TAR of Zandoria, Episode 1 Finished!

[zandoriastudios]

Finally finished! I've been working on this forever, so it feels great to finally have something to share

http://www.youtube.com/embed/vd_ekaOdDWg

 

I hope that you like it, and that you share it with your friends and followers so that TAR of Zandoria can find some fans!

Edited October 6 by robcat2075
Video Thumbnail added

[largento]

I'm excited to see your dream finally realized, Will!

 

I think that's why many of us come to Animation:Master.

 

And it really came out great!

 

Bravo!

[robcat2075]

I'm glad you got this going, Will! This is a strong opener.

[ludo_si]

great job and really impressive. there will be a Continuation(Suite)

[Rodney]

Nicely executed.

I sure wouldn't want to be the one to mess with that hippo.

 

Congrats on getting this completed!

[itsjustme]

Great stuff, Will!

[zandoriastudios]

Thanks! It feels like I just birthed a baby! But it feels great to have momentum and to see it finally on screen

[Fuchur]

great love it! keep it going i am curious what he will be up to next .

great love it! keep it going i am curious what he will be up to next .

[largento]

Yeah, that's a nice tease, having him approaching that settlement.

 

The music was really great, too. It adds to the sense of mystery.

 

I'm not sure how to get the word out (I struggle with that on my own stuff), but the word needs to get out!

[zandoriastudios]

I think he is going to stop at the waterhole for a big mug of fruit punch!

[detbear]

Will.

 

Great job. I especially like the intro. It has a "The Good, The Bad and The Ugly" feel to it. Enjoyed watching it very much.

 

William

[zandoriastudios]

Thanks! I am really pleased with how it turned out. Everyone that I've shown it to seems to like it, and gets the story and everything. The only exception that I've had is on CGTalk, where the discussion is all a fairly uninformed critique (or that's how it seems to me). I think the stylistic choices "work"....

I have tried to not get bogged down over-massaging the animation (there are a couple of places in the fight where I could have kept tweaking it forever)....the jittery cloth simulation led me to a blustery wind, that made it work out. I knew that I had to make choices that are not the "Hollywood" way, but I think that there is a valid space for what I'm doing.

[largento]

Unfortunately, I find most criticism online ignores all that is good about what you've done and focuses only on what they perceive to be wrong ...which is often subjective or just because they have been trained to see something one way.

 

 

I do my best to avoid criticism. :-)

 

No matter how much value they believe their opinion has, I'm the only person who has thought every thought, made every decision frame-to-frame through the whole piece. They may *think* they know what's wrong with a piece, but only *I* know every tiny flaw and imperfection by heart and I know that I made the decision to let them go because I'm not an entire army of people in a studio and I want to finish the project before I grow old. :-)

 

 

We all have our own style, aesthetic and rhythm. Stay true to yours.

[Rodney]

Feedback is an interesting thing... it'd be nice if we knew better when to give it and when to hold it in reserve.

I think it is safe to say that Will knows those areas that could use work.

 

The other side of feedback of course is to actually demonstrate how something can be improved... and correct me if I'm wrong here (I'd be glad to be wrong)... you aren't likely to get that level of feedback from folks over at CGTalk. I think folks are more likely to get that here (in the A:M Forum) although we need to help folks break out of the shackles of disdaining feedback first. For those that desire to grow a fan-base... you need those that follow you to voice their opinion. Just because an opinion is shared doesn't mean you have to agree with it or implement it in your work. In fact, in cases of plot and story it might be best to avoid suggestions of those types altogether. In other words, use that type of feedback as a barometer to gauge whether a story is too predictable.

 

But... here's the secret to giving and/or not giving feedback: If the individual asks for feedback then it can be assumed they desire feedback, otherwise they are simply sharing their work with you.

Will's posting of this episode of Tar falls into this latter category because he didn't solicit feedback. Lack of such a statement can be construed as a signal to everyone to focus on the entertainment value... to sit back and just enjoy the show. Was it entertaining? Did you like it? To which I can honestly respond to Will.... "It was too short!" and "I want to see more."

