A:M fix for Mac OS "Mavericks"

[robcat2075]

It's possible to start over and rewrite A:M to be compliant with the new Mac system but it would be a huge effort and it comes after all the development time and money has been spent doing it a different way that used to be acceptable to Apple and before there was any warning that this new requirement was coming down the road.

 

All that work just to get back the program we have now.

 

It's possible to do but, as Martin says, "It's possible... like going to Mars is possible."

 

 

I'm hoping Steffen can find a workaround.

[largento]

I do, too, but like you say, there aren't enough of us to justify the expense of writing it from the bottom up, even if there was a willingness or desire to do it. And if Steffen can patch it up, will it still work a year from now when the next OS is released? As Sebastian said, the future of A:M on the Mac is looking foggy.

 

What we're talking about missing in the OS came with plenty of warning. Apple switched from PPC chips to Intel in 2006. It's now 2013. Even Steffen has been warning for years that the day would come when the Mac version would be kaput.

[Rodney]

It seems more than a few companies got caught unawares by Apples latest release.

This came into my email box a few hours ago:

 

Toon Boom is working diligently to support Professional Products on the new Apple® Mac OS® X 10.9 Mavericks. Until further notice, we recommend that you do not upgrade to 10.9 as you may experience degraded performance and other unexpected behaviour.

 

Toon Boom is the maker of the industry standard 2D animation program's Animate/Animate Pro/Harmony, Toon Boom Studio, Storyboard Pro, Pencil Check Pro and some other well received programs.

 

Similarly to reports here, Animate Pro users report that earlier versions (Animate Pro 2.0) still work on Mavericks.

 

 

In other news: Apple reportedly included a last minute patch in the final release that didn't get publicly tested.

It broke some things that companies are now scrambling to resolve. It remains to be seen if problems stemming from that patch are related to issues reported here (or above).

[Fuchur]

Yeah, Apple does everything they do for the benefit of mankind, not for the money or their shareholders... I understand...

 

As I said before: It has advantages, but it is not developer friendly (which my whole post was about) nor the only way to go or the unarguably best way to do it. A linux-kind of way is more developer friendly and it unarguably brings other problems with it. Windows has problems in that direction too.

 

Don't get mad at me... I am just expressing myself and how I feel it as a developer of some kind and I daily face these problems when developing Apps for the iOS systems. It is just a very closed environment and it is very troublesome in many situations in which I try to think out of the box and it would be MUCH easier to develop everything on one computer of my choice and not on one computer of Apple's choice. I just do not like to be forced and Apple forces me very much...

 

It is Apple's fault that the software does not run no longer. I do not doubt that they have good reasons to do it, but they changed the OS in a way that older software can run into problems. The software has not started changing.

 

Since as soon as anybody will say something against Apple people will get angry, lets do an example with an imaginary company called "VaccuTopClean". (i just mad that one up... if a company like that exists, my honest appologizes that I have used the name of it):

 

You have a house with american jacks in it and tomorrow there are no longer vaccum cleaner available with compatible connections, who has broken the link? Your house or the guys who decided that other jacks are better? Even if they tell you 2 weeks before they change it, that they will change it: You will have to change your jacks and it will force you to buy new jacks, maybe even rebuilt your house if they changed more than just the connections and that will cost you money and time, not the vaccum cleaner company.

And now think of that and imagine, that when the vaccum cleaner companiy changes the connection they will even earn more money, because they will sell you the new hardware to make it compatible to the new jacks and the tools you need to make it compatible with it, because the new jacks can not be installed without a certain kind of tool only they can develope because they have made the tool in a way hat noone else can built it - not because the others are just less intelligent but because the company putted in a keylock only they have the key for... what would you say about that?

 

That is the easy truth behind it. The other truth is: You will very likely have to change your jacks because you just need a vaccum cleaner or your house is just not important enough to say something against it.

 

And that is, what Steffen needs to do now: Install new jacks to the house. Steffen will very likely have a look at the problem very soon and come back to us with more information about that.

If v16 is still working there is a quite good chance that he is able to do something about that problem...

 

See you

*Fuchur*

[robcat2075]

When v17 came out I had to upgrade to Windows 7 and build a new computer to run it on because v17 wouldn't run on windows 2000 anymore and Windows 7 wouldn't run on what i had for a computer.

 

I asked Steffen if he could make it still run on Windows 2000. No, the new compiler he uses now has many important advantages but it can't do windows 2K code. I would have to upgrade. A:M was the only reason i had to make that upgrade.

 

I didn't get all angry about Hash refusing to support its Windows 2000 users. My judgement was that it was easier to upgrade my computer than to learn a new 3D software. Those of you on the Mac may have to weigh that choice yourselves if the Mac version can't be retained.

 

If i told you there was a plugin for $80 that would make A:M run again on your computer you'd probably say that was worth it to not have to migrate to a different 3D program.

 

That's the cost of adding Windows to your Mac to run the PC version of A:M. $80

 

If it were me, I know I wouldn't blink at that because I already spent WAY more than that to stay A:M compatible on the PC. But that's me. I enjoy using A:M and I have zero interest in learning something else for 3D.

 

I recognize that it is more possible for me to accommodate A:M than the other way around. I recognize that Hash's options in all this are limited.

