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Simon Edmondson

Why?

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No crit from me.

 

 

Don't jump dude. She ain't worth it!

 

Regarding your previous sequence (clouds blowing... snow falling seq)

 

If it is rain that is suppose to be falling that probably should be more like streaks.

If it is snow... then you've got a nice effect. I felt the cool breeze from it.

 

I like the stylistic choices you are making.

Very unique.

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No crit from me.

 

 

Don't jump dude. She ain't worth it!

 

Regarding your previous sequence (clouds blowing... snow falling seq)

 

If it is rain that is suppose to be falling that probably should be more like streaks.

If it is snow... then you've got a nice effect. I felt the cool breeze from it.

 

I like the stylistic choices you are making.

Very unique.

 

 

Rodney

Thank you for your feedback. I was trying for rain, but may have been influenced by the weather here at the moment ! I wondered if the sandstone was too big a stylistic jump from the earlier scenes. Still working on the setting for the next scene. Hope to post that later this week. Still plugging away.

regards

simon

 

Ps

Did you try the Radio series on the history of Sound ? Its very good, for me anyway.

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Hi Simon!

Yes, the sandstone... I wondered about that, it dose seem a bit at odds with the look the rest of what you've posted so far.

 

Looking forward to seeing the whole tale complete by the way.

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Hi Simon!

Yes, the sandstone... I wondered about that, it dose seem a bit at odds with the look the rest of what you've posted so far.

 

Looking forward to seeing the whole tale complete by the way.

 

 

Mark

Thank you for your feedback.

Tried different settings. Prefer this to the sandstone but perhaps a bit pale ?

regards

simon

 

Why_Scene_Seven_000.jpg

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This may yet be scene 8 but unsure yet.

Any feedback welcome.

simon

 

640x480 conversion from 1080 HD

 

S8.mov

 

Are we looking up a cliff? Something like the cliffs of Dover? Some sort of "sky" in there would help establish the viewpoint.

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Are we looking up a cliff? Something like the cliffs of Dover? Some sort of "sky" in there would help establish the viewpoint.

 

Robert

 

Thank you for your feedback.

I was going to composite the sky in later, as I'm trying to learn how to do that as part of this project.

 

 

S9.mov

 

In the meantime, this was likely to be the camera move in the next shot. He's sitting on a rock and the clouds will be composited ( when I work out what to do with them ! ).

 

I was hoping to have the figure centrally placed and to maintain it as the camera moved around. Placed a Null at the centre of the figure and aimed the camera at that. Made a circular path around the figure, and constrained the camera to that path. With the above result.

 

Is there a way to maintain size and relative position of the figure in the frame other than keying it every 12 frames or so ?

regards

simon

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Is there a way to maintain size and relative position of the figure in the frame other than keying it every 12 frames or so ?

 

A classic approach to that would be to constrain all the objects you want to rotate to a Null and then rotate the Null in front of the stationary camera. The camera then doesn't have to move/rotate around.

 

If going for the camera moving around the scene/object/person you might lathe a cylinder and then use the top or bottom ring created from that as the camera's path. Then constrain the Camera to Aim At the guy or the Null you want in camera.

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Is there a way to maintain size and relative position of the figure in the frame other than keying it every 12 frames or so ?

 

A classic approach to that would be to constrain all the objects you want to rotate to a Null and then rotate the Null in front of the stationary camera. The camera then doesn't have to move/rotate around.

 

If going for the camera moving around the scene/object/person you might lathe a cylinder and then use the top or bottom ring created from that as the camera's path. Then constrain the Camera to Aim At the guy or the Null you want in camera.

 

Rodney

Thank you for your help. I did try to lathe a circle and use that as a path but, when I tried to select it as the target for the path constraint in the chor it seemed to freeze the program for some reason. So, I used it as a guideline and hand keyed the camera position, moving it to the relevant points on the circle instead.

 

Hadn't thought of using a null to constrain , orient and aim at but certainly will next time.

regards

simon

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And here's yet another way it could be done with a Null as a pivot.

Camera constraints:

1: Translate To > Pivot Null

2: Pivot Like Orient Like > Pivot Null

 

I'm sure some sort of expressions could also do it too. But alas I no nothing of those dark arts!

