Getting back into A:M Modelling

[elliotclem1]

Hi there,

 

I've decided to give A:M anouther go after several years of it sitting on my self. I used to love animating but could never understand how modelling worked in the program.

 

I completed most of the tutorials in the A:M book (Giraffe,plane etc) but always hit the same problems when modelling. I remember now this is why I left A:M for such a long time. However such great work was being completed in the community.

The concept I could never understand has how to fill in the space between control points as it always seemed hit and miss to me. See the quick test model I made below. Why don't the open control points 'Fill' to make it gray. Is there a button I need to press?

 

Could someone help me?

 

 

 

Is there any tutorials that would help me grasp this concept be it free or priced.

[largento]

There are some great ones out there! For a start, check out my comic-book-style basic tutorial pages here. They cover some of the basics of modeling in A:M including continuity and the difference between a patch and a hole.

[elliotclem1]

There are some great ones out there! For a start, check out my comic-book-style basic tutorial pages here. They cover some of the basics of modeling in A:M including continuity and the difference between a patch and a hole.

 

Thats very helpful. So only the extrude mode can make a patch I Get It (y) thanks

 

Great guide btw love the layout

[Gorf]

From memory (I'm returning to A:M too) you can't have a patch with anything other than 3, 4 or 5 control points.

 

With five, you have to select the CPs & tell A:M that it's a patch using the five-point-patch button.

 

You need at least two splines to make a patch. Four splines meeting at four CPs make patches that are the least likely to crease.

 

Hope I've got it right.

[Fuchur]

Do it like this...

And no, extruding is not the only way to create a surface. You should only use it in certain situations when the continuity of the splines is garantied.

 

The short-version:

1.) Patches must be created from 3, 4 or 5-CPs.

2.) Patches must contain of at least 2 splines, which are connected.

3.) 5-Point-Patches have to be created by selecting 5 CPs (see the image how they should be placed) and clicking on the Make 5-Point-Patch-Button (see the image.)

 

*Fuchur*

[elliotclem1]

Ok thanks for your help but why dont the 3 and 4 points make a patch. See picture:

 

 

[DJBREIT]

If you only use one spline to make three or four CP patch the program wont close it as a patch. This is done so you can make a cylinders or openings.

[largento]

Elliot, a continuous spline that attaches back to itself is a hole. In order for a patch to occur, at least two splines must be involved. The extruding example in the square was a short cut. When I extruded the spline, it made new splines so that I ended up with four splines intersecting instead of one spline.

 

Draw splines and have them intersect, say three splines that where they intersect draws a triangle. That will form a 3-point patch. See the "long" way in the square tutorial to see what a 4-point patch really looks like.

[Fuchur]

Have a look at the rules here again:

 

"The short-version:

1.) Patches must be created from 3, 4 or 5-CPs.

2.) Patches must contain of at least 2 splines, which are connected.

3.) 5-Point-Patches have to be created by selecting 5 CPs (see the image how they should be placed) and clicking on the Make 5-Point-Patch-Button (see the image.)"

 

They dont form a patch because rule 2 isn't fullfilled. They are created from only one spline.

 

*Fuchur*

[elliotclem1]

Thanks guys for your help but it just doesnt make sense to me. When I try to start making a model theres always a hole and I dont understand how to patch it.

 

See the picture of a cube i tryed to make. Why isnt there a patch?

 

[DJBREIT]

Have a look at the rules here again:

 

"The short-version:

1.) Patches must be created from 3, 4 or 5-CPs.

2.) Patches must contain of at least 2 splines, which are connected.

3.) 5-Point-Patches have to be created by selecting 5 CPs (see the image how they should be placed) and clicking on the Make 5-Point-Patch-Button (see the image.)"

 

They dont form a patch because rule 2 isn't fullfilled. They are created from only one spline.

 

*Fuchur*

 

The one exeption is a 5-point patch can be one spline since it has an option to turn it into a patch or leave it as is.

[elliotclem1]

Have a look at the rules here again:

 

"The short-version:

1.) Patches must be created from 3, 4 or 5-CPs.

2.) Patches must contain of at least 2 splines, which are connected.

3.) 5-Point-Patches have to be created by selecting 5 CPs (see the image how they should be placed) and clicking on the Make 5-Point-Patch-Button (see the image.)"

 

They dont form a patch because rule 2 isn't fullfilled. They are created from only one spline.

