It was a dark and stormy night.

[Simon Edmondson]

With a big thank you to Nancy and Rob for their help last week.

Here is the opening scene for a (very ) short I'm developing.

Any feedback is very welcome., as critical as you can. Theres no sound yet

regards

simonLightening.mov

[Gerry]

Well that's an interesting start! It will be interesting to see where this goes!

[MMZ_TimeLord]

Why is it raining in the mirror? (Looks like a mirror that is getting rained on.) Good job with the rest.

[Simon Edmondson]

Why is it raining in the mirror? (Looks like a mirror that is getting rained on.) Good job with the rest.

 

 

Its supposed to be a window rather than a mirror.

Perhaps I should turn the reflectivity down and put some more light outside ?

simon

[Kamikaze]

Hey I like it...yes it does look like a mirror ..... less reflection trees or buildings outside?

[Simon Edmondson]

Hey I like it...yes it does look like a mirror ..... less reflection trees or buildings outside?

 

 

I was trying to keep it as simple as I could. I thought of adding curtains, a roller blind or venetian blinds. Not sure yet.

simon

[Simon Edmondson]

I added Curtains but it still perhaps needs to get the transparency to avoid looking like a mirror ?

I tried to get car lights going past but they didn't show up through the maps for the rain.

Any suggestions as to how to achieve this ?

regards

simon

 

Stormy.mov

[TheSpleen]

the reflection of a tree when lightening flashes would remove the mirror curse

[Simon Edmondson]

the reflection of a tree when lightening flashes would remove the mirror curse

 

I was thinking of trying to turn off the maps at that point and make the window transparent as material so as to see outside ?

 

Simon

 

 

Ps

I like the phrase "remove the mirror curse" ...

[pixelplucker]

Reflection can work but I would turn it off as the lightning flashes revealing an outside environment. Maybe a background image that is gloomy.

at the same time showing the rain on the glass looks like it is on the inside of the window. I would only show the rain when the outside is showing.

 

The lightning effect is pretty nice. Once you make those changes and add the sfx it should be pretty convincing.

[Simon Edmondson]

Comped a rough background into the scene. Is this the sort of thing suggested ?

simon

 

 

Stormy02.mov

[pixelplucker]

Can't seem to be able to view it here, not sure why.

[TheSpleen]

Comped a rough background into the scene. Is this the sort of thing suggested ?

simon

 

 

Stormy02.mov

the plugin stopped working, closed browser

[Simon Edmondson]

Stormy02.mov

the plugin stopped working, closed browser

 

I'll see if I can output it differently.

[Simon Edmondson]

I'll see if I can output it differently.

 

Stormy03.mov

 

Lower res and quality done with H264...

[NancyGormezano]

I'll see if I can output it differently.

 

Stormy03.mov

 

Lower res and quality done with H264...

 

Works for me. Both this QT and the effect. A compressed 182kb QT is good enough to get a feel for what's going on. A 6.2Mb is overkill for a 2 second movie.

 

If you don't want to see the reflection (of what I presume to be) the room in the window, you can try lowering the reflectivity falloff of the glass window so that only the man, or anything standing close to the window will be reflected. If that is supposed to be a courtyard outside the house or you want to see the reflection of the whole room, then never mind.

 

Nice effect!

[Simon Edmondson]

If you don't want to see the reflection (of what I presume to be) the room in the window, you can try lowering the reflectivity falloff of the glass window so that only the man, or anything standing close to the window will be reflected. If that is supposed to be a courtyard outside the house or you want to see the reflection of the whole room, then never mind.

 

Nancy

 

Thank you as ever for your feedback. Would you adjust the rflectivity falloff in the maps, the render or the materials?

regards

simon

 

ps

the overkill was caused by the render resolution (honest !)

[NancyGormezano]

If you don't want to see the reflection (of what I presume to be) the room in the window, you can try lowering the reflectivity falloff of the glass window so that only the man, or anything standing close to the window will be reflected. If that is supposed to be a courtyard outside the house or you want to see the reflection of the whole room, then never mind.

 

Nancy

 

Thank you as ever for your feedback. Would you adjust the rflectivity falloff in the maps, the render or the materials?

regards

simon

 

ps

the overkill was caused by the render resolution (honest !)

 

Reflectivity falloff is found in surface/refelectivity/falloff

 

The default is some big number (don't know what it is - comes up as unset?) First, try with a test case without decals to see what it does. Make something reflective, give it something to reflect. Then start decreasing the falloff (try 10cm - note that anything further than 10cm won't reflect). You must set reflectivity percent in group surface property, before those additional properties show up.

[Simon Edmondson]

Nancy

 

Thank you once again. I shall test away.

regards

simon

 

Ps

Thats a fab colour/texture on your model. Unusually for 3D cg you have a very tactile sense of surface and colour

[Gerry]

Simon, I also think there shouldn't be any lightning illumination on the curtains or ceiling.