 

I'll note that Hash did indeed make the jump from Power PC code to Intel code when Apple made that change.

 

But since then there's been no way for it to be economically feasible to rewrite A:M completely to only use what is in the new operating system. It wouldn't matter if we were 20 years out instead of 7.

 

But if that were done it would be a completely separate program to maintain. My understanding is that now there is one code that Steffen maintains and the compiler can spit out Windows and Mac versions as needed. It's not as bad as having to maintain two differently written programs. In general you only have to add a feature once or fix a bug once to keep both versions equivalent to each other.

[largento]

Yeah, but that last minute patch almost entirely dealt with the Mail app. 9to5mac.com published a complete list of what was different between the two builds. One iCalc file was changed and an XML file involved with OpenCL bridge support changed. OpenCL was never implemented in A:M because Steffen ran into problems with differences in graphics cards and incompatibility with the A:M renderer.

 

Steffen has already identified the problem: "It looks like Apple has changed functions/entrypoints in the libstdc++"

 

I wish I knew anything about such things, but even googling this just brings back an ocean of silly string that I can't make heads nor tails of. :-)

 

I did see this, which might be something: "OS X 10.9 Mavericks is the first version to use libc++; previous versions of OS X used libstdc++"

 

This page seems to discuss the problems, too.

 

Specifically, it says this: "For every new package you install or update, you will have to re-install any of its dependencies that you previously installed on a previous version of OS X. This is because libstdc++ has been removed in favour of libc++, and things compiled with one aren't compatible with the other."

 

This would seem to jive with Steffen finding that A:M would run with old files in the library.

[Rodney]

Mark,

I had just visited that site and was debating whether to post a link to it.

Thanks for saving me some typing.

 

libstdc++... libc++... it's all libGreek to me.

[frosteternal]

I asked Steffen if he could make it still run on Windows 2000. No, the new compiler he uses now has many important advantages but it can't do windows 2K code. I would have to upgrade. A:M was the only reason i had to make that upgrade.

 

I didn't get all angry about Hash refusing to support its Windows 2000 users. My judgement was that it was easier to upgrade my computer than to learn a new 3D software. Those of you on the Mac may have to weigh that choice yourselves if the Mac version can't be retained.

 

If i told you there was a plugin for $80 that would make A:M run again on your computer you'd probably say that was worth it to not have to migrate to a different 3D program.

 

That's the cost of adding Windows to your Mac to run the PC version of A:M. $80

Expecting new software to run on an old system is not a generally expected feature. Expecting new software to run on THE CURRENT OS is not an unreasonable expectation.

If A:M had been natively coded in the first place for Mac we would NOT be having this problem now.

 

Paying $110 to install windows on a Mac is not a good solution either. Running a separate system compromises efficiency in workflow (ALL other software used is Mac Mavericks compatible) Also, that entails buying yet another license for A:M.

 

Unacceptable.

[robcat2075]

But it wasn't realistically possible to pure code it. Not realistically possible to start over and rebuild it from scratch after it was already done once in a way that Apple allowed.

 

Repeatedly saying it's "unacceptable" now won't make more possible for it to be possible.

 

If the cost of Windows (way less than $110) is the deal breaker for you, then it's a deal breaker for you, and you need to learn some other 3D program. If that inconvenience is smaller that running Windows, that's the way to go for you.

 

I know you want to be angry and want us to know you're angry but that won't get A:M recoded.

 

My suggestion is a simple solution that is proven to work. If you don't want to do that, then so be it.

[Rodney]

If A:M had been natively coded in the first place for Mac we would NOT be having this problem now.

 

Back in the day, Hash Inc had to develop code (custom libraries, etc.) that didn't exist in the Mac world from scratch to support A:M on the Mac.

Apple didn't have the tools for it yet (probably still doesn't) and certainly weren't going to build cross compilers to help push code toward their PC competitors.

So Hash Inc had to go the hard route to support their Mac users.

Which BTW, they gladly did.

 

In hindsight it's easy to surmise what should've been done where reality dictated it couldn't.

The real lesson learned here: Do not make major upgrades to your operating system in the middle of a production cycle.

This is especially true for those who are oft tempted to be early adopters.

The results: predictable.

[frosteternal]

But it wasn't realistically possible to pure code it. Not realistically possible to start over and rebuild it from scratch after it was already done once in a way that Apple allowed.

 

Repeatedly saying it's "unacceptable" now won't make more possible for it to be possible.

 

If the cost of Windows (way less than $110) is the deal breaker for you, then it's a deal breaker for you, and you need to learn some other 3D program. If that inconvenience is smaller that running Windows, that's the way to go for you.

 

I know you want to be angry and want us to know you're angry but that won't get A:M recoded.

 

My suggestion is a simple solution that is proven to work. If you don't want to do that, then so be it.

My point is that this a program we pay for. It isn't a hobby, it isn't a lark. This is a product that people pay for, and it does not work on the system that it is advertised to work on. That should be unacceptable to everyone.

I understand limited resources. But there is NO excuse for a commercial software program to be "maintained" by a single person in his "spare time".

No it won't be fixed by my being upset, but it's really only a matter of time before this kind of shoddy and unprofessional approach pinches someone on the windows version.