 

*Fuchur*

 

The one exeption is a 5-point patch can be one spline since it has an option to turn it into a patch or leave it as is.

 

Why not implement a button to make any amount of cps a patch instead of just five?? Funny number

[largento]

Elliot, you've got to think of the splines and their continuity. Like I said before, one spline making a ring is a hole.

 

In order to get patches, you need to use splines that intersect, like this:

 

 

5-Point patches are a special consideration. 3 and 4 point patches occur naturally. 5-points were created to aid in modeling.

[DJBREIT]

The five-point patch was added to solve a lot of problems in modeling.

 

I think there is only one spot where a six point patch would be useful but all others can be fix with 3/4/5 patches.

 

Even the 5-point patch has its problem. You run across them as you get into complex model. And learn how to avoid them.

 

Tring to cover all number of cp groups would start to cause the computer to slow down and have some undesirable effects. So to keep it simple they stoped at 5-CP

[robcat2075]

Why not implement a button to make any amount of cps a patch instead of just five?? Funny number

 

A patch is like a surface stretched between *two* pairs of rails like in largento's right-side drawing. That's the situation where the math can be made to work predictably and quickly.

 

A three point patch is really like a four point patch where two opposite rails happen to converge at the same point.

 

Five point patches are a special Hash-only phenomenon. NURBS can't do it. It was regarded as impossible, sort of like finding a new whole number between 1 and 2 is impossible. Martin actually got written up in a math journal for inventing the thing. A five point patch is really subdivided into four-point patches and a center "CP" is manufactured out of nowhere to hold it together.

 

I suppose they could make any number of sides subdivide themselves, but there is no mesh situation that requires a more than 5 sided patch and you're better off subdividing your n-sided shape yourself so you control where the curves are.

[Hutch]

Thanks guys for your help but it just doesnt make sense to me. When I try to start making a model theres always a hole and I dont understand how to patch it.

 

See the picture of a cube i tryed to make. Why isnt there a patch?

 

How did you make this? It must be one spline that makes each open end. A spline that attaches back on itself will not make a patch.

[HomeSlice]

You can close the ends of your box a couple of ways. The easiest way is to create a new spline from one corner to the opposite corner - be sure you attach the CPs in the new spline to the CPs in the existing square.

Another way is to 1) select all the CPs in the spline ring that defines the open end of the box 2) switch to side view 3)hit the Extrude button 4)scale and translate to newly created CPs until the hole is no longer visible.

Another way is to insert a CP halfway up each of the vertical splines in your picture. Then connect the CPs with a new spline.

[thejobe]

this is my 2 way on to how to make a cube at least

hope it helps someone

[brainmuffin]

Elliot:

 

Take a look here:

 

http://www.alienlogo.com/tincan/

 

Specifically the Basic Splinesmanship I & II.

 

It's everything you need to know about how splines work.

 

 

Jobe, you're cubes have internal patches.

[elliotclem1]

Elliot, you've got to think of the splines and their continuity. Like I said before, one spline making a ring is a hole.

 

In order to get patches, you need to use splines that intersect, like this:

 

 

5-Point patches are a special consideration. 3 and 4 point patches occur naturally. 5-points were created to aid in modelling.

 

Thanks for your help but when I try to replicate your model I still don't get a patch:

 

 

What am I doing wrong?

[MJL]

Where the splines intersect, are the CP's "welded" together, or are they just next to each other?

 

In the view from the front(Num Pad 2), it looks like these CP's are connected. but when viewed from the top (Num Pad 5) you can see that they are not actually "welded" together. therefore they will not make a patch.

[NancyGormezano]

Thanks for your help but when I try to replicate your model I still don't get a patch:

 

What am I doing wrong?

 

Are you viewing in "shaded" or "shaded & wireframe mode"? (shortcuts: 9, 0 respectively)

 

Are you sure that the cps are attached to the intersecting splines?

[elliotclem1]

Yes they are connected I will send you the A:M project file in a min

[elliotclem1]

There I cant understand it

whats_going_on.prj

[MJL]

That's a stumper for me. I downloaded your project and made a patch. I don't know why yours doesn't render.

 

(I moved your splines around a bit to make sure the CP's were attached.)

[Hutch]

What you have is a four point point spline circle with corners peaked and four other splines attached at the corner. Select a cp and press the comma key. Yours do not make straight lines. Instead, yours are all 'L' shaped.