CircleRoundWithCamera.prj

Edited by markw

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2: Pivot Like > Pivot Null

 

You know... I don't think I've ever used a Pivot Like Constraint.

I'll have to try that out! :)

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And here's yet another way it could be done with a Null as a pivot.

Camera constraints:

1: Translate To > Pivot Null

2: Pivot Like > Pivot Null

 

I'm sure some sort of expressions could also do it too. But alas I no nothing of those dark arts!

Mark

Thank you for that I will look at it closely tomorrow.

regards

simon

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Not sure about the animation as yet but, this is the first pass at scene nine . The one with clouds should follow shortly.

Any feedback welcome.

simon

 

 

S9.mov

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Not sure about the animation as yet but, this is the first pass at scene nine . The one with clouds should follow shortly.

Any feedback welcome.

simon

 

 

S9.mov

That's a much better pass around the figure this time.

By the way I've only just noticed a huge typo in my above post on using a Null as a pivot. I've amended it now but hope it didn't confuse you when you then looked at the project file!

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That's a much better pass around the figure this time.

By the way I've only just noticed a huge typo in my above post on using a Null as a pivot. I've amended it now but hope it didn't confuse you when you then looked at the project file!

 

 

Mark

Thank you for your feedback, and thank you for the info on using the null.

I rendered a version with clouds in V17 and got a very strange result which, unfortunately, I can no longer show...

 

I rendered out a 640x480 QT with Alpha turned off. As it went through the render it looked correct but, when it had finished and I played it back, the background came out black with a blue halo around the figure and rock. I converted it with QT pro to get a better file size and ask the question, "What happened"? only to get this,

 

S9_Clouds.mov

 

were the sky came out the right colour ( light blue), not black ???

I will render another, lower res, version to see if the same happens and post it without conversion.

regards

simon

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Heres a low res QT that shows the problem with the background coming out black instead of light blue ? The file size is very large too for a 320x240 mov ?

regards

simon

 

S9_Clouds.mov

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Yes that's certainly odd on the Low-res version.

I have vague memories of this happening to me once. I think it is something to do with the output codecs used.

I see the Low-res one is using 'Animation' as its codecs which I think is the reason but to be honest I'm not sure.

Any way, now the weird bit. If you put your Low-res file through HandBreak and convert it to H.264, it comes out looking as it should! as you can see below. And its a much, much smaller file size.

 

My "go to" movie output from A:M would be 'Apple Intermediate Codecs' as it plays nicely with FCE 4 or the old iMovie HD for something quick (I really don't like the new iMovie) and then when finished editing, output as H.264 or uncompressed and use HandBreak to turn it into H.264.

S9_Clouds_Low_res_After_HandBreak.mp4

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Yes that's certainly odd on the Low-res version.

I have vague memories of this happening to me once. I think it is something to do with the output codecs used.

I see the Low-res one is using 'Animation' as its codecs which I think is the reason but to be honest I'm not sure.

Any way, now the weird bit. If you put your Low-res file through HandBreak and convert it to H.264, it comes out looking as it should! as you can see below. And its a much, much smaller file size.

 

My "go to" movie output from A:M would be 'Apple Intermediate Codecs' as it plays nicely with FCE 4 or the old iMovie HD for something quick (I really don't like the new iMovie) and then when finished editing, output as H.264 or uncompressed and use HandBreak to turn it into H.264.

 

 

Mark

Thank you for your reply.

I re rendered the scene, changing the codec to Apple Intermediate as you suggest. This was the result.S9_Clouds.mov. It has been converted to H264 using QT pro, but it looked the same anyway.

 

I've not heard of HandBreak, is it open source or a commercial product?

regards

simon

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Yes, something happens in the converting, probably not down to what app dose it, just that it needs to get converted for some reason.

 

I've used HandBrake for a long time now to convert things to H.264. Yes its free, you can download it here; http://handbrake.fr/downloads.php

By default, if memory serves, first time out it will want to add file extensions of .mv4 which I think is primarily for mobile devises and may give you playback/uploading to A:M issues. Just change that to .mp4 in the Save dialog box for more universal playback.

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Yes, something happens in the converting, probably not down to what app dose it, just that it needs to get converted for some reason.

 

I've used HandBrake for a long time now to convert things to H.264. Yes its free, you can download it here; http://handbrake.fr/downloads.php

By default, if memory serves, first time out it will want to add file extensions of .mv4 which I think is primarily for mobile devises and may give you playback/uploading to A:M issues. Just change that to .mp4 in the Save dialog box for more universal playback.

