The untitled "Let's do something with A:M" topic

[largento]

Guys, I don't see a reason to ruffle feathers here. It gains us nothing.

 

If there is one person among us who has never violated a Eula or even read one before clicking the agree button, that person is a liar.

 

Rodney, I personally find it more egregious that you would knowingly purchase illegal copies and illegally give them to pirates than for Will to let his adolescent nieces use his old copies.

 

Let's not let the letter of the law trump intent.

[Fuchur]

Rodney can not speak for Hash Inc. but only tells us his opinion. My comments are not from Hash Inc. too but my own opinion.

 

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In general I think it is a grey area we are talking about. Hash will not sue you because you use a copy of A:M from another user as long as the other user does not use it too at the same time. With the new system this is not possible with the licence system and like that it should not be a problem and you are not doing any unlegal stuff but at most something that is not totally fixed.

 

In eariler days with the CD and the update CD it could be a problem: What if you buy an update cd and sell your old CD to another user?

Now you would share one licence and this could be troublesome. (I am quite sure that this is not legal OR that at least the CD is only upgradeable once)

 

With subscription-versions it should be much simpler:

- You can buy a subscription for another person too (as a gift for instance). No one tells you, which computer you are using this licence on. Since Hash does install for all users on the computer (otherwise it would have to be installed into "C:/Users/..." instead of "C:/Program-Files" it is okay to use it with any user on this computer as long as they are not using the licence at the same time.

 

It is only defined that it should not be used on more than one computer with one licence. (which is given by the licence-system).

You are the the person the licence is licenced to, but it is okay to give it away BEFORE activating. (there is one interesting case here: What if you sell you whole computer? But even than I think it is your decision which person uses your computer)

- You can buy two subscriptions and install them on different computers which you or another person is using. (does not matter as long as each licence is only used once at the same time)

> If you have a child and your child uses the computer too, I doubt that anyone has a problem with it if it uses A:M too.

 

I think you just have to separate the possible states of the licence:

- If the licence is not activated, you can give the licence away to anybody you want to. (legally I am not sure about that, but it would not be against the spirit / intention of Hash here).

Be aware that you are still the owner of the licence for Hash. If something illegal would happen, you may be the person who is responsible for that. (However I can't imaging what that should be...)

 

- If the licence is activated, the licence is bound to one computer. Use it as you wish on this computer. (as long as you are not using any kind of cloud service to use it with different persons at the same time, this is fine)

 

One exception is there:

- If your computer dies / is damaged / needs to be reinstalled / has new hardware-compontents in it or you have bought a new one, you can ask Hash to transfer the (still active) licence to another or the updated / reinstalled computer. Hash will do this for you. I have even created a webpage which can transfer the licence in this cases, but I have to talk about it with Jason before we make it available (if we make it available).

 

I think this is quite simple and no one should have to much trouble with that, or am I wrong?

As long as the "One person uses one licence"-rule is not broken, everything else should be okay or at least in a grey zone.

 

See you

*Fuchur*

[Rodney]

I wrote a more lengthy response but there really is no way for me to discuss facts where emotions rule the day. (Short answer to Mark: "I admit I'm the greater sinner." and to Will, "You shouldn't be pissed if you haven't done anything wrong in this case." I'll be glad to carry on the conversation in personal messaging or email with anyone who feels it necessary.

 

Recommendation to those with questions about the license: When installing A:M next time read the license all the way through in order to better understand what it says and what you've agreed to accept. Alternatively we can post the license here for all to read. That way, no one has to speak for Hash Inc.

[zandoriastudios]

To clarify, my nieces are triplets and are sharing a computer--I have given them my OLD CD(singular) and serial number, which is not installed on my machine (I am using the subscription version). I don't think there is anything wrong or illegal in that.

 

You HAVE been speaking for Hash, for this entire thread! The original poster was inquiring about whether he could purchase an old version from someone, not just an old disk--which to me is a question about transferring a license, which perhaps you could have just directed him to Jason....

[Rodney]

I don't think there is anything wrong or illegal in that.

 

And I would like to demonstrate where you may be thinking wrong regarding the legalities of transferring your CD.

If you will allow me to do that.

[jakerupert]

To sum it up:

Maybe a different more liberal licensingsystem would be better also for the benefit of Hash,

(If this could not simply done with a different more liberal handling anyway)

 

These are not demands from my behalf, but just some thoughts and ideas for the best

Of all of us.

 

Companies like Maxon and Pixologic live and prosper great that way.

 

It would be interesting to know, how well the licenses sell compared to the old cds.

 

My impression was, that the most copies of A:M are sold on tradeshows to young aspiring

Comic and cartoonfans to whom selling "something to get your hands on" is more easy.

(There came in the "demand" /idea for an usb-stick version.)

Anyway lets face it, most of them will drop out of it sooner or later again, when realizing,

They wont be able to fulfill their dreams, not because the software is not capabel enough,

But because their lack of dedication, skills and the time it would take. (Theres not so many

Mark Largents around)

These users wouldn't have bought a new cd then, but they wouldnt renew the license today

Neither.

Another big number of licenses, that were sold for education is probably affected by the likes

Of blender for instance, that is free and closer to the industrystandard technologywise.