[MJL]

Good call, Hutch. (Slaps self on forehead)

[largento]

I'm starting to think you're pulling our legs here. :-)

 

Okay, your example is one spline ring with additional splines coming out of that one. Not sure why this isn't getting across, but a single spline ring makes a *hole* NOT a patch.

 

In Myron's example, there are four splines. Two vertical and two horizontal. They are attached at the four CPs, forming a patch. Try this: Make a vertical spline with four CPs. One at each end and two in the center. Copy and paste it and move it over to the side, so that you have two identical vertical splines.

 

Now, click the "a" button to begin making a new horizontal spine and then click on the CPs of the two vertical splines as you draw your horizontal spline. Repeat this for the second horizontal spline.

[brainmuffin]

You made a hole.

 

If I click on one of the center CPs and hit , to select the spline, I get this:

 

 

 

If I click one of the outer points and hit , I get this:

 

 

 

Which means that you've still made the center, where you're expecting a patch to be, out of a single spline.

 

So if I unpeak all the points, I get this:

 

 

I still have to say look at the basic splinesmanship tutorials here:

 

http://www.alienlogo.com/tincan/

 

It's all explained there clear as day. These tutorials might be ten years old, but they still apply, and they've taught many of us how to work with splines.

[Gerry]

Hey brainmuffin, great link, thanks for posting! Hey, new guy, seriously, check out these tutorials instead of banging your head against the wall. Let us know when you've got it. It's simpler than you're making it out to be.

[elliotclem1]

What you have is a four point point spline circle with corners peaked and four other splines attached at the corner. Select a cp and press the comma key. Yours do not make straight lines. Instead, yours are all 'L' shaped.

 

I see now thanks so much. Thanks for all your time and help, ill look at those spline tutorials to further embed my understanding.

 

Thanks again for being patient hopefully I'll beable to make some nice models now

[Gerry]

Stick around, when you have problems bring them here.

[elliotclem1]

Elliot:

 

Take a look here:

 

http://www.alienlogo.com/tincan/

 

Specifically the Basic Splinesmanship I & II.

 

It's everything you need to know about how splines work.

 

 

Jobe, you're cubes have internal patches.

 

 

I've seen this website quoted around these forums a few times and was always put off by its uninviting layout of just plain text with a few images.

I finally decided to make myself read it and complete the exercise. I must say its helped clear loads of things up, so helpful.

I never knew you could select a spline with the "," . I can now patch the end of shapes =)

Extremely helpful. Shame he never finished the tutorial and I doubt it ever will be looking at the date.

 

Thanks Guys

[elliotclem1]

I thought I'd try out my newly learnt skills. I started to create a very rough character to understand more about how patch's work and how to attach different body parts together. I've attached the project file have a laugh LOL.

 

Are they any video tutorials worth buying just for modelling. I found the SIGGRAPH 99 making a female figure rather useful but with the poor quality its kinda hard to follow

myfirst_model.prj

[largento]

By far, my favorite tutorials for character modeling are Barry Zundel's which can be purchased here.

[MJL]

I just modeled the body for my first character using Alonzo's Tutorials located HERE. Click on the Page 1 link.

 

They are simple, basic and easy to follow. May seem boring to those who like video tutes, but I liked the fact that they stood still long enough for me to study them.

[NancyGormezano]

My favorite character modeling tutorial is the Marvelous Malo Modeling Method

 

Cleared up many mysteries for me - sometimes the language is a lttle difficult (I keep saying I'll try to do a different translation - but - alas - not sure I could do it justice) - but the concepts/pictures/diagrams/steps are fabulously presented

[brainmuffin]

WOW! Malo's tutorial is awesome!

[elliotclem1]

By far, my favorite tutorials for character modeling are Barry Zundel's which can be purchased here.

 

These seem great just what I'm looking for.

Is there anyway of contacting him before I buy them as I can't find an email address anywhere.

[largento]

I notice on his storefront, there is a link on the left side of the screen to "Send this user a message." He used to post on these boards, but I don't remember what his screen name was.

 

I contacted Barry before I bought them (they were on DVD then) and he was very helpful.

[elliotclem1]

I notice on his storefront, there is a link on the left side of the screen to "Send this user a message." He used to post on these boards, but I don't remember what his screen name was.

 

I contacted Barry before I bought them (they were on DVD then) and he was very helpful.

 

Thanks,, Looks like ill have to make a lulu account then *sigh*

[elliotclem1]

Im going though alonsos tutorial's (http://www.hash.com/amtutes/Bootcamp/index.html) and am having trouble understanding what he means.

