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Simon Edmondson

Why?

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[been a bit busy with other things today but, here is a revised pass on the timing of S12, after Robert and Rodney's suggestions regarding the hang time.

 

Any feedback welcome

regards

simon

 

PS

I picked the wrong Chor to adjust the timing on so, the changes of the rock after the lightening strike are an earlier version and gave been corrected after this.

 

Why_S12.mov

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Revised S13.

Slightly different setting and changes to movement as he goes down.

Any feedback welcome

simon

 

PS

S12 revision in a short while.Why_S13.mov

 

Here it is

revised on rock changes and head movements and legs on fall

 

Why_S12.mov

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S12 with the storm in the background. Any feedback welcome ?

The full render will be composited with the clouds in the background.

This is a test render to see how it reads.

simon

 

Clouds_S12.mov

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Trying to get a walk for the goat but the learning curve is steep as I've never done a quadruped before.

If anyone else would like to play with the goat model, please feel free.

Its a modified version of the one on the extra's CD. No maps, eyes, mouth, nostrils, nose and centreline added. Bone names changed.

regards

simon

 

 

Goat_03.mdl

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I started animating a walk and then... the trouble began...

 

I noticed some Normals were flipped inward (actually, the majority of them were inverted)

Going in to flip the Normals I noticed some awkward splineage in the tail but tried to ignore them.

Decided to see what I could do to fix them.

Connected the tail splines together while trying to ignore the other odd splineage near the legs...

Decided to fix the rear legs.

Decided to fix the front legs.

Am currently trying to ignore the odd splineage in the head/face. ;)

 

I wish I would have recorded this as that would have been useful to new modelers...

 

Still to do: Repair the splines in the head.

 

I know you can get away with animating the Goat 'as is' but my recommendation would be to download the attached, take the time to fix the head and then re-rig.

I know it's important to keep the production going but it'll be worth the effort to fix this stubborn Goat in my opinion.

 

I've attached a copy of where I've left off with a rather 5 point heavy approach to splineage but one that maximizes continuity of splines while decreasing the over all number of splines throughout the character. I don't claim it's the best spline layout but I think it's moving in the right direction. I also moved the center spline (and therefore the entire character) over to the center line as well so it can be assumed that the bones are now too far over to the side. I'd press on further but have to get ready for work. :(

 

However you want to proceed... have fun with it! :)

 

 

Added: While it's a bit hard to see I've attached an image to show some of the main problems with the model as it was (flipped normals, disconnected splines, bad spline continuity/terminations).

Goat_WIP001.mdl

Changes.png

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I started animating a walk and then... the trouble began...

 

However you want to proceed... have fun with it! :)

 

Rodney

Thank you for your reply and your help. As you've noticed, I'm not a very good modeller, lack of practice really. Aside from work on the head, the main effort on my part, was to add a central spline around the body so that it would have a left and right side.. The goat only has to look up and down in the next scene for 'Why' but I was thinking of using it in the short after that, so will revise it following your suggestions.

Thank you.

regards

simon

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Not really part of this thread but, this is what goes on at the weekends.

Part of a test towards a car chase sequence, using stop frame.

Any feedback welcome.

Work on the goat resumes tomorrow. Off to do some research today.

simon

 

Car_test_002.mov

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Hi Simon,

Well having pointed you at this model I thought I had better do a bit to it as well!

So I've done a quick bit more spline tweaking to the version Rodney posted. (Haven't touched the bones).

Still not "there" but a bit less work for you to do hopefully ;)

Goat_WIP002.mdl

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Hi Simon,

Well having pointed you at this model I thought I had better do a bit to it as well!

So I've done a quick bit more spline tweaking to the version Rodney posted. (Haven't touched the bones).

Still not "there" but a bit less work for you to do hopefully ;)

 

 

Mark

Thank you kindly for your work on my behalf, much appreciated.

I did adjust the bones on the one I tweaked, but only because they seemed to be misaligned on the extra's model, with different heights and z axis alignments side to side ?

 

As the models used testify, I don't have a lot of experience modelling and intend to start developing that a bit more when I get started on the project with the car chase in ( Charlie's Birthday ). I'm trying to refine the animation and timing skills with this and the next few shorts.

Thank you for your help.

regards

simon

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Nicely plussed Up Mark!

