2012 A:M Forum Collaboration Project

[fae_alba]

That's right folks, we are now, officially getting this old boat underway. You will need to do a few things to get started. First and foremost, you most watch the intro video that robcat put together (many thanks Robert). This video will bring you up to speed on the set, how to use it, and how to render, submit etc. Very well done. View it

 

Then you need to get your very own copy of the project. Here it is: RearWindow_Assets_B.zip

 

So with much anticipation and ballyhoo, I declare this project off to the races.

 

[Edit] Uploaded the project to the forum, instead of ftp...

[robcat2075]

Big thanks to to Paul Forwood and Mark Skodacek for pulling this great set together!

 

It's got all sorts of great locations to stage interesting action, I'm sure we'll see some fine ideas from our A:M users.

 

Download it today and get going!

 

 

 

Not sure how to get started?

 

(just in case you missed the link above)

[robcat2075]

One small correction to my video comments...

 

When I say it's "good practice" to have all the bones of a character keyed at the start of an animation, I'm refering to your conventional control bones that you animate with.

 

Most characters have lots of fan bones and geometry bones that you will never want to key, of course.

 

If you are unfamiliar with the possibilities of Keying and using Keyframe filters you may want to check out the "Keyframing Basics" video, found in the tutorials link in my signature.

 

 

Another clarification to the video instructions:

 

Frame rate

 

After you load your chor and before you start animating) make sure the Project FPS property is set to 24 (circled in red in the screencapture). Check that every time you start a new session.

 

You can make A:M default to 24fps by in the Tools>Options>Units tab (circled in blue)

 

[mouseman]

Deadline?

[Fuchur]

One small correction to my video comments...

 

When I say it's "good practice" to have all the bones of a character keyed at the start of an animation, I'm refering to your conventional control bones that you animate with.

 

Most characters have lots of fan bones and geometry bones that you will never want to key, of course.

 

If you are unfamiliar with the possibilities of Keying and using Keyframe filters you may want to check out the "Keyframing Basics" video, found in the tutorials link in my signature.

 

Just a small question on the set:

Did you include Occlusion to the texture-map? It this some sort of Shadow-Map or something?

If so, did you do it manually or is there a possibility in A:M to do it automatically?

 

See you

*Fuchur*

[thekamps]

I was getting a little leary about this project but the amount of thought, detail, craftsmanship, vision, professionalism, and direction is astonishing. Here's to rave success!

[fae_alba]

Deadline?

 

May 26

[Walter Baker]

WOW! Just the scene and options are awesome. Great work!

[NancyGormezano]

I ran some tests just to see what render times would be for me. I am probably the only one, but I would ONLY consider doing the 480p size, and would prefer mono vision. On my computer, just the set alone (with default settings) takes 1:46 /frame (with soft on), with soft off - takes 1:35. Mono vision takes :58. The larger render size with default settings takes 3:32/frame on my computer.

 

STEREO, almost doubles the render time, and most likely diminishes the number of viewers. Not everybody has red/blue glasses (especially non-animating friends and relatives), nor necessarily if they do, would they go running to go find where they last put them. And I can't say I enjoy watching stereo animation requiring red/blue glasses for any length of time.

 

Stereo, with the current settings, causes my computer to put out warning of HIGH CPU usage by A:M (for just 1 frame), which more than likely will present problems for me with multiple frames. Even with rendering at 480.

 

The stereo looks cute, but the lighting probably doesn't need to be so render costly. I question having shadows for all lights turned on, even with mono vision. Can probably get away with only the SUN and Mainlight having shadows. I also question if the glass needs to be there (transparency is a render hit). Stereo rendering diminishes the beauty of the set, and I expect, would encourage different types of animation, ie things flying into the camera

 

I don't know how to combine the left-right images so that I could compare the differences between stereo and mono vision imagery.

 

To recap:

 

STEREO, all lights have shadows, with glass, 5 pass:

720 large size: 3:32

480 small size: 1:46 (Soft ON)

480 small size: 1:35 (Soft OFF)

 

MONO (Stereo = OFF) , (all 480, soft on)

:59 all lights have shadows, with glass, 5 pass

:41 ONLY SUN, Mainlights have shadows, with glass, 5 pass

:36 ONLY SUN, Mainlights have shadows, NO glass, 5 pass

[MMZ_TimeLord]

All, I will be purchasing more nodes this week and will be offering up my farm FREE for final renders on this project.

