Eos Posted February 22, 2005 Posted February 22, 2005 Here it is, the head of a dragon (so far). I've always admired the Ciruelo's fantastic art and 've always wanted to model a dragon. So i'm taking advantage of a few weeks of vacation to do it. Comments are welcome! Quote
Eos Posted February 22, 2005 Author Posted February 22, 2005 Here's the drawing i used for rotoscope. I drew it myself, since i needed a perfect side-view of it to avoid mistakes. I'm working on the body now, so expect more WIP! Quote
Eos Posted February 22, 2005 Author Posted February 22, 2005 Whoops i think i didnt post that image after all. Here it is. Quote
Dhar Posted February 22, 2005 Posted February 22, 2005 That looks fantastic! Are the pencil views your interpretation? Quote
Eos Posted February 22, 2005 Author Posted February 22, 2005 Yep, that's the result of lots of years of drawing dragons in school notebooks instead of paying attention to whatever the teachers were saying... lol I was, of course, fluently guided by a book i recomend very much to all the dragon fans, the Book of the Dragon by Ciruelo. i can post kind of a linkhere I used to draw all styles of dragons since i can remember, but Ciruelo's style its the best i think Quote
Eos Posted February 22, 2005 Author Posted February 22, 2005 Heres the WIP of the body so far... my modelling methodology is to model the separate parts - legs, arms, wings, tail -, position them and then connect the CPs. This has proven to me to be better than model the body and pull out the limbs out of it. I'm sure everyone models like this but i wanted to notice that point as a very good method. Quote
Vash Posted February 22, 2005 Posted February 22, 2005 Unique form of modeling you got there. You make all the pieces and then attatch them. Is he going to be a credit to humans or a "human slayer"? Quote
Eos Posted February 23, 2005 Author Posted February 23, 2005 Is he going to be a credit to humans or a "human slayer"? You know, i've always thought that we humans are a very unfair specie... we don't have predators that eat us! To be fair with mother nature and give a little bit of chance to the dragons family, I think I'm with the human slayer for now, hehehe Actually, i learned the "each-part-separately-then-connect" technique from a modelling tutorial video someone showed to me once. Can't recall exactly what was its name or who was speaking, but I remember saying to myself: "Duh, how come I never thought of that!" Thanx for your comments! Quote
Eos Posted February 23, 2005 Author Posted February 23, 2005 After making a mess trying to connect all the separate pieces (Of course this technique had to have this kind of problem), here's the dragon's body so far. Quote
Tony Posted February 23, 2005 Posted February 23, 2005 whoa!! Thats gonna be sooo nice when its finished. Quote
Vash Posted February 23, 2005 Posted February 23, 2005 Ahhh... Now time for some bloody human deaths... Oh-ooh yeah. That is looking awesome! You need to get some webbing for the wings. (I'm jealous, because My modeling sucks) Quote
Zaryin Posted February 23, 2005 Posted February 23, 2005 I'm really liking how this is coming along. If your style of modeling works for you, keep at it. Quote
Gorf Posted February 23, 2005 Posted February 23, 2005 Is he going to be a credit to humans or a "human slayer"? You know, i've always thought that we humans are a very unfair specie... we don't have predators that eat us! To be fair with mother nature and give a little bit of chance to the dragons family, I think I'm with the human slayer for now, hehehe Sorry for taking this off-topic, but we do have one species that is a predator. Sure lions, sharks, crocodiles and even driver ants will attack humans for food if they are hungry (opportunist hunting), but only one animal will actively predate on humans. The polar bear. Quote
Eos Posted February 23, 2005 Author Posted February 23, 2005 You're right Gareth! The polar bear is actually a human predator. Well, this dragon is going to be the next step in evolution... hide your kids and stop fearing nonsense stuff like ghosts or vampires, 'cause this guy will be your new and real problem! hahaha Quote
Eos Posted February 23, 2005 Author Posted February 23, 2005 Just finished the wing membrane. I rotated the whole wing and shoulder because i think its going to be better when the rigging part comes... Quote
Eos Posted February 23, 2005 Author Posted February 23, 2005 Just finished the wing membrane. I rotated the whole wing and shoulder because i think its going to be better when the rigging part comes... Quote
Eos Posted February 23, 2005 Author Posted February 23, 2005 Whew, i'm getting scared... but because of the patch count! it's over 2,600 and it's just the whole head and half of the body! I promised myself I wouldn't make a big deal out of the patch count and, instead, try to make good details. I can always take out a few patches if I need to animate or something.... but what do you think? I made lots of patches in the wing membranes 'cause i plan to fold the wings like bird or bat wings, and that skin is going to bend in a zig-zag way, kind of accordion. Quote