 

I opened your model and saw a missing spline on a rear leg/hip which I must have missed in my earlier attempt.

I added that back in and then checked the position of the bones and was a bit surprised to see it perfectly aligned.

So... I Right Clicked and did the 'ol Auto Assign.

While there are obvious places where work needs to be done I was impressed by how the Auto Assign did a pretty good job.

 

Back at you (or the next contender in this battle)!

 

Edit: As I was posting I saw what still seems to be some odd spline continuity at the back of the thighs (it can be seen in the attached image):

Update: I replaced the goat with one that has an updated Library icon image.

WIP2A.png

Goat_WIP002a.mdl

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Nicely plussed Up Mark!

 

I opened your model and saw a missing spline on a rear leg/hip which I must have missed in my earlier attempt.

I added that back in and then checked the position of the bones and was a bit surprised to see it perfectly aligned.

So... I Right Clicked and did the 'ol Auto Assign.

While there are obvious places where work needs to be done I was impressed by how the Auto Assign did a pretty good job.

 

Back at you (or the next contender in this battle)!

 

Rodney

Thank you for your help.

I'm starting to blush at this point...

regards

simon

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Well I just couldn't leave it alone!

Like Rodney I just had to fiddle with some more of those original dodgy splines. And having a free hour or so this afternoon...

So here's v3 for you Simon.

Goat_WIP003.mdl

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Well I just couldn't leave it alone!

Like Rodney I just had to fiddle with some more of those original dodgy splines. And having a free hour or so this afternoon...

So here's v3 for you Simon.

 

Mark

Thank you very much for your help. Much appreciated.

I'm working on S14 today, about to start on the goat after blocking in the figures movements, so very timely.

Thank you.

regards

simon

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"I hope we never forget that this all started with a goat." - Dart Wisney

 

Nice update Mark!

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Still working on the camera angle, and animation. No facial gestures or finger movements as yet. Thanks to Mark for his work with the goat.

Any feedback welcome.

regards

simon

 

Ps

This is a VGA conversion from a HD720 render.

 

Why_S14_640.mov

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Hehe.... I like it Simon. Excellent physically based humor.

 

Some minor observations:

 

That goat (he's still being subborn even though he looks great)... He's looking too far down too fast.

Suggestion: Constrain his head to Aim At the character and then adjust the enforncement percentage of that constraint to taste.

Perhaps better yet, Aim it at a Null and constrain the Null to the character.

Then you can just move the Null if the goat doesn't appear to be looking at the right place.

 

The rebound from the tree quite read correctly.

It seems to me that his movement should be:

 

Impact with tree.

Tree goes down

Tree goes down

Tree goes down

Rebound and launch the character.

 

There should be a noticeable buildup (of at least three beats/seconds) before the rebound.

 

I could be wrong about this... I'll look again.

 

For what it's worth, you made me laugh. :D

 

Edit: In looking again it appears that the tree stops on the way up for a few frames rather than move all the way up in one fluid motion. Fix that and I think the motion will work okay. To plus it up even more though I think you need to have the treetop lower just a little bit more. Not only is this a matter of gravity... that tree needs to store up some serious energy in order to launch our hero (that far) up into the air.

 

Well done!

 

One more edit: Okay, I can't leave well enough alone on this one.

New suggestion: In order to exaggerate to the nth degree AND to see the characters reaction to his situation I hope you'll consider bring the characters face full up into the camera (cheat and move his face up to the camera (or render out a separate set of images of his face and composite those over the character if necessary). This would solve the issue of the tree having enough energy and really let us experience the character's dilemma. Draw overs are available upon request if you need them.

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Here's a quick... and failed... attempt to show how close to the camera I think the character could be:

 

Edit: This should work better:

 

If you had the time and inclination you could have the characters eyes closed when he gets to the bottom of the arc and then one eye open as if he thinks he's come to a safe landing (delay a few frames... just enough for the audience to register the face) and then.... whoaaaa.... with both eyes wide open off he goes again.

 

Interestingly, given the new perspective hinted at by the exaggerated movement of the character toward the camera the goat almost appears to be looking in the right place.

fallingup.gif

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Here's a quick... and failed... attempt to show how close to the camera I think the character could be:

 

Edit: This should work better:

 

If you had the time and inclination you could have the characters eyes closed when he gets to the bottom of the arc and then one eye open as if he thinks he's come to a safe landing (delay a few frames... just enough for the audience to register the face) and then.... whoaaaa.... with both eyes wide open off he goes again.