 

With this in mind I could go back and watch episode one with an eye for feedback that focuses on the characters, the story... where I think/hope Will might be taking us on this journey. The feedback wouldn't address technical issues, suggest tweaks to animation or suggest alternatives to artistic choices. I might then be inclined to say,

 

"I love those hyenas. I wish they would have had more screen time" and "I want to see more of those guys!" and "I thought they might be nastier." (to which we hope Will might answer, "Hehe, there is a very good chance you'll see more of them in a future episode... but not those particular ones 'cause they are vulture meat." and/or "You haven't seen the last of them."

To which I'd respond, "Right on!". And then I might make a mental note that we didn't see all of those guys actually die. Hmmmm....

 

And then I might add, "What else have you got up your sleeve?"

"What other characters from the world of Tar will appear in the future?"

And perhaps most importantly, "How long do we have to wait until the next episode?"

[Fuchur]

I had a look over there... I do not think he is very wrong with what he is telling you (with the exception of the shield / helmet-thingy... it is well modelled and I think it is working okay, since it is meant to be a surprise that his helmet is also a shield... it could use a little movement, but I do not think it absolutely has to have that... (this is more of a design decission to me... is is a static helmet because it just fits that well or is it a slippy one...)

But it does not mean that he is right neighter... it is just his opinion.

 

He may have a point on some of the movments (when the attackers talk to eachother... the body is not moving when the arm does, etc.), but it does not bother me much...

And one thing that is a little odd is, that the attackers seem to wait for their execution after they jumped, etc. (maybe an started attackmovement could work wonders here) but again... this is all just little stuff and I am sure I would have made many (and other) little things much worse than you did here .

 

What I think is working is the storyline and how it is presented. There are things which would have been done in another way by me, but I think your way of doing it works well too, but in the end this is the most important part and you did that one very well .

 

And it was genious to cover the jumpiness of the cloth simulation as wind. It just works .

 

In the end I think his critics are not too harsh or unrespectful but his opinion and something that just is part of the process. It does not mean, that the animation was bad at all... it means he sees great potential... otherwise he would not have bothered with telling you. Do not be upset about it. Learn from it... you do not need to do it like he wants you to do it, but it is never a mistake to see if he is right on one or two things with what he is telling you. And if you decide he is not: Fine too. In the end it is your animation and you decide how it should look.

 

See you

*Fuchur*

 

PS: Again: I liked it. You did something very well there and I do not think I could have done it as well and many others never ever could come close. The story is told nicely (I do not see any trouble with the way you are telling it... it could have been done differently, but I do not think it would be better.. it just would be different...)

 

I am curious about what will happen next and that is what it is all about and the best compliment an audience can give you .

[largento]

I think it's important to take into account that there's work and there's art.

 

If you're painting a house for somebody, then feedback is key. You need to know what the client wants and what is feasible and how many men it will take and what the timeline is and will the color fade and on and on.

 

If you're creating a painting, then it's all about you and the canvas.

 

Like Will described it, it's like birthing a baby. It's helpful to offer advice on changing diapers or how to hold the baby, but it isn't helpful to say that the baby is ugly. :-)

 

In person, or to a degree in safer environments like this forum, most people are mindful of that, but in most cases on the web, with anonymity firmly in place, people completely ignore all the positives and just focus on every minute flaw they can find.

 

The thing is, it's done! It's birthed! Warts and all, when the artist puts down his brush, this is what he created.

 

I like some artist's work and I don't like some other artist's work. Neither are right or wrong. Animation is mostly viewed as the product of a factory, but when the animation is the vision and labor of an individual, it is going to have that individual's stamp on it. That's what I thought when the guy on CGTalk pointed you to a film clip. Like Will points out, that's how that film did it, there's no reason why Will's film should.

 

We have been trained to see rapid cuts and closeups of action that are almost too quick to register what is being done, but that's a choice and a style. Doing it because that's what everyone else is doing isn't really a style or a choice.

[NancyGormezano]

I also went to CGtalk to view the thread. I noticed the question that you posed to the only fellow who offered a critique:

 

"Was the story and the twist not clear?" For me, I have to say:

 

What twist? Obviously that was not clear to me.