 

The requirements for final rendering assistance will be a basic shaded render at 240p with audio preset but without audio and a single frame in final 480p settings.

 

I'm not sure of my capacity yet. I will be doing some tests this week.

 

I too look forward to participating as well. Great set!!!

[robcat2075]

on STEREO....

 

Here's an example of how Youtube handles 3D:

 

 

At the bottom is a red "3D" button.

 

I uploaded a side-by-side render and Youtube used that to let the end-viewer choose any type of colored-glasses, shutter glasses, mirror 3D, no-glasses cross-eye.... almost every viewing method is available.

 

 

And for every method there are various option to fine tune it, like these for red-blue glasses:

 

 

I prefer cross-eye viewing without glasses myself.

 

 

 

And...

 

... no one has to watch it in 3D if they don't want to. Youtube 3D lets you switch the 3D off and watch it "Flat" as if it had been rendered for 2D all along.

 

 

If you have an elderly relative who won't have glasses, can't cross their eyes and won't be able to navigate that 3D control we can also put up a flat version that they can watch as they would any other Youtube video.

 

No one will be left out of being able to watch this video.

 

The set looks great in 2D and the set looks great in 3D and everyone can still animate like they normally would have, but the 3D render is a fun bonus that A:M gives us for VERY little extra effort.

 

It's true that rendering left and right frames will take twice as long, but render times are not very long to begin with and twice as long as not-very-long is still...not very long. We'll give everyone time to render. The lower-res 480p option should make this accessible to everyone.

 

A:M still renders stereo one frame at a time so I'm not sure how that could be taking more power than a regular render.

[NancyGormezano]

A:M still renders stereo one frame at a time so I'm not sure how that could be taking more power than a regular render.

I suspect it might have to do with memory management? with ver 16b 32bit win xp pro.

 

CPU usage appears to spike to 100% and not let go, my hard drive is revvin' full bore. I don't quite understand the warning notice that pops up. I think it's from Norton? complaining about A:M. I'm not sure it happens trying to render right after a fresh A:M start, but eventually it happens from repeated attempts at rendering. I've also had it crash. Not sure what caused it. I think? it might have been when I tried to change the frame number to 0.

 

Don't go by me. I have other reasons why I probably will not participate.

[robcat2075]

Be brave Nancy, do the fun stuff you always do and you can watch it either way you want.

[robcat2075]

Here's an experiment to try, Nancy.

 

Load the 480p preset, turn Stereo OFF, then render. What happens?

[NancyGormezano]

Load the 480p preset, turn Stereo OFF, then render. What happens?

 

That is how I rendered the images as shown in my previous post

 

I only had a problem when I had stereo ON.

[fae_alba]

Load the 480p preset, turn Stereo OFF, then render. What happens?

 

That is how I rendered the images as shown in my previous post

 

I only had a problem when I had stereo ON.

 

why not participate, then have someone else render for you??

[robcat2075]

Everyone, see the clarification about Frame Rate in Post #3

 

This project is a 24fps project.

[NancyGormezano]

why not participate, then have someone else render for you??

 

In theory that would be wonderful, in practice, probably not so much.

 

I think the more appropriate question would be:

 

"why not have someone else render and rerender and rerender and rerender and rerender and rerender and rerender..etc etc, and oh...by the way...they also have a life". (Been there with TWO, SO).

 

Back to the issue of rendering stereo:

 

1) I am still not understanding how and in what software these left/right images are getting combined? AfterEffects?

 

2) 3D destined for Youtube viewing only? If so, is there only one file produced with all possibilities of viewing? OR are there separate files sent to youtube for red/blue, side-side, yellow/puke, etc? What are the resultant output file settings?

 

Educate me, please and walk me thru the post processing steps that will be used to get these renders into 3D file(s), and how/where they will be viewed.

 

If it's just destined for red/blue (or any color channel combo, maybe even interlaced?) for example, couldn't one render from A:M with stereo OFF, (ie don't need left right) and use AfterEffects to generate the resultant 3D file. Cross eye maybe not.

 

It now sounds like this project has transformed into something more suited for demonstrating special effects, and not a "rear window" story line: eg., Balls/bullets/Thoms bouncing off walls, explosions, flying monsters, swords coming straight atcha. Else why do 3D? It's a gimmick that demands uber gimmickyness.

