Test animation

[steve392]

Thought I would try a bit of animation just to see if I could get a bit better at it as Im prety bad,anyway heres my first test

jump_test.mov

[robcat2075]

I might have a few notes but before I do, how about if you write a bit about what you feel is working well and what you feel is not?

 

Now that you've had a moment to step back from it you probably have some observations.

[bighop]

Off the top of my head I noticed the hands were locked. It looks like you have a lot of keyframes, or something, it looks jittery. (unless that's the look you're going for)

[steve392]

Thank's for looking ,Rob I think it all or most of it looks rushed to fast ,when his head goes down cloese to the beginning looks wrong for some reason to me but I can't work out what it is ,on the second jump ,that looks wrong the timing seems wrong oh and the bit where hes on one leg seems to quick aswell,.I didn't animate the hands much at all I was trying to get the lines,curves and the timing something like first,then go back and animate the hands .I have been trying to animate the body and legs first then the head and arms,then face feet and hands in that sortof order obviusly not doing a graet job but I think it is better than Iv done before

so most of it realy lol

[RS3D]

I think it is better than you seem to think it is. You have some secondary motion going on that helps to sell

the action and some good anticipation in the face, eyes, etc. You could probably work on even more secondary motion

in other places like in the stomach area. It looks like he has a little bit of a pot belly, so you expect that part to move

up and down in some kind of jiggling activity in the jumping action. Anything that gives body parts a sense of weight

would help.

[steve392]

The belly is a nice idea I allready have a pose for that ,mmmm will look at that

Im working away for a couple of days from tomorow so will play with it as soon as I get back

[robcat2075]

Here are some things I notice.

 

SteveNotesMP4.mov

[jimd]

Here are some things I notice.

 

SteveNotesMP4.mov

 

 

that was totally excellent !

j

[TheSpleen]

nice helping Rob!

[steve392]

Brilliant Rob thats exactly what I needed.I will study this and see what I can improve,I learned a lot from this vidio stuff I never even thought of and some things I didn't know at all so many thank's for your time and I will repost soon as I get it done

[matt_stanford]

Great tut as always Rob!

[Meowx]

"It wasn't an indian who told us that so I don't know if it was actually true."

lol

[robcat2075]

Of course, don't take me as the last word on jumping. There are as many ways to jump as there are things to jump over and places to jump to and people to do the jumping.

 

This jumping in place is a bit of a rarity in animation. Richard Williams has several pages on jumps in his book (pg 212+) but they are all jumping forward. The concepts are still the same but you have to distill out the elements that are about getting the mass moving forward rather than just up.

 

I imagine there are more story reasons to jump forward than to jump in place so that's probably why he covers it that way.

 

 

I also meant to mention that videoing yourself dong this jump is a good bit of research. You can compare the way it looks with the way it felt doing it (which I always found most useful of all) and you can count frames to find the timing.

[steve392]

The vidio would be usefull ,but is there any way to say use it as a roterscope in an action so that I could see the bones on top of the vidio?(probably not ,not needed I would think)

I thought I would show my progress so far ,still a lot to look at and change /adjust but I feel its a lot better than it was after going through your notes and changing stuff

edit just out of interest how can these two clips be a differant size theye are exactly the same apart from a front and left view,very strange

jump_test_2.mov

jump_test_left.mov

[NancyGormezano]

just out of interest how can these two clips be a differant size theye are exactly the same apart from a front and left view,very strange

 

Most compression algorithims count on the fact that all the image data doesn't change within the frame (pixel to pixel differences), as well as from frame to frame - In the 2nd clip (side view) there is a higher percentage of the frame that is background color - less change, therefore - less data to store to recreate same size image, same # of frames.

 

If you have "busy, noisy" frames - they will not compress well, and same as if frame imagery changes abruptly from previous frame.