Vash Posted February 23, 2005 Posted February 23, 2005 Just finished the wing membrane. I rotated the whole wing and shoulder because i think its going to be better when the rigging part comes... I think you double posted. If your computer can handle all that go for it, but start saving more because the more dampening it is on your computer the more likely it is for A:M to crash. Take it from experience... Quote
Eos Posted February 23, 2005 Author Posted February 23, 2005 Gotcha Vash, i'll start optimizing some areas like the tail, the wing fingers and membrane. I haven't realized yet that i want some more spikes and spines on the dragon's head and the classic line of spikes going over its back, it also needs theeth, tongue and the missing hands and feet. I'm aware of the risk, my computer is kinda good but you never know when is A:M going to say "no more". Thanx for the comments. Quote
Eos Posted February 24, 2005 Author Posted February 24, 2005 Finished the basic modelling! Here it is, with patch optimization on the wings, tail, neck, head and fingers. Total patches: 4946 I'm exhausted! Did everything in my power to reduce the patch count, but I couldn't take more patches out without compromising the muscular structure of the dragon, so I guess I'll live with it and consider it a high res model that deserves high res textures! I think it needs another two hundred patches (minimum) for teeth, tongue, back spines and head spines. Cross your fingers so my computer can handle it... Quote
Eos Posted February 24, 2005 Author Posted February 24, 2005 Another view of the main body of the dragon. Comments are welcome of course. Quote
player character Posted February 24, 2005 Posted February 24, 2005 Great job so far! But this may be one of those situations where you have to put all the high res parts in seperate files and have low res versions of the whole body for long shots. good luck! I'm looking forward to the decaled renders Quote
Vash Posted February 24, 2005 Posted February 24, 2005 Good job Ed, it looks nice! Post a wireframe too so I can see how well it flows. Quote
Eos Posted February 24, 2005 Author Posted February 24, 2005 Did some more optimization. I reduced the patches in the hands, because I considered they had too many CPs. Here's an image of the before-and-after of the hands. Total patches now: 4782 Quote
Eos Posted February 24, 2005 Author Posted February 24, 2005 Finished! I put the rest of the spines, the teeth, tongue and some other details. I'll start rigging it now. Thanx for all the comments! Quote
Fuchur Posted February 24, 2005 Posted February 24, 2005 Wow... very very nice... a very nice looking model... *Fuchur* Quote
Eos Posted February 24, 2005 Author Posted February 24, 2005 A full size render. Does anyone knows why the wing membranes are not proyecting shadows? Is it because they're one sided? If it is, how can I solve that? Quote
jamagica Posted February 24, 2005 Posted February 24, 2005 wow..that's weird...if you think that's why, just extrude and don't translate it (move it) anywhere..just move it back up to the original position of the first membrane you extruded from..then save that as a different copy just in case that was the solution Quote
Zaryin Posted February 25, 2005 Posted February 25, 2005 It has something to do with the no thickness patches of your membrane and the shadow type you are using. Quote
Eos Posted February 25, 2005 Author Posted February 25, 2005 just extrude and don't translate it (move it) anywhere..just move it back up to the original position of the first membrane you extruded from.. Welcome to Weirdo-land! I tried your advice and it still doesn't proyect shadows. I moved it just a little bit lower .... nothing! I checked that all the normals were facing outside, just in case it had something to do... nothing! Then, I moved it some more and, Whoa! It proyected shadows! Apparently there's something about the width of the model that interferes in the shadow projection... Here's the two cases. They're the same wings, extruded but with differences in the lenght of the extrude. I still need to get rid of a five-point patch that can't be filled, so I guess I'm going to make a two sided membrane (without extruding, because it provoques unnecesary faces) and see what happens. I'm sure that, at least one of you guys have had this kind of problem when rendering, the one sided patch doesn't proyect shadows. But what about proyecting shadows depending on the width? Does this have an explanation??? Quote
Vash Posted February 25, 2005 Posted February 25, 2005 That's weird. That is insanely weird. I wonder what Zaryin meant by shadow type *hint hint*? Quote
Eos Posted February 25, 2005 Author Posted February 25, 2005 Aah Zaryin, man, you've just saved me like 300 more patches! It seems that it was the shadow properties after all... I can rest. Thanx a lot for your help, all of you Quote
Paul Forwood Posted February 25, 2005 Posted February 25, 2005 Hi, Eos That's a mighty fine looking dragon that you've got there! So what exactly was the answer to the shadow problem? Quote
