Help with "Force" Tutorial

[Tom]

Hello All-

 

Was playing around with this cool old tutorial using "forces" and am having trouble deconstructing how it was achieved.

 

I wanted to upload the zipped project file but it is over the 2Mb limit for the forum. It is 3Mb. What I could do was upload the movie.

 

You can see from the wmv movie what the project looks like. I tried adding another leaf like object to the scene but the forces did not

have any effect on the object that was added. The new leaf-like object was added as a dynamic object and told to respond to Newton Physics but it did not move.

 

Can anyone explain how those leaves are made to respond to the force fields?

 

Thanks for any help!

 

Tom

 

PS- If anyone wants the project file itself it still might be online somewhere. It is simply called "Leaf".

I could also email it directly if anyone is interested.

Leaves.wmv

[Rodney]

it is over the 2Mb limit for the forum.

 

I didn't know we had a 3MB upload limit.

If that is the case for you some setting is wrong some place.

[Tom]

it is over the 2Mb limit for the forum.

 

I didn't know we had a 3MB upload limit.

If that is the case for you some setting is wrong some place.

 

OK, Must have misread something..

 

Here is the file...

 

Very cool effect...just not sure how they achieved it.

 

Thanks for anyone who can deconstruct it..

 

Tom

leaf.zip

[Rodney]

Yes, a very nice effect!

I've never played with that project file so I'm glad you've brought it to the top of the forum again.

 

As for deconstructing/reconstructing... we'll have to look further into it.

[Rodney]

The primary motivators of the action appear to be:

 

- Sine Wave setting of each Force

- An expression that controls the Magnitude of the Force (Note that it is Random and in the negative which I assume draws the leaves toward it rather than repel them)

Specifically it is: Magnitude=Rand()*-10

[johnl3d]

not as complex but might give you an idea how it could work

 

http://www.hash.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=45558

[Rodney]

I don't think I'd want to animate each of those leaves manually!

 

Here's a look at the simulated results on one leaf (in the timeline):

 

 

We might expect to see each leaf's path is different as it is drawn/directed via the two forces.

 

Edit: And of course they are.

Added a view of a second randomly selected leaf's timeline.

[Rodney]

The only initial difference *in the Sine wave* of the two forces is the Octave.

 

In the first Force the Octave is set to 5 while the second Force's Octave is set to 1.

 

Of course there are other differences in the two Forces themselves.

[Rodney]

While there are several differences in the two Forces themselves I'd say the primary difference is the Magnitude which is 5% on Force 1 and the opposite (-5%) on Force 2:

 

 

So, is it safe to assume that Force 1 might be pushing the leaves along/outward while Force 2 is pulling/drawing the leaves inward?

Hmmm... thus far it looks like that could be what they are doing.

[Rodney]

There are further differences in the Chor Setup of the Forces position, fall off, etc.

 

Here's a comparison between the two:

[Rodney]

I switched to the side view for this one...

 

Note the difference in Fall off of the Forces.

It's an interesting view of the forces themselves (that white stuff) which can be very handy in shaping forces.

 

When moving back to a front view we see pretty much the same results.

[Rodney]

I'm digging deeper into the project file and have currently locked A:M up in the process so I'll take a break there.

 

Note that after simulation there are some things we can remove from the project.

For instance we should be able to remove the Forces without changing any of the animation because every frame of every leaf's every move is keyframed.

[NancyGormezano]

Very cool effect...just not sure how they achieved it.

 

Yes I have the same question.

 

I am not sure how they achieved the simulated project.

 

When I run newton on the unsimulated project (rt click chor/plug-ins/simulate newton)- all I get are the leaves falling to the ground. No forces seem to be interacting. Is there some other step to get forces working?

 

I will note that the unsimulated project immediately crashes 16b/32 - can't even open it into A:M. But I am able to open it in 18a/32 and "simulate Newton". But the leaves fall to ground only. I am also able to open & simulate the project in 15j+. (leaves fall to ground only). Did not try 17g.

 

So Rodney - What are the steps that you did with "blow_start.prj" to get the same results as the simulated project - Blow_start_sim.prj"? And what version of A:M are you using? Here is my result (but only simulated the first 120 frames).

 

What am I doing wrong?

18asimulatedleavesSoren.mov

[Rodney]

So Rodney - What are the steps that you did with "blow_start.prj" to get the same results as the simulated project - Blow_start_sim.prj"? And what version of A:M are you using? Here is my result (but only simulated the first 120 frames).