 

So there is the "hard" core of A:M users, that are, derived from the people that frequently post

Here in the forum , no more then two dozen users, definitly not enough for hash to live on in the long run.

It would be good to widen that base.

Therefor it doesn't make sense to me, if from time to time someone finds its way into this forum

And is knocking at our door to drive him away with a thread like this one.

By the way, has anybody seen Manuel around lately?

 

Fuchurs thinking also is complicated.

The vast majority of A:M ers are Einzelkämpfer working alone, I believe, so wouldnt let use many people

On e license. The core demand is one for working, one for rendering and one for maybe one for mobility

(Laptop).

But I am not demanding here but simply asking for a discount as a longtimecustomer.

 

Sure Hash has the right to say no, but that leaves me stuck with the cd for the time being.

[Fuchur]

I actually see it quite equal to you Jake. Aquiring new users is the better way than forcing existing once.

 

And what I was thinking about is only all the cases I can imagine. (an idea needs to be thought through as well as possible before it is implemented).

 

My thoughts in a very, very short manner:

- Use one activation number on one computer at the same time.

- I think it is fine to give a discount (again, this is me, not Hash) when you are buying 3 activation codes. About 150 Dollars seems to be a fair price to me.

- Giving 3 activation codes a different name is good, because it will just make it more attractive marketing wise.

 

Nothing too complex in that if you ask me.

 

See you

*Fuchur*

[Vertexspline]

It's kind of fun to help run a company with all these pricing ideas --but in the end its up to Hash Inc to figure what works best for them.

 

The new subscription plan certainly eliminates any of those old issues which in practice just enabled breaking the Eula pretty easily with resale . As to the legalities --lets face it we as consumers never read those things because why bother ---if you want to use the software you have to agree anyhow. We all know we are agreeing to a one sided all for one party aggreement. and just click ok. ----Sad but true. But ---you are agreeing to these crazy terms in the end.

 

I think Hash's current system must be ok for them but passing up new ideas to them cannot be bad as maybe sometimes they never think what the customers may want.

[Rodney]

But I am... simply asking for a discount as a longtimecustomer.

 

And this then is the bottom line of the issue (for Jost at least... Manuel's situation is a little different as he does not appear to be invoking longtimeuser status nor volume discounting at this stage)

 

As always, requests for volume discounts (or any product pricing adjustments) must be directed to Hash Inc.

All we can do is sympathize will your situation here.

 

It's kind of fun to help run a company with all these pricing ideas --but in the end its up to Hash Inc to figure what works best for them.

 

Well said.

[ptiversen]

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&a....45512109,d.cGE

 

Check these prices out for Animation software and realize that what you have with Hash Animation master is Great for the price. If you don't like the price you can always get Maya or Autodesk 3D. Then you won't have to cry about the license contract or price anymore....

 

It's just a thought.

 

I still like AM and I always try to get the money up for the subscription renewal because its the best software out there for it's current pricing.

[Vertexspline]

Tony----- indeed so true about AM ! For what you get. What you can do. What you pay. --- it's just a fabulous deal.

[jakerupert]

Yes it is a very good deal.

 

But competiton is also geting stronger rapidly with very vivid comunity and creative artistic output

And with no cost at all in one case but maybe a higher learning curve.

 

Surely Hash has some good plans for the future as well and probably don't need wise suggestions

From us, but just in case, it can't hurt, if they get to know our discussions.

 

At the end we all want our favourite software and company save and sound...

[thefreshestever]

i don´t think the reason why hash isn´t selling more a:m licenses is the price. the price is incredibly low compared to other software. i think a multi-license option would be cool, though...

 

the problem lies more in the advertising area. if people don´t know about a:m, they can´t buy it! over the last years i´ve talked to many 3D- video- and special-effect-artists, and maybe 1 out of 20 has ever heard about a:m. but every single one of them was stalked after i told them about the technology and efficiency. another issue is the image of being dedicated to the hobbyist. although a:m is a great way for the hobbyist to realize their dreams in way shorter amount of time than with other 3d-software, a:m is also a great tools for professionals. i don´t talk about wanting to sell a:m to the big studios, which have to meet the industry-standards, i´m talking more about designers and animators like me, who want to have professional output, and who could benefit from the capabilities of a:m in a great way.

 

the reason i´ve heard of a:m for the first time was a coincidence, i talked to the owner of a advertising agency i did business with and told him, that i was trying to get into 3d-animation and that i couldn´t decide which software would be best for me. he told me about a:m, i looked it up, and i was hooked by the spline-modeling technology right away. i know many designers who are intimidated by the complexity of other packages and modeling techniques, and since spline modeling is very similar to drawing curves in adobe illustrator, it´s something a graphic designers can understand right away.

 

but there are some issues with the appearance of a:m, that may look "unprofessional" to some potential customers:

 

1. the logo

no offense, but the logo looks kinda home-made and rather cheap than professional. i was almost driven away by it when i first looked it up.

sure, it has it´s charme, but it could be a little more professional and contemporary.