Julian Posted February 25, 2005 Posted February 25, 2005 It looks like he switched to using raytraced shadows instead of Z-buffered. Quote
Eos Posted February 25, 2005 Author Posted February 25, 2005 That's right, Z buffered shadows cannot be produced by one sided patches or very thin extrusions. The solution is to use Raytracing shadows. Still got a lot to learn Anyway, here's an image of my dragon with the rigging so far... Thanx for comments! Quote
Zaryin Posted February 25, 2005 Posted February 25, 2005 You're welcome. This is looking way better than mine ever did. Are you planning on adding cheast plating? Quote
Eos Posted February 27, 2005 Author Posted February 27, 2005 Are you planning on adding cheast plating? Maybe but first I'll see if it works with textures and bump maps... I don't know how more patches it will handle, and also this dragon concept is a little more like a lizard or a komodo dragon... flat and smaller scales. I want it to look like a big lizard, mostly like Ciruelo's paintings, which I think are excelent interpretations of dragons. Thanx for comments! More to come! Quote
starwarsguy Posted February 28, 2005 Posted February 28, 2005 You do realize that the image contest topic is SciFi/Fantasy, don't you? I think you've got a real shot! Quote
Eos Posted March 1, 2005 Author Posted March 1, 2005 Yeah! that's the intention so far, to make an illustration for this month's contest. I hope I can finish by that time... I'm getting some side work and couldn't continue this days... Here's a little update, though. I rigged the wing and discovered that you need lots of bones to take care of the skin in order to avoid mesh problems during the bending... I wonder if some kind of dinamic cloth simulation could do the job better. I didn't take any risks, so I did this in the old fashion way. Quote
Eos Posted March 1, 2005 Author Posted March 1, 2005 I tried folding one of the wings using my lots-of-bones method. The result surprised me... it's better than what I expected! Thanx for all the comments! I'm having great fun with this! Quote
Mr. Jaqe Posted March 1, 2005 Posted March 1, 2005 It's...it's just...beautiful... Dude, that's one fancy dragon!! Quote
starwarsguy Posted March 1, 2005 Posted March 1, 2005 Looking good. Only thing that bothers me is the skin between the wings. I realize that this is more in the range of animation and not an image conest, but if he put his wings together on his back, wouldn't the skin do something other than rise up like in that pic? Quote
jamagica Posted March 1, 2005 Posted March 1, 2005 Since dragons don't exist, I don't think there's any wrong way to fold wings, just like "There's no wrong way to eat a Reces Peanut Butter Cup" Quote
Mr. Jaqe Posted March 1, 2005 Posted March 1, 2005 Since dragons don't exist... That...that... I... it's not true! it's a LIE!! A LIE I TELL YOU! then can you explain the picture he got of a dragon? huh? HUH?! CAN YOU?!?! Btw, still love your dragon and it must be kinda frustrating not getting much critiq, but it's because it's so damned GOOD! Quote
JoshB Posted March 1, 2005 Posted March 1, 2005 Most artists I know that create dragons use bats as their reference. Since bats have the same fingers joint set up as the archetypal dragon--and the same webbing. Since it is a web the size of the skin would decrease slightly and then fold in on itself. The fold does bother me because it looks too stiff to be flesh. Look at some bats. J Quote
Eos Posted March 2, 2005 Author Posted March 2, 2005 I followed your advice of looking at bats, and although I remembered pretty well how to draw those kind of wings, I never actually thought of how their folding was. It appears that, opposite to my dragon's, the bat webs are connected to the legs, so when they fold theirs it looks like a flying squirrel, with a lot of skin surrounding their bodies. My dragon's wings have less skin because they finish on the sides, also the second finger of bats (the equivalent to human's index) is very short, while my dragon has the four fingers kinda equally long. I think I'll edit a little the folding 'cause I thought it looked too stiff, too. I don't know if I need to put more CPs so I'll do some tests before posting them. Also to consider its the webs width: in bats it's very thin and transparent, but this dragon is almost 5 meters long, its a big animal who needs the kind of skin you would see in pterodactils, so the skin cannot bend that much... I know this is a fantastic creature and anything goes (nevertheless I still believe they're real, Mr Jage), but everything looks better when you consider how would it be if it was real. Thanx for the comments! I appreciate that you think its so good that it doesn't need lots of crits, but I'll still be thankful for any suggestion and opinion. Eos Quote
Eos Posted March 2, 2005 Author Posted March 2, 2005 Does it look better? Just added more bones to the web mesh and adjusted mannually when required. I used an orient like costraint for the skin bones, 50% to one finger and 50% to the other adyacent finger. It saved me a lot of work this way to adjust the skin to the bones. Quote
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