Animation test:

[entity]

Hi splinesmen,

Haven't posted in a while... But I'm working hard.

 

Here is a test of a character walking and sitting on a cube. The dynamic movements I seem to be having a problem with I may post a question about if I can't figure it out.

anyway...

 

depress5.mov

 

The quicktime movie is 1.29 MB.

 

I know I went too far by doing a final render, but I needed to test the low rez textures... to see how they measure up. I rendered him without his hair to look at the rendertimes of the textures. I saved max rez textures at 4000x and med rez textures at 2000x and low rez textures are about 1000x.

 

Tell me what you think... even if you don't have a crit.

[agep]

Wow

That was very nice

What was the render time?

[Fishman]

WOW!!!!!

 

I'll say it again - WOW!!!!

 

I was trying to figure out how you managed to texture a live action piece of film, then I realized it was just an incredible model!

 

I am in no position to truly criticize the work, but i will say that my impressions are that it is too slow. Almost excruciatingly slow. I think that if you sped it up some that would help. Also, it seems to be segmented, if you know what I mean. He sits and then he starts to raise himself up to full position. That should flow better. Before his behind hits the cube he should start straightening up.

 

Model incredible!!!!!!!!

 

Animation needs polishing, but that should be doable.

 

Scott

[pixelmech]

Great model The movements themselves seem very well thought out. The timing of them is very odd though - there are subtle speed changes and it as a whole seems slow. And yet as I said the movements themselves - what he does with his body - seam dead on. If you meant the speed the be that way then maybe I missed that

[robcat2075]

It's a fabulous model! He really looks great! Glad you got that faster computer.

 

There are alot of issues about how he's carrying his weight and how some parts of his body react/don't react to his larger movements that keep him from appearing consistently natural.

 

For example, his hips appear to always be completely level even though he almost always has his weight mostly on one leg or the other.

 

But you're in Uncanny Valley territory... animating that guy is going to be tough!

[entity]

agep:

What was the render time?

 

*450 frames at ~43 seconds each at 640x480 and multipass set to 9[3x3] passes, also reflections= on and 3 lights. With hair it would be about 1:20-1:40. I'll do one with hair next time around to see what is added.

 

Fishman:

it is too slow. Almost excruciatingly slow. I think that if you sped it up some that would help. Also, it seems to be segmented, if you know what I mean. He sits and then he starts to raise himself up to full position. That should flow better. Before his behind hits the cube he should start straightening up.

 

*That slowness is bothering me too... I moved the keyframes around so much I became very afraid to touch it again, so I posted here to see if anyone would see what my "cross eyes" are not seeing there.

 

robcat2075:

There are a lot of issues about how he's carrying his weight and how some parts of his body react/don't react to his larger movements that keep him from appearing consistently natural.

 

*You are dead right on that!! Sometimes when your blocking and you start to get to the detail and things get too cluttered you delete or change the values of some keys, you get lost in trying to simplifie the movements again, but it seems I lost too much when I did this.

 

pixelmech:

  The movements themselves seem very well thought out. The timing of them is very odd though - there are subtle speed changes and it as a whole seems slow. And yet as I said the movements themselves - what he does with his body - seam dead on. If you meant the speed the be that way then maybe I missed that

 

*For the movements, I acted it out first, and did it several times as I was blocking it out. The timing is the hard part for me. Subtle speed changes came about when I was moving the keyframes around like crazy... ... I wanted him to be depressed and sad. His slowness is not conveing that though. Time to look at a movie with a depressed person in it, because my imagination is at a loss.

 

Thankyou...

will check back when I have something more to crit!

Edited April 30, 2005 by entity

[Mr. Jaqe]

Very nice charracter, but the movement is a bit off at times. He does a little jumping back'n forth at times. I'm sure you'll get it fixed

[KenH]

That's amazing. For me, his head is saying sad, but his upper body is saying happy. There isn't enough upper body movements to balance his exaggerated lower body movements.

[higginsdj]

Hi Rich,

 

Very nice model though I feel theere may be some proportion issues there.

 

Anyway, to the animation. It feels too 'stilted' and way too slow and there is some jerking/popping going on there. Some specific things to consider:

 

1. in the walk you have his shoulders and hips turning in the same direction. They shoudl be opposed to each other.

2. on the first step his right foot starts slow then shoots to the ground. Since the foot is hardly rasied off the ground it should actually start fast and end slow (dragging)

3. his general posture is too upright. You need torelax his shoulders down and forward.