 

I'm currently on the second page on the first instruction (http://www.hash.com/amtutes/Bootcamp/two.html) and can't understand what he is getting at.

 

I have attached my project file of what I think he means

Character.prj

[elliotclem1]

Really need some help on this one

[HomeSlice]

OK, the first instruction on the second page says:

 

21. Click on that middle spline

and hit Y

Drag 1 of the dangling cp's onto the other and RIGHT CLICK to meld them,

drag the melded cp over that new middle spline cp and RIGHT CLICK to meld that one also.

To close that lathe hole, click on 1 of the looping splines (A) hit K to break it.

Click on the other looping spline ( so it highlights towards the center,

hit DELETE to delete it (you can't break it, when you've worked with splines more you'll have a feeling for why)

Meld the 2 center cp's,

then meld the side one in.

 

Which part are you not clear about? We can help more if we know exactly what you are having trouble understanding.

[elliotclem1]

I think I have completed the first half of those instructions correctly but its just the second half of them i dont understand:

 

To close that lathe hole, click on 1 of the looping splines (A) hit K to break it.

Click on the other looping spline (cool.gif so it highlights towards the center,

hit DELETE to delete it (you can't break it, when you've worked with splines more you'll have a feeling for why)

Meld the 2 center cp's,

then meld the side one in.

 

[HomeSlice]

I have not done those tutorials, but it looks like he wants you to turn those two large 5 point patches into 4 point patches.

See that little semi-circle on the left edge of the model?

See the three splines connecting to it?

Two of the splines would form a straight line if you connected them.

Connect those two splines.

Delete the semi-circle.

Select the long spline which was formed when you connected the two splines I mentioned above.

Hit the [Y] key to create a control point on the spline.

Now connect the spline that isn't connected to anything to the new control point.

I *think* that's what the tutorial wants you to do. But again, I'm not 100% sure ...

[MJL]

Follow these 5 steps and you will accomplish what Holmes is telling you.

[Hutch]

I have never seen these tutorials but if what MJL's picture shows is what is intended, it seems like there are more steps than necessary. I would just select any cp on the half circle, press the comma key to select the spline and delete it. Then attach the cp's.

[a.quaihoi]

hmmm . . . I'm not being rude here fellas but after reading all the posts, I think you are giving advice to a novice using overly complex examples, I think that you would explain the concept of a patch quite simply by relating it to an actual physical examples for instance :

 

" Say you are going to make a paper maché sculpture, you have made a " wireframe " of a head out of cut up pieces of coat hangers ( You mums gonna kill you when she finds out ! ! ) The patches are like square pieces of paper that you will stick in between the wire frame head to make the surface of your paper maché model " You may only use square or rectangular pieces of paper for each piece of the surface of your model, but you can also use pentagonal piece of paper sparingly only when necessary "

 

Thus you communicate the understanding of working with AM - with wireframes & patches without using AM software jargon - this would overwhelm the person asking the question if they have not used the program for a while or at all.

 

Remember how you learned a 3D program from scratch and retrace the steps to a novice. Me, I had to make paper models or geometric shapes before I was allowed to touch a computer, to get my head around the concept and fundamentals of the 3rd dimension, X,Y,Z co-ordinates, meshes and surfaces --> which was in direct relation to the paper models we were made to make at the start in the fundamental stages, projection drawings / isometric design ( Architectural / Engineering stuff ).

 

I remember a program called " Ray Dream Studio " that showed you a basic isometric grid and made is very easy to grasp this as well as how to lathe and extrude, maybe AM should implement such a grid design . . . hmmmmm . . . .

[a.quaihoi]

Hi there,

 

I've decided to give A:M anouther go after several years of it sitting on my self. I used to love animating but could never understand how modelling worked in the program.

 

I completed most of the tutorials in the A:M book (Giraffe,plane etc) but always hit the same problems when modelling. I remember now this is why I left A:M for such a long time. However such great work was being completed in the community.

The concept I could never understand has how to fill in the space between control points as it always seemed hit and miss to me. See the quick test model I made below. Why don't the open control points 'Fill' to make it gray. Is there a button I need to press?

 

Could someone help me?

 

 

 

Is there any tutorials that would help me grasp this concept be it free or priced.

 

 

Watch the Jeff Cantin tutorial on the Hash Video Gallery - it's pretty good - link here : http://amfilms.hash.com/video/117/Jeff-Can...IGGRAPH--99--LA