First work posted

[c-wheeler]

Well, this is the first time I've felt I could post in this section.

 

This is a recently published ad illustration made with AM.

 

 

You can click here for a larger size picMask

[Rodney]

You made that fencing mask in A:M? or the whole ad?

 

Come on... fess up the details!

[c-wheeler]

Not the whole add, no. The mask was rendered against a photoshop background at 1200 * 1600( not exactly), Then the text was added over the top

[c-wheeler]

This is a previous one done for the same people:-

 

 

Another link for a larger pic here :-

 

A-guild

[Gene]

Nicely done. I really like the layout of these ads. Professional work.

 

Cheers,

 

Eugene

[heyvern]

I would love to see a wire frame of that mask! That is... unbelievably amazing realism!

 

Vernon "!" Zehr

[c-wheeler]

Here you go Vernon!

 

 

 

 

Actually it was only down to the excellant tutorials on your website that I was able to get the detail right. So its all thanks to you

 

But no royalties, OK?

[heyvern]

Okay!

 

No royalties... but some day... you absolutely must do a little tutorial on how you did that mask. I swear I thought it had to be a photo...

 

It isn't just the modeling... it is the lighting! And the details! How the heck you got those random looking wrinkles on the edges of that mask... I mean... dang! they look accidental!

 

You need to share your brain with us... or... just let me borrow it for a few days... I promise to wash it and get it back to you relatively unharmed.

 

Any chance to see some renders from different angles?

 

Vernon "!" Zehr

[KenH]

Great work Chris! Excellent material work on the mask!

 

Ken "Vern lost his avatar!!" Heslip

[pixelmech]

Holy realism, Batman! If I did not know, you could NOT convince me that was a 3d model. That is unbelieveable work, really.

[c-wheeler]

The mask mesh is a material, grid turbulance, sphere maped with 2 attributes, black and white with the white on 100% transparancy. Its actually 5 differnt sets of the material, because I was unable to get the allover pattern right.

 

I also used an enviromental light blur on the chrome studs, as well as other materials on the plastic and on the black non-metallic areas of the mask.

 

All the rest is made of combinations of decals(colour bump etc) applied to the right spot.

 

The accidental wrinkles- aren't accidental

 

It's the attention to detail that takes your work with this program from basic to pro. My improvement I put down to Frank Silas and the apprentiship scheme.And reading tutorials. And plugging away at it. And......No one expects the spannish inquistion.

[c-wheeler]

Now-if only I could win the immage contest.......

[Paul Forwood]

Beautiful work, Chris!

 

Now-if only I could win the immage contest

 

How about a beautiful still-life composition of mask, epee and gloves with some atmospheric lighting. Or fencers in action. Then of course you will have to wait for a suitable topic.

[c-wheeler]

Funnily enough, I happen to have an epee or two and some gloves, britches,jacket, maybe I could do something where they all assemble themselves and fight it out...........

 

Would that count as a mood shot?

[strohbehn]

Outstanding work, Chris!

 

I'd have bet $50 that was a photograph. Thanks for showing the wireframes and some insights on how you did it.

 

Is the fabric fuzz on the edges of the head strap done in photoshop?

[c-wheeler]

The slightly blurred edging on the white elastic was actually a mistake. When I rendered out there was a white line where there was a problam with the decals. On some of the decals used absolute black(0.0.0.) and I think it came out transparent.???? Anyway ther were several patches. All the touchup was done with corel photopaint

 

I used scans of the actual parts from the manufactures for the textures

 

The cloth was flattened in a pose before any decaling was added. Stitching was both color and bumpmap

[PlJack]

First off, WOW. Fooled me as well.

I have to ask though, why go through all the trouble to render

a mask that already exists. why not just take picture of it?

 

 

Jack

[KenH]

why not just take picture of it?

LOL I was just going to ask that. It might have something to do with the magnifying effect....but that could be done in reality or 2D I guess.

[c-wheeler]

For some time now I have been illustrating their website and writing a book for them-and the armourers guild- a sort of "a get the most from your fencing kit"(so not a likely best seller) ,and had already made "toon style" models of a lot of the equipment, as well as videos and some product visualisation for them. We first started to do realistic bits to use on the website when they found that some of the pics they had of the real thing, didn't look as realistic as the models, and being very small, were very difficult to photograph well.

 

I was working with them on the "personal equipment" section which included masks(and other bits of equipment) and had modeled a lot of it so that I could show various parts and take them to bits and show how to repair them. It did not have a high level of finish and looked like the atatched pic. When I was asked if I could provide a realistic pic for them I just said "yes"

 

Also I just had a look at one of the scans I did for the blak backstrap, the white flecking was on the original scan as well. It looks like white cotton or something, probably off my t-shirt.

[c-wheeler]

I forgot the pic

[KBaer]

Great work Chris!