4. His step and turn movement is too deliberate. It needs to be softer and less stop then turn then step back.

5. What is his head doing during this phase?

6. The start of the sit seems OK though it looks like you have auto balance on so each leg does exactly the same as the other. What was that left hand doing? It started well position then flicked forward while the right arm from elbow down has been motionless for a fair few frames.

7. Just as he rear touches the cube his upper body jerks back with the head leading making it look even faster. Remember arcing movement and follow through. Body should lead the appendages (and the head is an appendage) so some offsetting is needed.

8. Final pose is great BUT you might consider siding at least one of the feet rather than having both lift off and touch down.

 

Overall it is a great effort with not much more than some timing issues.

 

Cheers

[Dearmad]

I don't know if "depression" is often conveyed in "slowness." It is often conveyed by actions that let gravity win after a pause. One holds one's head up like anyone else for a moment, then it drops. One's hand is poised to take the glass of water, then it drops to the glass and swipes it up quickly, then it's poised again before the lips... then it's slammed back down without concern for settling it into place, just enough to not break it.

 

The lethargy of depressed people I've observed is in the initial getting things in order before they decide to move or take action; once in motion they tend to get whatever they're doing overwith real quick and sloppy like, then it's back to rest mode.

 

So a pause before he sits, then a drop to sitting with lots of secondary type actions in the body as pieces settle into place without too much concern for posture.

 

Now, tired and achey is a whole other thing- and that's what this clip looks more like to me. Much more. Slowness, carefulness of moves (to avoid sore muscles), carefulness with balance as you may not be able to recover it by exerting slow muscles, etc...

 

Anyway, wicked, kick-ass model, and yeah you're going to be fighting in the uncanny valley with this animation... which is tough.

 

 

EDIT: You're WWW link is broken, is that supposed to be so? Wanted to check out your site but got Comcast not found site page.

[Rodney]

Rich,

Awesome model. I hope people know they can find a similar one in the your genericman that you've posted here in the forum in the past.

 

The last part of the animation; from the point where he begins to sit down reads 'depressed' quite well. The animation before that reads more 'dazed' or 'drugged' from where I'm viewing.

 

I'll have to keep looking at it but I think going for more of a 'introspective' look where he has his eyes fully closed and/or appears to be looking off into the distance more might convey that his thoughts are wandering.

 

What I'm getting at is that we as viewers need to sense that he is thinking about something that is depressing. Slooping/lowering the shoulders, lowering/tilting the head forward... I'm getting myself depressed as I type here... just a sec...

 

What is his motivation? Why is he depressed?

It may seem ridiculous but answers to such questions and either watching yourself or someone else go through the emotions would be a good study.

 

I'm in little position to critique... but there you have my 2 cents.

 

Rock on!

[entity]

You're WWW link is broken, is that supposed to be so? Wanted to check out your site but got Comcast not found site page.

 

Sorry, I dismantled the site. Wanted to make way for new work. The work there is like 3 to 4 years old! I guess I should at least put up an "under construction" page or something. I'll put it back up for now. And as far as that Generic man... Thanx for the compliments and he's been upgraded... I'll replace the old file with a new one (when I get time) with all the phonemes/ facial sliders (he is all textured and I will provide placeholder maps and a small txt file containing some instructions & info.). Sorry I didn't finish him in time for the 2005 additional CD's.

 

I'm not a great animator (probably because I'm really bad at acting)... trying to work through it. Maybe with all your help, hashers, I can become a good animator... trying to break bad habbits and OPEN my eyes to see better... I get so bogged down with all those keys, it becomes unclear after looking at it soooo much.

[DarkLimit]

Rich - I want to say awesome job so far man this stuff is tough, am just animating a simple fish and am pulling my hair I can't imagine how much more of a challenge this is......

 

From his motion I got the impression of sadness... I notice there is not much secondary motion to help the walk convey more.... But am sure u got this under control, again this is tough stuff and I admire ur attempts and efforts.....

 

very inspiring..... thanks for sharing.....

[higginsdj]

Hi Rich,

 

Don't be discouraged - you are definitely on the right path.

 

I find the easiest way to keep track of the keys is to keep them all aligned ie keying every 3 or 5 frames etc until the basic animation was locked down then start adding secondary motion then start offsetting and do some finessing to finish off.

 

After a bit of practise on large chors/actions it gets easier to keep track of keys. It also helps to name your bones to have them grouped on the PWS/timeline - ie the arms chain is all together etc....

 

Cheers

[entity]

I fixed some of the keys and went through and deleted a bucket load of unnecessary keys and got it down to the basic blocked motion. NOW He doesn't look like he is stabilized. HE LOOKS DRUNK!! It's soooo funny. But it's better than the last one. I'm going to work on smoothing that out next... and then the hands & fingers.