This really should concern everyone.

I have a been a loyal user of the software since 1994. That is almost TWENTY YEARS. I have purchased countless versions and upgrades, multiple licenses. No company in their right mind blows off long time users like this.

Again, I point out - WE KNEW THE OS UPGRADE WAS COMING IN ADVANCE.

The problem should have been tested and discovered IN ADVANCE.

This will affect new users as well as old.

Saying "buy a new license AND a new operating system" is not a fix. It's a kludge. And fairly useless.

Can't maintain the Mac version? Well then A:M needs to no longer be marketed as a Mac compatible application. Problem solved.

[frosteternal]

If A:M had been natively coded in the first place for Mac we would NOT be having this problem now.

 

Back in the day, Hash Inc had to develop code (custom libraries, etc.) that didn't exist in the Mac world from scratch to support A:M on the Mac.

Apple didn't have the tools for it yet (probably still doesn't) and certainly weren't going to build cross compilers to help push code toward their PC competitors.

So Hash Inc had to go the hard route to support their Mac users.

Which BTW, they gladly did.

 

In hindsight it's easy to surmise what should've been done where reality dictated it couldn't.

The real lesson learned here: Do not make major upgrades to your operating system in the middle of a production cycle.

This is especially true for those who are oft tempted to be early adopters.

The results: predictable.

That is not true. There was a conscious decision made to support one code base for both PC and Mac. It wasn't that the tools "weren't there" - A:M had been running a separate codebase, albeit a bit behind the Win version, for the PPC Macs. The decisions was made to use the cross-platform approach when Mac switched to Intel chips. It wasn't that there wasn't any other way, the easiest solution at the time was chosen. Now that that solution has begun to fall apart, perhaps it is time to re-evaluate the current efficacy of that path.

It still should have been caught before the new OS went live. 6 months is more than enough time to install a beta and notice that A:M doesn't launch.

Then there could have been a warning issued - not a fix, but a warning - not to upgrade until the problem was ironed out.

Over a week later, there still isn't a warning on the web store.

[Fuchur]

Just saw that it is not even a major-version-update from the OS (10 > 11). That is quite unlucky if you ask me... in general I would assume that at least till 11.0 they would have had a backwards compatibility preserving structure in the code.

Two minutes back I have received a newsletter from Mirye (Shade3d) that they now have an update to support the new OSX version. This update has not been available at the release day too...

 

Anyway, I have send Jason an email to put a note in the store to tell people that MacOSX 10.9 (Maverick) is not (yet) supported. I can see that that makes sense and should have been done a few days before, when the confusion about whether it runs or not was finally solved.

 

See you

*Fuchur*

[thefreshestever]

@ gerald: that´s only one way to see it. for me it´s only logical that when you develop an OS, you want to make it faster and better with every version. sometimes this means to get rid of some old ballast that slows the whole thing down. i doubt that apple doesn´t think thoroughly about making an OS incompatible with previous software versions.

 

@ jesse: i feel pretty much the same way. i think there was a chance back then, and in my opinion there have been many chances for hash in the past, just the wrong decisions were made. i know it´s easy for us to say now they should have done this and should have done that, but looking at a:m and comparing it to other 3d packages, i still believe it had the potential to be a much bigger player in the business, not despite the fact it works with patches instead of polys, more because of that. a:ms general workflow efficiency is still much better than most of the software out there. but there are things in a:m that are quite complicated to accomplish which can be done in other packages with just one or two clicks. it´s not always a bad idea to go out and look how others do it. it seems martin has lost any left piece of interest since TWO and SO didn´t turn out the way he imagined it, and he decided to let it go. for me THATS the real dealbreaker. if there are just users left who care about the future of a software, it can´t work forever unless it´s open source.

 

i´ve made my choice and i´m learning a new software. it´s not easy, but not thaaat hard, too... i still find myself trying to use a:m shortcuts and wondering why they didn´t make this or that like a:m does. but in other cases i often think "hey, that´s pretty clever, and much easier". for me it´s really a relief, because i was struggling with myself for years now, and never had the guts to jump into it. it´s also a relief to know i can do nearly everything i want if i know how, in some departments like particle simulations i felt limited with a:m, that´s not a:ms fault, just wasn´t their focus... compatibility is another thing, i don´t need a 3d package to be necessarily compatible with all other 3d apps, but i need it to be compatible with after effects and after effects plugins, since i do a lot of motion graphic stuff, too. 8 years ago when i first got into 3D a:m was the only software i could figure out, but now that i´ve learned so much about 3D in a:m other software isn´t all that hard to figure out anymore, most things are transferable. so i´ll always be grateful for that.

 

the thing i will miss the most ist the community here, this is by far the best and most supportive forum i know of. thanks for all the support and encouragement over all those years. please don´t be mad at me, it just would be the wrong choice for ME to stick with a:m, i hope everyone can understand that.

[Rodney]

Sebastian,

I'm not sure what to say.

I can't help but think you were already moving that direction.

 

It seems for the present a few doom and gloomers have once again convinced someone to put A:M on the shelf (for invalid reasons).

Way to convince Steffen maintaining A:M on the Mac isn't going to be worth the effort Mac heads!

