Question regarding purchase of never-expiring version

[MAYAman]

...Still don't know if there's ONLY the subscription version out there, or if there's also non expiring version by now...

 

Hi Elm,

 

As far as I understand it (please correct my if I am wrong Jason) there are two version available:

- A:M Subscription for 1 year ($79.99)

- Never expiring version ($299.00)

 

Both are download-products today. (only manual + ExtraDVD can be selected to be shipped with the never expiring version).

Both are software-dongled to one computer per license.

 

> Infos on hash.com: A:M Versions

 

See you

*Fuchur*

 

Hey guys, I'm a long time Hasher going back to 1998. I want to pick up the full version that never expires but how do I do this if its download only now? How do I get a CD burned so that as I upgrade my hardware I can continue to use it? What if that computer dies? Once I download it, is it an ISO I can burn into a permanent CD? I think this is very short sighted especially for us who have supported Hash for years and spent lots of money on multiple full versions.

 

thanks

[steve392]

Couldent you just get Hash to isue a new dongl as you return the old one ?

just a thought

[robcat2075]

There isn't a permanent transportable version available right now.

 

Hash has been through just about every pricing and distribution model there is over the years, so i don't think it's a lack of sight or lack of knowledge of the options. What they are doing now is what works... for now. I'm sure they've considered that some sale may be lost somewhere because a certain option isn't offered but have concluded that the present plan has a practical cost/benefit mix.

 

The good news... the $79 annual subscription is less than buying the old full versions every year, even at the old $99 upgrade price.

 

It has its downsides but the old plans did too. "What if I lose my CD?" "What if i lose my dongle?"

 

I'd also add that no one on this forum is in a position to change the pricing plan no matter what the argument for it may be.

 

My suggestion is to send a simple note to Hash suggesting they implement the option you want. An angry, indignant email will probably be less effective.

[itsjustme]

The $299 version doesn't expire, but is locked to a single computer. If you change computers, Hash will provide a way to move your license...I recently changed computers and went through the process.

[MAYAman]

There isn't a permanent transportable version available right now.

 

Hash has been through just about every pricing and distribution model there is over the years, so i don't think it's a lack of sight or lack of knowledge of the options. What they are doing now is what works... for now. I'm sure they've considered that some sale may be lost somewhere because a certain option isn't offered but have concluded that the present plan has a practical cost/benefit mix.

 

The good news... the $79 annual subscription is less than buying the old full versions every year, even at the old $99 upgrade price.

 

It has its downsides but the old plans did too. "What if I lose my CD?" "What if i lose my dongle?"

 

I'd also add that no one on this forum is in a position to change the pricing plan no matter what the argument for it may be.

 

My suggestion is to send a simple note to Hash suggesting they implement the option you want. An angry, indignant email will probably be less effective.

 

 

LOL I would never send an angry ignorant email. I'm just saying that I have several stations I work on and in the past I could move the CD from station to station as needed. I paid full price for the software and should be able to use it on any computer I want. You were locked to the CD so you could run it in several places at the same time. Now I'm locked to my desktop and thats it! I can't take my laptop with me on business, I can't use it in another office. Unless of course I buy another license which to me is pretty ridiculous and hard to defend. I really like Hash and always defend them when ever they come up on the various forums, its a wonderful tool. But this model kinda sucks, just being honest. Not a reflection on the software which I love. Just my .02

[Fuchur]

Lets face it:

- A:M's CD was a nice thing, BUT it was quite unique too. Being able to move a licence that easy is not something that is often given by any software company nowadays.

(for instance Adobe, Apple and Microsoft (some if not the biggest players in software-market) do not offer that as far as I know at least not at the standardprice.

 

- Many other companies have discontinued the hardware-dongle way of licencing on many of their products

(for instance Avid, which uses a software activation-system now too and was heavily relying on USB-dongles before)

 

It is just the way it is done today.

And just to mention it: It was a quietly tolerated but in general not a really valid way to use one CD and run several instances of A:M on different computers, AT LEAST at the same time.

 

I can see why people dont like it when they are cut off a something they had before, but in general you should see it the other way round:

Hash offered some possibilities for "free" other software companies did eighter not allow at all or you had to pay some (in many cases much) additional money for it for years now.

Today Hash is no longer giving that gift (not because they would not like to but because the licence-company went broke and they had to do it in another way)...

hard, but their choice not ours and A:M is still very, very inexpensive. Even if you would have to buy 2 licences for a laptop and a pc, especially with the Websubscription.

 

I can understand your frustration, but I can easily understand Hash as well.