 

Thanks for any comments.

Dtest1Lg.mov

Edited May 3, 2005 by entity

[KenH]

I think it's improved. There are still a few jitters in there. Also, his legs don't seem to arc much....I assume you're using IK for them.

[entity]

Yes Ken, I'm using IK with foot/thigh targets. I didn't want him to lift his legs too high... he's almost dragging his feet.

Each step slopes in long- out short... so his walk looks more laborious for him. I gave him the "jerky" shoulder movement, because it makes him look like he has a chip on his shoulder or is angry about something.

I tried making him collapse onto the cube, it looked good, but it's not what I wanted, so I toned it down a lot and added the forearms/hands thrusting down after he sits to show frustration.

I plan to have him put his hands up, with his elbows on his knees, and then rest his face in his hands. Then he will take a long deep breath and sigh.

 

Anger--> frustration--> sadness/depression

 

Thanks for your help!

 

*EDIT:

Forgot spellcheck!

Edited May 3, 2005 by entity

[seven]

entity  Posted: May 3 2005, 05:46 AM

I fixed some of the keys and went through and deleted a bucket load of unnecessary keys and got it down to the basic blocked motion. NOW He doesn't look like he is stabilized.

 

HE LOOKS DRUNK!! It's soooo funny. But it's better than the last one. I'm going to work on smoothing that out next... and then the hands & fingers.

 

http://www.hash.com/forums/index.php?act=A...=post&id=103016

 

Yes looking drunk - going on the loo - so drunk he have forgotten to pull down the trousers!

Hope you have got humor, entity!

In the end I believe this will be a really good one. It is so good done already. Just some sound and another chair and we will understand that he is not on the loo.

[entity]

Okay,

Smoothed out some of the movements and tonned down his bounciness in the hips. Still have the hands and a few pops left here and there to fix.

 

More to come!

Dtest2Lg.mov

[seven]

This is really good. Saw some little jump. But what I have been trying to say. Not knowing the circumstances around this character it is really hard to tell if it is good or not. Not lifting his feet. Sitting down in some curious way. And sitting not looking at you.

Sure he is a part of a story, but I believe, we want to see the story and hear it. And it will be so much easier to tell.

 

And the real thing is - I believe - trying to do realism in 3D - 4D animated 3D - that is unrealistic - you got to have such an good renderer - and the eye is so clever to find details to critisice - so you will never do it - Animation in 3D is still Donald Duck and Mickey the Mouse - you have to accept - play with the limits - this guy is really good done modeled and animated - but still he is a doll and he will be that... not having a super-computer and a staff to do all muscles... So I think better accept this dolls movements and try to tell a story with some sound and lipsync... action... more action... circumstances... driving forces... conflicts... that is the way I believe...

[entity]

Hope you have got humor, entity!

 

Yes seven, I do! And so do you. I enjoyed your "Thom with Hunter Dynamics", but you must understand that you are pushing the limits between humor and distastefulness. People are not used to seeing the A:M icon with genitals... so just warn us next time that there is genital nudity (The rating for full frontal nudity here in America is "X".) Try to keep your work within the "R" rating which is "Brief nudity"- and you may get more positive feedback. Still, I admire you for your humor and I understand your joke, but there are others that weren't expecting THAT.

[entity]

Not knowing the circumstances around this character it is really hard to tell if it is good or not

 

He is a fighter pilot. He just came out of a space battle where one of his pilots was killed in space... and now coming into the debriefing room, he deals with his feelings by himself.... Anger--> frustration--> sadness/depression

 

one scene out of many, but it's one of the hardest... so I tried it first.

 

 

OK, seven?

[seven]

Yes a pilot in debriefing...

But what I tried to tell you - it is hard - I believe impossible - to do realistic 3D and 4D with the time - it is still harder. You have to accept that your model always are going to look as a doll... and play with that... making a story and the public will accept they are looking at a doll - a bit realistic doll - but still a doll...

And in reality pilots are dolls - they are just used of other guys - and they do not understand it themselves.

 

This debriefing room - there is not to see - perhaps having modeled a room his movements would be not the same.

[entity]

thankyou Seven!

Edited May 3, 2005 by entity

[rossk]

Thats a really nice job with the model, and the animation is coming nicely too.

I'm not professional animator, and... truth be told, not even a decent amateur one... but I noticed one thing that seemed a little weird to me. I have an image of it attached. The foot positions just seem awkward. If you put your feet in those positions its much harder to keep balance (still not hard... but harder than normal )

 

Anyway, I hope that helps.