 

A minor history lesson: Five to six years ago a group of A:M Users decided it was the end of the world because Ken Baer had left and there was no more hope for A:M on the Mac. Despite their dire predictions both Mac and PC versions have consistently improved since then. The tragedy of this... if they had continued to support A:M, we might not be at this 'Mavericks' debacle today.

 

How can we learn from the errors (all errors) of the past?

Perhaps those who prefer A:M can learn a new software to allay their fears while still supporting and using A:M?

Now, that'd be a novel concept.

 

By all means learn new software but save a few bucks and stick with A:M as well.

You'll have the best of all worlds for a few more dollars a year.

[frosteternal]

Sebastian,

I'm not sure what to say.

I can't help but think you were already moving that direction.

 

It seems for the present a few doom and gloomers have once again convinced someone to put A:M on the shelf (for invalid reasons).

Way to convince Steffen maintaining A:M on the Mac isn't going to be worth the effort Mac heads!

 

A minor history lesson: Five to six years ago a group of A:M Users decided it was the end of the world because Ken Baer had left and there was no more hope for A:M on the Mac. Despite their dire predictions both Mac and PC versions have consistently improved since then. The tragedy of this... if they had continued to support A:M, we might not be at this 'Mavericks' debacle today.

 

How can we learn from the errors (all errors) of the past?

Perhaps those who prefer A:M can learn a new software to allay their fears while still supporting and using A:M?

Now, that'd be a novel concept.

 

By all means learn new software but save a few bucks and stick with A:M as well.

You'll have the best of all worlds for a few more dollars a year.

 

Rodney, I'd be glad to stick with A:M as well as using other software. In fact, that's what I was doing, as I often use several programs to complete jobs. However, my favorite organic modeler just stopped working on my computer.I've always had a soft spot for A:M but if it can't be relied upon to launch after a routine upgrade (Mac users generally consider OS upgrades routine) then I can't rely upon it as a tool in my day to day workflow. Calling out people as "doom and gloom" when some of us express concern over a major failure (inability to launch software at all) that jeopardizes our work and income doesn't help either. A:M is a tool. If it breaks, expect people to be wary of a relying upon it. If the trouble with running A:M on the current OS is fixed, I will of course continue to use it, albeit cautiously. And other Mac users will too. But I think it is reasonable to expect that A:M going forward be made more modern and Mac compatible so that we don't have to live in fear of updating our computers.

[thefreshestever]

Sebastian,

I'm not sure what to say.

I can't help but think you were already moving that direction.

 

It seems for the present a few doom and gloomers have once again convinced someone to put A:M on the shelf (for invalid reasons).

Way to convince Steffen maintaining A:M on the Mac isn't going to be worth the effort Mac heads!

 

A minor history lesson: Five to six years ago a group of A:M Users decided it was the end of the world because Ken Baer had left and there was no more hope for A:M on the Mac. Despite their dire predictions both Mac and PC versions have consistently improved since then. The tragedy of this... if they had continued to support A:M, we might not be at this 'Mavericks' debacle today.

 

How can we learn from the errors (all errors) of the past?

Perhaps those who prefer A:M can learn a new software to allay their fears while still supporting and using A:M?

Now, that'd be a novel concept.

 

By all means learn new software but save a few bucks and stick with A:M as well.

You'll have the best of all worlds for a few more dollars a year.

 

rodney, i´m not saying i wont have a:m installed at least on one computer in the future (given that it still runs on a mac), but i want to have one 3D app to realize a project from start to end, i don´t want to have to switch between several programs all the time. so in most cases that won´t be a:m, because of many reasons:

1. as stated before, a:m has its limits, and given the circumstances the last couple of years it´s only logical.

2. a lot of stuff can be done more productively in other apps (some other stuff not, but for MY purposes in most cases this is true).

3. the renderer. it´s improved a lot, but still slow compared to others. that alone wouldn´t be dramatic, but i have to say i like the look of some other renderers better.

you might say it depends on what you do with it, and that´s partially true, but there are renderers that have a special kind of look. it´s a matter of taste, and i´m sure you can create almost every look with a:m, but it always means a lot of tinkering to achieve what some other renderers just spit out like that.

 

i´d still recommend a:m for everyone it is suitable for. if i´d only do cartooney character animation and the future of a:m would be a bit more secure i´d propably stick with a:m for the rest of my life, but 3D is becoming more and more essential in my job, i need it for printdesign, product design, motion graphics and of course character animation, too... but once i´m comfortable with another app, there will be no need to come back to a:m very often. i´m just beeing realistic, if i can do everything in one app and can improve my skills everytime i´m doing something in that app, what would be the reason to come back to a:m that much? let´s say next week some client comes along and wants a character animation done, and there´s enough time, no tight deadline. i´d do it in the other app, because that would mean i´d learn a bunch of stuff. if i´d do it with a:m that would mean i´d miss the opportunity to learn how the other software works. that wouldn´t be all to clever i think... and since the next couple of years i will be learning by everthing i´m doing in this app, i´ll take that opportunity.

 

but as i said before, i´ll probably have an a:m version running on at least one machine. in the beginning for savety, later more for nostalgic reasons i guess.

[Rodney]

Sebastian said:

the thing i will miss the most ist the community here

 

Sebastian,

I might have read too much in to this then?