 

See you

*Fuchur*

[Rodney]

I paid full price for the software and should be able to use it on any computer I want. You were locked to the CD so you could run it in several places at the same time. Now I'm locked to my desktop and thats it! I can't take my laptop with me on business,

 

Fuchur hit on some of what I'd like to comment on.

It is unfortuante when someone with the desire to use A:M finds themselves in such a dilemma.

Let me start with some bottom line stuff and move forward from there.

We all want to see you succeed as you move forward.

 

When we move the CD from one computer to another and launch them all simultaneously we are in violation of the license. Although it seems reasonable to me that Hash Inc knew we were doing this in the past they didn't make a big deal of it because we were in a relationship of mutual support. As long as we were updating regularly (read: annually) we were in a mutual beneficial relationship where our petty crime of ignorance in how licenses work could be overlooked. The conflict arises at the point where we are enjoying the benefits of having (certainly not owning) the program to such an extent to where we feel we can stop supporting the program and yet somehow... also... begin to see our normal breaking of the license as not a violation of the license but rather a right and privilege expressly granted and authorized by Hash Inc. We were in error but we transfer this error to Hash Inc unfairly and then decide to hold them accountable for it.

 

The sad thing in this situation is how we begin to point the finger at Hash Inc and paint them as the badguy as if they've somehow taken something away from us that we had a inalienable right to before. After all, didn't they take away something that was ours before? This is point where wise men recalibrate their understanding of support and that will lead to a better understanding the options we have before us. The bottom line: The old way which allowed us to violate the license was a flaw in the method of security used by the CD. Apparently it was problematic enough that the company that produced it went out of business.

 

But this model kinda sucks, just being honest. Not a reflection on the software which I love.

 

It sucks but only in the sense that now we have to actually adhere to the license.

 

A lot of people love A:M. Fewer support it.

I believe Hash Inc's actually made a mistake back in the day in not being stricter keepers of the one computer license. But they weren't trying to hammer their users for minor infractions... they wanted to support them! I do think that if they had been stricter perhaps we wouldn't have as many users feeling alienated by the current subscription model and feeling as if they have been left out in the cold. In short, we as users have imagined a slight that was never there in the first place and we are really pissed off about it. I know because I'm one of those who has made the transition from being pissed to being supportive. For some folks that process takes longer.

 

This is a grand paradox but fortunately it's also one that each user has the ability to break through.

 

 

(It's never good from me to comment on these topics)

[jakerupert]

In my eyes a quite simple solution for this ever boomeranging topic could be, if Hash grants lets say 3 licences with every websubscription.

 

One = stationary computer, Second = laptop, Third = Rendering machine. (That`s like other companys for instance Maxon and Pixologic are handling this issue.)

 

Maybe at a higher price, lets say 100,-$ or else to compensate Hash or just make it customer service.

You wouldn`t probably sell much less with this model.

 

Everybody could be happy and no more dreadfull discussions.

[Rodney]

Jost,

First, this isn't a dreadful discussion and hopefully others will see why as we proceed.

Your suggestion has issues on several fronts and so I'll try to explain why that is the case logically.

 

Would not an increase in price effect all users across the board, some of which find it difficult to pay for A:M even now at the current rate?

Would some of them likely stop purchasing A:M if the price increased?

Would increasing price not risk alienating many?

 

Rather than increase the price why not just buy an additional license? Or two? Or three?

Purchasing is and should remain a decision based upon the needs of each individual or studio.

They understand their own needs best.

 

It's funny you should mention increasing the price because I personally think A:M should be sold for $99 a year for one single license as it was in the old days. Among other things this would send a strong message to the A:M User base about the value of A:M. We have this discussion cyclicly because deep down we all want everything we can get for the lowest possible price. That's understandable as we can be expected to prefer to spend our money on other things than A:M. We've all got other things to invest in that cost significantly more than A:M. But this is a too narrow perspective that not only devalues A:M, it further erodes the financial support that A:M needs to meet our future needs. Devaluing A:M undermines A:M for everyone and increasing the price will of a certainty move it out of the range for many. So I'm glad Hash Inc has already discounted A:M across the board for the price of one license at $99 as that allows us to apply that $20 saved toward additional licenses should we need them. That is Hash Inc speaking to each of our individual needs and all users benefit because of the current pricing.

 

The bottom line is that some don't value A:M at the going rate and others see it as a great deal.

 

For those that desire volume discounts there is a solution that will satisfy all and that is to contact Hash Inc directly, state their specific case and work with Hash Inc to negotiate a discount rate (if any). Only Hash Inc can determine discount rates and that is exactly how it should be.