 

you can watch it either way you want

 

It's not a matter of how I want to watch it, it's a matter of how I want my efforts to look. You, others may not care about coloring, texture, line, composition but I do. 3D obscures all that.

 

I am curious and eager to learn about the technical issues for producing 3d. I would be more interested in creating something arty, abstract and visually flowing, that could be viewed in 3D, but not necessarily using this realistic, hard edged, well crafted, set.

 

And just like I transformed the set to my liking and computer capabilities in "bus stop", then I could always do a similar thing here, if I decide/am able to participate. That would get my juices going.

[robcat2075]

why not participate, then have someone else render for you??

 

In theory that would be wonderful, in practice, probably not so much.

 

I think the more appropriate question would be:

 

"why not have someone else render and rerender and rerender and rerender and rerender and rerender and rerender..etc etc, and oh...by the way...they also have a life". (Been there with TWO, SO).

 

I would be willing to render for you even if it had to be done more than once. It sounds like there are other people willing to help too.

 

If the actual Stereo setting is a problem for your computer I can create a dual camera for your chor that lets you render the left and right views separately without A:M knowing you are making stereo.

 

 

 

 

Back to the issue of rendering stereo:

 

1) I am still not understanding how and in what software these left/right images are getting combined? AfterEffects?

 

In the past I have used AE to create various stereo view modes from stereo pairs. Whoever edits this project will arrange one side-by-side version of the movie in some video editing software. That one file is all Youtube needs.

 

Also, A:M can create a basic red-blue anaglyphic render or a crosseye render if you just want quickly test the 3D effect while you are in WIP. I think you can even do this with a shaded render for a fast test.

 

2) 3D destined for Youtube viewing only? If so, is there only one file produced with all possibilities of viewing?

Yes. The Editor creates a movie that has the left and right views side-by-side. It looks like the side-by-side views below. From that Youtube is able to deliver any potential viewing format.

 

Aside from what Youtube does we (meaning the person who edits the project) can also create regular 2D and various 3D formats if we want something to post on the forum.

 

OR are there separate files sent to youtube for red/blue, side-side, yellow/puke, etc? What are the resultant output file settings?

 

No, I only need to upload one side-by-side movie version.

 

I'll note that if you set A:M to render to a MOV instead of an image sequence and choose "free viewing" as the 3D type it will create a a movie with side-by-side images. However, I've directed people to do their final render to an image sequence to make it possible to to fix stereo frame distance problems in post just in case they don't set it quite right at render time.

 

I'll also note that people out there with yellow/puke glasses are exceedingly rare, but if that's all they have I'm glad we can accommodate them.

 

 

 

 

 

Educate me, please and walk me thru the post processing steps that will be used to get these renders into 3D file(s), and how/where they will be viewed.

 

If it's just destined for red/blue (or any color channel combo, maybe even interlaced?) for example, couldn't one render from A:M with stereo OFF, (ie don't need left right) and use AfterEffects to generate the resultant 3D file. Cross eye maybe not.

 

True left and right views are needed to create the various display methods. All 3D formats are a way to deliver distinct left and right views to the left and right eyes.

 

It now sounds like this project has transformed into something more suited for demonstrating special effects, and not a "rear window" story line: eg., Balls/bullets/Thoms bouncing off walls, explosions, flying monsters, swords coming straight atcha. Else why do 3D? It's a gimmick that demands uber gimmickyness.

 

No one has to be gimmicky. My recommendation was animate as you normally would. Alfred Hitchcock made a 3D movie (Dial M for Murder) that works in 3D and 2D. It can be done.

 

you can watch it either way you want

 

It's not a matter of how I want to watch it, it's a matter of how I want my efforts to look. You, others may not care about coloring, texture, line, composition but I do. 3D obscures all that.

 

Here's a comparison of a regular render and the stereo left and right renders. The differences in composition and texture and line are insignificant.

 

 

 

The people who choose to watch it in a cross-eye, interlaced or shutter glasses format will see the exact same colors i chose. If they choose a colored glasses format they will see a different color result than what i authored, but I accept that.

[robcat2075]

I am curious and eager to learn about the technical issues for producing 3d.

 

Perhaps we could use this as an opportunity to explain more about 3D creation. For the moment, I recommend everyone animate and stage their action as they would otherwise. Our 3D goals for this outing don't require any major deviations from normal animating.