 

For what it's worth I understand the frustration but many a bad decision is made in that state.

If this community is important to you don't let others convince you to burn that bridge down.

 

 

 

Jesse said:

I think it is reasonable to expect that A:M going forward be made more modern and Mac compatible so that we don't have to live in fear of updating our computers.

 

Jesse,

First let me apologize for just grabbing an isolated sentence out of your post... there is too much to respond to and still be brief.

 

I really should be starting my response by saying 'Thanks' for discovering and reporting that A:M wasn't running on Mavericks.

Because you installed Mavericks immediately upon release (perhaps even had it running prior to official release) you were the ideal person to get the word out of incompatibilities with A:M.

The fact that several other companies experienced the same unexpected jolt of reality (despite the beta being out there for the time that you state) and have already begun to release initial fixes (pending validation) bodes well. That alone should encourage folks to be optimistic that a fix for A:M on Mavericks is on the way. (At least the primary cause of the problem is known)

 

I've debated with myself how best to respond to you and have edited myself on multiple occasions because what I had written was sure to make things worse rather than better.

You've made some assumptions that only time and reflection might serve to convince you otherwise.

The bottom line is that you aren't some newbie. You surely know a lot of what you've been saying is hyperbole.

You are good with words, so use them wisely.

 

i´m just beeing realistic

 

As are we all.

[largento]

Guys, we're just spinning our wheels here.

 

Let's everyone back off and wait for the verdict from Steffen.

[thefreshestever]

rodney, i didn´t mean to say i will never come back here, but since i will be mostly realizing stuff in another app, it doesn´t make all too much sense to post my questions here. and i certainly can´t post wips and finished projects here, since this is the a:m forum, not a software independent cg-forum. this won´t stop me from visiting once in a while, it´s more like moving to another city and visiting friends and family from time to time... so yeah, i´ll be missing you guys for sure!!! who knows, maybe i´m moving back home someday because i´m sick of polys, but for now i want to explore the big city.

[yoda64]

After a week I have spent for trying to solve the problem with Maverick , I have a solution , but I'm not happy with this solution ,it's in my eyes a dirty hack ..., but nothing other has worked

This solution will be integrated in the installers , but they are not up to date yet .

So I have made temporary fix , which You can download

After unpack this file , open a terminal window (/Applications/Utilities/Terminal.app) , navigate to the directory , where you have unpacked the archive and type

"./install_libs" , then Your password is asked , type it in , and the needed libaries are installed in the correct place (/opt/local/lib) .

I have tried to make this more userfriendly with Platypus , but this program doesn't work correct on Maverick too .

 

A general word about the future for the mac version (from my point of view).

 

After I have read the posts in this thread , my personal conclusion "end of life for the mac version" .

 

I wouldn't spent more time on it ,I don't recreate around 200 xcode projectfiles, which where needed to compile A:M under 10.9 (the XCode version I'm using yet doesn't run on 10.9 -> Kernel panic ) ,

no'r I'm switching to Clang/LLVM (the apple favoured compiler),

no'r buying a new mac (which would be necessary for the next osx version, I assume in the next year ...) .

 

If there is another developer , who would maintain the mac version in the future , all changes are in the svn ...., good look .

 

Regards

Steffen

 

Added: Jason has posted the fix/update for Mac OS Mavericks here for downloading: v17g+

Note: There is no change to the Windows version from v17 to v17g+.

[Rodney]

Great turn around Steffen. You are a machine.

(In this case that's a very good thing)

[largento]

Thanks, Steffen ...and I agree.

 

I wrote a long post I was going to put on the fellows board, but stopped myself, waiting to hear what you found out.

 

Short of getting a new developer who can basically work on a second app, it's not viable to continue. Your time could be better spent on your own life or improving/adding to the Windows version.

 

It's disappointing, but it makes the most logical sense.

[thefreshestever]

thanks, steffen... much appreciated... i can understand your frustration and even not wanting to maintain the mac version any longer, as sad as it is... i´m sure you have a life outside of coding a:m, it sounds very time consuming... again, thanks for all the effort and keeping it alive for so long.

[NancyGormezano]

And thank you Steffen for maintaining the Windows version. You do an amazing job!

 

BTW, when I upgrade my PC system, I will be looking at getting whatever configuration you use, as I saw that you had the fastest render time going for the benchmark project in this thread.

[robcat2075]

I'm Facebook friends with one of the former A:M programmers. He still programs for the Mac in his current job so he definitely knows what that involves. I asked him to estimate the programmer-hours it would take to rewrite A:M as a real MacOS app.

 

He said it would take two years full-time to get it rewritten and stable. That's with six programmers, not one.

 

I believe he's right because he astutely noted that v5 and v9 were indeed rewrites from scratch for A:M and that's how long it took Hash's six, full-time programmers to rewrite the code and get it stable. That was with people who had written the originals and knew all about what was going on in it.

 

If you were using A:M in the v5 or v9 days you know those were pretty disastrous for stability. That's what created all the anti-Hash trolls that populate places like CGTalk. There's no way going through that again would be good for A:M and there's no way one person would be able to step in and rewrite it anyway. It's unrealistic to demand that Steffen rewrite A:M for the Mac.

