The untitled "Let's do something with A:M" topic

[robcat2075]

i guess i´m different then... i was searching for months, even for years when i recall correctly, before i found the right 3D software for me.

 

 

I was, of course, over-simplifying for dramatic purposes.

 

There IS an artist segment of the population that A:M would be ideal for. If we could figure out how to get their attention and get them past the disappointments they had with Blender or Maya or whatever I think there would be real possibilities.

[Vertexspline]

We need tee shirts with AM logos ablazing. Then we need to wear them everywhere. advance the usership one person at a time. And I am only half joking here.

 

Animation Master is unique and really not like Maya or Blender ---its has a very focused approach for CA and it has splines so it is very different than anything else --------just have to get more folks to try it and see for themselves. But as I soapbox some -----there really needs to be an effort to make learning and continued learning ---------a mantra for the community. Many do get frustrated by the splines and leave even before they get to animate anything much - this is the group you really need to hang onto and develop.

[Rodney]

this is the group you really need to hang onto and develop.

 

It's easy to hang around here but we can't force anyone to comment, contribute or stay.

The majority of A:M users don't even visit the forum... assuming they know it is here.

It is hoped that by each of us getting involved in the community (in whatever way) our personal development can be shared.

But each person has to make their own decisions.

And then we all press on from there.

 

There IS an artist segment of the population that A:M would be ideal for. If we could figure out how to get their attention and get them past the disappointments they had with Blender or Maya or whatever I think there would be real possibilities.

 

The largest pool to draw from is that of aspiring animators from all walks of life.

Compared to this the disenfranchised with other software is but a trickle.

I'm not saying these folks aren't important but more often than not the artists are struggling less with the software than they are with themselves.

In other words, they can't see solutions (such as moving to A:M) because they have constructed too many artificial obstacle and barriers.

 

Here's a barrier that is easily removed:

I wonder how many people that can't afford A:M *can* afford those other programs.

If they can, it's no wonder they can't afford A:M at the end of the day.

[higginsdj]

I find it interesting that people seem to focus on the Hash web site as the thing that needs to change. I do not agree. Blender's success has nothing to do with it's web site. Blender has several things going for it (other than the fact that it is free):

 

1. It makes a big deal out of making shorts every 2 years. Those shorts not only instigate a big push in new development of the software itself, but promote the use of the software and it's features.

2. Blender has a massive amount of free resources available to all Blender users that are generated out of these movies (A:M has a large pool of reasonably high quality resources - but it would appear that it is not available to everyone!)

3. Blender has a massive amount of training resources available to all Blender users that are generated out of the movies. Yes A:M has a lot of little tutorials that one can try to hunt down/search for but they are only available in the forum, have to be downloaded and then you do not know if they are still relevant. The issue is you have to know what you are after in order to search for it. Blender has theme based training as well as function based training.

4. Blender has generated it's own commercial market of 3rd party plugins, training resources etc - both free and for a fee

5. Blender has a philosophy of if Blender can't do it then use what can do it. A:M however has a anything can be done in A:M no matter how hard it might be to do it so don't talk about/use anything else philosophy.

 

You will find that people do not visit the Blender site (unless they want to download the official version of Blender) but visit all the 3rd party sites instead and it is these sites that generate the interest in Blender and it is these sites that are wizbang and flashy.

 

The trouble is, there are so few A:M users who have the skill to develop/generate high quality 3D/CGI work. There are a lot of A:M users who like to dabble and play and do stuff but frankly produce 'cringeworthy' results (like me) or who are limited to doing a thing - ie model something but not texture or rig it, texture something but not model it etc. How many A:M users can put a quality set/scene together? How many can do a 'professional' quality lighting/render for a scene? (there are probably a lot who think they can - but where are the examples?) TWO was 'cringeworthy' - SO less so (a personal opinion). If you want to better promote A:M, I think we should be promoting those A:M users/projects that produce high end work. TWO and SO are, in my opinion, not suited for that purpose.

 

Sorry if my post appears too blunt.