 

Interestingly, given the new perspective hinted at by the exaggerated movement of the character toward the camera the goat almost appears to be looking in the right place.

 

Rodney

Thank you for your reply and continuing help.

I was thinking of doing just that and have the face almost fill the frame, but couldn't get the angle right and didn't want to zoom or move the camera because the goat would be lost then.. I've tried another variation this morning but am going to revise that further this afternoon. Will try to post that this evening.

regards

simon

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Made me laugh too! Great stuff, this guy is having a really bad day!

I also agree with Rodney it would be good to get his face closer to the camera and see some facial expressions and give more "twang" to the tree as it straitens up again.

Possible idea for then keeping the goat in shot in the background would be to move said goat slightly higher up.

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Made me laugh too! Great stuff, this guy is having a really bad day!

I also agree with Rodney it would be good to get his face closer to the camera and see some facial expressions and give more "twang" to the tree as it straitens up again.

Possible idea for then keeping the goat in shot in the background would be to move said goat slightly higher up.

 

Mark

Thank you for your reply and continuing help. Much appreciated.

Still haven't done the facial work but, heres take two on the staging and timing.

revised tree bend, camera angle and head movements, timing on the goat.

regards

simon

 

Why_S14_640.mov

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Well I'm in two minds about the increased foreshortening in the latest post… But the more I look at it the more I think I like it...

With this new angle it might be easier to "cheat", if you need to, with the bending of the tree to get his face into center shot.

And I also like the way he falls closer past the camera at the end with this angle.

 

My personal take might be to be a bit closer in (the blue line) and twist the tree's bend round a bit to get the characters face into the center of the shot (the yellow oval) and looking strait to camera.

In this position even when the viewer's attention is focused on his face the goat is also still visible in center shot.

Talking of whom, maybe get his tail wagging a little so he's not quite so static.

Back to our hero on the end of the tree;

Deceleration toward camera, moving hold (give us time to register his expression, it's change to surprise/shock as he starts to go back) and then acceleration away from camera.

Really work on getting this arc of motion smooth, the character should never really stop moving but we will need time to read his face at the apex of the arc and anticipation of his imminent departure!

S14_Goat_TreeBend.png

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Well I'm in two minds about the increased foreshortening in the latest post… But the more I look at it the more I think I like it...

With this new angle it might be easier to "cheat", if you need to, with the bending of the tree to get his face into center shot.

And I also like the way he falls closer past the camera at the end with this angle...

 

Mark

Thank you for your reply.

I tried not to place the camera slap bang in the middle because I wanted to make it a bit more dynamic. I'll try it to see what happens.

The timing on the tree bend is, as yet, unadjusted. That will be the next port of call I think, then the facial expressions. Its only 5 seconds long so may save the goat's tail movement for the next shot?

regards

simon

 

Ps

the camera is set to 15mm focal length, which is fairly wide angle !

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I hesitate to upload this because it's more of an exploration than it is an answer to your quesiton but... it might be useful?

 

If there is a specific place of interest perhaps you can suggest that and we can narrow the focus.

 

Note that this the video near the end I adjust the camera's focal point.

I think this might be the secret to getting the character up close and personal.

The trick would be to do that without too much distortion.

 

My apologies for the size. It's about 20 minutes boiled down into a 4 minutes speed video.

raw_exploration.mov

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I hesitate to upload this because it's more of an exploration than it is an answer to your quesiton but... it might be useful?

 

If there is a specific place of interest perhaps you can suggest that and we can narrow the focus.

 

Note that this the video near the end I adjust the camera's focal point.

I think this might be the secret to getting the character up close and personal.

The trick would be to do that without too much distortion.

 

My apologies for the size. It's about 20 minutes boiled down into a 4 minutes speed video.

 

 

Rodney

Thank you for the file and your help. I only got it this morning and will watch it slightly later ( domestic duties intervene first ). I did a test render overnight which followed up Mark's suggestion of a more central, closer camera position.

This is a VGA conversion from 720 HD render.

regards

simon

 

Why_S14_640.mov

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That looks good!

 

The part that stands out now is after the launch where the guy goes up and forward when the tree is going up and backward.