 

I'm confident that if there is a market for additional licenses that Hash Inc will be glad to sell additional licenses at a discounted rate. But you've got to let them know your needs. Sending them a bid that devalues their product is not the proper way to realize this.

[Fuchur]

I would find it more reasonable to grant people who buy a 299 Dollar-version one more licence instead of giving it to buyers of the low priced version.

This would be okay from my point of view, but we will see. This is all Hash's decision, not mine.

 

This would be the way how Adobe does it. They allow you to use the licence on a laptop and a computer (but not at the same time, but I doubt that A:Ms licencing-system could control that. You would need something like Steam to do that... (>bad)).

 

See you

*Fuchur*

[MAYAman]

Well I for one don't see the point of launching one, removing, launching another, removing, launching another. I can only work on one PC at a time. Unless I'm a studio that doesn't even make sense. I just want the option to go to, lets say visit my parents home with my laptop and wireless graphics tablet, and be able to use Hash without spending for another license which I already paid for.

 

I can understand why Hash did it, but lets be honest, the studios who use Hash are in the minority. The people who keep Hash in business is people like me and you, single users, who use Hash for fun. Like I said, I've purchased 5 licenses of Hash over the years at $399, not to mention all the DVDs and training materials and the Anzovin rigging software when it cost money. Now I can't use my Hash on another machine when away from my home or my desk? Sorry but the majority of people will not exploit the CD. It worked for years. This to me unfortunately seems like a diminishing customer base because people don't think Hash is powerful enough and are brain washed by people using Maya, 3DS, or one of the other boutique software. Hence Hash has to make up the profits somewhere. Hell, I haven't seen Hash at any of the computer shows or conventions in a while.

 

I'm saddened by this as I learned on Hash and still use it to this day. I just wish as a loyal customer I could get my CD back. Its restricting and lame. I'm not a studio or an octopus. I don't use multiple sessions of Hash at the same time. LOL

[Fuchur]

Well I for one don't see the point of launching one, removing, launching another, removing, launching another. I can only work on one PC at a time. Unless I'm a studio that doesn't even make sense. I just want the option to go to, lets say visit my parents home with my laptop and wireless graphics tablet, and be able to use Hash without spending for another license which I already paid for.

 

I can understand why Hash did it, but lets be honest, the studios who use Hash are in the minority. The people who keep Hash in business is people like me and you, single users, who use Hash for fun. Like I said, I've purchased 5 licenses of Hash over the years at $399, not to mention all the DVDs and training materials and the Anzovin rigging software when it cost money. Now I can't use my Hash on another machine when away from my home or my desk? Sorry but the majority of people will not exploit the CD. It worked for years. This to me unfortunately seems like a diminishing customer base because people don't think Hash is powerful enough and are brain washed by people using Maya, 3DS, or one of the other boutique software. Hence Hash has to make up the profits somewhere. Hell, I haven't seen Hash at any of the computer shows or conventions in a while.

 

I'm saddened by this as I learned on Hash and still use it to this day. I just wish as a loyal customer I could get my CD back. Its restricting and lame. I'm not a studio or an octopus. I don't use multiple sessions of Hash at the same time. LOL

 

As said before: It is not because Hash did want to... the software licencing-company they worked with before had gone bankrupt and like that Hash had to go another route. If this would not have happend, we very likely would still have the CD...

 

I'd recommend to buy A:M (by the way as long as I can think back it was not $399 but $299) for $79 on both machines... this would give you a saving of about 140 Dollars compared to the never expiering version.

 

See you

*Fuchur*

[MAYAman]

Well I for one don't see the point of launching one, removing, launching another, removing, launching another. I can only work on one PC at a time. Unless I'm a studio that doesn't even make sense. I just want the option to go to, lets say visit my parents home with my laptop and wireless graphics tablet, and be able to use Hash without spending for another license which I already paid for.

 

I can understand why Hash did it, but lets be honest, the studios who use Hash are in the minority. The people who keep Hash in business is people like me and you, single users, who use Hash for fun. Like I said, I've purchased 5 licenses of Hash over the years at $399, not to mention all the DVDs and training materials and the Anzovin rigging software when it cost money. Now I can't use my Hash on another machine when away from my home or my desk? Sorry but the majority of people will not exploit the CD. It worked for years. This to me unfortunately seems like a diminishing customer base because people don't think Hash is powerful enough and are brain washed by people using Maya, 3DS, or one of the other boutique software. Hence Hash has to make up the profits somewhere. Hell, I haven't seen Hash at any of the computer shows or conventions in a while.