 

There's no way in the past even six people would ever have been able to devote that time to just a Mac version. The only way it's been practical to have the Mac version is the current cross-development method where one code base can be used to make both Windows and Mac versions. Now even that economy is not working well.

 

It's not Steffen's fault or the fault of all the previous A:M programmers that A:M is not coded specifically for MacOS, it was a practical solution to the cost of creating and maintaining a program that can't survive just on Mac sales.

[largento]

I'd certainly hope that nobody is attempting to fault Steffen for any of this ...and if they are/were, they were clearly proceeding from ignorance.

 

I gave this a lot of thought in September when the harbinger of this came to me and I think the only real option would be if a company was interested in developing it under license from Hash or having bought it. It's just too large a job and we would be back to the days of feature-envy where one app could do one thing another couldn't. Knowing that it would take two years of investment before they could even have it up and running, would be a huge obstacle, too.

 

Not that we've gotten any indication from Hash what (if) there are any future plans, but that doesn't seem a likely one and in the current 3D space, who would want to try to come in with something new?

 

Personally, I made the decision to have Windows as a back-up and once The Wobbling Dead is finished, I'll start over again with something new. It will be beneficial to learn how the other guys do it and who knows, maybe it'll get me some work and I can climb back over that cliff I jumped off of 4 years ago. :-)

 

I certainly won't regret the time spent using A:M. It's been a blast, and as long as some version of it still exists, I'm sure I'll still be supporting it.

[frosteternal]

...

So I have made temporary fix , which You can download ....

 

Thank you very much. It works like a dream, temporary fix or not.

 

THANK YOU VERY MUCH

[frosteternal]

I'd certainly hope that nobody is attempting to fault Steffen for any of this ...and if they are/were, they were clearly proceeding from ignorance.

...

I certainly won't regret the time spent using A:M. It's been a blast, and as long as some version of it still exists, I'm sure I'll still be supporting it.

Agreed 100%

[Fuchur]

@ gerald: that´s only one way to see it. for me it´s only logical that when you develop an OS, you want to make it faster and better with every version. sometimes this means to get rid of some old ballast that slows the whole thing down. i doubt that apple doesn´t think thoroughly about making an OS incompatible with previous software versions.

 

Most other software companies do not think that way and include some sort of backup routine which will only be loaded if needed (and like that will not slow down anything noticeable but if at all make the installer a little bit bigger). You still can open old Illustrator files in Adobe Illustrator (or any other Adobe product I have used), you can still run software from Windows 98 on Windows 7, you can still open Word files from Word XP / 2000 (even better, they provide you a tool that you can even open Word files from Word 2010 in Word XP / 2000). All major browsers still support HTML 1.0 even so we are at HTML 5.0 level.... and we can go on with that list.

 

In general it should be said that Apple does stop support for some things each and every version of the OS they make public, not only at a few occasions as other softwarecompanies are doing it. (for instance Windows dropped DOS support... but that was wenn DOS was mostly gone for 20 years...)

 

We can argue about that further on and as I said there are certain reasons which can be a factor but all in all I would say these are the real main reasons for Apple behind it:

- keeping backwardcompatibility is harder to accomplish and it is much easier to write code as you wish but to have to look for the backward compatibility, which costs Apple money. > bad for Apple

- Forcing everybody to upgrade as often as possible will earn money. > good for Apple

- keeping the keylock at Apple gives them a monopolistic kind of power. > good for Apple

 

This makes sense from a corporate point of view but is bad for customers, because they have to put more money into that, even if the hardware / software they have would be sufficient for their needs.

It is like buying a new car every week. Yes of course you always have the newest car. But is the old car that bad? No.

 

And with all the money you are spending for them they will do it gladly again because they can and want more money. And while they are at it, they will change for instance the music-player on the updates too... and first they will drop support for CDs, than for USB-drives and tomorrow for the Cloud-stuff and so on. And each update will give them more money and cost the customer (you) money.

 

I am developing an own CMS and I have to look for backward-compatibility often. I do it, because I could not give anybody a good reason why s/he should pay for something that worked perfectly a day before and is not working at all today while they did not do anything to cause that. "Sorry Sir... your toilet does not work anymore because I did not like the color of the tubes to connect it and we just got rid of them... if you want to get it running again, buy a tube in gold next time. But be aware that I may like blue better tomorrow and you will have to change the tube again, but today we will just go with gold... and like life plays: I have gold tubes here... do you want to buy some?"

 

See you

*Fuchur*

[Fuchur]

I'd certainly hope that nobody is attempting to fault Steffen for any of this ...and if they are/were, they were clearly proceeding from ignorance.

 

I gave this a lot of thought in September when the harbinger of this came to me and I think the only real option would be if a company was interested in developing it under license from Hash or having bought it. It's just too large a job and we would be back to the days of feature-envy where one app could do one thing another couldn't. Knowing that it would take two years of investment before they could even have it up and running, would be a huge obstacle, too.

 

Not that we've gotten any indication from Hash what (if) there are any future plans, but that doesn't seem a likely one and in the current 3D space, who would want to try to come in with something new?

