mtpeak2

For the 2001 rig, go into the models user properties and turn off the IK legs and IK arms setup before setting up the contraints for the fan bones.

I tried a few too, with no success. It may not even be "apply before action", "store roll" is "no roll", so it could be anything.

I do see the advantage of using TSM2 geometry bones with a 2001 control rig, more reusable actions available to TSM2 user base. But, I do see an advantage to having a 2001 rig geometry component model as well. Since TSM2 is now free to all, it would be nice to see a repository of reusable actions for it. It's too bad the flipper doesn't flip assignments and weights. Since flipper doesn't, it's really not needed in the rigging process anymore. Mirrorbones will flip/mirror the bones as well as cp assignments and weights in one step.

Interesting idea, but the geometery bones in the 2001 rig are the FK controls and the spine doesn't have the same configuration. So, making a script to create a 2001 control rig just became a little more complicated. I would now have to script creating the 2001 rig geometry bones to use as the FK controls and constraint TSM2 geometry bones to them. This would be a problem with the Squetch rig as well, the Squetch rig has more geometry bones than TSM2 rig. There are other possibilities too. Having TSM2 control rig control the 2001 rig geometry bones. Strip out the control bones of the 2001 rig (saving cp assignments, weighting and smartskin) and run rigger with a modified script. So, for now I'll stick to creating new component models and scripts. Then, the 2001 rig scripts could be modified to work with TSM2 component models, but why would you want to do that? Converting the 2001 rig to TSM2 will help newbies install a simple rig to learn with (less geometry bones to deal with). They will only have to position one side, assign cps to one side, right? and not worry if control bones are out of place or constraint issues, if the scripting is correct. Just think, the 2001 rig with multiple arms. I'm still learning how the scripting works, so who knows what possiblities will come of all this. Thanks again for all your help.

I know you'll enjoy that project. If you have questions, ask me. Well, the 2001 rig comes first, while keeping the squetch rig in mind or a new rig all together. Why would you think that? It's alot easier in a T pose, but it doesn't have to be. It wouldn't matter if the setup was in the component model, it would be a different file with the same name to be swapped in/out. TSM rig wouldn't be able to use it anyway, bone names would be different.

If I recreate the 2001 rig, it needs to be the same setup. Creating them in the orientation of the upper arm wouldn't work either. You don't know what the orientation will be in relation to the unprefixed "body". I could add the IK setup to the component model and let flipper mirror it, but I was trying to avoid that. Then script a target bone (child of shoulder with start point of bicep) for the hinge to translate to with an aim at constraint. The target bone created in the script would eleminate any user positioning after running the builder.

Yes it matters. The 'elbow controller' is the parent of the 'bicep orient' bone. The 'bicep' orients like the 'bicep orient' bone and aims roll at. Rotating the 'elbow controller' rotates the 'bicep orient' bone around the 'bicep' (orbits), which rotates the 'bicep' around the Z axis and maintaining the X and Y rotation, thus positioning the elbow geometry. If the 'elbow controller' is not 90' to the hinge, it will cause the 'bicep orient' bone to wobble around the 'bicep', which may cause problem. [EDIT] Sorry the bicep doesn't aim roll at in the 2001 rig. In the squetch rig it's more complicated than that.

You couldn't have the elbow controllers end point at the start of the lower arm, characters are not always modeled with equal length upper and lower arms (controller not 90' to hinge). Not an option. The roll on the arm hinge doesn't matter, I don't think. But, the duplicate gives me a starting rotation that it rotates 90' from. The roll of the hinge is pointing back. I'll do more experimenting. Thanks

Ok, I got the elbow controller 90' to the arm hinge (duplicate of hinge with rotation). But after running the rigger, the left side is pointing in the wrong direction, the Y rotation is not being mirrored, I can fix it manually (see image). A work around would be to eleminate the rotation part of the script and just use the roll handle for the elbow controller's rotation. Since it's a duplicate of the hinge, the orientation is the same and the roll handle would work perfectly, but I'm just trying to reproduce it the way it's suppose to be. Not that big of a deal, but for existing actions to work, it needs to be exactly the same (2001 or squetch rig). Am I missing something in the script? Thanks Robert, your help is much appreciated.

Ok, The hinge bone is the parent bone for the setup (easy to script) the origin of the elbow controller would want to be the center of that bone and 90 degrees to it (starting point is easy, after your "between" explanation), but how would you get it 90 degrees to the hinge bone? It wouldn't always point straight back. I guess the hinge could be scripted so it was rotated at 90 degree increments, along with the elbow controller. The end position (aiming at the hand) doesn't matter too much, that gets taken care of with constraints (aim at with scale to reach on). In the 2001 rig, the bicep orient bone could have the same start position as the bicep with added rotation (duplicate of bicep). This wouldn't work for the squetch rig, it also aims the roll. So your solution may be the only answer to it. To bad the translation doesn't work like the rotation, unless there is a way to offset the start position. Temporary bones could be named with INSTALL in it and deleted with the install rig plugin.

