Admin Rodney Posted September 12, 2007 Author Admin Posted September 12, 2007 When you say the various rendering settings you mean shaded, wire and shaded, wire etc? Or am I thinking of something else? I will give it a try tonight! I figure that I will test the possibilities, but my first priority is getting to #6 or 7 so I can help out on the movie. Then I will start playing a lot more Thats exactly what I mean. Its more as an introduction to the possibilities than anything... a break from the work if you will. If you ever get stuck... ever get frustrated... break away and explore A:M a bit. Right Click on everything... break stuff! Then you'll be ready to come back to 'the work' again. The same applies outside A:M as well of course. Keep friends and family close. Engage yourself in other non-A:M related activities. Explore the outside world. But... you knew all this stuff already right? I'm the one thats still learning. Added: There is a sub-exercise I'd like to add to Exercise 1 that introduces some simple lighting and textures manipulation. Its not so much about setting these up as exploring all the buttons, bells and whistles that are already there! There is a whole lot to discover in A:M. Quote
Shamrock12 Posted September 12, 2007 Posted September 12, 2007 Thats exactly what I mean. Its more as an introduction to the possibilities than anything... a break from the work if you will. If you ever get stuck... ever get frustrated... break away and explore A:M a bit. Right Click on everything... break stuff! Then you'll be ready to come back to 'the work' again. The same applies outside A:M as well of course. Keep friends and family close. Engage yourself in other non-A:M related activities. Explore the outside world. But... you knew all this stuff already right? I'm the one thats still learning. Added: There is a sub-exercise I'd like to add to Exercise 1 that introduces some simple lighting and textures manipulation. Its not so much about setting these up as exploring all the buttons, bells and whistles that are already there! There is a whole lot to discover in A:M. Haha, I'm getting the distinct feeling that A:M has some addictive properties? I think your idea of taking a break and just messing around with the program is a good one. As long as I don't do it on the actual exercise and have to start over! If I just start a new choreography and play a little it would probably be good for me. I tend to learn by making mistakes... after a few tries anyways I must admit though... we're already talking about moving our computer into the family room so I see people and puppies more. Not to mention TV, once Heroes is back on I can't be hidden in the basement! But then, I do brochures, logos and websites for people on the side, and take nightschool to learn new programs (tonight: Macromedia Fireworks), so I am on the computer a lot. Balance is an acquired skill that I am working on acquiring Lighting and textures manipulation? Will that be posted in the Exercise 1 forum? Quote
Admin Rodney Posted September 12, 2007 Author Admin Posted September 12, 2007 Lighting and textures manipulation? Will that be posted in the Exercise 1 forum? We have to create it first but "Yes" I think it will. I have a similar experience with moving my computer to the front room from a few years ago from the guest bedroom. I think my family forgot who I was. Now... they seem to have gotten over that and they just send me to the basement. I have learned a lot along the way though. For instance, "Papa, Mama says come to dinner" means "Right now...or you won't eat anything!" I have very little interest in being a starving animator ya' know. Quote
Shamrock12 Posted September 12, 2007 Posted September 12, 2007 We have to create it first but "Yes" I think it will. I have a similar experience with moving my computer to the front room from a few years ago from the guest bedroom. I think my family forgot who I was. Now... they seem to have gotten over that and they just send me to the basement. I have learned a lot along the way though. For instance, "Papa, Mama says come to dinner" means "Right now...or you won't eat anything!" I have very little interest in being a starving animator ya' know. Haha, I was going to set up a home office, but with two little dogs and a lot of white carpet I think I should just go for the front hall! Have you considered a bar fridge and a microwave? They could fit neatly under your desk. Pizza pockets and eggo waffles can get you a long way, you know. Thank god my husband cooks, I would have scurvy by now! Quote
phatso Posted September 13, 2007 Posted September 13, 2007 I've accidentally deleted exercises and found that to be a good thing. The second time is faster, and I don't have to figure out everything as I go along. The third time it's a slam dunk, and 1/10th the time it first took. A:M does indeed have addictive qualities, and they show up at slam dunk time. Suddenly you're like God. Quote
