knipple Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 Hello all, I been using AM for a few weeks now, gone through most all the tuts except the more comlex ones. Have a question, I was creating a model after the "Thom" model just to work on my modeling and the 5 point patch technique(and also to practice attaching arms, etc.) It was going well, I saved the project, all looked well in wireframe and shaded mode. I saved and closed the project, went to grab a drink and came back a bit later and opened. Here is what I saw... Evertime I close it now and reopen, I get stranger and stranger things happening to the model, am I doing something strange?!? It weird that it looks different and more messed up everytime I open it. All I have done is create a simple spline, lathe, and extrude to make the body. Then attach the arm using 5 point patches. Yes i'm still very new to this program, but Ive done most of the tutes without a hitch, just found this wierd.. Any idea?!? Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hash Fellow robcat2075 Posted September 7, 2011 Hash Fellow Share Posted September 7, 2011 It was the drink that did it! I've not seen anything like that, but can you post that model here? Someone will take a look. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
largento Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 Looks like a mystery to me, too, but a general caution: be mindful of when you have Mirror Mode on. It's the usual suspect for many an odd behavior. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerry Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 Welcome to the forum, knipple! I second Mark's opinion about Mirror Mode. post your model so we can take a look. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knipple Posted September 7, 2011 Author Share Posted September 7, 2011 Ahhh, hrm I will see when I get home if the mirror mode might be turned on somehow, maybe I have clicked it randomly, thanks for your input!! Much appreciated Welcome to the forum, knipple! I second Mark's opinion about Mirror Mode. post your model so we can take a look. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fuchur Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 Just to make sure: There are no internal patches somewhere in there, right? See you *Fuchur* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knipple Posted September 7, 2011 Author Share Posted September 7, 2011 Yeah it was just a simple extrude, ive made sure the 5pt patches were legit. Model rendered fine, looked fine, just when I opened it did that wierd thing. Its no big deal, its such a simple model I dont mind starting over, was just curious Just to make sure: There are no internal patches somewhere in there, right? See you *Fuchur* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerry Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 Another path might be to put this model aside, start a new one and see if the problem persists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MMZ_TimeLord Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 If you have not deleted it, please post the model here. I'll take a look at the file structure and see what happened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knipple Posted September 7, 2011 Author Share Posted September 7, 2011 If you have not deleted it, please post the model here. I'll take a look at the file structure and see what happened. Thanks, i'll try to upload it when I get back home tonight, thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSpleen Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 delete the lower patches including all cps then reextrude I have seen this.......cant remember the cause. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerry Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 Same here, Spleen. I seem to recall behavior like this years ago when I was just starting but can't recall the cause, but it *seems* like it had to do with CP's on top of each other where I thought there was just one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hash Fellow robcat2075 Posted September 7, 2011 Hash Fellow Share Posted September 7, 2011 but it *seems* like it had to do with CP's on top of each other where I thought there was just one. One way to do that is to have extrude offsets set to zero, do an extrude and then forget that you have done an extrude. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MMZ_TimeLord Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 Yes, usually it is two splines also that are on top of each other as well. easy way is to start sub-dividing your splines in the lower ring. (Press the "y" key while a cp is selected on the spline.) I've made this mistake before myself. That was the reason for asking for the file to examine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knipple Posted September 8, 2011 Author Share Posted September 8, 2011 I have just started over and there doesnt seem to be any problems, like you said must have a wierd CP or mirror setting somewhere. Also, after looking through the forums I found and went ahead and downloaded this tutorial : http://www.lulu.com/product/media-download...part-1/11025332 Which was awesome btw!!! Completely worth the cost. I am going to start my model based on this tute. I love how he builds them instead of just extruding. I highly recommend this tut to anyone whos just starting like myself! If you can recommened a tutorial like this let me know, I will probably continue on with the series. Thanks for the help everyone! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerry Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 Glad it worked out. hang in there and hang out here! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hash Fellow robcat2075 Posted September 8, 2011 Hash Fellow Share Posted September 8, 2011 Yes, the Barry Zundel tuts are well-regarded. Welcome to A:M! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knipple Posted September 8, 2011 Author Share Posted September 8, 2011 Thanks, this is a great community and im sure you'll see me with more questions Yes, the Barry Zundel tuts are well-regarded. Welcome to A:M! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vertexspline Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 I also am starting back with AM and bought 4 of Barry Zundel videos and ----i agree ...very nice . Logical well explained and clear. I have the character ones and pleased with my purchase of these. Now I know I will not off the bat make the character so smooth and perfect but so many things have been explained that previously I stumbled with and lots of techniques and practices are explained which is more important when you start making things on your own. Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knipple Posted September 9, 2011 Author Share Posted September 9, 2011 I also am starting back with AM and bought 4 of Barry Zundel videos and ----i agree ...very nice . Logical well explained and clear. I have the character ones and pleased with my purchase of these. Now I know I will not off the bat make the character so smooth and perfect but so many things have been explained that previously I stumbled with and lots of techniques and practices are explained which is more important when you start making things on your own. Rich Hey Vertex, Yeah, I just started making my own really simple "human" model today. And just from the few tips I learned from those videos, its going really well!! Almost built the base torso in about 20 mins, where just a few days ago It woulda taken me forever! Im looking forward to posting my model when its done and have everyone critique it, theres plenty wrong with it for sure, but I am learning a lot Also, ive found that having a really nice rotoscope to work with helps a ton when you are starting out! Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vertexspline Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 knipple---sounds awesome -glad to hear you are making good progress---I hope to get a lot of free time this weekend and blast into the videos and see what I can come up with myself. I am also learning about other facets of AM at same time and trying to work on making a little natural scene ---so hopefully going to look at treez plugin think also will expand on the flower power practice tutorial of the original TAoAM and add some flowers etc -----I do not have expectations of making a character yet but glad to hear you are feeling good about that so quickly. Its all about making progress and working and working and working on these splines!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knipple Posted September 11, 2011 Author Share Posted September 11, 2011 Hey Vertex, Would love to see what you have been working on, im about half done with my "torso arm/leg" part of the model. knipple---sounds awesome -glad to hear you are making good progress---I hope to get a lot of free time this weekend and blast into the videos and see what I can come up with myself. I am also learning about other facets of AM at same time and trying to work on making a little natural scene ---so hopefully going to look at treez plugin think also will expand on the flower power practice tutorial of the original TAoAM and add some flowers etc -----I do not have expectations of making a character yet but glad to hear you are feeling good about that so quickly. Its all about making progress and working and working and working on these splines!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vertexspline Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 hey Knipple---well i was playing with the treez plugin which does makes interesting tree shape meshes but was having a little bit trouble making it to the shape i was thinking of. So started playing with making some trees by hand ...was trying to follow a technique in the old animation master 2002 book by David Rodgers and still working on getting them to look nice. Making things to look smooth always a challenge but will keep at it. All the time I spent so far I have felt I have been making good progress but this stuff takes practice..practice ..practice. Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knipple Posted September 13, 2011 Author Share Posted September 13, 2011 Yeah I agree! I have attached the arm/leg of my modeling and I spent a good portion of last night doing it over and over and over! I spent another good bit trying to smooth it out. I've encounterent one problem though...When breaking points and then trying to reattach them, i'll try to connect a CP to another one, and the spline is almost bent at like a 45 degree angle. I've read somewhere in a tutorial about this happening and the way they suggest to correct is select the point and hit "Y" to not split the spline, but add a point out of it. Then attach it to the point and delete the middle CP. I have tried this but cannot get the CP to add another point when I hit Y, most of the time it splits the spline. I've been trying to figure this out and most of my model looks smooth when rendered, its just those points and splines that have that funky angle that gives me creases. I know I must be missing something, any thoughts? Also, let me see some of the trees you have made vertex, thanks! hey Knipple---well i was playing with the treez plugin which does makes interesting tree shape meshes but was having a little bit trouble making it to the shape i was thinking of. So started playing with making some trees by hand ...was trying to follow a technique in the old animation master 2002 book by David Rodgers and still working on getting them to look nice. Making things to look smooth always a challenge but will keep at it. All the time I spent so far I have felt I have been making good progress but this stuff takes practice..practice ..practice. Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerry Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 Hey knipple, post a screen shot of the cp attaching problem. That's a common problem you're having but hard to troubleshoot it verbally (for me anyway!). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knipple Posted September 14, 2011 Author Share Posted September 14, 2011 Hey there, sorry for the sort of large images, but it will give you an idea. So heres my basic model ive been working on, really my first model I have made after the tutes so go easy on the critique! But you can see there are certain creases when rendered, and its by the back shoulder where I am having that "bent" spline adding problem. You can see when I break the spline, then goto add a new one, the splines always bent and creates that crease. Any idea? When I push "Y" I cannot get it to add a spline about 1/2 the time. Let me know what you think about the model so far too, I chose the mario because it looks basic and would be a good learning experience, pretty straight arms, legs, belly, etc. I still have a lot of modding to do on the torso and all areas, but its coming a long ok :) Hey knipple, post a screen shot of the cp attaching problem. That's a common problem you're having but hard to troubleshoot it verbally (for me anyway!). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hash Fellow robcat2075 Posted September 14, 2011 Hash Fellow Share Posted September 14, 2011 Basic rules of splining... When two splines intersect they have to cross. They can't touch and do a u-turn away from each other. They have to cross like an X. Only two splines can cross, not three or more. Don't dead-end a spline where two other splines already cross. The crease at the top by the shoulder looks like a spline dead-ending at another spline intersection. Don't dead-end one spline into the side of another spline. Use a hook if you have to end a spline in the middle of another spline. This spline is a certain problem. Both ends are dead-ends in the middle of another spline... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knipple Posted September 14, 2011 Author Share Posted September 14, 2011 Basic rules of splining... When two splines intersect they have to cross. They can't touch and do a u-turn away from each other. They have to cross like an X. Only two splines can cross, not three or more. Don't dead-end a spline where two other splines already cross. The crease at the top by the shoulder looks like a spline dead-ending at another spline intersection. Don't dead-end one spline into the side of another spline. Use a hook if you have to end a spline in the middle of another spline. This spline is a certain problem. Both ends are dead-ends in the middle of another spline... Ok, thanks for the tips, I'll try some things out and let you know, thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hash Fellow robcat2075 Posted September 14, 2011 Hash Fellow Share Posted September 14, 2011 In general, i think you have more splines than you need for the shapes you are making. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knipple Posted September 14, 2011 Author Share Posted September 14, 2011 In general, i think you have more splines than you need for the shapes you are making. I think so too, I am going to recreate the arm with less splines and hopefully should be easier to attach.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vertexspline Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 knipple.... hey looks like a nice start in any regards. I am sure with some practice you may straighten these things out but nice work for your first thing. keep it up and keep us posted. Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knipple Posted September 15, 2011 Author Share Posted September 15, 2011 knipple.... hey looks like a nice start in any regards. I am sure with some practice you may straighten these things out but nice work for your first thing. keep it up and keep us posted. Rich Hey there, I decided I would start fresh with a new model, instead of messing with all the splines. This model only took my about 30 mins and I have used about have the splines and attached the arm no prob! I think its a lot better and theres no creases like before, and the practice is helping a lot What do you think vertex? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerry Posted September 15, 2011 Share Posted September 15, 2011 Just as a general comment to add to what Robert said, your mesh should as much as possible be like a grid, with relatively uniform-sized, square patches. The only exception is where it needs to bend or deform around joints or in the facial area (around eyes and mouth, e.g.) but the grid will mainly get finer, not less regular. Of course there are exceptions, like 5- and 3-point patches, and hooks, mainly. But these should be used only for "problem" areas like attaching shoulders, the crotch area, and when modeling hands. This isn't a hard and fast rule, but it's a good one to follow if you're modeling simple, cartoony shapes. the problems you're encountering are pretty normal beginner things. As you get used to how splines work, how they attach, etc, you'll be surprised how quickly you overcome them. your model is already a good start! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knipple Posted September 15, 2011 Author Share Posted September 15, 2011 Just as a general comment to add to what Robert said, your mesh should as much as possible be like a grid, with relatively uniform-sized, square patches. The only exception is where it needs to bend or deform around joints or in the facial area (around eyes and mouth, e.g.) but the grid will mainly get finer, not less regular. Of course there are exceptions, like 5- and 3-point patches, and hooks, mainly. But these should be used only for "problem" areas like attaching shoulders, the crotch area, and when modeling hands. This isn't a hard and fast rule, but it's a good one to follow if you're modeling simple, cartoony shapes. the problems you're encountering are pretty normal beginner things. As you get used to how splines work, how they attach, etc, you'll be surprised how quickly you overcome them. your model is already a good start! Thanks Gerry, I feel like Ive made good progress, starting over helped a lot. The mesh looks a lot better in wireframe. Thanks for the tips! Sorry to keep this thread going so long Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vertexspline Posted September 15, 2011 Share Posted September 15, 2011 knipple---- looks better ----and yes I feel same way as a beginner --practice and do overs seem to help....lol.----keep it going! Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knipple Posted September 20, 2011 Author Share Posted September 20, 2011 I cant seem to figure this out...Incoming newbie question!! Im working on one model and I create a new spline...its very rectangular...and gives me problems... When I start another model the spline is smooth again and I can add points, patches, etc just fine. Im starting to model a hand and it seems like half way through the model the pointy splines started and its giving me some trouble with creases and nothing being smooth... Ive checked all the settings I could think of...Heres 2 pics to show what I mean.. Thanks and sorry for being such a newb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hash Fellow robcat2075 Posted September 20, 2011 Hash Fellow Share Posted September 20, 2011 If you are in Wireframe (8) mode that spline will appear as a smooth spline. If you are in Shaded Wireframe mode (0) it will appear smooth or blocky depending on how far up or down your subdivision setting is. Press PageUP or PageDown to adjust your subdivision setting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NancyGormezano Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 (edited) Not sure what you may be doing, or what may be happening - but have you tried hitting "page up" (for better display resolution) when the "pointy splines" start happening? The other possibility is that you are adding/continuing the spline ring by holding the shift key when you are adding a cp (A). If you want to continue the spline ring, and have it be smooth, just click on the cp (after going into "add mode" ) without the shift, and move your mouse to make the new connected cp. Edited September 20, 2011 by NancyGormezano Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knipple Posted September 21, 2011 Author Share Posted September 21, 2011 Not sure what you may be doing, or what may be happening - but have you tried hitting "page up" (for better display resolution) when the "pointy splines" start happening? The other possibility is that you are adding/continuing the spline ring by holding the shift key when you are adding a cp (A). If you want to continue the spline ring, and have it be smooth, just click on the cp (after going into "add mode" ) without the shift, and move your mouse to make the new connected cp. Great! That suggestion helped a lot! When I went back to wirefram and hit page up, was able to make smooth splines again, my hand is taking shape(for my first hand ) Thanks again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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