It seems to me that he needs to go back up in the direction of the the top of the mountain again (as launched by the tree) before falling again in front of the camera.

I hesitate to even mention this because you've got the earlier problem solved.

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That looks good!

 

The part that stands out now is after the launch where the guy goes up and forward when the tree is going up and backward.

It seems to me that he needs to go back up in the direction of the the top of the mountain again (as launched by the tree) before falling again in front of the camera.

I hesitate to even mention this because you've got the earlier problem solved.

 

Rodney.

Thank you again for your help.

I set this up before starting on the domestics. Is that what you mean ?

regards

simon

 

Why_S14_640.mov

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Yes, that is exactly what I mean.

 

If not keeping him in that trajectory it would probably be better to leave him out of appearing again in front of the camera with the second fall entirely.

As it was he was barely noticed. I had to go back and look again to see what had occurred in those last few frames.

Since nothing else was moving in that general direction I assumed it had to be him.

 

Added: The only crit for this last one (the pre-domestic with him falling twice that is) is that I personally wouldn't end the shot with a crotch shot.

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Yes, that is exactly what I mean.

 

If not keeping him in that trajectory it would probably be better to leave him out of appearing again in front of the camera with the second fall entirely.

As it was he was barely noticed. I had to go back and look again to see what had occurred in those last few frames.

Since nothing else was moving in that general direction I assumed it had to be him.

 

Added: The only crit for this last one (the pre-domestic with him falling twice that is) is that I personally wouldn't end the shot with a crotch shot.

 

 

Rodney

Thank you for your reply. I agree about the last frame. It wasn't intended to be that way, he was supposed to fall all the way through. I mis set the frames in the render option. I've just done the facial changes and a render test is going through now. Will try to post before sleep calls. I think the timing is OK on the tree bend but not sure the facial changes read in the time available, about 12 frames.

 

I tried editing the f curves but messed up his position on the tree as a result so that part of my learning curve may await the next short instead.

Thank you for your help.

regards

simon

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Goo stuff man,very very funny. That poor guy is catching it.

 

Thank you. The final scenes await !

This is the last take on S14 before moving on to S15 tomorrow.

Itried to get a moving hold at the relevant point but it is very difficult to get it to last long enough for the face change to read, without losing the timing on the tree bend.

 

Any feedback welcome.

regards

simon

 

Why_S14.mov

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the goat stares and thinks..................."silly humans.............."

 

looks pretty cool Simon.

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the goat stares and thinks..................."silly humans.............."

 

looks pretty cool Simon.

 

 

Rich

Thank you for your reply.

The goat is going to look over the edge and watch him land, road runner style, in the river below. Going to work out how to get the splash tomorrow.

regards

simon

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First take on Scene 15. The splash when he hits the river will possibly be done by hand but not sure yet.

This is a VGA render but the composition is HD ratio so not all of the goat is visible.

Any feedback welcome.

simonWhy_S15.mov

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Good stuff man,very very funny. That poor guy is catching it.

 

Thank you. The final scenes await !

This is the last take on S14 before moving on to S15 tomorrow.

Itried to get a moving hold at the relevant point but it is very difficult to get it to last long enough for the face change to read, without losing the timing on the tree bend.

 

Any feedback welcome.

regards

simon

 

Why_S14.mov

I like this a lot the expression on the guys face and the timing is spot on.

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it is very difficult to get it to last long enough for the face change to read, without losing the timing on the tree bend.

 

The way to tackle that is just to insert a couple frames where everything except the face freezes in place.

You've already established that a little roadrunner-style pausing is plausible so that shouldn't be an issue.

 

Here's where A:M' nonlinear rendering capability can be put to good use.

Let's say your sequence has 250 frames... (I'm using a random number because I can't check the actual number at this time)

Let's say the guy reaches the bottom at frame 150

what you can do is save that Chor/Project as a second Chor/Project and then go back and adjust frame 150 to manipulate the guys face.

It helps to think in terms of three frame sequences here.

 

Frame 15a might be eyes closed. So render that out with a unique name (like... imagesequence0150a 000.tga)

Render as many frames as you feel are necessary to convey the change that will occur on his face. (I'd say this should probably be no less than 24 frames (1 second) but not more than 72 (3 seconds) *adjust for 30 frames per second as necessary

 

Render out the next look that crosses the guys face as imagesequence0150b 000.tga. Again... 24 to 72 frames.