 

Mark

Thank you once again for your help. Much appreciated.

regards

simon

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Heres a low res QT that shows the problem with the background coming out black instead of light blue ? The file size is very large too for a 320x240 mov ?

regards

simon

 

S9_Clouds.mov

 

When I play that large uncompressed file - the background looks blue. So I'm not sure what is the problem? Yes sometimes I have noticed that the resultant file (or frame) viewed from within A:M after rendering, the background will look black (as if the alpha was turned on), but it's not in the actual mov file.

 

Yes, your file size is large because the animation codec was used (from A:M? or QTpro?). Animation codec is essentially NO compression, or uncompressed.

 

When I used QT pro to compress your original uncompressed file, (file/export/options/movie to qt movie/settings/ - I used my default or what was set last-not necessarily required: H264, quality high, keyframe rate 48, frame reordering yes, encoding mode multipass, dimensions 320 x 240, data rate automatic, optimized for download) and I got a file size of 967Kb (down from 20MB). (Don't ask me what all those settings mean, I'm just following someone else's suggestion).

 

Hope that helps in using QT pro to compress your A:M frame sequences or movies.

compressionQTPRO.jpg

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...

When I play that large uncompressed file - the background looks blue. So I'm not sure what is the problem? Yes sometimes I have noticed that the resultant file (or frame) viewed from within A:M after rendering, the background will look black (as if the alpha was turned on), but it's not in the actual mov file.

 

Yes, your file size is large because the animation codec was used (from A:M? or QTpro?). Animation codec is essentially NO compression, or uncompressed.

 

When I used QT pro to compress your original uncompressed file, (file/export/options/movie to qt movie/settings/ - I used my default or what was set last-not necessarily required: H264, quality high, keyframe rate 48, frame reordering yes, encoding mode multipass, dimensions 320 x 240, data rate automatic, optimized for download) and I got a file size of 967Kb (down from 20MB). (Don't ask me what all those settings mean, I'm just following someone else's suggestion).

 

Hope that helps in using QT pro to compress your A:M frame sequences or movies.

 

Nancy

Thank you for your help. I did another test and changed the codec for the render and it came out blue as well. It seems to be a problem, as Mark suggested, with the uncompressed form ? When I converted the original render with QT pro it came out blue then even though the original was black with blue outlines !

 

I animate with fps set to 25 ( PAL) as thats the video standard here. Are you working to 2x24, which I think is traditional film rate, or is that the format you use for QT conversion ? My knowledge of these area is very minimal.

regards

simon

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I did another test and changed the codec for the render and it came out blue as well. It seems to be a problem, as Mark suggested, with the uncompressed form ? When I converted the original render with QT pro it came out blue then even though the original was black with blue outlines !

 

I animate with fps set to 25 ( PAL) as thats the video standard here. Are you working to 2x24, which I think is traditional film rate, or is that the format you use for QT conversion ? My knowledge of these area is very minimal.

regards

simon

 

I am still not understanding "black with blue outlines" ? I haven't seen it in your renders - can you do just one frame/still so we can see what you're talking about? Like I said - if you only see it within A:M and it does not show in the final movie- could it be a Mac only display thing?

 

I also don't have a choice of "Apple intermediate codec" for rendering to a QT movies from A:M. It must be a Mac only thing? I've uploaded image to show the options (codecs) I have for creating QT movie from A:M. If I were to do a mov, then I would probably choose none.

 

However, I typically render to frame sequences from A:M (jpg, tga, png). Then I import those sequences into QT pro - save as a file.mov (with no compression). AND then export another version (different name) with compression (with settings that I showed up above). Then I can play ad nauseum with the compression, frame size settings, to find some compromise between size and quality, if I have saved the original QT mov uncompressed. There could be different optimal values for each movie, based on how noisy, or quickly the imagery changes in the original. That's the nature of the beast of compression.