Keep up the good (amazing) work,

--Ross

[entity]

Consider the motion and direction he is moving you are right... but sometimes some things can be "unatural" when you take a snapshot in real life too. Especially in sports photos.

 

Try to strike this pose:

[Mr. Jaqe]

His left foot jumps a bit, but other than that, you've done a lot of progress from your first attempt

[entity]

The next thing I will look into will be any pops or bumpiness in the action and try to figure out how to either smooth them out or fix the timing. Thanks to you guys, I'm learning a lot about how this character should be moving basicly.

 

It seems like the process is:

1) Block action.

2) Define action.

3) Clean up weight and timing.

4) Smooth out bumpiness and/or pops.

5) Goto step "3)" again if necessary.

6) If it is acceptable, continue to next scene/segment.

 

I plan on adding lip sync at some time, but I will have to do that in another action, so I can SEE the face better, then in the chor I will layer the two actions and edit in the action windows accordingly.

Basicly, I'm trying this out to see if it will be a good way to work.

Does anyone out there do it this way?

 

I'll post results after trying to get rid of these pops/ bumpiness problems.

 

Mr. Jaqe wrote:

lot of progress from your first attempt

 

Actually, that was my 23rd render.

[higginsdj]

My method:

 

1. Define your key poses and placement/posiiton in the sequence

2. Render and Fix your basic timing

3. Do your tweens - the big primary motion bits - don't worry about the small bits, secondarys/offsetting etc

4. Render and fix your timing

5. Add your anticipation, make sure you have nice arcing motions, add weight, your follow through - the bigs bits only

6. Render and fix your timing

7. Add your secondary motions

8. Add your offsets

9. Finesse

 

Cheers

[entity]

I cleaned it up a bit and changed the camera to not pan+truck. Now the camera is locked down and doesn't move so the movement is easier to see. Also changed the lighting to fit the mood more.

Dtest3Lg.mov

[Mr. Jaqe]

Ooooh yeeeaah, that's so much better! The feet are moving the way they should, the knees arent too shabbey either and he looks pretty drunk: GREAT!

[ddavis]

Rich....

Wow!!!

Sorry I came late to the party.

This is fantastic. I am really impressed. I didn't know you had the time to do any of this. Your model looks great. It seems that you are really getting the hang of the animation part.

How long did the last example take to render?

Hope you will bring your latest to the meeting. I would also really love some private modeling lessons some time (yah, as if we had the time)

[entity]

Mr.Jage says:

he looks pretty drunk:

 

Umm... He's not suppossed to look drunk, just depressed and angry.

But he does "look" drunk.

 

ddavis says:

How long did the last example take to render?

Hope you will bring your latest to the meeting. I would also really love some private modeling lessons some time (yah, as if we had the time)

 

That was shaded view-- really fast...less than 15 minutes total.

The Final render version took 45-50 seconds a frame for a total of 3 hours.

Remember-- this is at 640x480. I didn't render with the hair though, it would have taken twice as long. No skylight rig, just three lights there and multi-pass set at 9[3x3]. All of this just for a TEST!

I will bring a few of the bad versions to show how I progressed.

I work nights... it would never work. I only have one day off a week now that the guy I work with is on temporary disability. Maybe when He comes back I can set some time for you (You should ask all the MAAM group to tutor you)... but I don't think you really need it. You just have to spend more time on it (TIME? What's that?I never had any!).

 

I have a final render so you can see the textures and lighting better.

 

*as a side note:

I made and used a proxie model for his actions after my first post here, and found that it made it easier to SEE his movements in a more basic way. I suggest making a proxie model for blocking your animation, everything becomes more clear.

Dtest3FNLLg.mov

[robcat2075]

I'm still troubled by the walk. Sad and tired is all about weight pulling you down but he's not exhibiting real weight yet.

 

Try this... stand up with your feet about a foot apart and your weight evenly divided between them.

 

Now lift up one foot without shifting your weight (not even a little) to the other foot. It can't be done, even for a second. Your body will immediately start to fall toward the unsupported side.

 

But when this guy lifts his foot, he doesn't shift his weight but somehow stays suspended in air. You don't want a weightless walk here, you want gravity to be painfully obvious.

[entity]

I understand. If you compare the two (the first post with the new) you can see I really took it away. At least he was bouncing with the walk in the first post... now he basicly "glide" walks. It's magic! (just kidding) I admitt, I'm afraid to fix it for fear I have to adjust something else because I change the weight. Something else WILL look bad if I change it, but it must be done. Thanks for your EYES again.