 

Personally, I made the decision to have Windows as a back-up and once The Wobbling Dead is finished, I'll start over again with something new. It will be beneficial to learn how the other guys do it and who knows, maybe it'll get me some work and I can climb back over that cliff I jumped off of 4 years ago. :-)

 

I certainly won't regret the time spent using A:M. It's been a blast, and as long as some version of it still exists, I'm sure I'll still be supporting it.

 

Thank you very much Steffen for all the support and all your hard work. I think if Apple does not support multiplatform development any longer, this is the only step you could do.

 

See you

*Fuchur*

[markw]

Well this is all very sad, if not unexpected, news about the Mac version of A:M. :(

So first let me also thank Steffen for all he has done to keep it going this long, a remarkable achievement.

 

But dose Mac A:M have to die just yet?

The original problem, that of A:M not launching on OS10.9, Steffen has managed to fix. Maybe its not a pretty fix by Steffens standards but it works. So if that was the only problem with it on 10.9 why can we not carry on using it for now?

Whilst I too have to agree that it is no longer worth the time and effort to progress the Mac version further, in terms of trying to keep up with Apple forever moving the goal posts with new versions of OSX, could A:M not at least be maintained as far as keeping it working for OS10.8 and indeed 10.9 if the launch problem was the only major incompatibility?

But make it clear to everyone that this is it, the last version of Mac A:M. When next Apple tinker with the OS there will be no new update.

I can see that someone using A:M commercially will not want to be using legacy software like this, but some of us existing hobbyist users might be able to get another year or two out of it yet.

There is also the question of v18, Steffen has already got an Alpha version out that some here are currently using. Is that to be spiked as of now? That would seem a shame and a waste of the work he has put into it so far.

[thefreshestever]

Well this is all very sad, if not unexpected, news about the Mac version of A:M. :(

So first let me also thank Steffen for all he has done to keep it going this long, a remarkable achievement.

 

But dose Mac A:M have to die just yet?

The original problem, that of A:M not launching on OS10.9, Steffen has managed to fix. Maybe its not a pretty fix by Steffens standards but it works. So if that was the only problem with it on 10.9 why can we not carry on using it for now?

Whilst I too have to agree that it is no longer worth the time and effort to progress the Mac version further, in terms of trying to keep up with Apple forever moving the goal posts with new versions of OSX, could A:M not at least be maintained as far as keeping it working for OS10.8 and indeed 10.9 if the launch problem was the only major incompatibility?

But make it clear to everyone that this is it, the last version of Mac A:M. When next Apple tinker with the OS there will be no new update.

I can see that someone using A:M commercially will not want to be using legacy software like this, but some of us existing hobbyist users might be able to get another year or two out of it yet.

There is also the question of v18, Steffen has already got an Alpha version out that some here are currently using. Is that to be spiked as of now? That would seem a shame and a waste of the work he has put into it so far.

 

nobody said you can´t carry on using it for now... and i suppose the fix will work for v18 as well, so of course, mac users can use a:m for another year or two. but after that it will be gone as it seems...

[Rodney]

Steffen said:

 

If there is another developer , who would maintain the mac version in the future , all changes are in the svn ...., good look .

 

Can someone point me to this SVN link (I assume the changes referred to here are not the old online SDK).

Don't worry... there is zero chance of me ever developing and maintaining the mac version of A:M.

I might however, learn a great deal about A:M that would further expand my understanding.

[yoda64]

But dose Mac A:M have to die just yet?

 

Not yet , V18 will also be avaible for OSX ,

what I mean is , that a upcoming OSX version after 10.9 may be not longer supported , when Apple removing frameworks which are needed for A:M and no workaround exists (and I wouldn't spent so much time as yet to find a workaround) .

[markw]

... V18 will also be avaible for OSX...

:)

[GAngus]

... V18 will also be avaible for OSX...

:)

 

Yes, I too, am saddened to read the news about the Mac versions of A:M.

 

I fully appreciate Hashs' situation and am happy to have been using A:M all these years and I still have most of the CD/DVD versions back to 2002. I have an old G4 PowerMac MMD (2003 vintage) that I use A:M with, but they dropped the PowerMac support at about Vers.14c, at which time I kept current for a while with A:M on an old windows Laptop with WinXP.

 

I would be considered a hobbyist at best, but I find this type of software quite fascinating and still enjoy working with A:M and a few other CAD/3D Apps. I visit the forums daily to keep up with things and do apologize for not participating that much. My day job keeps me hopping and at 72 it gets harder and harder getting up on those ladders every day. I do exterior house painting, 45 years now.

 

I finally treated myself to a new iMac this summer and Hash was nice enough to allow me to transfer my current PC subscription over to it without any additional charge. A:M works quite well on OSX Mountain Lion (10.8.5). It even loads most of my old A:M Models/Projects from many years ago.

 

I chose to hold-off on the latest Apple update and glad of it, with the thousands of posts I see on the Apple forums. Although, it seems, that there are even many thousands more, who have been totally successful with the upgrade. Mostly those with newer machines.

 

Actually, I plan to get an external drive and dual-boot Mavericks for a while and migrate over to it over time, after they get some of the bugs fixed, and there are definitely a few in there. After all, it is a XX.0 release and it should be expected.

 

I plan to use any Mac A:M versions that remain available to the end.

Long Live Hash & A:M.