 

I use 24 fps or 12fps (stop mo look) in A:M (and QT pro) - because it's easy for me to divide (2, 3, 6, 8, 12, 24) and traditional animation (and film?) used those rates. If you are delivering to video then you would have to convert somewhere else to Pal - so for you, if it's easier to use 25 then it's whatever works. If I were delivering to video here (29.97 fps) then I too would probably have to do a conversion (premiere, AE) or live with slightly off sync sound? I too am not that familiar with the consequences, so don't listen to me.

compressiontypesAvailAMQT.jpg

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If I may; attached here Nancey is a screen grab from the large "faulty" clip Simon posted. Why it looks like this on our Macs and not to you on a PC has me stumped but for us a quick run through re-compressing in QT or HandBrake and it comes out looking as it should and did look when it was still in A:M.

Not totally sure but yes I think "Apple Intermediate Codec" is a Mac thing most likely, for use with their editing software.

Incidentally I just counted 67 movie compression options for rendering out a movie from A:M! I think it must have access to whatever has been installed on the system by other video software.

Screen_shot_2013_03_31_at_23.04.19.png

Screen_shot_2013_03_31_at_22.58.07.png

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Mark and Nancy

Thank you for your help. I have noticed previously that, if I edit in FCP and use a different codec , then that codec is set in AM as well. That can sometimes cause problems.

 

I just rendered out a section at HD720 and here are some screen grabs to try and illustrate what is happening at this end.

 

Render settings

Render_settings.jpg

 

Render in progress

Render_in_Progress.jpg

 

Uncompressed Mov

Uncompressed_Mov.jpg

 

The same Mov file after compression in QT pro.

 

QT_Compressed.jpg

 

I did try using Apple Intermittent and it came out correct. A puzzle, right enough !

regards

simon

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If I may; attached here Nancey is a screen grab from the large "faulty" clip Simon posted. Why it looks like this on our Macs and not to you on a PC has me stumped but for us a quick run through re-compressing in QT or HandBrake and it comes out looking as it should and did look when it was still in A:M.

Not totally sure but yes I think "Apple Intermediate Codec" is a Mac thing most likely, for use with their editing software.

Incidentally I just counted 67 movie compression options for rendering out a movie from A:M! I think it must have access to whatever has been installed on the system by other video software.

 

Thanks Mark. Ah ha! now I see what you're talking about.

 

I am now suspecting that your player for QT movies (more recent than mine, and different) has some funny setting. I use an old version of QTpro & player, and when I open Simon's big original file - the transparency settings are set to dither, and the background looks blue, as expected. However, if I change transparency to pre-multiplied with white in the QT player, I get white for the background, if I change it to pre-multiplied with black, I get other weirdness. So it looks like the alpha channel is encoded somehow in the file from A:M, even tho, the option was turned off in A:M, but the player knows what is in the alpha channel, and what isn't.

 

Check the properties of the movie in the player if you can?

 

EDIT: - I just noticed that when I compress Simon's file in QT pro, and re-open that file, that changing the transparency settings has no effect, so that the background does look blue no matter what setting I choose. Yes perhaps the animation codec, and none codec has alpha info, but the others (intermediate, etc) don't.

 

I also just noticed that when I rendered something to mov file (16b 32 bit) with none codec, that file came in with dither in the QT player, and the sky was the color it should be. Changing to premultiplied white caused the imagery to have white background, even tho I had alpha off when rendering.

transparencysettinginplayer.jpg

Edited by NancyGormezano

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...

 

Check the properties of the movie in the player if you can?

 

...

 

 

Nancy

Thank you for your help once again. I can't seem to access the properties in the player I have ( QT7 ) I'll try later on a PC.

regards

simon

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You need to go to 'Window' in the tool bar and then choose your desired properties window.

QT 7 offers a surprising amount of tinkering possibilities over the newer QT X. But QT X lets you make screen recordings with sound!

Screen_shot_2013_04_01_at_14.41.34.png

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You need to go to 'Window' in the tool bar and then choose your desired properties window.

QT 7 offers a surprising amount of tinkering possibilities over the newer QT X. But QT X lets you make screen recordings with sound!

 

 

Mark

Thank you very much for that. Obvious when you know how but, could I find it ...!

regards

simoin

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Scene Ten, still in development. The white patches at the bottom aren't there in 1080HDD ( Honest ! ).

My brother suggest the mountains need more by way of contrast ?

Any feedback welcome.

regards

simon

 

 

S10.mov

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Hi Simon, I think I would have to agree with your brother on that one.

Maybe a more purplish shade for them?