[steve392]

Thats interesting ,I didn't know that (obviusly)thank's Nancy at least I know Im not cracking up ,well not for that anyway

[steve392]

Robert could you take another look if you have the time please ,to see if its an improvement in your eyes .I think its way better after going through your notes and adjusting things,it now looks to me more like he is moving himself if you know what I mean

I adjusted the whaiting a bit on the pelvis and the top of the legs ,and the knees needed the spline rings closer together

Hes suposed to be an old guy x navy a bit of a down and out ,down on his luck just messing doing some exersizes very badly but at least hes trying lol

jump_test_take2.mov

jump_test_left_take2.mov

[robcat2075]

Sorry, I missed this. I wrote some notes on the frames. Use the cursor keys to step thru them.

 

 

 

jump_test_2_BothNotesMP4.mov

 

 

The second jump works a bit better than the first but the number one problem is still the up and down motion.

 

If it isn't working like this, it's not working:

 

 

All the other overlapping motions need to be built around that motion.

 

 

[steve392]

Thank's a lot Robert I will study it and try again ,will post when I think Iv got it work't out cheers,Thats a clever way of doing the notes btw

edit Man youv got good eyes lol

[steve392]

I actually triede that jump where you open the legs front and back and I had to land with my back foot bent ,and not flat like I had it ,wich gave him the pain ,even though I did feel an idiot doing it

[robcat2075]

I actually triede that jump where you open the legs front and back and I had to land with my back foot bent ,and not flat like I had it ,wich gave him the pain ,even though I did feel an idiot doing it

 

yeah, I've always felt that the thing that got me the most result in animating was trying the action myself. And testing a pose out in front of a mirror is big too.

[steve392]

I had trouble adjusting the timming of the jump ,I had to add more frames to be able to get it .There are times when Im not sure if Im making it better or wors lol.Is there a way besides scrubing to see it in slow-mo ,I have to render it to be able to see the changes as I can't seem to judg it sliding the scrub bar .Iv never used the channel editor so much ,its a real handy tool.I must say Im enjoying doing this its a great way to learn .I realize your probably very busy Robert and I appreciate you taking the time to help and advise ,so without further addo heres my latest rendishen

jump_test_take3.mov

jump_test_take3_left.mov

[nino banano]

Iv never used the channel editor so much

 

Hi steve392, the channel editor is very useful to correct that you want to change,for me it´s the easy way to do it, I think you could introduce on it as you can...there are some movements to correct here, try to see references that helps to get that your animation needs...one important thing is try don´t move that you don´t need, I mean, move the only bone you need to pose or to move to avoid unnecessary movements, be careful about the key frames so close, cause the movement will be so fast...remember the best way to learn is the practice...keep enjoying, greetings

[robcat2075]

One thing first... All your animations are running at 33.33 fps. thats' not normal. Change your default in your options to 30, or better still 24.

 

Change this project to 30 or 24 also. 24 is better because it's a time-honored standard and it's fewer frames for the computer to try to grind out. Or 25 maybe if you are in a PAL country like the UK.

 

Second thing... if you character is too complex to run at real time in the chor window and pressing Pg Down still doesn't get him faster, and turning off decals doesn't do it, switch him to bounding box mode in the chor. It's one of those icons to the right of his shortcut in the PWS

 

You can see the motion move smoothly in BB mode and switch to regular to check details. I did this frequently on TWO.

 

 

 

 

Here are some notes however the jump still has the same essential trouble.

 

jump_test_take3_leftnotesMP4d.mov

 

 

 

What I've really needed to do for a couple of years is do a good tutorial on bouncing ball. The problems you are having and the problems everyone has with a move like this , the up and down motion, gravity, momentum and how to use the channel editor, are things that need to be learned with bouncing ball and learned really 100%, because there are just too many complications in a full character to be fighting with those essential concepts.

 

But I dont' know when I'll get to that tut.

 

[steve392]

Thank's a lot Robert ,I will try that BB thing and change the fps .I added frames to try and get that up/down thing right Im finding that the hardest thing to do,but will keep trying it.A tut on that would be very handy but your time is limeted as is everyones I supose .I think Im learning a lot though ,its made me think more about the hows and whys of it so many thank's

edited

Thought I would show you this ,its at the top of the first jump

[robcat2075]

One thing I notice is that the "body" bone is in the chest. That is unusual.