 

Cheers

[Vertexspline]

David , your post does not strike me as too blunt ---most of what you say rings of truth. All the Blender things you say are true but I do not think AM should/could even focus too much on Blender or even trying to compete with it per se. Its films have budgets and are worked on by many folks. They also have been significantly shorter in length than the 2 AM Films if we are comparing.

 

Could the AM community stalwarts whip out a "Sintel " (the third Blender movie) given a strong effort? --- I am going to have to say with the caveat of there being some rendering, effects limitations in AM - Yes

 

In fact , I agree with you on the premise that these shorts attract users. And it would be a good thing to promote something along those lines but as we have seen in this thread there are many reasons another community like movie project would be very difficult to get going at this time. (Although -----trying to work on a shorter 10 -15 minute one would be so much more a wise move if anyone wanted some advice)

 

That said ----it seems to me , one of the biggest problems AM has is raising up the skills of the cringeworthy. Being there myself I can speak freely and agree with you our numbers are legion.

 

But where I disagree with you ----is that its the web portal here that would have to be the core spot for a better focused learning/user experience right now. Once a bigger core grows --then some of the other things Blender has going on will slowly develop to.

[robcat2075]

The Blender strategy works for them because they have a critical mass of users. That critical mass happened because the program is free.

 

"Users" is a loose term, it may include people just trying to learn the program but they have that large number of somewhat interested people and from that they can draw out enough from the small fraction of accomplished users the necessary people it takes to make a good-looking short. (They still have to pay them to get them on board. Blender isn't that much fun that they can get people to do ti for free))

 

And from the other not-so-accomplished users they can extract money to pay for the production of those shorts. They like paying that money because the result sort of validates their program choice. "I must have the right program because that short looks good and it was made with this program," is sort of what they think. That is a successful psychology for Blender.

 

That strategy works to get Blender shorts made every two years, but it doesn't seem to have made the program any better in terms of usability so that those not-so-accomplished users can get closer to their dream of... whatever their dream is. Here you are, Dave, wanting to use A:M instead of Blender. You're not picking the program based on who made the best looking short, but I realize many people will if they haven't used either program yet.

 

that strategy also hasn't made any progress on the Blender community's main frustration which might be stated as "Our program can do what other programs do and it's free, why doesn't Hollywood drop what they are doing ans switch to Blender?" It's not going to happen for them, that window of opportunity has sailed. Maya, at enormous cost, bought it's way into the high-profile studio niche and it is entrenched.

[largento]

Having a website is like having your name on a piece of paper under a pile of boxes in your basement. It's possible somebody might stumble upon it, but not unless they are looking. :-)

[higginsdj]

Here you are, Dave, wanting to use A:M instead of Blender. You're not picking the program based on who made the best looking short, but I realize many people will if they haven't used either program yet.

 

Actually I still 'use' Blender. I "play" with both Blender and A:M but only because the things I play with in Blender are virtually identical to A:M (Modelling and Animating) and there are ready resources for me to play with (in both). I don't have a story to tell, I enjoy the technical side of the apps and 'play' with things, see what I can do. If it weren't for things like the 11secclub or TWO/SO or mini competitions like AM Pirates then I wouldn't actually be doing anything!

 

But please don't get me wrong, I am not trying to promote Blender - just the concept that it is the users of the software that do the bulk of a softwares promotion as well as successful projects done with that software. On this forum (and on the Hash site) we tend to be like a family, accepting of all levels of work equally. Some work is far more worthy of praise and promotion than others but if you weren't a long time forum member - you wouldn't know! A prospective customer comes to the forum or the hash site, does a quick look around - what impression do they come away with? As you said - first impression for the uninitiated is the quality of the work produced is directly related to the quality of the product itself. We know it's not - but we are already converts!

 

Cheers

[Rodney]

A prospective customer comes to the forum or the hash site, does a quick look around - what impression do they come away with? As you said - first impression for the uninitiated is the quality of the work produced is directly related to the quality of the product itself.