[Simon Edmondson]

Simon, I also think there shouldn't be any lightning illumination on the curtains or ceiling.

 

 

Blast !!!

 

I've just set it up that way...

 

Oh well, I'll let that one go through and do one without overnight.

 

simon

[Gerry]

Well, when the light hits the ceiling it looks like light is leaking over top of the wall, mainly.

[Simon Edmondson]

Well, when the light hits the ceiling it looks like light is leaking over top of the wall, mainly.

 

I may have misunderstood your suggestion ?. I had tried to protect against that by double skinning the walls an making the leading edge slightly bigger than the wall behind it ( if that makes sense ?). I'd noticed the effect but wondered if that was what happened in 'real' lightening flashes when the glare is overwhelming and gets bounced all around the room. ( that was more of hope I suspect ).

 

Here is the latest version with the reflectivity modified an the internal light adjusted for fall of and position. There is no outdoor scene comped in yet as, regrettably. I have to go to bed shortly. Drat.

 

Stormy.mov

 

regards

simon

[Simon Edmondson]

A curiosity ?

 

I just did a wireframe of the scene to try a timing change on the turn.

The same scene, same resolution, duration and codec ( H264 ), came out as 9.7Mb for the fully shaded version and 27.8 Mb for the wireframe.

I thought the wireframe was more economic in file size ?

simon

[pixelplucker]

Gerry is right, the light leaks over the top of the wall where the window is. You may want to extend the wall past the ceiling. Lighting should work better.

 

I'm thinkin the wireframe images have more variation in color over smaller areas so they compress less making the files bigger assuming there is a jpg compressor being used which averages across xxx# of pixels in blocks and reduces the color.

 

I used to us 2%-4% noise to reduce the blockiness that comes with jpg compressing. Not sure where you could add that in AM or if it has to be done in video post.

 

Scene is coming together nice.

[Simon Edmondson]

I extended the front wall, as you can see here, from a rear 3/4 view.

 

 

I still get this result though

 

 

The front wall is double skinned and the side walls single.

 

regards

simon

[Gerry]

Hm, that's a stumper. What kind of light are you using for the lightning (not that i would know how to advise you either way... )?

 

EDIT: here's another observation: When the lightning flashes, the ceiling in the reflection is more brightly lit further back in the room, which is odd! So in combination with the light "leaking" close to the wall, the illusion of lightning is really not working to its best advantage. I wish I could explain it better, but I hope that helps.

[Simon Edmondson]

Hm, that's a stumper. What kind of light are you using for the lightning (not that i would know how to advise you either way... )?

 

Its a Klieg ( ?) with the shadows set to z buffer rather than ray traced.

The lightening effect is simply done by boosting the intensity to 600% or more, for a single frame, then two or three frames later back to zero. Using the interpolation curve to get the flicker effect. ?

 

Theres an interior bulb light casting no shadows and, at the end, some more kliegs to get the wall lights look.

 

regards

simon

[NancyGormezano]

You may have to use a light list (that contains only the lightning lite) for the outside, if you don't want the inside of room (ceiling) to be lit up. You can use a different light for the inside of room.

 

Show us your chor setup (PWS, top down, side, wireframe, etc), and we could help better...maybe...I'm having a hard time guessing what your setup is.

 

What kind of light are you using for the lightning? (klieg? bulb? sun?).

 

EDIT: Just saw your previous post: which way is your klieg pointing? and are you sure it is outside the room?

 

_________________________________

 

And yes, a wireframe render will more likely have a larger compressed file size, than a shaded render when compressed, because there is more information in the imagery. The more variation in the imagery (from frame to frame), the harder it is to compress and get a smaller file size.

 

How are you compressing your movs? The best way is to generate uncompressed image sequences of pngs or tgas (eg: image001.png...image00N.png) - and then import & compress the image sequence in QT Pro (or some other editor) with h264.

[Simon Edmondson]

EDIT: Just saw your previous post: which way is your klieg pointing? and are you sure it is outside the room?

 

_________________________________

How are you compressing your movs? The best way is to generate uncompressed image sequences of pngs or tgas (eg: image001.png...image00N.png) - and then import & compress the image sequence in QT Pro (or some other editor) with h264.

 

I will try to get the PWS shots later.

 

The exterior Klieg is facing the window and pointed at the figure. To scale, it is a few metres away from the wall. The position is static throughout, only the intensity changes.

How would a light list be set up. Is there a reference to it in the technical manual ?

 

I normally use the default settings within AM to compress the movies when testing. When rendering I output as sequential frames, usually .tga, and then assemble in Final Cut Pro with the sound. Still trying to find the best codec setting but, at the moment, use 1080 Prores25 as someone on the Apple site, more professional than I, recommended it.

regards

simon

[NancyGormezano]

The exterior Klieg is facing the window and pointed at the figure. To scale, it is a few metres away from the wall. The position is static throughout, only the intensity changes.