 

What story? However, in this episode, there was enough presented that I don't yet know the story (as presented so far), but it made me want to know more. All I know from this clip is HyenaGuys hate HippoGuys and they all like to fight and kill each other. I'd want to know why.

 

I find your visual style very powerful & more engaging than most "comic book" styles. Compositions, cinematography is very dramatic as well, and of course, the soundtrack is top-notch outstanding. Backgrounds are terrific.

 

The animation could be improved, but that's not a problem for me. I can understand, given the violent game playing culture that is most likely your audience, the action pace was not as fast, bloody, abrupt as that achieved by today's video games, and it may be what your audience may have come to expect. They have come to expect phenomenal special effects as well. They will cringe at anything less than.

 

The voice acting & sound quality of the voice tracks (only) needs some improvement. It felt like a foreign movie that was dubbed, rather than believably coming from the characters. Perhaps that is not a problem with your audience? I haven't analyzed why it felt dubbed: Maybe it needs a few more better mouth shapes, synced a bit differently? or camera angles that disguise the fact? Maybe it's not important.

 

More disturbingly, I have watched over and over and I just can't understand the words of the hyena in the last shot when he is on the ground? What did he say? Is it not important? It is for me.

 

As for feedback, yes stick to your style, ignore critiques that don't resonate. I am not your target audience.

 

But for anyone who hopes to make money off their art: I will quote Largento:

 

If you're painting a house for somebody, then feedback is key. You need to know what the client wants and what is feasible

 

I am gathering you are painting your animation/story to make money. Listen to your targeted audience. And know who they are.

[Rodney]

Well said Nancy.

 

I have watched over and over and I just can't understand the words of the hynea in the last shot when he is on the ground? What did he say? Is it not important? It is for me.

 

 

I missed what he said the first time through so it's good that you identify that in your feedback. After several views I'd forgotten I had initially missed the big payoff.*

His dialogue is essential in revealing the twist in the story you missed, so that certainly explains why you missed it.

So, yes, it was very important.

 

 

*I also have a vague memory of reading a storyboard or script of the short which might have aided my understanding.

Not sure if I am just imagining that.

[zandoriastudios]

Great feedback everybody! I don't mind critique, jut the CGTalk stuff was feeling like he wanted to teach me basic cinematography or something--which might be helpful, except like Mark said:I already see the flaws...

I think I could have just cut to the first sword stroke on the Sheild( maybe a half-second) and the pacing would have been improved there...

 

Nancy,

The leader says "The wizard said he was dangerous...wait until he gets to the shadow of the cliff, then fire"

The ninja says, " he doesn't look dangerous--see the vultures? They've got him marked for death..."

 

Later the same ninja says, "oh...They follow him"

 

That was the twist--the vultures follow TAR because he is a killing machine! He IS dangerous--and the eating is good which is why the vultures follow him. The first shot makes it seem like Tar is marked for death, with vultures circling overhead...

The line that "the wizard said..." Will be important later--they are hired assassins waiting in ambush for Tar. I wanted to communicate that without very many words.

 

Rodney,

the ninja will be back--with an eye patch, and a little more respect for a dangerous foe

[fae_alba]

All I've got to say, you got it done. The next episode will be better (in your eyes), and the next one after that even better. Like Mark, you sir have raised the bar for the rest of us A:Mers. I'm not one to offer critique, since my animation talents are not up to snuff in my own opinion, so whatever I said just simply wouldn't hold water. As for other's opinions let me shre the advice that I always gave my daughters as they were growing up: "Don't respect the advice of those you don't respect." If you value the individual offering up a critique, well then listen to them and learn. If not, take it with a grain of salt and move on. As a famous meerkat and warthog once said, "Hakuna matata"!

 

Bask in the glory of a job well done, and be God get busy on the next one!

[ernesttx]

Congrats, Will. Yes, it does feel good to get the first one out. Your next episodes will go smoother, as well. The first hurdle is always the "Can I do it?" moment. With one out the door, you can see where you need to focus more attention and what you can leave alone.