fae_alba Posted September 13, 2007 Posted September 13, 2007 I think I have figured it out enough to post Exercise 2... do we post #1 as well? Please do. If you skip one we get all confused. My suggestion for additional credit/experience with Exercise 1 is to experiment and explore the various rendering settings. While you'll get into these later in the TaoA:M manual there it'll help to know what to look for. Don't be afraid to test out the possibilities! (but... um... keep focused) Most of all... have fun. Animation may be work but fun is what this is all about. Whether you make a million $ working at Pixar or stick to your own creations, don't ever...Ever...EVER... forget that. Whoa, wait a minute, you can earm a million $'s working at Pixar!?! I so gotta get my artsy daughter a job there so she can support me in my senile years! But Rodney is right about experimentation (with A:M that is). Observing cause and effect is the best way to learn. Quote
Shamrock12 Posted September 13, 2007 Posted September 13, 2007 Whoa, wait a minute, you can earm a million $'s working at Pixar!?! I so gotta get my artsy daughter a job there so she can support me in my senile years! But Rodney is right about experimentation (with A:M that is). Observing cause and effect is the best way to learn. You know, I missed the millions part... does Pixar have a Canadian branch? Because I think my mom is counting on me for the same thing, sigh. It's true though, nothing solidifies everything you've learned more than screwing it up and trying desperately to get it back (or having to do it again) Quote
Admin Rodney Posted September 13, 2007 Author Admin Posted September 13, 2007 Whoa, wait a minute, you can earm a million $'s working at Pixar!?! hehe... I said some would make a million $. I didn't say who would get to keep the majority of all that $ though. Making money is a good thing... it pays the bills, puts food on the table and lets us buy new and fancy things. But I've heard there are much more important things than these. All this could be just rumor though. If only life were as simple as TaoA:M Exercise 1. Quote
fae_alba Posted September 13, 2007 Posted September 13, 2007 Whoa, wait a minute, you can earm a million $'s working at Pixar!?! Making money is a good thing... it pays the bills, puts food on the table and lets us buy new and fancy things. But I've heard there are much more important things than these. All this could be just rumor though. Ah, utopia utopia, where art thou? Mony also pays the pesky college tuition bills (I'll be up to paying for four this time next year!) Quote
EL Wire Posted September 17, 2007 Posted September 17, 2007 Hi there! EL Wire from Norway here! I just got my A:M program in the SnailMail today. I have no experience with 3D programs but I'm exited to learn how to use it. : ) Quote
spitts Posted September 30, 2007 Posted September 30, 2007 Okay, now I'm finally a member of the fam!!! I've been browsing, peeking, poking, and eyeballing some of the works of this A:M fam and I'm really inspired by the talent! I just got my copy today and hope to produce some good stuff in the near future.....YEAH!!! Quote
phatso Posted October 1, 2007 Posted October 1, 2007 Howdy Spitts! Fair warning - until you gain mastery, you will frequently be running into what seem like confusing dead-ends. Follow the tutorials mouse-click for mouse-click, pay attention to every word, and remember that whatever answers you can't find there, you can find here. It's a little like learning magic. Maybe we should call this place Hashworts. Or Hogmaster. Quote
bulpup Posted October 10, 2007 Posted October 10, 2007 Well hey All. I am Dave and I live in New York City. I am currently trying to come down off of 16 months deployment with the Army Reserve in Northern Iraq as Truck Mechanic/Combat Recovery/ Avid Media Composer instructor (really, check the pic). I have worked in Broadcasting for the last 22 years in one way or another. The vast majority of it as a freelance Non-linear video editor. The job sickened me at the onset of reality TV so I went for the techy end of it in the last 5 years. Right now I work at Fuse and MSG-NY (a word of advice turn down your audio if you click this link, And I am not a 33 year old woman). Currently studying business administration so I can start and run my own business, then let it earn some income while I take editing jobs that I want to do. Reality TV need not apply. also trying to learn A:M because A) I always wanted to animate but can't draw. and I promised my wife I would do a rendition of her fathers WWII story. It involves a wooden Minesweeper, a Typhoon and a deserted Pacific Island just after the battle of Okinawa. So there I was in the middle of the war and the only AVID edit system in Iraq finds me! I taught them many things on that machine many things......and they listened to none of it LOL. So far I have skipped the Tute's and started making my own C172. It's a model of the one learned to fly in. I must admit though I did toy with the program long ago but never did anything with it. Quote