 

Render out the final look of the guys face as imagesequence0150c 000.

 

Now, in your operating system (or video editor) you can go back in and rename/resequence those frames as you see fit.

Splicing this inner sequence into the main sequence can be done the same.

If brute forcing the edit you'd just have the following:

 

Frames 1 through 150.

New sequence

Renumbered final sequence beginning where the inserted sequence left off.

 

Of course you can do this all in A:M without all the juggling but the preceding is what is happening behind the scenes either way.

You know how many frames you've budgeted for this scene and if all of the images are already rendered you can renumber and reposiition them as needed. When in doubt you can simply go in and duplicate the frames you need to see longer (again suggesting frame 150 so... name the dupes something that will keep them in computer sortable sequence. Then simply replace those frames if needed.

Bottom line: It takes approximately two seconds for a subtle change of expression on the face to fully read so it would be nice to have a slightly longer delay at the very bottom of the guys decent on the tree. If there isn't going to be much of a change of expression then you could likely get away with just inserting a few duplicate frames to pad the held/frozen frame.

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Rodney

 

Thank you for your help and comprehensive reply. The render is going through now so I'll follow up your suggestion tomorrow morning.

Trying to get more productive ( in my old age ), the render is going through in V17 and the next scene is being tested in V15.

 

If only the sound recording would go as well ( sigh ). still thats for another thing anyway..

Thank you.

regards

simon

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I like the goat. I am no expert but I think the splash down looks great.

 

Douglas

Thank you for your reply. I like the goat, but can't claim any credit, It was the work of Mark W and Rodney.

I'm not happy with the splash as yet, and trying to work out what to do with it. Keep getting strange anomalies when I try to edit it together in Final Cut ( frame size seems to keep changing ). The render works OK but the drawn sections in photoshop keep going askew. Curious.

 

Will try to think it through a bit more overnight. The guitar might take a beating in the process...

regards

simon

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Hello again Simon, still giving our hero a hard time I see!

I feel the same as you about the splash I think. So as always this is just my 2c worth of rambling, but...

Seems to me the splash starts OK but then it keeps getting wider and sending up more water when it should be fall back down again.

The area of water that splashes up, that was displaced by his body, should remain more or less constant at its base and not expand out as a ring throwing up more water as it goes.

 

In very general terms, and depending on how an object hits the water, you will most often get two splashes. The first and more dramatic as the object first impacts the surface and displaces the water and then a secondary smaller "spout" at the centre of the impact as the displaced water returns to fill the "gap" (left by the now sinking object) and collides with itself.

(Given the look and feel of this adventure though I would probably forgo that secondary splash)

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Hello again Simon, still giving our hero a hard time I see!

I feel the same as you about the splash I think. So as always this is just my 2c worth of rambling, but...

Seems to me the splash starts OK but then it keeps getting wider and sending up more water when it should be fall back down again.

The area of water that splashes up, that was displaced by his body, should remain more or less constant at its base and not expand out as a ring throwing up more water as it goes.

 

In very general terms, and depending on how an object hits the water, you will most often get two splashes. The first and more dramatic as the object first impacts the surface and displaces the water and then a secondary smaller "spout" at the centre of the impact as the displaced water returns to fill the "gap" (left by the now sinking object) and collides with itself.

(Given the look and feel of this adventure though I would probably forgo that secondary splash)

 

Mark

Thank you for your reply.

As I was going to bed, I thought I'd try a perspective approach to getting the splash to rise, then fall back and have it wash outwards on return ?

On a trivial point, when I used to watch Stingray and Thunderbirds as a kid the only thing that detracted from it for me was that, when they landed in water, the splash was never big enough for the scale of the object ( submarine or aircraft ) involved. I think the splash here is too large as you suggest. Back to the graphics tablet.

 

I had thought of trying it with a bump map using animated %values. Maybe after the perspective.

regards

simon

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Take Two on the splash. Still not happy , any feedback welcome.

There is a curious effect just as he touches down.

 

I rendered the frames in AM at HD1080, as tga files.

Imported those in photoshop and drew a new layer on each for the splash, saving them as psd files.

 

They were then imported into Final Cut ( pro and express had same result ),

The saving as PSD files seems to have altered the aspect ratio of the pixels ?