[Zaryin]

TAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR!!!!

 

Congratulations on getting this out there, Will. When I fist saw the 3d model of Tar those many years ago it was a real inspiration to me. If it wasn't for guys like you, I wouldn't still be trying to make things myself. Hopefully, one day, I can come up with an original idea that I can make something of, and share with everyone.

 

I love Tar. Congrats again.

[Rodney]

I've been thinking about how the Salt video referenced by CGIPadawan over at CGSociety applies and for the most part (as Will suggests in his response) it doesn't.

There is one place where it does and that is in the pivotal shot that delivers the big twist at the end.

Hopefully I can explain this adequately so it makes sense.

 

The flow of the camera and cuts all work well up to the point where the last hyena is displayed and delivers his line. I'll track this because I don't think it particularly spoils the story for anyone who hasn't yet watched (but seriously... if you are reading this and you haven't watched the video yet... go watch it!!!):

 

Intro

- From the map camera descends on Tar (nicely executed BTW)

- Tar walks

- Cut to Hyenas

- Back to Tar and Entry into the fray

- Hyenas attack

- Tar does his thing

- Hyenas hit the ground

- Tar moves on

- Finale

 

It is the setup of the finale that doesn't match with regard to camera movement in that if we try to match the position of the hyena with one that hits the ground in the earlier shot none of them are in a similar position. This plants a tiny seed of confusion in the brain because the hyena is very obviously one of those hyenas and yet his placement onscreen suggests he isn't.

 

There are several things that could 'fix' this continuity 1) a moving camera during the fight scene that moves around the scene until the angle matches that of where the hyena is oriented on the ground. The second approach is less ideal in that it would be to flip the shot left to right which would more accurately align the shot to match the hyena that got his feet swept out from underneath him followed by a hit to the face with a massive club. Note that I only assume that hyena is the same one that delivers the final dialogue at the end.

 

At any rate... that seems to be the aspect of the dissection of the move Salt that specifically applies to 'Marked for Death'.

If CGIPadawan's primary suggestion is that building up to and delivery of that critical final line of dialogue isn't crystal clear then that is a relevant critique.

The problem being that he doesn't actually say that in his critique. If the crit was meant to suggest the short needed to be clearer and yet the feedback itself isn't clear, the irony in that isn't lost on me.

 

 

-

[Rodney]

I recall another interview being posted with Will that covered a lot of the background of Tar etc. but I don't recall seeing his interview with M dot Strange and Jimmy Screamerclauz.

My apologies if it has been posted elsewhere already:

 

 

(Note that this is all audio although its on youtube)

 

Disclaimer: The video starts out with some harsh language but that is mostly only at the intro... then after the interview. Will keeps them in line during his interview.

Of interest, the interview is somewhat relevant to our discussion here on feedback at CG Society.

It also covers some of the history of the TWO project etc.

Nice interview Will!

[ruscular]

one of my favorite martial artist is big , fat and round, and I think would be a great study of fighting skill for Tar animation

 

Sammo Hung

He often partner up with Jackie Chan in the older martial art movie from Hong Kong, then he had his own TV show "Martial Law" a spin off from Chuck Norris Texas ranger show. But the older martial art film would have a lot of reference of how Tar could fight!

[zandoriastudios]

Part of my inspiration is the character "Zatoichi" played by Shintaro Katsu and also the character "Lone Wolf and Cub" played by his brother, Tomisaburō Wakayama. I love sitting down to watch a marathon of old black and white samurai movies

 

 

[ruscular]

I watch the interview and you brought up a lot of thoughts about getting started and using the software, and what inspired you. It was like you were talking directly to me. I need to get off the testing and get to animation! Start blocking time for the animation. I got all the tools needed!

 

I have books on Franzetta and Boris Velljo, also Richard Corben. Got into Bodybuilding after Conan, the barbarian, when the movie came out. Took up martial arts after watching Chuck Norris films.

 

I think I represent my generation that grew up in the same era that you did.

I wonder if you would be entertain with the idea of having a contest for animating a fight scene with one of your character, and then being able to use it for future fight scene? I use the basic setup machine latest version for rigging and keeping the action file for Tai Chi form.

