So answered a question at another forum

[Dpendleton77]

I was over at CGtalk an somebody asked about a secondary modeling program and I pointed them towards Hash. This is a response from one of the forum members there. I had to attach the file because it would not let me copy and paste. I am not trying to go into a what products is the best but I thought his answer was not really truthful about what AM can achieve.

Hash A.docx

[zandoriastudios]

haters gonna hate...

[Rodney]

Haters gonna hate.

Woah... did Will and I just post the same response or did I post into his response?

[Dpendleton77]

I was thinking the same thing Will. I wanted to post a response but I did not want to get into a software war.

[fae_alba]

Us versus Them, Apple versus Microsoft, A:M versus ....well the "M" word!

 

When will the world be at peace and we all play together?

 

To respond would most certainly either start a software war or bring the trolls out in force. Better to simply produce quality work, let everybody ooo and ahh over it, then say "by the way, it was done in A:M".

[Dpendleton77]

Fae I agree wgholeheartedly that is why I did not even play into it.

[robcat2075]

There is a persistent cult of trolls who hate A:M and Martin Hash and on and on because their new-user work in A:M doesn't look like the stuff that highly experienced users in other programs do.

 

 

For even the most accomplished user, working with Hash patches can sometimes be nothing short of a small nightmare.

 

I am an accomplished user and I don't have trouble with it.

 

We could find thousands of people who bought Maya or any other 3D package who never got a good model out of them but for some reason, with A:M , we blame the software and not the user.

Close a patch wrong and you end up with hard edges.that

That's cuz you're doing it wrong. He knows he's doing it wrong and that's where he stops?

 

 

Connect it improperly and now you're left with internal geometry or bulges along the surface.

 

Again... No kidding, guy? Do it improperly and you get something you don't want. That is life in general.

He wants to be stupid with no consequences.

 

Is there some other software out there that lets him do everything wrong and it fixes everything for him?

Hash patches obey their own rules...barely. Hash patches can't even be compared to more traditional Bezier or NURBS patches

 

They can't be compared because A:M patches have more power. You can't do 3-point patches and 5-point patches and hooks in NURBS. He seems to want to use features that don't exist in NURBS and yet still work with the rules of limited NURBS.

 

 

since, unless things have changed since I last used A:M, they don't give you full control over the CVs.

 

 

The bias handles on control points let you make any curve between two CPs in A:M that you could make between any two CPs in NURBS. What more control is there to be had?

 

 

[johnl3d]

It's the artist not the tool that get results

[Fuchur]

actually it is not a hater... i think in some aspects he has a point in others he does not... most is just opinion... i think he can have that opinion... for instance: A:M is a little in its own world. that is right. i just do not see why that needs to be bad. it is very suited for beginners in animation. of course he is wrong that it is a pain for a experienced user... in my opinion it is a blast for someone who can use it and i think especially if you are not already thinking in box modelling terms it is very easy to work with.

 

a:m models tend to be less detailed than some sculpted models... that is just not a bad thing in many situations since they stay extremly well manageable...

 

the only thing i do not like is the first sentense... it is not a thing of the past... A:M is still amazing and does do things nicer and easier than any other software... and yes the other way round it is true too... but that is normal and that is really right for any software out there.

 

this is not a pure hater post... it is one with opinions i dont share in it but it is not extremly unfair or totally wrong... it just does not tell the whole story.

 

i will have a look at the thread when i come home and will see if i can give a fair and nice answer over there.

 

see you

*fuchur*

[Dpendleton77]

I went away from AM for awhile to learn how to use Maya as I was going to use it to freelance and make some extra cash. I took a course or two and I am pretty competent in Maya but alas I hated it when it came to character modeling and even it animation tools. In the end I just said screw it and changed my mindset so here I am back to learning AM. Granted other programs has it pros and cons I still think to just dismiss AM is the wrong thing to do. I feel that I have more power to create in this program. I am going to make it my mission to learn this program inside and out and show them what can be done. The freshest ever has some of nicest animation and models around and from my knowledge he uses A:M as does the soulcage dept which we all know.

[Fuchur]

that is the right spirit and all you say is right for me too... there are even more people who do an amazing job with A:M and yes it is all about the artist.