 

What am I doing wrong?

 

I don't think you are doing anything wrong.

Please note that I am simply deconstructing the files *as they are*.

 

From what I can tell the two files are set up in tutorial fashion with the first just setting the stage for what will be added and then simulated.

The second file is the 'desired' result.

 

I won't be able to dig deeper until later tonight or tomorrow.

[mtpeak2]

I changed the expression to Rand()*300 and Rand()*-300 for the magnitude in the forces.

 

I do vaguely remember something changing with fan forces at some point. Don't forget, this is a v12 project.

[Tom]

Thanks to everyone shedding light on this...

 

I am going to reveal my level of ignorance here..

 

Did the person setting up this project add each leaf individually?...

 

And then just let the Newton Physics create all the key frames for the leaves?

 

Thanks!

 

Tom

[Rodney]

Did the person setting up this project add each leaf individually?...

 

No. Especially if it was Steffen.

Steffen built *several* plugins just for the purpose of duplicating models.

One is called 'bricks' but can be used to create other collections of objects.

That plugins primary reason for existence of course was to make brick walls.

If you Right Click you'll see several of the plugins/wizards depending on what window you are in.

Simple Scatter is one. Multiple Models is yet another.

 

And then just let the Newton Physics create all the key frames for the leaves?

 

Yes, Newton Physics creates all the movement and keyframes.

When in doubt the keyframes can be forced (where none are) via Baking of Actions with a tolerance of 0 or 1.

Other tolerances will set keyframes at appropriate intervals (i.e. a setting of 4 would produce a keyframe every four frames)

 

If you haven't explored Steffen's other Newtonian projects they are well worth investigating:

 

 

http://www.hash.com/NewtonPhysics/samples.html

[Rodney]

A few of those plugins work great for multiplying and scaling too:

 

Edit: I should have made note that in some instances it may be adequate to just use the Duplicator plugin in the Modeling window but when using Newton Dynamics we often need the individual objects to have their own Bone. That's where plugins such as 'Brick' come into play because they duplicate the model with it's bone structure intact.

 

Prior to that, one of the old methods was to reimport a model into the same model over and over and over and over... until you got the number you wanted.

This often wasn't as bad as it seemed if you saved your model each time and reimported exponentially.

But it is a lot easier to just click a word, set a number or two and... done.

[Tom]

Thank you for the answers to the questions! I will definitely investigate those things further...

 

BTW- I am using AM 18.0 SSE3 64 bit and it keeps crashing when I import maps. For the leaf tutorial I had to forget about using the

leaf graphic that goes with the project. It also crashed on other projects when I imported graphics for rotoscoping.

 

Has anyone else had this problem with 18.0 SSE3 64 bit?... and should I send this to Jason as a bug fix?

 

Thanks!

Tom

[Rodney]

BTW- I am using AM 18.0 SSE3 64 bit and it keeps crashing when I import maps. For the leaf tutorial I had to forget about using the

leaf graphic that goes with the project. It also crashed on other projects when I imported graphics for rotoscoping.

 

Has anyone else had this problem with 18.0 SSE3 64 bit?... and should I send this to Jason as a bug fix?

 

Thanks!

Tom

 

While it might be good for a bug report (if you can consistently replicate the problem) it is possible Steffen could get the report and not be able to reproduce it if the problem is locally on your system (i.e. an out of date driver or somesuch).

 

In a case like this it is appropriate to start a topic and explain the issue you are having and see if anyone can validate the problem.

Once validated... it'll make a great report.

 

My first thought is to examine the files in question but since I've been simulating the same project with the same images you are using... it doesn't seem to be related to the image itself.

There has been reported a problem with OpenGL3 or... um... not sure. Set A:M to use OpenGL is what my memory recalls.

 

At any rate, post a new topic and outline the issue.

I'm confident that you'll be good to go in no time.

 

There are a couple other things you can check. For instance, do you have the same problem with A:M in 32bit?

Have you installed v18a? If not is that an option?

I ask this because I don't know where you might be in your current production cycle.

An upgrade in the middle of production is not something I would generally recommend to anyone unless it fixes a major problem or adds a new feature you cannot live without.

[NancyGormezano]

BTW- I am using AM 18.0 SSE3 64 bit and it keeps crashing when I import maps.