 

I've long wanted to have a 'landing place' for entry into the forum that would be a bit more polished (working on it!) but I think there is something to having everything out there for all to see. I know this isn't the popular conception but at least it's honest. The forum is very much a work in progress and will continue to adapt to the needs of the community.

 

Folks generally know when they are seeing only the best samples of a product or service even though it might be a mostly from an unconscious instinct. A great attraction for me personally in purchasing A:M was that I could see a few warts in the wider variety of quality which convinced me that... hey, this is the real deal. I can do that! I acknowledge that this might be something of a turn off for those who seek the highest levels of quality. But I confess, I much prefer the large dose of reality.

 

A major challenge for any community is to engage it's seasoned folks with projects or services that are equal to their skill level without casting aside focus on it's newbies. This is never easy when the most successful and knowledgeable of the last generation has moved on to more profitable social networks. Someone has to hang back and support the upcoming generation. These are the ones that need to have the thickest skins and not take criticism personally. Their effort is their testimony.

 

It's easy to forget that over the past 20 years of A:M more folks have moved on to become teachers, directors and highly respected animators than can easily be counted. That equates to more than a few adverts, commercials, series and short films. We tend to overlook this when making 'if only you'd listen to me' comparisons.

 

If it weren't for things like the 11secclub or TWO/SO or mini competitions like AM Pirates then I wouldn't actually be doing anything!

 

The A:M Community definitely needs ongoing projects to engage creative folks like David.

My personal preference is to push out into places such as 11 second club because if the only place you are involved is in the A:M forum your social circle is too constricted. Pushing out into external venues also has the added benefit of promoting A:M.

[higginsdj]

I am certainly not advocating that anything is hidden - just that the best of the best be put up on a pedistal as an example and motivator for all - not just new arrivals. I don't look at all the WIP pages or all the forum topics and up until this morning missed the Zeco topic. "Wow" factor stuff like this really needs to be highlighted! For me, I find it inspirational and it should be driving a lot of 'how did he do that?' type mini tutorials (and not necessarily by the topic author)

 

I'm a hack and I can't tell a story to save my life (you'll see what I mean when you look at my AM:Pirate entry) but boy do I get inspired to do 'stuff' when I see great work beign generated.

 

Cheers

[robcat2075]

About TWO...

 

When people who regard themselves as animators look at it their reaction is sort of like "Oh dear! Those people have deluded themselves into thinking they are as good as PIXAR! EVERYONE knows only movies that are as good as PIXAR movies are real movies so these people MUST be fooling themselves to call this a movie. Those poor people need to be told that their movie doesn't look like a PIXAR movie!"

 

I and everyone else involved know that TWO isn't on the same level as a Hollywood movie. How could it be? But I have had the experience of presenting TWO to an audience... a PAYING audience that wasn't related to me, didn't know me and owed me no favors... and the audience enjoyed TWO none-the-less. Some even loved it.

 

They weren't retarded or otherwise unaware of the ways of western civilization, they certainly knew what "real" movies looked like. Still, they enjoyed the movie. They liked the characters, they liked the story, they even liked the songs. TWO is like other independent movies... lots of rough edges, lots of corners cut, very basic production levels in many places. But the movie can still be enjoyed as a movie.

 

When i present TWO I say "What you are about to see is not like Hollywood movies you typically see... and we know that. We KNOW that what we have made is not on that level. You don't have to worry that we are unaware of that. Here's how this project came to be..."

 

If I can get them over that discomfort of uncertainty, they can settle in and enjoy the movie, just as they enjoy community theater that is not on the same level as a Broadway play.

 

Even Hollywood movies need months of promotion and awareness campaigning to get the right audience into the seats and prepare them for it. Still sometimes good movies fail.

 

TWO, sitting on Youtube or as a DVD that you just plop in someone's lap, gets none of that huge effort that is expended on most movies to create interest so, of course, someone will find it "cringe-worthy" if all they have to frame their expectations with is PIXAR movies.

 

Give it the right pitch, as all movies need anyway, and TWO is successful.