 

I guess that's not TSM2, but I would expect a bone like that to be at the origin of the hip. At the same level as the leg bones are attached.

[steve392]

No your right its the 2008 rig heres a screenshot ,the body target is usually there in this rig as far as I know,if it shouldn't be Im sure Mark would have soon picked it up and told me.What if anything can you tell about the channel editor ,doese it look something like it should for that jump or have I got it compleately wrong

[robcat2075]

I haven't really looked at 2008 rig.

 

If that's the bone that moves everything from the hips up, I'd say that is not a natural place for it to be. It's not a natural pivot point of the body and would complicate making natural motions.

 

The hips are the basis of all body motion and that's why you want a main control located there.

[steve392]

Heres one trying to show it working ,first 10 frames nothing moving the body only to 30 then chest ,then pelvis ,not eligant on my part but you can see it moves from the hip I think

I must say I really like this rig for its eas of installing and the stuff it can do

body_test.mov

[robcat2075]

I can't tell from that what the body bone is controlling because a bunch of other bones are being animated too.

 

What moves when that body bone is moved?

[steve392]

Sorry Rob I should have just moved the body bone ,this one has just the body bone moved

body_test_2.mov

[robcat2075]

Ok, it's not as bad as I thought. I thought the null in the middle there was what you were animating , but it's really the bone that starts at about belt level.

 

 

But belt level is still too high for that control to do what it's supposed to do. It's still not the natural pivot point for the body. I can see how this is the reason for a lot of weird movement in your character.

 

Maybe mark has an explanation for why that control is placed where it is placed, but I don't see the advantage.

 

 

 

Tell me again why you're not using TSM2? Are you on a Mac?

[steve392]

haha no not on a Mac ,I used the TSM for a couple of models and had problems as I now know becuase of my modeling ,the horsewoman I done worked really well though .I started using the 2008 rig when Mark was making it and I realy like how it work's plus Iv got used to installing it now,probably not perfectly but prety good and it has a lot of things going for it .fans are allready there ,hands work very well and other things like spine controls make it a good rig for me .If youv not triede it you should at least take a look at it Rob .There are a few good rigs now TSM,Lightrig ,2008 rig and if your more advanced than me and thats most ppl the squatch rig .One thing I find beyond me is a face rig so I use poses .I have no dislikes with any of the rigs its just that I find this is good and I can actually do it

[robcat2075]

It's not working for you with that control where it is. It's not easier if it's in the wrong place and you have to work around that.

[steve392]

Yea maybe I got some spine bones a bit wrong then ,to high ,is this one any better ,maybe Im doing them all that way and need to change it

bodytest_m.mov

[robcat2075]

Yea maybe I got some spine bones a bit wrong then ,to high ,is this one any better ,maybe Im doing them all that way and need to change it

 

In that clip, are you both translating and rotating the control, or are you only rotating it ?

[steve392]

Its both as I bend him down the feet lift off the ground a little so I pulled it back down ,is that a problem ?or is it that I have IK on Im never sure weather to use IK or FK

[robcat2075]

Its both as I bend him down the feet lift off the ground a little so I pulled it back down ,is that a problem ?

 

Bulls-eye! You're starting to see what's at work here. You're having to counter animate the position of that control to try to keep the hips form pulling the feet off the ground.

 

It's not like fine animation could not be done with this arrangement. Someone well versed in body mechanics and who knows the result they want could pose it just fine.

 

But for a student it inserts a complication that they won't be ready to work around yet.

 

All back motion starts at the base, and mechanically, that base is the joints where the hips meet the legs. That is the big hinge point between the body and the legs. It is where the weight of the body is supported by the legs.

 

In almost any body motion you pose that point first and then arrange the spine on top of that to make the shape you need.

 

With the main control above that hinge you are really trying to position a midpoint of the spine and then adjust the hips below it to look as if it were the origin of that motion. Not undo-able, but counter intuitive.