Admin Rodney Posted October 10, 2007 Author Admin Posted October 10, 2007 Hi Dave! Welcome to the A:M Community. From one guy in dusty uniform to another much respect goes out to you for your service. It sounds like you've got quite a project ahead of you. Good luck and let us know if there is anything you need. There are several pilots running around this forum (I'm NOT one of them). But Martin Hash certainly is. Again... welcome! Rodney (A belated welcome to Spitts and El Wire too!) Quote
bulpup Posted October 11, 2007 Posted October 11, 2007 Thanks! Right now I am getting involved in some contour map to 3D animation for a Land Navigation class. Next is the research for the models. Fun stuff really. Hi Dave! Welcome to the A:M Community. From one guy in dusty uniform to another much respect goes out to you for your service. It sounds like you've got quite a project ahead of you. Good luck and let us know if there is anything you need. There are several pilots running around this forum (I'm NOT one of them). But Martin Hash certainly is. Again... welcome! Rodney Quote
Kristin Posted October 12, 2007 Posted October 12, 2007 Hello fellow Newbies! I am taking a course on 3D amination from Steve, and am being "advised" to check out the forums while we work thru the manual. I've made it thru 3 weeks now of the class, and am just about to start on exercise 7. Thought I'd introduce myself, cause I'm sure I'll be trollin the forums for the next few weeks! =D ~Kristin Quote
SKGhost Posted October 12, 2007 Posted October 12, 2007 Gooday peoples, guess im new here too! Well, i dont guess , I know . Anyways, I'm using this program in a class im taking and I am pretty impressed with the results of what im getting. I've used 3DS Max for the last few years so when I first opened this I had some issues at first getting around this program. But after I got around it I was on my way to animation! Just figured I'd say hello! Payton Quote
Admin Rodney Posted October 12, 2007 Author Admin Posted October 12, 2007 Welcome to the A:M Forum Kristin and Payton! Make yourselves right at home. Quote
the_black_mage Posted October 31, 2007 Posted October 31, 2007 sup dude, you'll love it here! we have cake....good cake too...and it has a little yellow guy sticking out of it..... Quote
Camillo Posted November 9, 2007 Posted November 9, 2007 Hello, New to the forum. I will introduce my self. My name is Camillo, and I'm one of the Older Generation. And started Animation on the board, you know 2D cells. Filming in 8 and 16mm. I tried my hand at Claymation and other endevors in stop motion, but they are space intensive, and I couldn't manage to keep the sets together. I spent a lot of time in graphic art (most befor computers) using a lot of wax for those who know. My first computer was a VIC 20. I had a chance to work for a company in Utah working on 3D films for motion simulators, and even directed one. I discovered A:M at Comdex in Las Vegas and started with V8.5 what has it been 5 or six years? I recently upgraded to V13 and Now V14. I like the changes after I got use to them. Over the years I've done a lot of tests and honed modeling skills. I have recently (8 months) been working on what I am calling my student film, "Alien Invasion" . It will be about 8 Min long, or perhaps longer if I keep re-writing and adding. I'm attaching a still from one of the scenes. Comments would be nice. At this point I kind of feel isolated. If you read this---- "Thanks for noticing me" Camillo Favaro III Claremore, Oklahoma Quote
martin Posted November 9, 2007 Posted November 9, 2007 If you read this---- "Thanks for noticing me" Smile. (And your film looks good too!) Quote
Dhar Posted November 10, 2007 Posted November 10, 2007 Glad to meet you Camillo That looks like winner film you got there. Please keep us up to date with it. Wish you all the best. Quote
Admin Rodney Posted November 11, 2007 Author Admin Posted November 11, 2007 I discovered A:M at Comdex in Las Vegas and started with V8.5 what has it been 5 or six years? cough. cough. I think we have that Comdex in common Camillo. Thats where I first met the fine folks at Hash Inc myself. It was... cough... November or December of 1994 as I recall. A bit more than 5 years. You aren't alone here my friend. Join in the fun. Edit: You are probably talking about a later Comdex of course if it was v8.5. Perhaps 1998? Quote
Camillo Posted November 11, 2007 Posted November 11, 2007 Thanks Rodney, I guess 98 sounds about right. Time goes by fast when you get old. The first couple of years I din't have enough time to work with A:M, and I am just now starying to feel I'm making good progress. Some times sitting at the Computer I realize that it's 5 in the morning and I should be in bed. I'm not real confortable posting on the forum but I'm trying. I need the contact with someone who understands and thinks the way I do about creating. Camillo Quote