Not knowing anything about the context of the shot, but the large amount of blue at the top bothers me as well. Maybe consider moving the cloud layer/s up to cover/fill it. By raising them up it would also help distinguish cloud from mountain at the bottom of the shot.

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Hi Simon, I think I would have to agree with your brother on that one.

Maybe a more purplish shade for them?

Not knowing anything about the context of the shot, but the large amount of blue at the top bothers me as well. Maybe consider moving the cloud layer/s up to cover/fill it. By raising them up it would also help distinguish cloud from mountain at the bottom of the shot.

 

Mark

 

Thank you for your feedback I shall try your suggestions straight away.

regards

simon

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That's definitely helped define sky from land now!

 

I've taken the liberty of messing with that last clip.

Here are two screenshots from it. One is as is and the other is with a slightly purple tint to the mountains to define them better. What do you think?

S10_2_Original.png

S10_2_Coloured_Mountains.png

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That's definitely helped define sky from land now!

 

I've taken the liberty of messing with that last clip.

Here are two screenshots from it. One is as is and the other is with a slightly purple tint to the mountains to define them better. What do you think?

 

 

Mark

No liberty perceived. I tried to change the colour of the mountains but didn't get very far. I will try again.

Thank you for your help.

regards

simon

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[ One is as is and the other is with a slightly purple tint to the mountains to define them better. What do you think?

 

Herein one modified mountain scape with Blue 'remembered hills', ( Blue Remembered Hills was a terrific TV play by the writer Dennis Potter ) .

Any Feedback welcome

regards

simon

 

S10.mov

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Ooo, thats going back a bit,1979! and yes a terrific play written by someone that new the value of story and characters over eye candy.

 

As for your story and character, I'm ready for S11 now!

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Ooo, thats going back a bit,1979! and yes a terrific play written by someone that new the value of story and characters over eye candy.

 

As for your story and character, I'm ready for S11 now!

 

Mark

After "Pennies from Heaven" and before "The Singing Detective", missed the former but loved the latter.

Working on S12 at the moment, as I need to get some vocals done for S11. Will post when ready.

Thank you for your help.

regards

simon

 

Ps

Potter was the first to use the camera moves around a character as they speak, in one continuous take so it becomes a character too. I think that was in Blackeyes in the mid 80's after Detective ? It became very widely, and over, used later. Notably in "Homicide:Life on the street" but, thats another subject altogether...

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S12 in progress. Some facial and finger movements still underway. I haven't worked out how to do it yet but, after the lightening strikes, the rock is going to heat up very hot, which is why he's jumping from foot to foot before jumping off.

Any feedback welcome

simon

S12.mov

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Hi Simon,

I've not been on the forum of late but if you don't mind I have some thoughts on S12.

As always do feel free to ignore my ramblings !

 

So, although its a cartoon, a little bit of real physics might help sell the action!

The rock should be at its hottest, therefore brightest immediately after the lightning strikes and continue to loose heat as it cools unless more energy is put back in.

At the moment you have effectively 1 lightning strike at the start but the rock seems to heat up again during the course of the action, which to me looks a little odd as is.

As this scene is 6 seconds I think you have time to get another lightning strike in to account for this and it might also emphasise how much energy is heating the rock as he hops about getting closer to the edge.

(I took the liberty of making a little story board!)

LightningStrike.jpg

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Hi Simon,

I've not been on the forum of late but if you don't mind I have some thoughts on S12.

As always do feel free to ignore my ramblings !

 

So, although its a cartoon, a little bit of real physics might help sell the action!

The rock should be at its hottest, therefore brightest immediately after the lightning strikes and continue to loose heat as it cools unless more energy is put back in.

At the moment you have effectively 1 lightning strike at the start but the rock seems to heat up again during the course of the action, which to me looks a little odd as is.

As this scene is 6 seconds I think you have time to get another lightning strike in to account for this and it might also emphasise how much energy is heating the rock as he hops about getting closer to the edge.

(I took the liberty of making a little story board!)

 

 

Mark

Thank you for your help. I agree about the lightening strike. I'm slightly reticent to follow your suggestion because the next but one scene after this one, has another lightening strike and three strikes might be testing the bounds of incredulity too far? I rationalised it as the heat would spread through the rock after the strike, even though rock is not the best of conductors.