 

2. the hash homepage

it´s gotten better, but it still looks a bit like a page of a programmer who´s trying to sell his unfinished beta-version script. again, no offense. i know someone was putting a lot of effort in it. i´m just saying my opinion as a designer.

but just compare it to the homepages of other 3d packages, you will notice the difference right away. and it´s really easy to make the hash page look as professional as theirs.

 

3. bugs of the mac-version.

most of designers use macs, although there´s a workaround for the system bug of the inactive load- and save dialogue which one can get used to (just click "hide a:m" and then come back to the program again, and the dialogues will be active), for a lot of people it will be a "no-go" when they are first trying out a:m. this bug has been around since v15 now, it´s time to get it fixed.

also there´s still rumors out there about a:m being unstable in general, which isn´t true at all. (i don´t know how to get rid of that)

 

if hash is interested i´m willing to offer my professional help regarding the logo and/or a homepage-design (i´d do it for free, i wouldn´t say no to a lifetime-license, though ... ). those 2 things have the greatest impact on a potential new user, i think hash would benefit from it a lot.

 

a:m is the greatest tool ever, and it sure has the potential to sell a lot more copies.

[Rodney]

I'm not sure if there is a specific category for packaging, pricing and distibution in A:M Reports but drop your suggestion in there anyway.

One never knows when some new technology may appear on the scene that provides just the solution you want.

 

In the words of Hash Inc's A:M Reports page:

 

User requests define the future development of the software. When considering bug reports and feature requests here are some useful guidelines to follow:

 

-Post wish lists, feature requests and bug reports to http://www.hash.com/reports where they will be categorized and prioritized.

 

Give it a shot. What's the worst they could do, not implement your request?

At absolute best you'll find yourself with an even better solution than you wanted in the first place.

 

Be specific and where possible outline your suggested solution in clear terms so it is easy to follow.

Help them help you.

 

A:M Reports

[Vertexspline]

Sebastian,

I think a lot of what said is true- well its very true for you as these were your thoughts before you knew about AM. I think it would be a big step forward to enhance the look of the website and Logo although its been kind of iconic at this point.

 

I can vouch for its hidden exposure in the 3d world. I have heard many times in other 3d forums things like "I did not know Animation Master was still around" or "They still make that?" etc. So it does have a slight recognition factor. So getting a little more light on the software would certainly help. I do not think at this point Hash has any or much resources to be advertising alot. One small thing though we all can do to help is include in your signiture in other 3d or design or animation forums something about AM. Even if you just list it with things you use or have etc. This at least may get folks to check it out.

 

I think if some of the more accomplished (good) AM folks would post a little more on you tube etc that might get more folks to see what it can do in the right hands and yes it can be used as a professional tool --see it right here in use.

 

I mean hands down --no question , no debate ---its price is untouchable by only open source software. Its functions and capabilities are certainly more than adequate for a lot of peoples work and ideas. So in many ways it is the hidden jewel of 3d .

 

The other facet --as has been mentioned and is a known item ---is keeping folks using it ie. more and updated training materials. Animation Master is a little different. So it really needs to have a very almost helping hand approach in training -to keep more folks getting better and keep upgrading . I mean its not so cool when one of the most pointed to training materials here is from and for the 2005 version 12.

 

Now a few folks have been trying to add more but this really is imho the most critical thing to advancing AM along and growing the use of it.

[jimd]

2 cents dept

 

yep, I'm in the found it by accident club

yes the site needs an update and the text needs editing

as far as the price goes, sorry you can't beat this anywhere

 

 

and I've said it before and I'll say it again

this software is AMAZING!

 

j

[Rodney]

Do you ever get that feeling of deja vu?

I sure do.

 

Long long ago there was talk of the Hash Fellows distro'ing their own 'release' of A:M with it's own website etc.

Nothing came of that project although it was truly fun to think about the possibilities.

If there was interest perhaps that is something that the community could produce.

 

And BTW... this year marks the 10th anniversary of the A:M Forum.

And... we are soon coming up on 25 year of Hash Inc animation too!

[thefreshestever]

Long long ago there was talk of the Hash Fellows distro'ing their own 'release' of A:M with it's own website etc.

Nothing came of that project although it was truly fun to think about the possibilities.

If there was interest perhaps that is something that the community could produce.

 

you would want the community to produce a website??? i would strongly advise against that. in germany there´s a saying "zu viele köche verderben den brei" which means something like "too many cooks will mess up the meal"... and if one saying in the world is definitely true, it´s that one

 

something like that has to be done ideally by 3 people: a designer, a programmer and the client.

[Rodney]

something like that has to be done ideally by 3 people: a designer, a programmer and the client.

 

Within the 'remake A:M as you want it' team I figure there would be about 100 different sub-teams of three (at a minimum) that would target specific areas of interest.

One team would focus on the webpage.

[Vertexspline]

I think in reality when anyone references the community ---it really comes down to just a few folks anyhows. But your point is well taken Sebastian. The client and the community at large might give feedback ------the client as always --the final say.

[Rodney]

the client as always --the final say.

 

Well who is the client?

(Hint: It's not gonna be Hash Inc)

[thefreshestever]

the client as always --the final say.

 

Well who is the client?