Admin Rodney Posted November 11, 2007 Author Admin Posted November 11, 2007 I'm not real confortable posting on the forum but I'm trying. I need the contact with someone who understands and thinks the way I do about creating. Many people aren't but stick with us and you'll be glad you did. You are bound to make some good friends and learn a lot in the process too. I know I have. After purchasing A:M back in '98 (after waiting 4 incredibly stupid years!) I lurked in the background of the old animaster email list. That was the worst mistake I could have ever made. I can never recover that lost time. I should have gotten involved! But... that's cool. Life happens. I had other priorities. I learned a lot by lurking. Here in the A:M Forum you are among others of like mind and interests. Like you they are here mastering computer animation and telling their stories. One spline at a time. Animation is tough... its frustrating... at times its utterly and ridiculously impossible. But mostly its fun! Its even more fun when you are on the journey with others. Quote
phatso Posted November 11, 2007 Posted November 11, 2007 Mage, that is one seriously scary avatar. You haven't been taking Ax Murderer lessons, have you? Quote
3Ddoofus Posted November 13, 2007 Posted November 13, 2007 Hi One and All, Felt I should probably add my small input to this. I too have owned A:M for a few years but only really dabbled with it. It is nice to see that many of the folk here have done a similar thing. I have bounced around various pieces of software but I'm determined to get it together with A:M this time. It is the only 3D software I have actually managed to animate something with so it must be the ONE! All the best to everyone on their animation journey. 3Ddoofus Quote
Petsublak Posted November 16, 2007 Posted November 16, 2007 Hi, Got into 3d around 1989 - 1990 on the Amiga platform, great machine. Been out of it for a few years, read up on A;M sometime back. I reckon this is the one I'll be sticking with. Peter Quote
WakDaddy Posted November 17, 2007 Posted November 17, 2007 I am currently working through The Art Of Animation Master. I have purchased Animation Master with the Picture of the Tin Woodsman on the front. I believe this is the 2007 version. It installed Version 13 and I downloaded the update 14c. I am on Exercise 3 Move It. I have tried working though this several times but I am not successful. The bones move, but only the bones, nothing else. If I render the picture, the arms, ears, feet, etc. appear the way they did before. I am not sure what I am doing wrong. Any ideas? I attached a print screen of what this is looking like as I work on it. Quote
Dhar Posted November 17, 2007 Posted November 17, 2007 You have two buttons that may look similar but they have different functions; one is the Bones mode (that's the dog bone symbol) which is used for modeling. The other is the Skeletal mode which is used for animating. Make sure you click on the Skeletal icon (see pic). "Hope that helps" Quote
WakDaddy Posted November 17, 2007 Posted November 17, 2007 You have two buttons that may look similar but they have different functions; one is the Bones mode (that's the dog bone symbol) which is used for modeling. The other is the Skeletal mode which is used for animating. Make sure you click on the Skeletal icon (see pic). "Hope that helps" Thank You. The TAOAM2007 even shows that icon and I totally missed. Sorry. Thank you. This is a very important part of the process. I will try to read and look at things slower. Quote
phatso Posted November 18, 2007 Posted November 18, 2007 yup. this can be totally and completely frustrating if you miss some inconspicuous thing in the tutorials. when they don't work, go back and read word for word. it eventually becomes second nature. that's when you start feeling like you could move mountains. (and you can - in 3D even!) Quote
Herb Montes Posted December 20, 2007 Posted December 20, 2007 Back into the fold, so to speak. First time posting here but not my first experience with Animation Master. I first began with it when it was first called "Playmation". Sometime in the mid-1980's I think. Had a 386 DOS machine then. Couldn't do much with it because it kept crashing. Years later I upgraded to an early Animation Master (1990's?) and was running on a 486 or Pentium 1. Got better results but the constant crashes made it frustrating to work with. Over the ensuing years I would occasionally visit the website to see how the software was developing. I think it's time to get back to Animation Master and give it a try again. Quote
Admin Rodney Posted December 20, 2007 Author Admin Posted December 20, 2007 I think it's time to get back to Animation Master and give it a try again. Its great to have you back! Back in the day we didn't have a forum to work through some of the issues you had. With the forum the stage is set for success. You may not find answers to every problem but I imagine you'll come close! If you have any problems don't hesitate to ask. Quote