 

Thanks to you, I have something I can brag about when I go to my fencing club. I haven't been faring so well in the local competitions, so thank goodness I can whip the latest issue of American Fencer, and show off the great Leon Paul ads. I also would have sworn that mask was a photo. Amazing work!

[John Keates]

I have to assume that the last posted image is not the final model that you used. I would love to see the actual model in front and side views.

[heyvern]

Would it be possible to see the original render from the ad? I mean the render before the ad was printed rather than a scan of the print ad?

 

the scan is a little washed out and I would love to see the detail a little sharper. Maybe you could show a really close detail of it. If you rendered for print res that sucker would be pretty big.

 

I don't mean to sound... skeptical... we are all in shock over this incredible image... take it as a compliment that we need to see more!

 

Vernon "!" Zehr

[Zaryin]

Wow, excellent texturing work. I also would have sword that was a photo. GOod job.

[Parlo]

Wow - I'm also amazed by that render. What were the ad dimms? I assume that it's atleast a full sized magazine ad, due to size of the text. You've got stunning clarity out of a 1200*1600 image if that's the case - I'd usually get artifacts if I was to use that rez for an ad half that size. It's a shame you seem to have lost the original render as I'm sure it would have much more fidelity than the scan you've posted. I'd love to know the lighting setup you've used. If you get time a few grabs of the final choreography would be nice Did you use radiosity?

 

Keep up the good work.

[heyvern]

Watch out! Bull in a china shop!

 

I think the fencing mask is a photo.

 

I have studied it... with a magnifying glass... scrutinized it closely... I need more info to prove otherwise. I wouldn't swear in a court of law to this conclusion... but... without additional evidence it is all I have.

 

Please Chris... prove me wrong! I want to believe everyone is honest and trustworthy!

 

Please prove that I am wrong!

 

So far nothing shown has done this. If this is a rendered image created in AM you should be swelling up with pride at this unfounded accusation by a doubting Thomas not capable of this kind of realism... after years of trying.

 

I would bow at your feet and kiss them begging your forgiveness if I am wrong. I will even run naked through my neighborhood as punishment... and provide photo evidence (pixelated). I just need to know... for sure...

 

I am generally a nice guy. I hope no one gets too angry at my honesty here.

 

p.s. I take back the naked running thing... with my luck I would have to do it. I could stand in front of my open living room window in just my underwear.... I've done that before... but only at night.

 

Vernon "!" Zehr

[John Keates]

I am going to have to stick my neck out also. I am willing to bet large sums of money that this is a photo. I could give a long list as to why, it gets longer each time I look at it.

 

You must at least be able to show us the render before print.

[KenH]

I would bow at your feet and kiss them begging your forgiveness if I am wrong. I will even run naked through my neighborhood as punishment... and provide photo evidence (pixelated). I just need to know... for sure...

Don't do it unless he agrees to use this footage in his avatar!

[Parlo]

I'm with John and Vern, and tried to subtley hint at the fact in my previous post. A long long list of observations has lead me to this conclusion. I didn't want to be antagonistic originally, but trying to pass this thing off as a render is just a little bit too far fetched.

 

Prove me wrong. I, like Vern, would be more than happy to be proved wrong.

[pancho simpson]

right! i want to believe that image was made with A:M but i ....agg....Chris, please settle this!!!

[c-wheeler]

Jeez!

I should have checked this a bit more often - or is it just the 8hr time difference?

 

Ok Where to start

 

The original image was rendered out at 2550 by 3610. There were bits that needed toucing up

 

What do you want to see?

[John Keates]

Well I wouldn't mind seeing the original render rather than a scan.

[c-wheeler]

Ok John- but the scan was only used because I got it in the post that morning and was excited - I didnt expect all this hassle

[heyvern]

Not hassle Chris... not really...

 

A lot of people are just... skeptical... the quality of the image is so incredibly photographic that we are having a hard time accepting it.

 

When you see something like that... it is hard not to want to see more detail to prove to the cynics that it is truly 3D. It truly is so perfect in its realism... it defies all of our expectations and experience in 3D rendering.

 

Trust me... if I am wrong... I will feel horrible and stupid. All we need is a render with a wire frame... a closer detailed render... something that leaves no doubts. So far what you have shown has only added more doubts to authenticity... not removed them.

 

If someone claims to have discovered cold fusion... his peers will expect him to prove it... not just take his word for it.

 

Vernon "!" Zehr

[c-wheeler]

Thanks Vern,

Peeps be patient

First off original render is to large to put up, its 5.67 mb

will post somehow though]

 

Chris

[John Keates]

Hey chris, you could always down-sample to the same resolution as the first image and use jpg for now. I am mostly interested to see how far you went with AM before touching up. Maybe if you are having trouble posting a large render then you could just post sections of the hi res image also.

[c-wheeler]

Side view cho

[c-wheeler]

Sorry wrong immage

[c-wheeler]

side render

[KenH]

Time for humble pie?

