not bought by the third party that is now requesting the models, they do not own the rights and you are obligated to nothing.

Apparently they think the models are good enough to continue with, so you could offer to work on the project again. You could give a quote and have them sign it.

Then you would have a new deal with rights and obligations. Your investments is the use of the models. Their investments is that they pay you. Another way would be to arrange a deal where you work with another animator. Just don't be counted out.

 

This situation was a big issue between Pixar an Disney with Toy Story 3. The two companies had an agreement that Disney was (co?)-owner of the 3D models and had the right to make a third installment of the Toy saga on their own. In fact they started it. Pixar was not happy with this. When Disney bought Pixar (which was very smart of Disney) the expectation was that making the third film would be put to a halt. Instead, the Pixar talent was activated and a good story was develloped. Hence the realised third Toy Story film. Ownership of 3D models is often overlooked and should be made clear before a project commences.

 

My advice would be not to give the models, but to propose a quote for you to make a new animation or to continue making the previous.

That is a professional standpoint and entirely in your right. If someone wants other people to match, or better your efforts they are free to do so with newly created models. The fact that A:M has a unique model extention works to our advantage in cases like this.

 

I once made an animation of two mouses which were the mascots of a amusementpark. Some advertising agency stated they could do a better job.

They wanted me to hurry over the models and explain how I had made them. I stood firm and kept the models. The advertising agency could not match, let alone better the animation.

Some two years later the amusement park wanted me to make some more animations. That was a pleasent job. And I have a new quote that could be turned into a deal this year.

So; remain professional, but don't just budge because someone is barking at you....

 

 

Cheers,

Arthur

Netherlands

see karakteranimatie.nl for one of the newer mouse animations.

[TheSpleen]

I sell animations/videos

That's what they pay for

My files are not in the deal

[zandoriastudios]

If you just hand them the files, they aren't going to be able to use them anyway...Unless, of course they buy A:M!

They would end up coming back to you for a quote

They might even have to pay you to teach A:M to their guys!

[largento]

Just a random thought...

 

If you itemized your fee to include modeling, rigging, etc., does that then grant them access to those model files?