 

I was thinking like setup basic short moves, of one single application of self defense form per action file.

[zandoriastudios]

Yes, i think that might be fun!-- I think we must be around the same age, because we have similar influences

[Rodney]

Will,

Are you using a specific rig or did you rig something with something of your own.

The reason I ask is that if others have access to that rig (but not the model itself) they/we could animate actions as Ruscular suggests and those could be shared with you.

While those actions might not be entirely ideal in every case they might at least give you starting points.

The same could be said for the hyenas etc.

I think it would be fun to 'roleplay' a hyena (any one of many) trying to get the best of Tar. (But I wouldn't have to feel the pain of actually getting hit by Tar!)

 

Usually having multiple people animate characters is a bad thing because of inconsistencies that can be introduced but when these are mostly quick poses, action by secondary characters, etc. that might actually be an asset.

 

For some strange reason when I think of animating in the world of Tar keep having a recurring thought of having a hyena draw back on a bow to launch an arrow at Tar.

Another fun test might be to animate a hyena being tossed around without Tar in the scene as this would allow you (or someone else) to place and animate Tar into that shot.

The thought being that it might be easier to animate Tar in action where he has to match the reaction of the enemies he is dispatching.

 

If the hyenas were rigged with 2001 rig then we could animate those characters movements with a proxy like Thom.

Then you could just apply that action to the real character and adjust the animation.

 

One thing that I've long wanted to test and perfect is how to best execute the handoff of an animation shot from one artist/animator to another.

This was done quite regularly in traditional animation but is rarer in CG animation where one animator might complete the majority of everything in a given shot.

 

Sorry to drone on... I guess you could say after seeing Episode 1 I want to see more Tar.

[zandoriastudios]

All the rigs are The Setup Machine, so they are pretty familiar to everyone using A:M. The facial controls are just pose sliders....

 

I have two paths forward from here..

1. Pitch the series idea to a network and try to get someone to develop it. Which might even get funding and create an opportunity to create some jobs for animators in our community. But also a loss of control, because they could use whoever they want to develop it....
2. create a distributed studio similar to the Tin Woodman of Oz project, so that A:M animators and community have a role and a stake in it.
3. keep puttering forward doing it myself until I die....

[fae_alba]

 

One thing that I've long wanted to test and perfect is how to best execute the handoff of an animation shot from one artist/animator to another.

This was done quite regularly in traditional animation but is rarer in CG animation where one animator might complete the majority of everything in a given shot.

 

 

 

That process Rodney, is something I've been trying to get my around for some time. With the projects I'm working on I've dreamt of building a team or project approach to do just as you suggest. Be interesting to see Will's characters put through the ringer in this way.

[Rodney]

For what little it is worth I'll offer the following thoughts:

 

I have two paths forward from here..

1. Pitch the series idea to a network and try to get someone to develop it. Which might even get funding and create an opportunity to create some jobs for animators in our community. But also a loss of control, because they could use whoever they want to develop it...

If the series were to be picked up I see a few likely outcomes (of course there is always the innovative alternatives but...)

As you state the project would be taken off in a different direction (modified to fit a specific commercial market).

That project would likely not be created with A:M

2. create a distributed studio similar to the Tin Woodman of Oz project, so that A:M animators and community have a role and a stake in it.

 

Similar to TWO and SO the key here would be to get buy-in to make it a viable project.I was talking with Paul (fae alba) Harris last week about Martin's goal in movie making that targets a 7 day cycle.*If* TWO had the success that it started out on a trajectory of I can't help but believe we would be at the stage where your project or one similar would already be in product.

I don't want to sound negative in any way but the height and depth (and degree of success) depends almost entirely upon the artist(s) involved.

 

As they loose faith in a project (and they all will at one time or another but hopefully not too many at the same time) the going gets very rough.

If the project is small... and the webisode size might be well fitted to this... the opportunity for success is magnified.

And if planned properly those webisodes might fit quite well into a feature film length presentation.

3. keep puttering forward doing it myself until I die..