[c-wheeler]

detail:-

[c-wheeler]

texture decal of backstrap- note white flecks

[Parlo]

What you've shown is that you've made a pretty good model of a fencing mask. But I'm still not convinced that the mask in that ad is a render of that model. Even with substantial touch-up. There are just too many intricacies that make it highly unlikely. The standard way to solve these kinda things is to show a wire frame of the EXACT choreography or scene. That way people can be in no doubt. Nice model though.

 

Ken - Humble pie? Nope. Not yet at any rate. You've really got to learn to look closer. Hone that acumen.

[c-wheeler]

model view of label

 

Decals used

 

Label text

Cloth material

label stitching

label feathering

 

I used an edge feathering technique to give the appearance of threads

[John Keates]

Not exactly what I was asking for though is it? A render of the same view as in the add shouldn't be too much to ask as you already have one surely?

 

I am not at all convinced that the environment map on the studs is right. There is clearly some soft reflection (of the mask) on the ones on the advert and you would have had to use far more than a little layer to get the overall lighting effect. A reflection map would then be un-necessary.

 

Now that I look at it, you have made a blundering ommision. There is a black rod that comes down and fits into the white material near the studs which you havn't modelled at all. You just don't have the splines to do it and one of your renders shows clearly that the curvature isn't there.

 

You are also missing a tonne of detail on the white rim around the edge of the thing. Niether your map or your modelling have the detail which is there on the advert. A low res image map which you have used would not do the job at all. It would be far better to use good lighting with no image map to get the crinckles from geometry, a displacement map and bump mapping. By trying to combine a diffuse map with the the kind of lighting (GI) which you would need to get that render would lead to problems where they combine incorrectly.

 

The black mesh in the advert clearly is not a 2D plane and has depth with complex reflectoins of an area light. This contradicts your claims as to the method behind its creation. Don't try to convince me that you hand corrected that mesh - it woldn't have been worth it when you could just take a photo.

 

How did you create the complex light filtering down through the mesh and onto the lable?

 

Can you show us the bump map that you used to get the wobble on the black rod round the top?

 

How did you produce the bumpy effect on the writing on the head strap? Why does this head strap not go through the circular fixing on the back?

 

You claim that the image couldn't come from a photo because the helmet is too small but it isn't like people don't make a living from portrait photography is it?

 

I could go on and on finding inconsistancies in your argument and pointing out things in the original image that you would have to explain. Maybe some people can't see it, maybe I just have an eye for these things but it is absolutely clear as day to me.

 

The longer you let this go on, the worse it will get for you, although it would be one wicked exercise for you to try and re-create the original advert.

 

Nice try though. You modelling is coming on. Maybe you will get there one day.

[PlJack]

c-wheeler, The worst crime you can commit is to succeed your peers.

 

At this point the only way to redeem yourself is to

provide a photo realistic movie of the model spinning a full 360 degrees.

This should not be a problem if the model exists.

 

Pass or fail you will find yourself in the A:M history book.

Good luck.

 

BTW, we are all just "dying" for you to prove us wrong. Please....

 

Jack

[heyvern]

Humble pie? uh... not yet... still not convinced... If I am going to run naked through my neighborhood... I need to be sure...

 

Chris,

 

Try and see it from my (our?) side... this image is so incredibly fantastically... perfect... there is not one single tiny spot... not one spot... not one single spot...

 

...that gives any clue that it is anything other than a photograph. there is not one thing that is "out of place"... there isn't even the tiniest smallest part of the image that gives away that it is 3D...

 

It is utterly, perfectly photographic... and... because it is absolutely perfect 100%, fooling us perfectly... some of us find it hard to accept... to be honest... it is miraculous... I have seen incredible 3D artists with years and years and years of experience... not be able to create this kind of realism... I have literally NEVER seen anything this close to reality done with 3D... there is ALWAYS some small detail that gives away the true nature... even the best 3D has some minor tell tale signs of artificiality.

 

This image is PERFECT realism... PERFECT. And unfortunately the additional screen shots and render don't indicate how this was achieved, nor dispel the doubts. In fact... in some ways.. it raises more doubts.

 

Still hoping for more.

 

Vernon "Hope I am wrong" Zehr

[c-wheeler]

There is clearly some soft reflection (of the mask) on the ones on the advert

 

Not reflection- there was a gap around the base of the rivets that was covered over on one side in photopaint

 

"use far more than a little layer to get the overall lighting effect"

 

Yes a skydome with this image(actualy on both fron and back

[gschumsky]

So, where's the render of the mask?

[c-wheeler]

There is a black rod that comes down and fits into the white material near the studs which you havn't modelled at all ??????? Sorry not with oyu there

 

How did you create the complex light filtering down through the mesh and onto the lable? Straight scan of a label thats all