(Hint: It's not gonna be Hash Inc)

 

why not? did i miss something?

[Rodney]

The client is someone with money to spend.

 

This is why I bring up the old Hash Fellows project.

That project would have (in theory) targeted the client of that specially packaged release of A:M.

It's goal would be to please a client with infinite money to spend; the customer.

Even though folks balk at the price of A:M occasionally it's really not about money, it's about obstacles and perceptions.

It is my view that the Hash Fellow's release would have significantly enhanced the A:M experience.

[Fuchur]

Long long ago there was talk of the Hash Fellows distro'ing their own 'release' of A:M with it's own website etc.

Nothing came of that project although it was truly fun to think about the possibilities.

If there was interest perhaps that is something that the community could produce.

 

you would want the community to produce a website??? i would strongly advise against that. in germany there´s a saying "zu viele köche verderben den brei" which means something like "too many cooks will mess up the meal"... and if one saying in the world is definitely true, it´s that one

 

something like that has to be done ideally by 3 people: a designer, a programmer and the client.

 

I did the design, the programming and most of the content of the website. (Viele Köche verderben den Brei bzw. kommt eh nix rum wenn man 20 Leute fragt... wie du schon sagtest. Ich hab mich einfach dran gesetzt und habs durchgezogen, Martin & Co fanden es gut und dann wars beschlossen). The website is getting old now (I think it was product 2009 or 2010, I dont remember exactly).

 

The hardest part was, that people liked the comic look of the old website. So I had to try to make a more professional looking website without leaving the comic-lovers behind (A:M's userbase has a big part of them in it). Doing a very straight- / engineering webdesign was not possible like that. (actually I think it would really not have suited A:M too well like that too)

 

Like that I did the website the way it is now, which was way ahead of what we had before (especially in terms of informations and of maintaining it). Anyhow I am a web-programmer and less of an designer as you stated right.

 

I had a look at the competitors (like maxon, autodesk, lightwave, etc.) and decided that I could not go that way... the problem I suffered the most of was, that most websites from competing products had these top notch / perfect looking images (often bought from image libraries if you ask me) which really attract the user that much and they often used that image as a main-attraction point in their layouts. Since I could not ask anyone for permission to use the best once of A:M (there are images which can compete with the top level once of other software, but most people who did that are no longer available to talk to or it would have taken too much time for my patience in that days to get the permission) I had to go for a simpler look.

 

Most people like it better than before... But some wanted the more playful look back...

For instance I remember that Will was not very happy with it, because it showed less comic-characters and was just less playful (something A:M's userbase likes and A:M is very well suited to produce).

 

But enough about that: If you want to give it a try I would not mind having a look at it.

Keep in mind that we need to support older browsers and smaller screensizes. Using procentual designs is an option there, but it often limits the designer very much, if we want to stay backwards compatible... (InternetExplorer before 10 do not support most CSS3-commands, etc.)

 

See you

*Fuchur*

[thefreshestever]

rodney, i wasn´t talking about spending huge amounts of money. i offered my help for free. so the client would be hash inc, because they have to give their approval, right?

 

@gerald:

 

i know what you mean by making compromises regarding the comic-look. but it´s possible to combine the comic look with elegance and a more professional look. are you familiar with the concept of responsive webdesign? if not, just google it. since responsive webdesign is around (not for too long, though, it´s a relatively new thing), we can make websites that are no longer resolution-dependent. regarding what resolution is available (for example big 30" monitor, 15" notebook or just a mobile device), the content repositions itself in a defined grid. that´s pretty neat, so you only have to program one website which automatically fit´s ALL possible resolutions. it´s a little bit more effort design- and programming-wise, but it´s the best way to go right now, since you have so many users on ipads and iphones or similar products.

 

just take a look at for example www.ld-systems.com (my first site using that technique), and resize your browser-window, you will see how the content follows.

 

i would take a shot at it, but only if hash has an interest in actually doing it. maybe you could ask first, before i take a shot in the dark. i don´t wanna spend time on something that isn´t gonna happen.

[robcat2075]

Promotion is very difficult and only getting harder to break through the noise of everything else that people are looking at.

 

Advertising in the conventional sense of buying ads in publications won't get much return.

[thefreshestever]

Promotion is very difficult and only getting harder to break through the noise of everything else that people are looking at.

 

Advertising in the conventional sense of buying ads in publications won't get much return.

 

i wasn´t thinking about coventional advertising. more about a entertaining and informative youtube-channel with tutorials and demos for instance.

 

another issue is the findability via google. if you type in "3D software", "3D application", "character animation" or "character animation software", a:m doesn´t show up within the first 10 pages (i don´t know if it ever shows up)... almost all other apps do. how can you expect to sell your product, if your practically invisible??? you can only find the website if you already know the name of the product or the company, and that´s really really bad for business. and comany-wise you get at first a dozen pot-forums, before you find hash inc.

[largento]

This is, of course, just my take on things, but I've often thought that Hash's take on Animation:Master's success is similar to my own thinking about success. I'd like to have just enough success so that I could make the things I want to make and live comfortably. I wouldn't want so much success that life is made complicated by having to spend more time dealing with all the ramifications of the success than I could on the thing that made me a success.