For instance, how would you script the IK arm control setup? How would you script the elbow controller and the bicep orient bones placement in the rig? There's no reference for their position. This is something I was trying to figure out for the 2001 rig, the squetch rig has basicly the same setup.

The squetch rig would need to be redesigned for TSM to work with it, IMO. TSM scripts and the rigger can't do everything that is needed for the squetch rig.

Who said it would be TSM's fault if it's alot of work? We're trying to do something TSM wasn't designed to do. You wouldn't want to constrain it to another rig (possible conflict in constraints in Verns case) it would need to be parented correctly. He basicly just has a geometry constrained setup with targets. It's alway better to start from scratch. And again, why would someone blame the Squetch rig? They would be doing something that the Squetch rig wasn't designed to do. Even if they did start from scratch to install a rig ,whether it's the 2001 rig, TSM or the Squetch rig, there are not many people who would be able or willing to help them debug a problem in the rig. And you're talking about edited the component models and rewriting the scripts, who is going to debug these rigs when there's a problem? We won't get into converting a 2001 rigged model to the Squetch rig. Back on track, a good test would be to convert the 2001 rig to component models and scripts (with some modifications). Adding bones and constraints to TSM rig is one thing, but building a new rig for TSM to install is another.

Robert, he already has the bones in place, cps assigned and constraints setup. He wants to control his geometry bones with TSM2 rig. The way you say to do it, he would have to import his geometry bones and relationships and reassign cps again. either way, he would still need to parent his geometry to TSM2 rig.

I would think you could do it. Run TSM builder and position it and run TSM flipper, once you created the skeleton for TSM, you would need to parent your rig to it to the appropriate bone in TSM skeleton. Then it would be a matter of running TSM rigger.

The posable installation does both sides at the same time and also eleminates a few step, try installing it manually. It also helps in minimizing mistakes. There are alot of bones that need to be in the correct position or the rig won't work properly. With a manual installation, you have to use the manipulators, if you don't or forget to, you may as well start over. I've done about 20 manual installs, and its not as easy as you think it is. You can easily make a mistake and ruin the install without even knowing you did it. By the time you figure out that there is a problem, it's to late. Trying to fix it manually can be a nightmare if you don't know the rig and where to find the problem. The posable rig is a v13s or better install. The reason he needs to convert it is, he need to adds bones to it in v12 (adding the bones through the script for compensating) or TSM won't read the file properly, it needs to be a v12 file. This is assuming he is going to use the installed rig as a component model. I don't know much about TSM, so Robert my question is, can TSM rigger add new bones to an already installed rig that is not a v12 model file? Or, can a script be written that compensates already existing constrains in a rig?

Yes you can fix it. Open the BonelessThom_Fixed model I posted and the 2001 Skeleton in the same project. Delete the relationship folder from 2001 Skeleton using the delete key on your keyboard. Then select and drag the relationship folder from the BonelessThom model to the 2001 Skeletons name in the PWS. Save the 2001 Skeleton to your HD. First, smartskin for the arms and legs should be done with the IK setups OFF. When selecting smartskin for the forearms or calves, A:M probably rotated the bone in the wrong direction (these bones have euler limits that restrict their rotation). When in the smartskin window, zero out the transform properties of the bone being smartskinned. Then use the rotate manipulator to rotate the bone in the corect rotation needed for the smarskin. I'll take a look at the project. Function and print screen keys on your keyboard. then open a paint program and paste from clipboard as new image. [EDIT] You didn't embed the model file in the project.

Ken's image is a little deceiving. I think what he was trying to show was this, which is not good.

The problem is with the euler limit on the right forearm in the IK Arm Setup. For some reason the constraint is set to 0%, it should be 100% in the ON and OFF position of the pose. My_BonelessThom_Fixed.mdl

I'd have to look at the model file to see if I can find the problem.

I would need to see a project file and images. Don't need props or character, just the ground plane, hair material and decals.

I think I may have a solution. If you dropped the image on the light model, under the objects folder, the light in the chor does not have an image set to it (rotoscope is there, but image set to none). Show more than drivers to reveil the rotoscope in the chor and reset the image. Or you can remove the roto from the light model and drag and drop the image on the shortcut to light in the chor.

I'd have to say the drawings are inaccurate as well. Bicep/forearm roughly equal length from pivot to pivot (bicep/shoulder joint to elbow = elbow to forearm/wrist joint). Thigh/calf roughly equal length from pivot to pivot (thigh joint to knee = knee to ankle). For the rest, I'd have to look into, but I would suggest using real reference photos, rather than drawings.

This seems to be a fresh issue. When this happens, click off the bone and select it again and turn the manipulator option on again. This usually clears it up, for me anyway it does.