 

some get how A:M is working and feel it flowing and some wont. that is fine with me. not everybody can paint but may be better in pottery. that is fine... everybody is different and everybody should have its place to do what s/he likes. i am one who gets A:M and loves it for the flow and fluid way to work with.

 

i like the way you think about it... screw the people who think to know what is good for all other people... nobody does... become a great artist with the software you like the most... i think everybody here is happy to hear that it is A:M for you. for me it is too

 

see you

*Fuchur*

[R Reynolds]

Clearly this user needs to justify, in his own mind, the multi-kilobucks he's paid to C4D, Maya and who knows what else. But to give the devil his due, I agree with the following:

 

Hash patches ... are unlike anything used in the other, better recognized, software applications ... is a means toward developing ... non-standard modeling habits... It swims around doing its own thing, but never really allowed to play with others ... It's a no-frills approach at a sensible and hobbyist friendly price

 

I know I cherry picked these quotes just like a movie studio does to warp a bad review but he's correct that you're either all in with A:M or not at all. I believe that was Martin's concept from Day 1. But this user seems to begin with the premise that you can't do "real" 3D animation without a team of both animators and 3D modeling / texturing / rigging / animating / rendering programs, therefore a program that isn't compatible with the rest of the team is useless. "One animator at his kitchen table" rejects that premise.

 

And considering this user's out of pocket costs over more than 10 years, I'm surprised at his restraint when he calls the price merely "sensible"...stupefying would have come to my mind.

 

 

[Rodney]

Because folks tend to be adverse to critical feedback... mistaking the mentioning of any suggestion for improvement or change with constructive suggestions that are a very good thing... perhaps it might be good to review what the definition of a 'hater' is:

 

hat·er

ˈhādər/

noun

a person who greatly dislikes a specified person or thing.

"a man hater"

• informal

  ​​​​a negative or critical person.

   

  "she found it difficult to cope with the haters"

 

The poster's focus on negativity aligns him with the definition of a hater.

While suggesting he fits firmly in the first definition would be a stretch (not enough information to suggest this person has a specific agenda) the second is readily apparent; a focus on the negative. Sadly, this is also the norm for most people who comment on the internet.

 

I have no doubt the poster thinks he's offering good advice but a more proper response would be to focus on what the original topic poster asked for in the first place which was suggestions for alternative approaches for modeling. While there are many alternatives, A:M is perhaps by definition THE alternative approach to modeling when compared to other (standard or widely accepted) methodologies. A wiser response would have been to acknowledge that fact and then suggest additional, perhaps even better, alternatives.

[Fuchur]

For me a hater is a fan boy of another software who just needs to be right about that his software is the best and every other software (especially the one the person is using he is currently talking with) is the devil in itself and wrong at whatever there can be... that stuff that you hear if you ask why Windows is better than Mac or why Macs are better than Windows PCs....

 

But yes in that explaination above it is right... but I do not see a problem in saying something negative... that is okay... if it is true or it is true for the biggest part.

 

See you

*Fuchur*

[fae_alba]

More over, compared to models made using more traditional methodology, the level of detail in A:M models tends to be much less - on average.

 

 

 

I challenge anyone to take a look at any "best of A:M's list", like the one on Fuchar's signature, and not believe that A:M is perfectly capably of producing detailed artwork, animatable or no.

[detbear]

A:M has made great changes over the years. It has also added really

helpful features. I'm both impressed with A:M and proud to have been a supporter.

I have always stated that A:M is a good tool. And it still is.

 

The truth is though, most aspiring cg artists desire to go "Big Time" in the Animation Industry. If you get

a job in a feature film studio, then you aren't going to be using A:M there.....PERIOD. There is very

little that can change that any time soon. 15 years ago, this was still hopeful, but it just did not work out the way

many of us long term A:M'ers wish it would have.

 

The battles of the past in this arena pitted very artistic people's opinions against each other. Actually, A:M should hold this dear.....

because many of those people who shadowed these forums went on to work on some of the best CG projects the world has ever

known. PIXAR....DISNEY.....DREAMWORKS...etc. This would not have been possible if they weren't great artists. In fact, they were some of the best in the world. Do I hold this against them.....for not staying with A:M. No way..... They did what it took to make their goals and dreams happen. A:M was a stepping stone. If they were honest about it, they learned a bunch in this tool. And the tool developed a bunch while so many passed through here.