Herb Montes Posted December 21, 2007 Posted December 21, 2007 I think it's time to get back to Animation Master and give it a try again. Its great to have you back! Back in the day we didn't have a forum to work through some of the issues you had. With the forum the stage is set for success. You may not find answers to every problem but I imagine you'll come close! If you have any problems don't hesitate to ask. Thank you for the welcome. Back then we didn't even have the Internet. I think I found out about Playmation through a computer magazine article. Been working with computers since the beginning, my first experience was with a Commodore Pet. Programming in BASIC to create simple sprite animations. My later graphics machine was an Atari 800XL, then I jumped into PCs. Computers have been a big part of my life and career since then. I currently work for a surveying and mapping company using CAD programs to create maps and aerial image plans. I work a lot with high resolution aerial imagery combined with vector lines. Mostly using AutoCAD and Microstation. They have their share of crashing and file corruption but it helps to have a lot of RAM and a stable operating system. My current home system is a Sony Vaio Pentium 4-3 gHz speed machine with 2 gigs of RAM. I've been doing a lot of cartoon art with vectors for the past few years as you can see in my deviantART gallery. Now I want to get back into 3D CGI as a way to expand my artistic horizons. Quote
PPi Posted December 30, 2007 Posted December 30, 2007 Allrighty then! After a while I decided to make a brief introduction to here after all. I have owned a copy of A:M for few days by now after a long, long time of considering. My profession is product engineering (embedded software and hardware) but apart of that I have always been keen on artistic subjects (photographing, drawing etc). Well, I suppose product designing may come close to that field as well even though at that point my tools of trade at work are mainly pencil, ordinary paper and Corel Draw for that purpose. [Will see if I'll get a copy of A:M there as well after this ;-) ] 3D graphics itself isn't all new to me. Unless we count those grim moments spend with POV-Ray that little modeling experience that I have comes from the use of early versions of 3DS MAX. This was during my polytechnic time and I suppose that since there wasn't any proper courses on it I finally decided to go with embedded designing instead. A good friend of mine however decided to switch the school and today it seems that he's having a lot of fun with 3D'ing in CAVE! (In case you don't know, it's a virtual reality system where you can literally walk inside. Couple of images can be seen e.g. in here: http://www.sgi.com/company_info/newsroom/p...seinajoki.html) But my goal with A:M is to have fun. And tell a story or two if it just works out. I chose A:M since it did seem to be easy to use (I don't want to spend my precious spare time for too much of learning software) and for second it doesn't cost fortune. But can an engineer become an animator? That's the question that's been always bugging me but I suppose now we are going to find it out! Back to exercises... Cheers to all, Petri Quote
seanix Posted December 31, 2007 Posted December 31, 2007 Hi guys, my name is Ernst Renner and as of tonight, I'm on my way to becoming an Animation Master ..... user More about me can be found on my web page www.ernstrenner.com I hope to add more animations (as soon as I get a grip on AM that is) Ciao for now, er Quote
Admin Rodney Posted December 31, 2007 Author Admin Posted December 31, 2007 Welcome Erst! From your site I'd say you are a natural for A:M. I hope your find A:M enjoyable. If I'm not misunderstanding the information on your website. Look out future... we are here. Petri, I've already welcomed you... but officially... welcome again! Quote
bentothemax Posted December 31, 2007 Posted December 31, 2007 Hi, this is a reintroduction My name is Ben. I am 15 years old and have been using Animation Master for almost 5 years now. I started making simple "flying saucers" and have come as far as to model very intricate models, and render with a great understanding of radiosity. I have even been given the chance to model and animate for NASA on several occasions. I would like to say that buying animation master was one of the most important, and best choices of my life. It has influenced my school courses, and have landed me a co-op job at NASA when i am old enough. To all new users, if it seems hard at first, don't give up, the rewards once you learn AM will be well worth any struggle. To all current users, keep working as i enjoy seeing all of your work. Ben Quote
Admin Rodney Posted December 31, 2007 Author Admin Posted December 31, 2007 Ben, You are considerably older than you were when you first introducted yourself here. (We all are!) To see someone of your talent at any age is a real treat. You give guys like me hope for the future. Live long and prosper! Quote