 

Now, in real animation there's probably no situation in which you would try to rotate that the base with no translation , like I was trying to get you to do in that example. You'd be moving the base of the base somewhere when he leans over, to make the appearance of balance.

 

But later on when you are debugging your motion and looking at channel curves there really will be no bone channel that represents the motion in space of that big main hinge point where the hips rest on the legs, because that point is indirectly derived from a control's motion somewhere else on the spine.

 

It's hard to explain in words. Am i making any sense?

[steve392]

Yea you are making good sence.I have had the problem where I couldn't find the channel that moved the bone ,so it must be that .So for me to be able to get things right it would be better to use FK on a lot of the animating .Im going to have to try this out ,Im not at one with FK lol.Thank's Robert I think Im begining to understand it better now

phew that was hard going wasnt it

[NancyGormezano]

If I look at the Thom2008 model - it appears that the body bone is placed similarly higher than the Pelvis Controller bone - just as Steve has him in his model.

 

With Thom as well - one has to translate the Body bone , if one wants to keep the feet on the ground, while rotating the body bone, or pelvis bone. That appears to be the way the 2008 rig works - It is not a matter of FK or IK (I don't think?)

[steve392]

Thank's Nancy I never thought of comparing mine with thom to check it.Btw how do you animate do you use FK/IK or both

[robcat2075]

I don't think this is a matter of FK vs IK. I didn't even know 2008 had a choice there. But I wouldn't think that choice would be changing where that main controller is in the body.

[steve392]

No your right ,Maybe when I rig another charector I could move the bones down a bit ,if you look at the last test could you show where you think theye should be on that charector,is it the top of the thigh bone or a bit higher.Ill show you my latest creation and see what you think

[robcat2075]

No your right ,Maybe when I rig another charector I could move the bones down a bit ,if you look at the last test could you show where you think theye should be on that charector,is it the top of the thigh bone or a bit higher.Ill show you my latest creation and see what you think

 

If you were looking from the side the origin of the thigh bones and the origin of the back would be the same point.

 

But it doesn't look like 2008 is intended to work that way. It looks like it's intended to have the hips swing from a point at about belt level and I dont' know if it can be configured to work another way.

[steve392]

I just triede it and no it would have to be done in the riging procces,But not to worry Ill use as is

Heres the other charector btedit can someone please deleat 1 of these please

boxy_test_2.mov

boxy_test_2.mov

[robcat2075]

I just triede it and no it would have to be done in the riging procces,But not to worry Ill use as is

Heres the other charector btedit can someone please deleat 1 of these please

 

That one is so graphic that you can probably get away with a lot of things that you can't on a realistic looking character.

 

on the walk... (I realise this may just be a rendering test, but FYI...) :

 

- he's walking with legs that are always bent. On a "normal" walk the leg is nearly straight when the heel hits. then...

 

-his body is rebounding from the very frame that the heels hits. You're missing the compression pose. The body will continue down a bit after the heel strikes because it takes time for the leg to bear the weight and push him back up into the next step. Richard williams talks about the walk poses in his book and I do in my walk posing video too.

[steve392]

Yea its just a test on the charector its still a wip but yes I was trying something I seen on a vidio tut by a woman that doese a lot of walk cycles and she said never to let the legs go dead straight as it gives a little click thing .Iv gone overboard with it I think .I will look at your tut again and see if I can get it better .God only know why I made that charector ,just wanted to do something not human I supose

Thank's for your advice Robert its well appreciated

[robcat2075]

I recall you were asking about how to get the slow in/slow out at the top of a jump. This vid isn't specifically about that

 

channelbiasmp4.mov

 

 

but show how to edit your channels to get any shade of motion you want.

[TheSpleen]

I recall you were asking about how to get the slow in/slow out at the top of a jump. This vid isn't specifically about that

 

channelbiasmp4.mov

 

 

but show how to edit your channels to get any shade of motion you want.

I did not know that!

Very very informative!

Thank you Robcat!!!!!