P.S. Yay Stephen

[Rodney]

Jason has posted the fix/update for Mac OS Mavericks here for downloading: v17g+

Note: There is no change to the Windows version from v17 to v17g+.

[largento]

Jason has posted the fix/update for Mac OS Mavericks here for downloading: v17g+

Note: There is no change to the Windows version from v17 to v17g+.

 

Awesome!

[robcat2075]

Yay! Thanks, Steffen and Jason!

 

 

Why, that little bump caused barely a ripple.

[frosteternal]

This is awesome. Thank you so much!

[a.quaihoi]

Seriously run a kickstarter campaign or take in donations if Hash needs resources for a full blown Mac version and I will be the first one to donate and while you're at it, might as well make a iOS version that runs on iPad - in NATIVE code - there are kazzlions of freelance developers that could do the conversion for a native mac version for $15k USD, I've been doing app development like this over the past couple of years and its working a treat - seriously get on it HASH - you owe us mac users !

[Rodney]

You don't need kazzlions if one will suffice.

With your donation of $15K USD that'll get that programmer off to a great start.

[a.quaihoi]

I'm using Yosemite and it still has the issues with opening files through the system interface, OpenGL & OpenGL 3 seems to work intermittently for previewing decals in shaded wireframe, rotoscopes come in garbled some times as do the textures, if I go into options and toggle between OpenGL & OpenGL 3 its seems to resolve it for the current model I'm working on, if AM needs to be rebuilt natively for Mac, how about taking in donations to get more programmers on board for the Mac version ?? Kickstarter it or something, I for one would be the first to donate - I am sure the Mac community users would do the same if we got a native version of AM and while you're at it, why not develop a iPad app version as well, there are plenty of developers out there, I have been developing software with freelancer developers and building a app for Mac / iOS is very easy to do for the other platform - so if you are making a Mac version its quite easy to churn out an iOS version without re writing a whole new app - something to think about, I'm ready to donate for a native mac version ! Other things I would like is an alignment tool set - for points / objects as they work in vector apps ike Illustrator - that would be a god send when making mechanics objects !!

[a.quaihoi]

Hey Rodney - seriously you need to work out time / development cost to rewrite the app - then you will have a figure and tell us the community about it, I am surprised no ones put up a " petition " to " market research " how many Mac users are on here and how many of them would donate for a re written Mac App - then you would get an idea of feasibility of it actually happening instead of playing table tennis, then tell US - meaning the community as all users of AM are a real community - we use it coz we love it plain and simple. In the rebuild there could be so much more input from users to really make it shine. So please work it out and put up a petition post or something like that , " hey we are thinking about making a new mac version from the ground up and we need your help, who amongst you would like us to that, this is what its going to cost and it is going to take this long, if you donate this much, you can be in the beat testing and if you put this much, you can have a lifetime subscription etc. etc. etc. " $15k I don't have as spare change, but I am making a control pad case for iPhone which if it is successful will allow me to indulge in donating that much and more for a native version, I'll do it coz I'm crazy, but in the meantime ask the community after all we use your software, go on do it, I dare you ;-)

[Rodney]

While I'm glad to be associated with A:M, I'm a user of the software just like you (minus the Mac).

I'm still waiting for some Mac user to donate me a Mac so I can troubleshoot.

[markw]

Hey Rodney - seriously you need to work out time / development cost to rewrite the app - then you will have a figure and tell us the community about it, I am surprised no ones put up a " petition " to " market research " how many Mac users are on here and how many of them would donate for a re written Mac App - then you would get an idea of feasibility of it actually happening instead of playing table tennis, then tell US - meaning the community as all users of AM are a real community - we use it coz we love it plain and simple. In the rebuild there could be so much more input from users to really make it shine. So please work it out and put up a petition post or something like that , " hey we are thinking about making a new mac version from the ground up and we need your help, who amongst you would like us to that, this is what its going to cost and it is going to take this long, if you donate this much, you can be in the beat testing and if you put this much, you can have a lifetime subscription etc. etc. etc. " $15k I don't have as spare change, but I am making a control pad case for iPhone which if it is successful will allow me to indulge in donating that much and more for a native version, I'll do it coz I'm crazy, but in the meantime ask the community after all we use your software, go on do it, I dare you ;-)

Please somebody at Hash take this post by a.quaihoi seriously and look into this.

I'm job less and nearly homeless right now but I would still try and find money from somewhere to put into a crowd funded development of the Mac A:M.

Also let me say that Steffen has done great things keeping the Mac version going all by himself this long and I salute him for that but he is just one man.

[a.quaihoi]

Hey all long time no see, I just downloaded the 18p update, so far so good on early 2008 Mac Pro running El Capitan, well nothing unusual for AM, working on a few things with Dylan from the ole Momentum Animations still got that irritating redraw thing with rotoscopes coming becoming garbled and having to switch between Open GL / 3 etc.

[Roger]

On 5/5/2015 at 8:24 PM, Rodney said:

While I'm glad to be associated with A:M, I'm a user of the software just like you (minus the Mac).

I'm still waiting for some Mac user to donate me a Mac so I can troubleshoot.

I've got a spare quad core i7 with I think 8GB if you're interested.  

[Rodney]

Very interested Roger!