Bilbo Baggins Posted January 22, 2008 Posted January 22, 2008 Hi, I've finally managed to get a computer and now I have Animation Master! It's simply crazy the idea that I can absolutely create just about anything I want and animate it! I'm working through the tutorials and am having the best time. I never thought it would be so fun to learn 3D. My first short will be an anvil dropping on the phone when someone calls me during dinner wanting to know if I'm happy with my wireless plan. Oh yea...good times ahead...good times. Quote
phatso Posted January 23, 2008 Posted January 23, 2008 Hee hee... if you need help with some models, I bet you can find it here. LOTS of people would like to see an anvil fall on a phone when a telemarketer is calling. (Better yet, on the telemarketer.) Quote
Hatter M Posted January 26, 2008 Posted January 26, 2008 Hello all! I'm a fine artist looking to go 3D. I had dabbled a little with Bryce 3d, but I wanted to see what Animation Master could do. Quote
Admin Rodney Posted January 26, 2008 Author Admin Posted January 26, 2008 I'm a fine artist looking to go 3D. Welcome to the A:M Forum. I hope your basement is comfortable as you are sure to spend a lot of time there with A:M. Quote
RenderXYZ Posted January 29, 2008 Posted January 29, 2008 Hey Rodney...... Just about to make the purchase and start on the journey. I am sure will be reading and posting in the future. Quote
Admin Rodney Posted January 29, 2008 Author Admin Posted January 29, 2008 Just about to make the purchase and start on the journey. I am sure will be reading and posting in the future. There is no better time than right now. (a little birdie told me!) Looking forward to seeing you here in the forum. Quote
Hatter M Posted January 30, 2008 Posted January 30, 2008 I'm a fine artist looking to go 3D. Welcome to the A:M Forum. I hope your basement is comfortable as you are sure to spend a lot of time there with A:M. Well, it's cold, but it's home. Quote
loggydoggy Posted February 19, 2008 Posted February 19, 2008 Hello, animators! I'm a videographer who can't get enuogh of anything. Love filming. Love editing. Love graphics. Love working with my website. Want more! My partner and I have decided to add animation to our offerings. We researched and were lead to A:M. Ordered two copies and we're going through the exercises together. We work alone and once a week, we work together. So far we love it. We have some questions and would like to post them. Can you point me in the right direction. We're on Exercise 6. Also what is this about certificates? It sounds like we can work on the exercises online somehow? Maybe that would help us. How do we start that? I'm looking forward to what the future holds. I've been a watercolorist for years and years and can't resist adding another tool to allow me to be even more creative. Next year I'll be involved with a project to make a movie with some local teens and we want to have some animated dream sequences. May we all go forth and animate! Shelley WilsonLog Cabin Studios, Inc.http://www.logcabinstudios.tv Quote
Caroline Posted February 19, 2008 Posted February 19, 2008 Hi, Shelley - welcome to the forums! Your site looks attractive - I'll have a wander. The Art of Animation:Master is a great book to get started with, as it will introduce you to almost every aspect of A:M. And it's good that you have someone to work through it with. Exercise 6, I think, was the hardest of all the exercises. There's a special forum for working through the exercises: TaoA:M There is a thread for each of the exercises, and you can tag your offering on the end for people to marvel at There is a video for each of the exercises at: http://www.hash.com/2007web/vm.htm Except, wouldn't you know it, of the hard ones, Exercise 6 and Exercise 11. Looking forward to seeing your exercises as you post Quote
sab819 Posted March 7, 2008 Posted March 7, 2008 Hello A:M Users, and thanks for giving newbies like myself the opportunity to bother you with idiotic questions.... I apologize in advance for any 'newbie mistakes' that will flow from my end.... I'll read all I can and try to familiarize myself with how the forum works (never been involved in such a community, but am very excited about the possibilites) but thought I should start with that little caveat. I have been using A:M for a while, really just figuring out some modelling, but am now ready to get to rigging and animating...so I guess you could say I've been 'lurking' in the background, reading and searching for specific help, but just this week posted for the first time and was helped so quickly (and effectively) I just had to introduce myself, so, I am Seth, and am ready to shed the 'newbie' title asap. Finally, just a quick thanks to Jay (youngman) for his help earlier this week. It was very cool of him to reply to some anonyous newbie... so thanks, Jay. Quote
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