 

 

When you watch the clip rendered out from Final Cut as a QT file. , the 'letterbox' changes as the PSD files play then go back again with the tga. Even though the file info has them down as the same 1920x1080 size ???

 

regards

simon

 

Why_S15.mov

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When you watch the clip rendered out from Final Cut as a QT file. , the 'letterbox' changes as the PSD files play then go back again with the tga. Even though the file info has them down as the same 1920x1080 size ???

 

Hi Simon- your stuff is looking great! Enjoying the progression! I'd say Photoshop is not the scaling culprit, but I would definitely check your FCP input dialogues... something is amiss there.

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When you watch the clip rendered out from Final Cut as a QT file. , the 'letterbox' changes as the PSD files play then go back again with the tga. Even though the file info has them down as the same 1920x1080 size ???

 

Hi Simon- your stuff is looking great! Enjoying the progression! I'd say Photoshop is not the scaling culprit, but I would definitely check your FCP input dialogues... something is amiss there.

 

 

Mat

Thank you for your reply. I'll look at the FCP input dialogues as you suggest. Its a curious problem that I haven't encountered before.

regards

simon

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Well I like the end of that last one better but prefer the start of the one before I think!

Still seems to be too much water in the air and rather "cubist" in look when its rising up in this new post!

I've taken the liberty of splicing the two posts together here. Admittedly the timing is way off in this (it all happens a bit quick now) but I think something like this looks to be a better volume of splash and shape.

Why_S15_x.mov

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Well I like the end of that last one better but prefer the start of the one before I think!

Still seems to be too much water in the air and rather "cubist" in look when its rising up in this new post!

I've taken the liberty of splicing the two posts together here. Admittedly the timing is way off in this (it all happens a bit quick now) but I think something like this looks to be a better volume of splash and shape.

 

Mark

Thank you for your reply and help. No liberty taken at all.

I drew a perspective box and marked out the increments for the rising column but, now realise, that I was sticking to the rectilinear box a bit too much so will have another go and try to get it more cylindrical this time.

 

I had thought of making it as a 3D splash and scaling the column as a series of poses (?), but think that may be more complicated than the current method. Have to build some lego sets for the stop frame work, so will have a think about it during that.

regards

simon

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Spent today drawing a new splash.

This is it. Not very happy with it but any feedback welcome.

 

Why_S15.mov

 

It was based around a model of the column that I animated in the chor.

On seeing the results I thought to try a render with the model rather than drawing over the wireframe as a rotoscope.

I think I prefer it, although the dissolution at the end needs work.

Something to sleep on.

regards

simon

 

Why_15.mov

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Been a bit diverted by other things so a bit slow developing this scene.

Heres two takes on the same animation.

Any feedback welcome.

regards

simon

 

Why_16.mov

This is a VGA conversion from a 720 render

 

This was a VGA render17_S16.mov

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Hi Simone,

Of those two I think I prefer the second shot, zooming in to him.

I was also wondering if you could maybe get a bit more leg movement in as he crawls out of the water? At the moment he just seems to be pushing with his toes. You would need to rotate his thighs a bit to get his knees pointing slightly out to the sides.

There's also a bit of 'pop' going on with the legs as they over straiten.

 

Is he safe now or do you have more misfortune lined up for him?

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Hi Simone,

Of those two I think I prefer the second shot, zooming in to him.

I was also wondering if you could maybe get a bit more leg movement in as he crawls out of the water? At the moment he just seems to be pushing with his toes. You would need to rotate his thighs a bit to get his knees pointing slightly out to the sides.

There's also a bit of 'pop' going on with the legs as they over straiten.

 

Is he safe now or do you have more misfortune lined up for him?

 

Mark

Thank you for your reply..

I've been out at Cambridge visiting friends as a larger render goes through of both takes, the joys of having V 15 and V17 !

 

I wasn't sure about the leg movements, which is why the toes are doing most of the work in conjunction with the arms. I'll have a closer look at todays renders.

 

It is the last thing to actually befall him, but not the last thing heading his way.

Originally I was going to use dialogue with him and his ex, and may yet do so but, the present idea is to use non word language sounds instead. WWWWWWWWWWWWWAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH !!!!!!!!!!!!! type of thing. I have a friend who is an actor and hope to get him to do it as he loves doing voices.

regards

simon

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