How would a light list be set up. Is there a reference to it in the technical manual ?

 

Ok. Now I'm not so sure that a light list would work for you, However, one would: Drag the klieg light and drop it on top of the outside models (uh...the trees?) - A dialog should pop up - and you would select which option you'd like - usually it's to just to include the light for this model and exclude it from lighting any other models. (see first image) The light will now only illuminate those models which have it in their light list.

 

BUT In your case - it sounds as if you have the ceiling illuminated by the klieg (perhaps aim it differently?) OR you haven't set the reflectivity falloff low enough? or some combo of the 2. I believe we are seeing the ceiling reflection in the glass. In my example the first render is with the double paned glass having a falloff of 200 cm - and we don't see a reflection of the floor. In the 2nd example, the falloff is 10000 cm and we see a reflection of the floor.

 

(my double reflections are a result of there being 2 panes of glass, and the waviness is due to the bump map. Unfortunately the peacock, which is outside the window - doesn't seem to get wavified...whereas I thought it should....hmmmm....)

 

EDIT: And a simpler solution for you - might be to make the ceiling a dark/black? color for this shot (only?) - and 100% ambiant if you don't want to see the reflection of it in the glass.

Edited August 8, 2012 by NancyGormezano

[Simon Edmondson]

This is the PWS for the chor used

 

This is the Top view of that setup

 

This is the side view

 

There are no objects outside the window as I was trying to keep the whole thing as simple as I could. Following an earlier suggestion I did composit in a still but I prefer it without to be honest.

 

Looking in my own window as I type ( rural location so no real need for curtains ) the ceiling is less visible than the rest of the room in the window reflection and tends to be strongest in the area closest to the light source. I shall try Nancy's suggestion of ambient falloff to get that result on the ceiling.

 

regards

simon

[Gerry]

Good luck Simon, this is an interesting problem. I think you'll figure it out, and maybe teach us something in the process.

[Simon Edmondson]

Good luck Simon, this is an interesting problem. I think you'll figure it out, and maybe teach us something in the process.

 

Thank you Gerry.

I wish I had your confidence about it though !

I was thinking of ~Following Nancy's suggestion about lighting lists and making the ceiling a separate model so it could be excluded ?

The problem is, I quite like it with the ceiling going white because, although its not 'correct' it does almost fit with my idea of lightening ( I suspect that may be "fuzzy Logic" on my part though).

 

I did try this but I'm going to bed to think about it and try again in the morning. I did notice as it was going through that it went darker with each succesive render pass? This one had 64 because it wasn't going to take too long. The mov's only had one pass and the stills were going through on 16 at 1080HD because the render times were up to 20 mins per frame.

 

regards

simon

[NancyGormezano]

I was thinking of ~Following Nancy's suggestion about lighting lists and making the ceiling a separate model so it could be excluded ?

The problem is, I quite like it with the ceiling going white because, although its not 'correct' it does almost fit with my idea of lightening ( I suspect that may be "fuzzy Logic" on my part though).

 

I did notice as it was going through that it went darker with each succesive render pass? This one had 64 because it wasn't going to take too long. The mov's only had one pass and the stills were going through on 16 at 1080HD because the render times were up to 20 mins per frame.

 

I don't think you need to make a light list for this case. I believe you can get away with just making your ceiling black.

 

I tried your config - put the klieg outside the room (made it 300%), and made the floor surface color black (0,0,0) so that it would be excluded from the reflection, ie it would not be illuminated. For your case, you could make your ceiling black, if you decide you don't want it to show in the reflection. You do not need to fool with ambiant intensity of the ceiling (wrong advice on my part), nor the reflectivity falloff of the window probably.

 

Not sure why your renders are taking so long, but I have found that doing final, multipass off, is usually quicker than FINAL 5 pass. You definitely don't need 64 passes! That's overkill for that kind of low detail models, textures. And yes each pass does change and seem to darken, but eventually I find that additional passes makes no real difference. My renders (640 x480) are taking 20-30 secs at final multipass off.

 

It may be different for Macs (or your particular mac), it may be a A:M version difference as well as to why you are taking 20 minutes/frame. It may be some other setting that isn't obvious yet. In addition to tooooo many passes, Soft reflections will add time and # reflectivity levels? and what are allllll those lights!!!! doing in your chor?

[Simon Edmondson]

A simple solution, but not the answer, occurred this morning.

 

Stormy_000.mov

 

I simply hid the ceiling on the model.

It works but I think it does need the ceiling reflected in the window to give a better feel to the reflection (?)