 

 

continued...

I would be more interested in creating something arty, abstract and visually flowing, that could be viewed in 3D, but not necessarily using this realistic, hard edged, well crafted, set.

 

And just like I transformed the set to my liking and computer capabilities in "bus stop", then I could always do a similar thing here, if I decide/am able to participate. That would get my juices going.

 

I recall you added quite a bit to the set for your BUS STOP segment but you also made it possible for the very beginning and end to plausibly match the normal look of the set. I presume you could do that again.

 

There were lots of things about the limitations of the BUS STOP project that I wished were different, because i wanted to do something else, but I tried to engage with it for what it was and that is the nature of all group projects. I had to check my "my way or the highway" at the door and worked with the possibilities that were there to do my part.

 

For this year's group project I wanted to do the "Thing" concept with hands coming out of a box, but that's not what we ended up with. So, I will think of something to do that fits our concept of an apartment neighborhood, even though that wasn't my first choice. I think the set we have presents enormous possibilities for interesting contributions.

[thejobe]

Just curious when the deadline is. If there is one.

Would really like to try this one i just don't have the time at the moment.

[fae_alba]

Just curious when the deadline is. If there is one.

Would really like to try this one i just don't have the time at the moment.

 

May 26 as stated above

[mouseman]

I hope everyone is plodding along with this.

 

One thing I've found ... when rendering previews, you cannot see through many of the windows. Specifically, in the main building, any window defined by the group "window glass" cannot be seen through. (I haven't checked the other buildings.) But "door glass" is clear. The difference: in "window glass", the following properties are set:

 

SpecularSize=40

SpecularIntensity=25

 

If I change these to unset, then I can see through the windows again on a test render. I haven't yet tried a final render, but we'll try it with those set for the final render.

[fae_alba]

thanks for the update Chris...

[robcat2075]

I hope everyone is plodding along with this.

 

One thing I've found ... when rendering previews, you cannot see through many of the windows. Specifically, in the main building, any window defined by the group "window glass" cannot be seen through. (I haven't checked the other buildings.) But "door glass" is clear. The difference: in "window glass", the following properties are set:

 

SpecularSize=40

SpecularIntensity=25

 

If I change these to unset, then I can see through the windows again on a test render. I haven't yet tried a final render, but we'll try it with those set for the final render.

 

If you could make a small test PRJ by copying examples of both windows into a new chor side by side, that would make a good AMReport.

[Shelton]

Sneak peak of things to come for Chris' and mine Rear Window Project

[robcat2075]

looks exciting!

[itsjustme]

Makes me very curious, Steve! I'm looking forward to seeing the finished product.

[steve392]

Thats looking good Steve ,nice rener

[markw]

I've never worked with the stereo setting before and I'm having difficulty in deciding where to set the frame distance thing.

I'm zooming in from the wide angle at the beginning toward the back of the set, some stuff happens there then its to the centre of the set more or less, for some more stuff to happen. After that the camera doesn't move much.

So, in order, what looks closest when viewed through the camera would be;

Front corner of the penthouse, then the back corner of the penthouse and then about the center of the picnic table.

Any suggestions?

[robcat2075]

I've never worked with the stereo setting before and I'm having difficulty in deciding where to set the frame distance thing.

I'm zooming in from the wide angle at the beginning toward the back of the set, some stuff happens there then its to the centre of the set more or less, for some more stuff to happen. After that the camera doesn't move much.

So, in order, what looks closest when viewed through the camera would be;

Front corner of the penthouse, then the back corner of the penthouse and then about the center of the picnic table.

Any suggestions?

 

We could break it into two shots, divided by a reverse angle shot of the observer putting the binoculars up to his eyes.

 

?

[markw]

I've never worked with the stereo setting before and I'm having difficulty in deciding where to set the frame distance thing.

I'm zooming in from the wide angle at the beginning toward the back of the set, some stuff happens there then its to the centre of the set more or less, for some more stuff to happen. After that the camera doesn't move much.

So, in order, what looks closest when viewed through the camera would be;

Front corner of the penthouse, then the back corner of the penthouse and then about the center of the picnic table.

Any suggestions?

 

We could break it into two shots, divided by a reverse angle shot of the observer putting the binoculars up to his eyes.

 

?

Humm… Well I would really prefer to keep it all as one shot if at all possible.