 

Fortunately, I've never had any success, so it's been a moot point, but I get that vibe about Hash.

 

If they were to make an effort to make A:M wildly successful, then it's going to require hiring many people to deal with all of the new problems success brings: more orders, more demands, product support, etc. It becomes way too much for one person to handle and you suddenly need middle management and decisions about this thing you made are now being made by other people, 'cause there's just not enough hours in the day for one person to make them all. Not to mention, the more users you get, inevitably the more complaints you get. And the complainers are always more vocal than the happy customers.

 

I don't get the impression that A:M is a full-time job for anyone right now and that would have to change and then some if A:M blew up.

 

I do think A:M would be huge among designers (I'm a designer, and it's huge with me!), but at the same time, as with any 3D software, there's some serious time investment required to reach a level of competence with A:M. Few designers I know have that much drive. Most of the ones I know still know only rudimentary things about the software they use on a daily basis. They mostly "play" with Photoshop and Illustrator and pick up tips and tricks as they go.

 

All of this is just my speculation, but the one thing I do know is that any such movement is going to come from Hash, not us. It's their company and their software. We just are grateful that we get to buy and use it.

[thefreshestever]

i get what you´re saying, mark... and of course i´m only looking at it from a users point. i just want a:m to be around for the time i live and i´d like to see even more cool features. it kinda hurts to see something with so much potential just using half of it. but i think the same way of expanding my own business, that´s why i don´t want to hire any people. so i guess i´m in a bad position to complain

[Fuchur]

rodney, i wasn´t talking about spending huge amounts of money. i offered my help for free. so the client would be hash inc, because they have to give their approval, right?

 

@gerald:

 

i know what you mean by making compromises regarding the comic-look. but it´s possible to combine the comic look with elegance and a more professional look. are you familiar with the concept of responsive webdesign? if not, just google it. since responsive webdesign is around (not for too long, though, it´s a relatively new thing), we can make websites that are no longer resolution-dependent. regarding what resolution is available (for example big 30" monitor, 15" notebook or just a mobile device), the content repositions itself in a defined grid. that´s pretty neat, so you only have to program one website which automatically fit´s ALL possible resolutions. it´s a little bit more effort design- and programming-wise, but it´s the best way to go right now, since you have so many users on ipads and iphones or similar products.

 

just take a look at for example www.ld-systems.com (my first site using that technique), and resize your browser-window, you will see how the content follows.

 

i would take a shot at it, but only if hash has an interest in actually doing it. maybe you could ask first, before i take a shot in the dark. i don´t wanna spend time on something that isn´t gonna happen.

 

I am... it is my job BUT responsive webdesign is not that easy to accomplish... (in other words: It is a buzz-word like cloud-computing which is nice to say to customers but the customer needs to know what and were it will limit him) using media queries, float designs and individually created SVG-graphics and so on is much more work to do AND the designer must be very aware of what he is doing so that the programmer can do it. In my experience there are VERY few webdesigners who really know what it needs to do that in a good way while being able to do it SEO wise reasonable and keep in mind that not every browser does do everything... (yes I know, you can leave the IE behind for more advanced stuff, but no customer I have talked to wants that... you show them something beautiful in Chrome or FireFox and the next question from them is "why doesnt it look like that for me?" and the end of the game is you are struggeling massively with bad workarounds to get it somehow displayed with and IE 8 (if you are lucky) which is used in the company the person is working in...)

 

The bad thing about such stuff is: It is really quiet everything possible IF the right base is given... the problem is: The base is not given in most situations...

At least that is my experience from the last 6 years of mainly doing webdevelopment (including programming my own content management system (Typo3 was just not nice enough...), developement of different webapplications like interactive configurators (without flash of course) and many different websites...) it all sounds great on paper but reallity strikes back sooner or later... if you need to take most people in the boat, webdesign today often means using technologies which are 5 years old or using workarounds which are not very well suited in terms of SEO (W3C conform, fast, not resizing of images, less resources to be loaded in, etc.), will massivly decrease the google page speed-value or make it not barrier free... It really is a book of its own to do it all right... especially if you need to do it with a CMS for maintainance-reasons...

 

But just to make it clear: There are websites which can be made resolution-independend if the designer knows what to do and what not to do.

 

About asking: I can ask of course, but without any kind of info on what you wanna do or what we try to accomplish or in which direction we are going to work with it, it is hard to tell anybody about it.

 

See you

*Fuchur*

[Fuchur]

Promotion is very difficult and only getting harder to break through the noise of everything else that people are looking at.

 

Advertising in the conventional sense of buying ads in publications won't get much return.

 

i wasn´t thinking about coventional advertising. more about a entertaining and informative youtube-channel with tutorials and demos for instance.

 

another issue is the findability via google. if you type in "3D software", "3D application", "character animation" or "character animation software", a:m doesn´t show up within the first 10 pages (i don´t know if it ever shows up)... almost all other apps do. how can you expect to sell your product, if your practically invisible??? you can only find the website if you already know the name of the product or the company, and that´s really really bad for business. and comany-wise you get at first a dozen pot-forums, before you find hash inc.