 

Artists tend to be extremely opinionated. It seems to be a part of their nature. So when extremely talented people

are all in the same place....the potential for extremely damaging fallout can take place. As time has shown some of these

were in fact among the best of the best.

 

Unfortunately, it brings out the worst at times.

 

The tool known as Animation Master is still a great way to tell stories. PERIOD.

[nemyax]

If you disregard the derision in that post, the bloke has a perfectly valid point. A:M cannot be recommended as a secondary modelling program. What in the world would you do with patch models outside A:M?

[Dpendleton77]

You make a good point nem. I do not know what he does for a living he might just be a hobbyist or run his own shop. I know that AM does not play well with other software. I just offered an alternative.

[pixelplucker]

In its day AM had a great nitch for those wanting to learn animation and tell their own stories. With the release of lite and personal editions of the big packages, many seem to be overlooking AM. Many adapted to horsing out characters in Z Brush, tossing the models into the bigger name applications and grunting out massive polygonal scenes. There is a whole generation that don't know the simplicity AM offers and they try to compare it to the more popular modeling techniques and try to apply those techniques to AM which don't work and causes frustration.

 

Many of the users out there are also simply lazy and would rather import objects and characters from external programs, import the motions and stake claim to their final renders.

[nemyax]

Many of the users out there are also simply lazy and would rather import objects and characters from external programs, import the motions and stake claim to their final renders.

Well they are telling their stories, aren't they?

[Rodney]

There is so much misinformation flying in this topic it's downright depressing.

But as they say, 'everyone is entitled to their misinformed opinion'.

[detbear]

Sorry if I depressed you or misinformed you Big Rodney. Not My intensions.

 

I hate this topic everytime it comes up. Makes me want to quit the A:M forums.

[Shelton]

William i know i hate the topic too. But i just keep going. This program works for me, i have tried most of the others and have stayed right here, and happy i have

[Dpendleton77]

Det I hope this does not make you leave. I only posted because when I first looked at A:M back before I became a user I thought it was weak also. I then took a look through the gallery and did my research an I saw first hand that it is powerful. I just posted this because the person did not seem to do his research. Granted he is right on some things.

[Rodney]

Makes me want to quit the A:M forums.

 

 

That's exactly the result of misinformation I speak of... people get tired of negativity... although rarely those who thrive on negativity.

I'd love to address some of that negativity but the only thing addressing that would lead to would be more misunderstandings, misinformation and negativity.

So instead I will suggest; always consider the source. I hope no one will ever leave the A:M Forum over ill informed or misguided opinion.

 

A word of caution to Douglas who possibly had no idea what he was getting into when he made his alternative suggestion.

This is one of the many dangers of 'promoting A:M' where naysayers are prevalent ('You say A:M is an option... I say thee nay!'). This will wear you down and discourage you to no end. My suggestion would be to continue to focus on your work and tell your stories. Use A:M for everything it is worth. Let the work will speak for itself.

 

The good news is that people do see through the constant barrage of negativity (usually by considering the agendas of the naysayers and questioning their motivation) The bad news is they often have to wade through environments of intense noise to signal ratio to get there.

[Dpendleton77]

Oh trust me Rodney I will do that. A:M is my story telling method. I shall not be dissuaded, I mentioned A:M on the forum before and got a much more positive response. Again I was not trying to start a war.

[Fuchur]

Just to mention it: It really is not even about A:M... if you would have said the same mentioning Lightwave or Sido or something else, you would probably have gotten an quite equal response...

 

There are always people who will tell you that your software is bad and their software is the best... as well as it would be with operation systems, your newest smartphone or the color of your hair...

there are just strange, unlikeable people out there who really just need something to do and use there free time to annoy other people... that is all that there is to say: Just don't let that get to you.

 

You are using a software you like, or the smartphone, operation system or whatever you like. It is your decission, not their's.

And as long as you are happy, everything else is just not worth thinking about in that direction...

 

See you

*Fuchur*