 

I'm saddened by this as I learned on Hash and still use it to this day. I just wish as a loyal customer I could get my CD back. Its restricting and lame. I'm not a studio or an octopus. I don't use multiple sessions of Hash at the same time. LOL

 

As said before: It is not because Hash did want to... the software licencing-company they worked with before had gone bankrupt and like that Hash had to go another route. If this would not have happend, we very likely would still have the CD...

 

I'd recommend to buy A:M (by the way as long as I can think back it was not $399 but $299) for $79 on both machines... this would give you a saving of about 140 Dollars compared to the never expiering version.

 

See you

*Fuchur*

 

typo sorry, $299. But if you've seen I've been buying hash at $299 for years. I like the full version. That $79 edition expires after a year. I've never bought software of subscription and never will. What happens if Hash shuts down? Well guess what, your software is no good since you can't get a license. I'm not saying Hash is going out of business, but you get the idea. Listen, I'm a huge Hash fan and have defended them from the fanboy boutique guys for years. We all know what the software can do. I'm just really disappointed I can't have my CD. I want physical media. Its why I don't buy downloadable games, or support downloaded movies. I like my media.

[Fuchur]

I can see why you are feeling that way, but the truth is: It is just quite unlikely that there will be a CD-version in the near future again.

I am quite sure that Hash will give out never expiering licences IF (really only IF) they should close their gates.

 

See you

*Fuchur*

[robcat2075]

What part of

no one on this forum is in a position to change the pricing plan no matter what the argument for it may be,

do you not believe? It's all been discussed before.

 

That $79 license price isn't a "full price" that is cheating you out of transportability. It's the price of a one-computer A:M license. It is far less than the old CD price.

 

Yes, Maya allows you to install on a second computer but Maya charges you $3500 for the first one. That second install isn't "free".

 

Worried that Hash may "shut down"? If Autodesk shuts down your Autodesk software will be also stuck on the computer it is on. Their License Transfer Utility will not work without an Autodesk server to contact on the internet. Of course, I'm not saying they're going to shut down... That's never happened to a tech company... has it?

 

You want to encourage A:M? Use it and tell people you use it and stop fretting about the CD. Post some work on the forum. We always like to see fine work done with A:M. And If you need it on another computer, buy the license for it instead of wishing to not buy a license for it.

 

I just want the option to go to, lets say visit my parents home with my laptop and wireless graphics tablet, and be able to use Hash without spending for another license which I already paid for.

 

Or... you could visit your parent's home and actually visit with your parents. Put the computer down and interact with them as if they were not a tedious family obligation. I'm sure your parents would love to see your face in an upright position.

[Rodney]

Trust is a difficult thing, isn't it.

 

It's hard to say what the future might bring.

Personally I'd like to see high speed drives with A:M preinstalled and optimized for feature filmmaking. (Not sure if anyone is considering selling such a thing and I don't think I'm up to the challenge of producing them either)

 

I'm not meaning to nitpick here... I should really avoid these conversations...

But I'm a user too and it's important to clear out the cobwebs.

 

Like I said, I've purchased 5 licenses of Hash over the years at $399, not to mention all the DVDs and training materials and the Anzovin rigging software when it cost money.

 

I'm not sure what your typo represents but I think it's safe to assume we tend to inflate our understanding of our support toward Hash Inc and deflate theirs toward us. That's human nature. For the sake of discussion we will give you the benefit of the doubt and attribute $299 for each of your purchases. It's likely that you weren't able to get to a tradeshow or access the discount that got you to $199. As the upgrades, even for the CD were $99 a year though... I'd like to know if you typo'd that as well. Perhaps you were purchasing from someone other than Hash Inc?

 

But at any rate, let's do the basic math with your (inflated) investment...

 

1998 $299

1999

2000

2001 $299

2002

2003

2004 $299

2005

2006

2007 $299

2008

2009

2010 $299

2011

2012

2013 (Presuming a potential Upgrade)

 

Note: I don't know what years you purchased... slide them to wherever most appropriate.

 

So over the course of 15 years you see your investment in A:M as: $1200 - $1500 or roughly in the ballpark of $99+ a year.

You can't include the money you spend on Azovin Products and the like because it didn't get fully invested back into A:M.

We could figure out what those elements contributed but that'd be a pretty deep discussion.

 

Now let's compare that to how much you should have paid if you were paying attention:

 

1998 $299

1999

2000

2001 $99

2002

2003

2004 $99

2005

2006

2007 $99

2008

2009

2010 $99 (This would actually be $79 but we'll leave it inflated)

2011

2012

2013 (Presuming a potential Upgrade)

 

So in 15 years time you think you've invested $1200 - $1500 but more likely have spent $700. Assuming this is correct and not inflated itself... and that all monies went to Hash Inc and not some other vendor or user this represents a $500 - $800 deficit in what you (unconsciously) think Hash Inc owes you by way of a return investment. In other words your support of A:M is substantially self inflated.