 

This is most likely because they have a big budget... Autodesk for instance has tons of great backlinks from forums, big studios and so on... And it is massively promoted by banners, ads, is a big player in CAD business and stuff like that. Especially the budget is true for all the other 3d software you are talking about... The free B.... is promoted that massively by the Linux-Fanboys and massive blender fanbase and for instance blender's shorts are given to video-player manufactures for free, etc.

 

The problem is: Hash never did that kind of advertisement... they always worked with other sorts which were well suited for the software and worked good enough, but today that is harder to accomplish...

 

So the question is: What to do with a small budget?

 

See you

*Fuchur*

 

PS: Just to mention it: I doubt that many people would buy a 3d software without asking in open online forums what they should buy... (or at least they ask friends, etc.) I think this is a bigger factor and a bad thing for A:M too... anway: If you've got ideas, let us talk about them...

[Vertexspline]

I think Mark maybe be right up to a point , but I would suggest that there is a significant upside for AM to gain before a lot extra effort would be required. And this extra revenues could help for both enriching Hash Inc and helping fund some more development perhaps or at least maintaining what goes on now.

 

Plus even more importantly folks would have a better experience with AM with upgraded web site especially if it can highlight training and galleries. Here is what you can do- here is how you may be able to do it.

 

Now that said ----Gerald ---the current web site work you have done here has been very good for all of us. And thank you for that effort. Smiles.

[jakerupert]

Hi Sebastian,

 

I think its a great offer from your side and though Fuchur did a great job in the past, it would surly help to get a more

"Businesslike" look in what represents hashs great product. Its a pity that non of the ownersfamily like Jason and Martin participate here once in a while, almost like as if they have lost their faith in a broader succsess of A:M and arranging themselves keeping A:M at the current status quo with just the mantainance necessary.

As I said, I think that's ok for me as long as it keeps the boat floating, but some easy and not costly measures like your offer for instance might nevertheless be worth trying to solidify the base.

 

And Fuchur in regard to the forums: Martins withdrawl from cg talk didnt make real sense to me.

 

From my impression from different media, be it print or online, A:M is far less present today as it still was a few years ago. But that could be just my subjectiv focus .

[thefreshestever]

@ gerald.. usually i know what to do and what not to, if i´m not sure i talk with the programmer about it. i think it´s important these days especially with all the mobile devices to be flexible. i wasn´t saying hash should say yes, make a new website, and i make one. i just want to know if there´s a general interest in it. i have no doubt i could satisfy hash inc like any other customer, that´s not the issue.

 

but let´s be honest: how many people use ie8? and since potential customers are all nerds anyways, i´d say close to no one. at the moment it´s about 50% chrome, 28% firefox and 13% internet explorer. of those 13% ie users might be 10% still on ie8, so that´s 1.3% of all users. then take the fact that almost all potential customers are nerds and always up to date, that leaves us with maybe 0.01%. do you really want to consider them?

 

but that´s all irrelevant if hash has no interest in selling more copies anyway...

[thefreshestever]

Hi Sebastian,

 

I think its a great offer from your side and though Fuchur did a great job in the past, it would surly help to get a more

"Businesslike" look in what represents hashs great product. Its a pity that non of the ownersfamily like Jason and Martin participate here once in a while, almost like as if they have lost their faith in a broader succsess of A:M yet and arranging themselves keeping A:M at the current status quo with just the mantainance necessary.

As I said, I think that's ok for me as long as it keeps the boat floating, but some easy and not costly measures like your offer for instance might nevertheless be worth trying to solidify the base.

 

that reminds me: we still have to drink a beer together...

[jakerupert]

Sure we do!

 

Just give me a call, when you find the time.

 

Jost

[TheSpleen]

It's worth the money, Just buy it.

[Vertexspline]

I for one --would think that update to the website might help a little to increase Animation Masters initial purchase base and maybe increase the number of active users at the same time . More active users instills more confidence in the software's value which brings on more initial purchases which bring on more active users and you get the general idea.

 

Smiles. Oh how easy it is - (As if it was).

[Fuchur]

@ gerald.. usually i know what to do and what not to, if i´m not sure i talk with the programmer about it. i think it´s important these days especially with all the mobile devices to be flexible. i wasn´t saying hash should say yes, make a new website, and i make one. i just want to know if there´s a general interest in it. i have no doubt i could satisfy hash inc like any other customer, that´s not the issue.

 

but let´s be honest: how many people use ie8? and since potential customers are all nerds anyways, i´d say close to no one. at the moment it´s about 50% chrome, 28% firefox and 13% internet explorer. of those 13% ie users might be 10% still on ie8, so that´s 1.3% of all users. then take the fact that almost all potential customers are nerds and always up to date, that leaves us with maybe 0.01%. do you really want to consider them?

 

but that´s all irrelevant if hash has no interest in selling more copies anyway...

 

The pitty is: Many... especially in the business fields... system admins are not updating their computers that easy if you ask me as long as they work... when I did the website I assumed that a certain screen resolution was matches (1280 x 720px, nothing too fancy) for users of A:M, since we are in the graphics area here... that was in a time when mobile devises were not that wide spread as today and I was only doing it for desktop users... and we had several different people complaining that it could not be shown for them without scrolling. I really did not get how someone could possibily work on a 1024 x 768 resolution display and do graphic works... but people did... I had to write a JS-Zooming-Algorithm for the website (I am aware that it is a little buggy, but I did not have the time to support the few people we had with that problem...)