I'v done the camera moves as though they are hand held and was anticipating having the binocular mask applied to it from the very beginning which would really help sell the effect.

Do you still have the sample .cho I sent you when I had problems with the rig in Niki?

Thats still more or less how the camera pans and zooms or I could send you the camera moves as an .act file.

[mouseman]

Things on our end are looking good and progressing, although we're a bit behind. We were slowed down by learning curves on rigging and cloth (thanks to Mark and everyone else for their help!), but those issues are pretty well settled now. I think we're probably going to need a couple of weeks on top of the deadline. Can we still fit into the assembly process timeline?

[robcat2075]

Humm… Well I would really prefer to keep it all as one shot if at all possible...

 

You could experiment with keyframing the stereo frame distance as the camera zooms in. Just see that it is in front of what ever the closest visible object int the frame is.

 

I'm not sure I've seen a stereo zoom before. It probably wasn't technically possible in old movies and zooms, in general, have fallen out of fashion in modern movies. But we're making a semi-old movie so give it a try!

[robcat2075]

I think we're probably going to need a couple of weeks on top of the deadline. Can we still fit into the assembly process timeline?

 

I'm not close to being done either, but I was waiting for someone else to ask first. I hereby move that we extend the deadline by a month!

 

How about it, Paul?

[fae_alba]

I think we're probably going to need a couple of weeks on top of the deadline. Can we still fit into the assembly process timeline?

 

I'm not close to being done either, but I was waiting for someone else to ask first. I hereby move that we extend the deadline by a month!

 

How about it, Paul?

 

I've already gotten the sense that the deadline was going to slip...too many great things being worked on for it not to. I myself am in the final stages of preparation of a tech conference I'm attending in Orlando the first week of June (anyone nearby look me up at the Gaylord Palms!), so all of me attentions has been spent on preparing an hour long tech presentation. After I get back from that we'll do a status check on where everybody else on their projects and what the next "real" deadline will be.

 

Keep working folks, and fear not the train won't leave the station without you (yet!).

[Kamikaze]

Damn...I missed the boat ?....(could the deadline be 2013? ,if Maya doesn't get us in Dec...smile)....I would have like to give this a try ...and BTW .....I learned a lot of great general info from the video ..... so thanks a bunch just for that.!!!

 

Mike

[robcat2075]

Damn...I missed the boat ?

 

The new deadline is September 30th.

[Kamikaze]

Sept 30th. cool....Does camera shot need to be static........can one pan from sky to courtyard ...and if so how difficult would it be to set the 3d frame during transition?

[robcat2075]

Sept 30th. cool....Does camera shot need to be static........can one pan from sky to courtyard ...and if so how difficult would it be to set the 3d frame during transition?

 

You can point the camera anywhere. There are directions on 3D frame distance in the video. I recommend testing novel ideas in advance.

[fae_alba]

Damn...I missed the boat ?....(could the deadline be 2013? ,if Maya doesn't get us in Dec...smile)....I would have like to give this a try ...and BTW .....I learned a lot of great general info from the video ..... so thanks a bunch just for that.!!!

 

Mike

 

you've got plenty of time! get to it.

[Kamikaze]

Project leaders...

 

I seem to have a problem with setting key frames @ 2...but only on a somewhat intense model (my c 130 from years ago.......) don't want to give away what I am attempting to do but, the c130 doesn't seem to want keyframing and I can't even turn it's active off at 0 and 1.......... and damn if I can't get my engine smoke sprite to work when it's on a path..........

 

I'll keep chugging to see if I can fig it out.......

 

Mike

[robcat2075]

Without knowing more I will guess something is being misapplied.

 

 

I seem to have a problem with setting key frames @ 2

 

What does that mean?

[Kamikaze]

Without knowing more I will guess something is being misapplied.

 

 

I seem to have a problem with setting key frames @ 2

 

What does that mean?

 

Sometimes I wish I knew what I mean ....... Are we suppose to keyframe any object we put into the chor at frame 2? or have I misunderstood something (would not be new to me) I have a backup plan if I cant get my eng sprite smoke to work so it's not a scene killer.......

 

anyway..off to bed ....another long night at work..brain is mush..

 

Mike

[robcat2075]

You still have ten weeks to jump in and do yourself s segment for "Rear Window"! Don't miss out!

 

See the top of this thread for instructions and downloads.