 

The application for my narrative licence is in the post... !

 

I've got a bigger res test going through now and will look at that and readjust the colour and glow timings accordingly. I was pleasantly surprised by the glow effect when the lightening strikes. Its the temp diffusion thats the tricky part now.

regards

simon

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So there's going to be more lightning you say later. Better make sure I'm properly earthed!

Of those last two tests, I think I prefer No:4. May be a bit more yellow in it at the start just after the strike?

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So there's going to be more lightning you say later. Better make sure I'm properly earthed!

Of those last two tests, I think I prefer No:4. May be a bit more yellow in it at the start just after the strike?

 

 

Mark

Thank you for your feedback and help.

I was misunderstanding the role of the diffuse decal so have tried another version.

regards

simon

 

 

revised again (!!!), no indecision here, maybe...

Revised_S12.mov

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Looks pretty straightforward to me.

If you are looking for suggestions I would say that you could have a little progression in the character's fall; three primary poses:

 

1: Initialing falling

2: Fully falling

3: Anticipating the next scene (the result of which I assume to be 'landing')

 

I would not make those poses overly obvious but you might have to exaggerate them somewhat in order for them to properly read.

 

In looking again I see an opportunity to do the ol' 'go one way before you go the other' anticipation.

And you wouldn't have to do much to convey this.

 

The character could simply open his arms more fully outward before bringing them back in again.

So:

 

- Arms slightly out as you have them at the top of the fall

- Arms fully extended (mid fall)

- Arms brought back in as he nears the bottom of the screen

 

You might be able to do something similar with the legs but I would hold back on this so as not to make the whole character look floaty.

Perhaps you could linearly extend one leg out straight as his decent progresses. This would suggest some weight and drag.

Think in terms of... squashing and stretching.

 

Added: Note on the previous shot: If you don't follow the suggestion to increase the red/hot/foot-moving color to provide motivation for the dancing perhaps you could add a slight bit of smoke effect to suggest his feet are effected by the heat. Right now it's not reading as he is dancing because his feet are hot although I can see where that can be interpolated. Also, it seems a bit strange to have him so far over to the side near the beginning of the dance. I'd love to see him move that way -while- dancing. Hope that make sense.

 

Edit: Okay, I've seen a shot where he does dance over to the edge of the cliff and another where he is already there. Perhaps this is more due to the camera angle than anything. It seems to me that he is consciously moving closer to the edge of the cliff which is an odd thing for him to do. Perhaps if he lifted his head upward as if to scream 'ouch. ouch. ouch.' then he wouldn't see where he was perilously dancing. As with most anticipatory moves he would likely look down at his feet just before lifting his head fully. This would provide a normal reaction to the delay of signals from feet to brain. i.e. "I feel somethings not right at my feet." "No wonder... my shoes are smoking!" "Yikes! It's really hot down there!"

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On S12, it is possible to do a long "hang-time" at the top of the jump but he can't really hang there, it's a matter of slowly passing thru that peak rather than stopping at it.

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On S12, it is possible to do a long "hang-time" at the top of the jump but he can't really hang there, it's a matter of slowly passing thru that peak rather than stopping at it.

 

I agree with Robert here.

Unless you are going for one of those 'Wiley Coyote' acts of defying gravity just before plummeting down... in which case you really need to show a close up of his facial reaction. The recognition of the character of what is happening is so necessary to complete that type of delayed effect. It also helps establish that in this environment the laws of physics don't always work as expected.

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On S12, it is possible to do a long "hang-time" at the top of the jump but he can't really hang there, it's a matter of slowly passing thru that peak rather than stopping at it.

 

I agree with Robert here.

Unless you are going for one of those 'Wiley Coyote' acts of defying gravity just before plummeting down... in which case you really need to show a close up of his facial reaction. The recognition of the character of what is happening is so necessary to complete that type of delayed effect. It also helps establish that in this environment the laws of physics don't always work as expected.

 

 

Rodney and Robert

Thank you for your replies.

Drat !!! I have been watching a lot of Wile Coyote recently and the next scene will be the giveaway in that regard. I was trying for a slow hang, he does a double take as he realises what hes jumped off and to, but will have to rework that.

I'm working on the canyon he falls into at the moment, he meets the goat half way down... it really is his lucky day!

regards

simon

 

Canyon_02.jpg

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