[Rodney]

Well said Robert.

 

 

I am... advocating... that the best of the best be put up on a pedistal as an example and motivator for all

 

And that is why you see Zeco up there in the scrolling banner.

There is also a place for the best of the best to be on view in the Showcase Forum.

And for those apt to teach I recommend starting a Special Topic where such information can be easy located and shared.

 

You can lead the users to the forum but you can't magically transform them into modelers, riggers and animators.

The good news is that quality animation and information from all levels is being spotlighted every day.

Content is increasingly posted in prime locations for all to see as if we were presenting dailies.

Now we just have to encourage the creative types to promote themselves.

 

There have been a few posts where someone has stated, "Hey I just accidentally ran across this post" and I've wanted to respond, "Um... no you didn't. You clicked on a link that took you there."

[thefreshestever]

i tell you why a good homepage with professional looking images is so important. and i don´t mean a image-gallery, big images of high-quality renders in the background, that you will immediately see, when you visit the page. i don´t know how you do it, but when i hear about a software, that i might be interested in, i look for their homepage. if that´s what i see there looks kinda homemade and unprofessional, i might loose interest very quickly. if what i see there looks top notch, and the images display exactly the output i would like to create myself, i will stay and get more info about it. i don´t say that a new page gets hash loads of new customers, but it´s essential for the image of a company, especially when that company is a software company. if it´s not that important, like few of you´re saying, why are big companies spending huge amounts of money on their web-appearance? i will give you a hint: because it IS important.

 

and robert is right, the main reason why blender got so big is because it´s free. certainly not because it´s intuitive or better than others.

[Roger]

i tell you why a good homepage with professional looking images is so important. and i don´t mean a image-gallery, big images of high-quality renders in the background, that you will immediately see, when you visit the page. i don´t know how you do it, but when i hear about a software, that i might be interested in, i look for their homepage. if that´s what i see there looks kinda homemade and unprofessional, i might loose interest very quickly. if what i see there looks top notch, and the images display exactly the output i would like to create myself, i will stay and get more info about it. i don´t say that a new page gets hash loads of new customers, but it´s essential for the image of a company, especially when that company is a software company. if it´s not that important, like few of you´re saying, why are big companies spending huge amounts of money on their web-appearance? i will give you a hint: because it IS important.

 

and robert is right, the main reason why blender got so big is because it´s free. certainly not because it´s intuitive or better than others.

 

I guess I don't see what it is that is displayed on the web page that looks that bad? 90 percent of the stuff that is in the marquee or was in the old format looks just fine to me.

 

I get that everyone wants AM to be successful and there is a certain appeal to using what the "Hollywood pros" use. (There is a psychological term for this, the endowment effect, where an object takes on extra appeal because of who it is used by. A guitar owned and played by Jimi Hendrix is more valuable than one played by Joe Schmoe. It is the reason you see so many celebrity endorsements.)

 

However, the value in AM is that we are open to everyone. It isn't exclusionary. You don't have to take out a 2nd mortage on your house to afford your tools. Heck, all you would have to do to get the money for AM is one odd job every week for a month for $20, and you would have the money.

[KJ'd Beast]

I would love to see feature spot light pieces on the users who are using A:M successfully, ie: Soul Cage Department, Mark R. Largent, Will Sutton, Sabastien "TheFreshestEver" as well as others who are active users of the community and making quality animations. TWO and SO should have prominent feature articles on the main Hash site with a list of all the people who worked on it and what their roles were. A behind the scenes featurette would be cool with interviews. I think posting these types of things on a forum loses it's appeal and I personally don't want to sift through forums to find it. There is reciprocity for Hash to promote their successful users.

[Rodney]

I don't think you'll find anyone that will disagree with the statement that a webpage is important.

And this goes double for a site dedicated to making animated imagery.

There really is only one response to an offer such as this... "Do it!"

Now... if only things were that simple.

 

I suppose one could contact Jason and say, "I notice your website is need of an update" and make an offer for services to be rendered.