 

And today we even got some IE 6 users left on business networks... it is really really sad. (so I am no longer supporting these browsers. I stopped it when Google / Youtube and Microsoft themselves tried to get rid of it... anyway... IE8 is not that uncomon today... and it highly depends on the country we are talking about... these 50% chrome sounds too much for me too... I'd say it is more like 20% Chrome, 25% firefox, 25% Safari and 25% other stuff... currently microsoft is gaining some market shares with IE10 again (everyone is complaining about Microsoft but they have a win of over 6 billion in the last quater, which is more than they had in the past few quaters). Worldwide I would say we are easily at 10%+ for IE8 users. (and IE8 is really a big gain over IE7 oder IE6... it is just not enough...)

 

But there are no good numbers about that... the only guys who could give these numbers would be google (somewhere in the 90%-range of users in Germany use that as a searchengine, but in other countries thereit is a little different), but I never saw something like that and they develope one of those browsers and will tint them very likely if they are giving it out.

 

All in all: We would have to at least give a backup design for IE8 too... (no biggy to do that, if we are aware about it while developing...)

 

See you

*Fuchur*

[fae_alba]

Long long ago there was talk of the Hash Fellows distro'ing their own 'release' of A:M with it's own website etc.

Nothing came of that project although it was truly fun to think about the possibilities.

If there was interest perhaps that is something that the community could produce.

 

you would want the community to produce a website??? i would strongly advise against that. in germany there´s a saying "zu viele köche verderben den brei" which means something like "too many cooks will mess up the meal"... and if one saying in the world is definitely true, it´s that one

 

something like that has to be done ideally by 3 people: a designer, a programmer and the client.

 

 

"Too many chiefs and not enough indians..." that's the I've always said the same phrase!

[fae_alba]

On the question of building another site to promote A:M, my simple answer is it won't, unless you are willing to spend lots of cash in buying advertising to promote the site. My sense on Hash's business model is one of keeping the operational cost incredibly low so they can keep the price of the software incredibly low so that as many "kitchen table" animators can buy it as possible. Want to get A:M ranked better on a google search page? The solution is simple really, and very low cost. Each forum user builds a blog site on animation, posts a lot of articles, frequently. In every post they reference A:M, in context, with links. Each blogger mentions other bloggers who are also mentioning A:M. Build a network of backlinks, all pointing back to the Hash website. And before you know it, A:M will start to get ranked closer and closer to the top of google searches. That's how it's done.

 

On the question of anyone using IE8...do you really need to ask that? I have users on much older versions of IE than 8. When designing a commercial website, you always design for the least common denominator (in this case you design in the most generic feature set, so that all browsers can view it without issue). And yes, HTML5 is coming onboard in designs as hte new "standard", and even that standard is not fully implemented on all browsers.

[Vertexspline]

I think bringing more people to a AM web site is half the issue and true its not so easy to do ---the other is you want to provide a very nice look and feel and a place that folks will be able to "get into " AM maybe a little more easily than is provided right now. Building up the user base is not going to happen in a short time frame no matter what you do given the restraints of $. But a newer website certainly would not hurt.

 

AM is unique. Am is inexpensive. AM is relatively easy to use. AM is relatively powerful. --------It should be more known. It should be more used. Its just a tad more expensive than open source for the one year subscription so its not like some of that audience cannot be acquired if it was known by more folks.

[thefreshestever]

that´s exactly what i meant, rich... it´s not necessarily about getting more people on the page, it´s more about keeping them there and convincing them that a:m is the right choice for them, and most important: that a:m can meet professional demand.

 

@ paul: do i really need to ask that? yes. if everyone would have developed websites for the oldest browsers around, where would we be now? sure, nothing against making a fall-back option, that might not look as pretty, but to pass on new and awesome technology because of a few people who are too lazy to update their browsers? as i said before, potential a:m users are not the kind of people who still use ie8.

but i don´t wanna have a discussion here about browser usage, this is too exhausting. i had this discussion about a million times before.

 

i´m just offering my help here, seems to be no big interest, though.

[Kamikaze]

I want to personally thank Hash Inc. for allowing this thread to go on ..in the old days it would not have lasted a day or two, even if that long............Animation Master is by far the easiest to learn and most affordable software of it's kind (3d animation) including the free one that I have tried.......Rock On Hash !

 

One problem today is a lot of young ish folk would rather play games and do the facebook thing then do anything remotely constructive, they may talk about it but with no real intent to start ....I have 2 sons I've tried to get interested in AM or animation in general...it was a no go !

[jakerupert]

i´m just offering my help here, seems to be no big interest, though.

 

That really is a great pity. But maybe contacting Jason Hash directly would be a different story?

Might be worth trying...

[Vertexspline]

Sebastian, I am in support of your idea to facelift the web site ---Unfortunately I have no web design/programming skills to help. I think going to Jason is a great idea as its closer to the real client. Smiles

[robcat2075]

If they were to make an effort to make A:M wildly successful, then it's going to require hiring many...