 

Now if we factor in that we do not in fact pay anything toward support beyond the year in which a particular version is released we begin to see a growing support deficit... but not in your favor. I'm not trying to suggest upgrading as mandatory but only using it as an illustration so that we can better understand each others perspectives. How many years did you skip the $99 upgrade? I count 10 years. Ten years at $99 a year equates to $1000. So now we see that in the support category you are running at least a $1500 deficit.... more likely approaches $2000. And this could all have been avoided at the cost of $99... now $79... a year. The really ironic part of this is that your percieved investment would be very close to the same amount *if* you had upgraded every year. We can do that math if you want to go there.

 

Hash Inc can't recover that $1500 - $1800 deficit from you any easier than they can from others who think the same way.

But there are some who don't think that way and do understand the effects of such thinking on the past, present and future of A:M.

 

If you really love A:M as much as you say you have in the past (you've said so and I trust that to be the case), please consider a recalibration of your thinking. The price of A:M has been kept low because Martin wanted to get it into the hands of everyone who needs it. But don't see that as the actual value of A:M. It's worth much more than what we pay for. And with our regular support that doesn't whittle away that value at the edges, it will continue to be.

 

I am quite sure that Hash will give out never expiering licences IF (really only IF) they should close their gates.

 

I have said that before myself but now find it a fool's game to play. Worse yet, it actually encourage the nutcases to want Hash Inc to go away. Follow the logic... Hash Inc closes it's doors.. and then gives A:M away? That's a solution? Are you kidding me? No, it would be better to think that without a shade of doubt that if Hash Inc were to close down they will take all of our lovely models away with them for all of eternity. But trusting in A:M's future now will not only destroy that imagined fate, it'll go toward realizing better options, programming additional features, extending A:M capabilities and ensuring a much desired longevity for A:M.

 

I'm sure Hash Inc appreciates the support of the past but it seems entirely logical to me that they'd appreciate it all the more if our current support helped to move them forward enough to meet what the future will bring.

 

One of the reasons for the current subscription model is very likely due to this way we as users think that we are supporting A:M when in fact that isn't the case. The subscription model corrects this and for the user does it in an amiable and cost effective way.

[MAYAman]

My request is a simple one. I'd like a CD. If they don't offer that, its within my right to show what ever emotion I want as a paying customer. I've purchased all my software from Hash online. Not at a convention.

 

When did I say that I wanted Hash to go away? How you came to this conclusion is beyond me.

 

Stop being so touchy and super defensive. If you can't see why I would want a CD then I don't know what too tell you. So stop explaining why I am an evil person for wanting a CD. I paid for the software, have been a backer of hash for years. If you don't want to believe that then too bad for you. My first copy of Hash had Captain America on it. 1998. Then I've had five or six full versions since then.

 

I never said I wanted Hash to go away. Or that they should give the software away fro free. Where you got this I have no idea.

 

Calm down man.

 

I'll consider a license but I like full versions, that is what I like. Not subscriptions. Oh well.

[Rodney]

I'm listening to your complaint.

 

I'm just suggesting that you have some significant errors in your factoring.

 

I actually want you to have your CD. But that isn't a current option. For that you need to contact Hash Inc.

 

I never said I wanted Hash to go away. Or that they should give the software away fro free. Where you got this I have no idea.

 

Breathe. I was only responding to Fuchur's comment.

As far as I can tell that is not related to yours in any way.

[MAYAman]

I'm listening to your complaint.

 

I'm just suggesting that you have some significant errors in your factoring.

 

I actually want you to have your CD. But that isn't a current option. For that you need to contact Hash Inc.

 

Its not really a complaint, its not going to change. I'll just have to accept it. I just hate when people get all frothy when as a customer I have every right to complain about something I don't like. I never said I want Hash to fail. thats nuts and insulting.

 

thanks anyway

[Rodney]

I never said I want Hash to fail. thats nuts and insulting.

 

Then there should be no problem here.

Fuchur was just commenting on your question of what would happen if Hash Inc went away.

While I agree that what Fuchur suggests would be a likely case I'm simply suggesting that is a foolhardy way to think.

For what it's worth I'm sorry you took that personally.

 

Note: This topic is closed because Mayaman appears to be done with it. If he continues the topic elsewhere it will be reopened.