The range then is can be anything from free to goodgollygoshwow too expensive... but that'd be entirely between you and Hash Inc.

 

My greatest concern in desires like these has to do with a strange phenomenon that occurs -after- such improvements are made.

This is where the motivated parties involved complete their task and then, for some reason known only to them, disappear entirely from the scene.

Gerald (Fuchur) has been able to buck this trend... he's still hanging with us ... and for that he gets major points from me.

 

If trying to engage Hash Inc , drop them a line and propose your idea.

Otherwise, if seeking validation from the community, we are all available to hear the proposal here.

Perhaps there is an example website that is already live that is an ideal example of what could work better for A:M?

 

Aside: I hesitate to mention this here because many will misunderstand but I highly recommend staying away from either seeking or accepting free product from Hash Inc (I'm speaking here primarily of subscriptions to A:M... not TShirts, cupholders, jackets etc.) because giving A:M away for free undercuts both the intrinsic value and the financial support of A:M. I know this will not resonate with most but I speak from experience and ask a measure of trust in this suggestion. I know Sebastian was partially joking but while it makes sense on the surface, seeking or accepting a free subscription to A:M (short term or otherwise) is the ultimate embodiment of undermining financial support of A:M. I'd be happy to discuss this more in public or in private with anyone who is interested in such esoterica but in short, while tempting... don't do it. Ask to be paid in cold hard cash for your services and then purchase your copies of A:M that way. A:M is not a charity case please don't treat it that way. It is the best computer animation software on the planet. But it needs our financial support just as much as it needs the community to share models, tutorials and personal/professional experience. The financial support keeps everything running smoothly (i.e. it pays the bills) while the daily support from this valued community helps to perfect the A:M experience.

[robcat2075]

I would be willing to give the text of the website a once-over for a more commercial style and grammar, if that is desired.

[thefreshestever]

rodney, i offered my help for free, so i guess that tells how i feel about supporting hash in any way

if i´d ask for regular cash for a webdesign hash would have

 

gerald is in contact with jason regarding the homepage, we´ll see.

 

@rob: good idea.

[largento]

You know, there *is* such thing as a fan page. A wordpress blog could be set up and allow for A:M users to contribute blog posts that highlight all these things we fans like about A:M.

[Rodney]

rodney, i offered my help for free, so i guess that tells how i feel about supporting hash in any way

 

Acknowledged. I wasn't trying to diminish your offer in any way.

On the other hand, I do my very best to encourage people NOT to work for free.

 

Somewhat appropo:

 

[vimeo]34473449[/vimeo]

 

The thing that may be as applicable as the organizational elements in the animation* (if not moreso) is the work rates quoted on the site:

(Unless otherwise discounted, the client would have paid approximately $10K for the above animation.)

 

http://www.whiteboardanimation.com/rates/

 

I realize we aren't employees here but there are many similarities.

 

 

*I hope at least some of the content of the animation sinks in.

(Note that I do not agree with everything depicted in the animation. For instance, I think they've set the level of engagement too high on their chart. There is also an aspect where the engagement pyramid is inverted. This is especially true where communities of artists and animators retain high levels of individualism. In this sense the executive is the individual artist... and vice versa... as each individual gets their turn at being the creative head of their own project within their community.

[Roger]

rodney, i offered my help for free, so i guess that tells how i feel about supporting hash in any way

 

Acknowledged. I wasn't trying to diminish your offer in any way.

On the other hand, I do my very best to encourage people NOT to work for free.

 

>

 

 

*I hope at least some of the content of the animation sinks in.

(Note that I do not agree with everything depicted in the animation. For instance, I think they've set the level of engagement too high on their chart. There is also an aspect where the engagement pyramid is inverted. This is especially true where communities of artists and animators retain high levels of individualism. In this sense the executive is the individual artist... and vice versa... as each individual gets their turn at being the creative head of their own project within their community.

 

Blah blah blah... "manage synergy", "cascade goals", "paradigm"....snooze. Bet you could sell a lot of seats to MBAs and PHBs with that seminar. Maybe I picked the wrong line of work.