 

A:M was wildly successful in the late 90's to early 00' time frame. They successfully rode the wave of intense interest in 3D modeling and animation generated by Pixar movies and Jurrassic Park-type movies by having a program that could do real modeling and animation at a bargain price.

 

That wave has long passed. All the "consumer level" buyers have tried 3D in some program or other and found out it's tough.

 

Softimage and Maya continued to build market share after that wave passed by intense advertising and promotion to the small fraction of buyers who were left, the pros and semi pros and people dreaming they might make a career out of it. They both went broke doing it. They got the greater market share but drove themselves into the ground doing it. All the advertising never paid for itself in enough increased purchases and support fees.

 

For a while, they could coast on other people's venture capital money but that ran out and they had to sell themselves to Autodesk for pennies on what had been spent building themselves up.

 

There was no way for Hash to compete with that financial plan: spend lots of other people's money then go broke anyway and have someone else take the product. The only money to prop up A:M when the sales weren't paying the bills was Martin's money. There's no way his thousands could compete for market awareness and prestige appearance like their millions could.

 

none-the-less, i think Hash did as good a job with free buzz like word-of-mouth and selling directly at shows as one could do. If a way could have been found to counter the negative word-of-mouth that developed at the same time we might be looking at a bigger slice of the user awareness than we have today.

[robcat2075]

Shorter version... A:M isn't smaller than Maya today because someone at HASH, Inc doesn't care. It's just a market reality of what it costs to "buy" customers.

 

 

Blender certainly has many more "users" than A:M and Maya and all the others combined. How could it not? It's free! Anyone 3D-curious will download it and try it. When they get disappointed with it they probably don't think "I need to use a program that costs money" and move up to something else. They probably just stop there.

[thefreshestever]

Shorter version... A:M isn't smaller than Maya today because someone at HASH, Inc doesn't care. It's just a market reality of what it costs to "buy" customers.

 

 

Blender certainly has many more "users" than A:M and Maya and all the others combined. How could it not? It's free! Anyone 3D-curious will download it and try it. When they get disappointed with it they probably don't think "I need to use a program that costs money" and move up to something else. They probably just stop there.

 

 

i guess i´m different then... i was searching for months, even for years when i recall correctly, before i found the right 3D software for me. i´ve tried them almost all.

i got into 3D because of a colleague at work, when i was still employed in an agency. he was using strata, so i first tinkered around with that. it´s easy to use, but very limited, and certainly didn´t have the focus on animation. soon i began to realize that this couldn´t be the right software for me. so i´ve tried cinema4D, 3Ds max, carrara, lightwave and blender... with each one of them i got frustrated very quickly, because nothing did work like in the tutorials, even the most simple things seemed to be impossible. then someone told me about a:m, i looked it up, watched some demos, and immediately thought: "that´s how a 3D app should work!!!" hash seemed to be the only ones following the logic. at the same day i ordered the cd (even though blender was free ), it was v12 back then. when the cd arrived, i was as exited as a little kid on christmas morning, in one week i did the whole tao a:m, and EVERYTHING worked as described in the book.

 

i know a lot of designers who are interested in 3D, but are scared because of the complexity of the software they would need to learn. when i told them about a:m and that it is really easy to learn they wouldn´t believe me. no wonder, since most of them tried other apps and got frustrated, like i did.

 

regarding the cost of advertising: advertising nowadays is very different than it was back then, youtube, facebook and blogs got really powerful, and it´s all free, you just need a little manpower to fill them with content.

 

regarding the homepage: i will put something together, let´s just see how it goes.

[Rodney]

One of the reasons A:M sells so briskly at tradeshows is that folks can see up close and personal just how much fun animating is.

The primary obstacle to purchase is the sense that 'it can't possibly be that easy'.

In a sense it isn't but also in a sense... in comparison to other programs... with A:M it really is that easy!

 

I knew of A:M approx. four year before purchasing but was convinced that the more expensive progams where really what I needed.

I confess that I was jaded because everything up until A:M had been a dissappointment... half baked implementations... hobble-ware at best.

 

I've told the story of me going to the computer store in Japan and comparing boxes on the shelf.

All of the boxes suggested that the more expensive products were what I wanted... and I tried a few of the more affordable ones over the years.

But that A:M box... I just kept staring and it and reading the contents. Looking at the images of the things created by average people.

 

The thing that ultimately sold me on A:M was the fact that Hash Inc wasn't pushing the hard sell on me.

In a way it was almost as if they weren't trying to sell me their product.

There was something very different about this guy Martin and his approach to computer animation.

Very different in a very good way.

 

But first, I had to get over myself... and the idea that more expensive meant better... before I could take the leap of faith in this product that seemed entirely too powerful... and yet too simple... to be believed. Like others here, when I got A:M and ran it was an exciting day. In a way it's not much different today when I launch A:M. While somewhat dulled with time and with a world-weary and ever present voice that suggests 'you don't have time to be creative today', every time I launch A:M, I get that sense all over again as when I launched A:M on that first day... you know the one... that we can create anything.