 

..

Some day we need to discuss the subject of mortality in depth for both creators and projects.

The trick there of course would be to put a positive spin on dying. (I think I'm up to that challenge. )

 

I do think that this is a given even if you see success in either or both of the other two options.

I also think that being able to point to a body of work will inspire others.

Whose inspiration you then choose to grant rights to your creative property will depend entirely upon your own criteria.

 

I can think of many directions Tar could go and I'd guess that many of those would not align with your vision for the world of Zandaria.

In each of your three scenarios going forward there are considerable compromises.

But the good news... I don't think any of those directions would turn out to be a wrong decision.

 

I will say that if you opt for anything that releases rights make sure that you either control final decisions and/or recoup those rights later on.

The example I would cite is the many years that Marvel Entertainment had to delay plans because production companies sat on their projects.

I'll hand it to them though... as they've got those rights back they applied what they learned and didn't allow that to happen (quite as much).

I suppose it might be okay if someone were paying you very handsome for the inconvenience of delaying production.

Then you could afford to move forward with other projects.

[largento]

There's a YouTube video you should watch (if you haven't already) called "Does Independent Animation Have a Future on YouTube?"

 

It discusses the algorithms that YouTube uses to determine premium content. Where it used to be that the number of views was the most important thing, it's now switched to a combination of minutes watched and frequency of uploads.

 

YouTube rewards a 6 minute video with 55% retention (3.3 minutes total for that video) with 20min/viewer total OVER a 3 minute video with 100% retention (3 minute total) where the viewers had an overall average watch time of 10 minutes rather than 20.

 

 

Making your video longer doesn't work, because it affects audience retention and doesn't increase watch time. You have to upload more content. He says the magic number is 10 minutes of regular content. YouTube says they did this to make it more about the quality of the videos, but it really rewards quantity over quality.

 

The other half is that it rewards "sessions." So, if your video links to another video that keeps the user on YouTube longer, it counts in your favor. Just having your one video every six months or so, means obscurity and no rewards.

 

It mentions an issue that came up a couple of years ago, where a YouTuber known as "Reply Girl" was making $15,000 a month from her YouTube channel that was made up entirely of her posting replies to other people's videos. She did as many as five a day and apparently capitalized on her female attributes, by featuring them prominently in the videos and video preview image. This gave her lots of clicks and any activity on her account was counted as helpful to her numbers, even the negative ones. She said that her haters were her biggest help.

 

This guy apparently manages to stay going because he's part of an animation channel called "Game Grumps" that amazingly produces 30 minutes of animation a day!

[zandoriastudios]

Rodney,

all good thoughts, thanks. Another thing I worry about with pitching it, is that if I sell the series and lose control, I also lose the ability to create things myself in the world that I created! That would be intolerable--unless of course for a lot of cash ...

[zandoriastudios]

Mark,

I did see that video, and he has good points--I think linking videos in your playlist might help--but all that matters most if you have tthe viewership to make money directly from YouTube.... I think for me, if I could use YouTube to attract fans and then target them with a DVD compilation, art book, or something along those lines...

[largento]

At the least, I would think it would be a good idea to try to supplement your animation video with additional content: "history of Tar", "Art of Tar", "Tar from 2D to 3D", etc. These could be only a couple of minutes or so long, but they'd greatly increase the amount of Tar content that's out there and you could link to all of them in every video.

 

The impression I'm getting from content providers now is that people are less interested in owning physical copies of things.

 

People have become accustomed to getting their content digitally and they want it to be free.

 

Great for the audience, bad for the creators.

 

I'm gestating on all of this in preparation for whatever it is I'm going to do next and I'm realizing that it's going to have to be a combination of elements: a website with regular content, YouTube ads, Patreon and maybe even the odd Kickstarter.

[ruscular]

When Majel Barrett took over Gene roddenberry production she welcome many writers to write episode for each segment of Star Trek, but I also keep in mind that the Star Trek world would be firmly establish bt that time. But this might be an opportunity to invite writers, eventually. But you would retain control and even ask for a rewrite if there was something that you object to, or fell away from the character.