[Rodney]

Blah blah blah... "manage synergy", "cascade goals", "paradigm"....snooze. Bet you could sell a lot of seats to MBAs and PHBs with that seminar. Maybe I picked the wrong line of work.

 

That may in fact be the case but... Cha-Ching.... that was the sound of $10K going into the bank account.

 

Underlying Point (which is where this topic began): For those making $10K per animated presentation, it becomes a bit easier to afford A:M.

[thefreshestever]

i just noticed i didn´t finish my post earlier and just clicked send, because the telephone rang

 

i don´t know anymore what i wanted to say, but it probably doesn´t matter anyway... rodney, don´t worry about me, usually i don´t work for free, only for friends and family.

[robcat2075]

It's easy to see what needs to be done. It's hard to get someone else to do it.

[Vertexspline]

I am glad to hear Sebastian that you have contacted Gerald who is contacting Jason----Hopefully they take you up on your kind offer. I think a lot of David's impressions on websites and appeal they may or may not have with prospective buyers ring very true. And working on fixing a few things here might be very helpful in getting more folks to try AM.

 

Which by the way ---I wonder if Hash Inc knows that Steam now sells software on thier massivley popular web portal. There are about 15 software packages --- 3d coat, art rage, gamemaker ,rpg maker --to name a few up for sale. Now I have no idea what the terms are , or cut for steam and not sure a subscription model can even work --but I do know its a portal of millions of gamers and some of these folks surely would have a interest in AM. Just a thought while we are running Hash Inc for fun . Smiles .

[Dpendleton77]

I will say this TWO and SO was far from cringe worthy. That movie was one of the best collaborations I have seen from people working together in an online format. Now on to the site I think it could use a touch up to get folks attention and also some updated tutorials would help immensely. I personally love this software I think it is one of the best on the market, I dabbled in Blender and although it is free I like A:M is much more intuitive. I am trying to get some friends to look into picking this up and giving it a try.

 

The folks on the site here are very helpful and hardly any questions go ignored,in my journeys throughout the web I have seen quite a few folks that use this program with great results. There are people on youtube you have done anime, star wars, star trek,and Superman shorts in A:M also a few music videos. So the folks are out there the question is how can we get them back on the forum to talk methods and such. I am going to stick in for the long haul.

[Vertexspline]

I think AM might have one of the friendliest and helpful forum communities going ---so it is a little odd that there are not more folks being active here. Some days there is not even 20 different folks posting. So yes it would be great to somehow get more folks back into the fold. Or increasing new folks use.

 

I think this thread has a few good ideas for Hash Inc to think upon. In the end its their company for real.....we just play software application owners on TV.

[robcat2075]

Would we condense the basic challenge down to "how do we get people to use A:M when it's not the first or second option they think of?"

[Vertexspline]

Robert that probably is the main issue to hurdle. Obviously , if they do not even know to look for it they will not.

[Rodney]

Would we condense the basic challenge down to "how do we get people to use A:M when it's not the first or second option they think of?"

 

Until we come up with a better name for it there is at least one approach to 'Robert's Dilemma' that I believe will work and work well. I'd guess that we are about 10 years out from having this 'perfected' however because we, as a community, have not yet empowered A:M users sufficiently nor prepared them adequately.

 

The 'How' of getting people to use A:M is simply a matter of exposure.

For most people, all they need to do is see A:M in action or observe the results created by others with like interests.

 

Secret recipe: The next great modeler/rigger/texturer/lighter/animator currently doesn't even know they are interested in computer animation.

They will soon discover that interest due to a few dedicated individuals and the discovery of a program called A:M.

Not all will become ambassadors themselves of course.

 

Underlying premise: Each A:M User is an ambassador in their local community who is already known (or soon will be) for their interest in computer animation as well as a variety of other skills and interests they bring to the larger community. The framework for their over all connectivity are the Users Groups which they belong to and the primary Users Group that every A:M User belongs to at www.hash.com/forums.