 

Has anyone else had this problem with 18.0 SSE3 64 bit?... and should I send this to Jason as a bug fix?

 

I am using 18a/32 and my system crashes (always) if I use opengl (SSE2) and shaded display with decals/rotoscopes, any model, project. I have found things seem to work better with opengl3. I suspect it is because my drivers are not up to date? BUT I do not have problem with opengl in 17, 16, 15 etc.

[robcat2075]

BTW- I am using AM 18.0 SSE3 64 bit and it keeps crashing when I import maps.

 

I have AM 18.0 SSE3 64 bit an I've been able to import images to the images folder. There must more to it than that action. But if you could post a sample image that always crashes A:M that would be useful to test.

[Tom]

I took a screen shot showing the Open GL settings for my version of 18.

Is there something that should be changed or checked that would help my problem?

Thanks for any help,

Tom

[Tom]

Just discovered that my computer doesn't support open GL3 (see screen shot)

 

I do have another computer which has a better graphics card.

 

Can I shift my copy of AM ( it is not a web version but a complete version) to the new computer using the same registration #?

 

Thanks for any info!

 

Tom

[Fuchur]

Just discovered that my computer doesn't support open GL3 (see screen shot)

 

I do have another computer which has a better graphics card.

 

Can I shift my copy of AM ( it is not a web version but a complete version) to the new computer using the same registration #?

 

Thanks for any info!

 

Tom

 

You will have to ask Jason about that.

> support@hash.com

 

See you

*Fuchur*

[robcat2075]

that error message literally says OpenGL less than 3 not supported.

 

Could that be what it means?

[robcat2075]

I took a screen shot showing the Open GL settings for my version of 18.

 

That indicates you have OpenGL2. So setting A:M to OpenGL3 won't work.

[Tom]

Thanks to everyone for the feedback!

 

Didn't mean to sidetrack the discussion into Open GL territory...because the original "forces" project is a fascinating one.

 

I try to deconstruct these tutorials to the point where I could approximate the result others have gotten.

 

I have a ways to go before I understand this one, but that is where the fun is...

 

Thanks again!

 

Tom

[Tom]

BTW- I am using AM 18.0 SSE3 64 bit and it keeps crashing when I import maps. For the leaf tutorial I had to forget about using the

leaf graphic that goes with the project. It also crashed on other projects when I imported graphics for rotoscoping.

 

Has anyone else had this problem with 18.0 SSE3 64 bit?... and should I send this to Jason as a bug fix?

 

Thanks!

Tom

 

While it might be good for a bug report (if you can consistently replicate the problem) it is possible Steffen could get the report and not be able to reproduce it if the problem is locally on your system (i.e. an out of date driver or somesuch).

 

In a case like this it is appropriate to start a topic and explain the issue you are having and see if anyone can validate the problem.

Once validated... it'll make a great report.

 

My first thought is to examine the files in question but since I've been simulating the same project with the same images you are using... it doesn't seem to be related to the image itself.

There has been reported a problem with OpenGL3 or... um... not sure. Set A:M to use OpenGL is what my memory recalls.

 

At any rate, post a new topic and outline the issue.

I'm confident that you'll be good to go in no time.

 

There are a couple other things you can check. For instance, do you have the same problem with A:M in 32bit?

Have you installed v18a? If not is that an option?

I ask this because I don't know where you might be in your current production cycle.

An upgrade in the middle of production is not something I would generally recommend to anyone unless it fixes a major problem or adds a new feature you cannot live without.

 

BTW- I did change my copy of AM to a computer with a better graphics card and it solved the problem!

 

Good call...thanks!

 

Tom

[Rodney]

Awesome news Tom.

 

We may have to mark your old computer as one to avoid purchasing!

 

Glad to see you are back in operation.

[Tom]

Awesome news Tom.

 

We may have to mark your old computer as one to avoid purchasing!

 

Glad to see you are back in operation.

 

Thanks Rodney..

 

The computer that didn't work so well graphically was bought "used" from a computer technician.

It has an "Intel ® Q965/Q963 Express Chipset Family" with 256 Mb Ram...

probably best to avoid with 64 bit installation.

 

Thanks again !

[robcat2075]

It has an "Intel ® Q965/Q963 Express Chipset Family" with 256 Mb Ram...

probably best to avoid with 64 bit installation.

 

I'm guessing the 256Mb was the whole system memory and not just the graphics card? That sounds like a tight squeeze these days.