 

I wondered if Baking the textures/materials onto the model might do it ? I don't know anything about that except what I've read in various comics. So I looked in the reference manual to see how it might be done, only it does not seem to be an option ?

 

I'll try another few options this afternoon, in between the domestic duties ( sigh ).

 

The multitude of lights in the chor only comes into play in the last few frames and is supposed to be the wall lights that the figure turns on at the end. The reflections could be seen in the original mov post.

 

regards

simon

[Simon Edmondson]

I think I might have found an answer (?)

 

I double skinned the ceiling, but that didn't fix it. Tried it with Black for the ceiling but I didn't like that. So, while casting around as to what to try next, thought I'd try shifting the position of the light. Now, instead of pointing perpendicularly at the window it is above and at an angle to it, aiming at a Null in the figure position of the first frame.

 

Does this work better ?

 

regards

simon

 

Stormy_000.mov

 

PS

I should perhaps add, I'm working with V15J, in OSX 10.68

[Gerry]

I think both of those solutions work much better, and the first one, with the ceiling hidden, is the better of the two. Another thought I had, just to complicate your life, would be to show the bolt of lightning outside, but only on the first flash. I think it would add to the drama and shock of that first flash.

[Simon Edmondson]

I think both of those solutions work much better, and the first one, with the ceiling hidden, is the better of the two. Another thought I had, just to complicate your life, would be to show the bolt of lightning outside, but only on the first flash. I think it would add to the drama and shock of that first flash.

 

 

Gerry

 

Thank you for your suggestions. I must admit that I prefer the one with the ceiling, ( possibly because of the literalist within me... )

 

I'll see what I can do about a lightening bolt but it may get comped in rather than placed within the scene.

 

On a trivial note, theres a UK musician called Jake Bugg recently had a hit with a song called "Lightening Bolt". Terrific performance.

 

Will try for the bolt tomorrow.

regards

simon

[NancyGormezano]

I also think either works. And probably prefer the ceiling removed as well since the light leak with the wall doesn't show.

 

This shot is being taken out of context, is very short, and won't be examined in the same excruciating detail in the final short, as we have been doing. I take this as an exercise to figure out what is happening as mainly for learning more about how to control A:M, and being able to get what you want out of it. (light leak will more than likely go unnoticed in final short).

 

If you want to remove any lingering doubts about window versus mirror, something outside the window, like lightning bolts (good idea!), or trees, landscape, then it being a window, will be more convincing.

 

As for versions, I do believe that Mac users have reported significant speed ups in rendering in ver 16b & 17 versus results in version 15. I can't verify my suspicions.

 

I am curious: removing the ceiling works of course, but why didn't making the ceiling black work? It should have looked the same. No? If you made the color something other than 0,0,0 then it would probably still show up.

 

EDIT: hmmm...just tried to imagine why black ceiling would look different from removing ceiling - now I think I know why

Edited August 9, 2012 by NancyGormezano

[Simon Edmondson]

I thought it best to check on the same frame so, here are the results,

 

With the ceiling

 

No ceiling

 

Black ceiling

 

 

I'll have a bash at the lightening bolt in a short while.

regards

simon

[markw]

...As for versions, I do believe that Mac users have reported significant speed ups in rendering in ver 16b & 17 versus results in version 15. I can't verify my suspicions...

Oh its true, its true, its much faster than 15j!

A few odd Mac bugs but Steffen is squishing them even now. Actually I'm using 17beta5 but rendering with 17.0 to get around the bugs.

I have great hopes for 17.a when it comes.

[NancyGormezano]

I thought it best to check on the same frame so, here are the results,

 

Hmmm. Now I definitely prefer it with the ceiling (either black or whatever color the 1st image is). The one without the ceiling and the way you currently have the light aimed, produces a weird illumination of the thickness at the top of the wall.

[Simon Edmondson]

Lightening_Wire.mov

 

Heres a quick pass at an idea for lightening. This is a wire to give idea of movement,

 

This is a first go at making it glow. 100% successful as you can see ( joke )

Lightening.mov

 

Nancy

The one you prefer in the larger res is the original ceiling but with the light in the new position.

Perhaps I should experiment with the light position a bit more ?

Unfortunately I have to go off to bed soon. ( drat ) the morn awaits.

regards

simon

[Gerry]

Here's another thought, why not make the wall/ceiling continuous geometry instead of separate objects? Then you can color wall and ceiling however you like, and I *think* that would solve the light leak, no?

 

Your lightning bolt effects aren't working for me. I think it would be a static shape that would just glow sharply and suddenly. That's one approach, anyway.

[Simon Edmondson]

Your lightning bolt effects aren't working for me. I think it would be a static shape that would just glow sharply and suddenly. That's one approach, anyway.

 

Gerry

 

I must away shortly but, How would you adjust the glow that strongly ?

 

I was just playing in my excitement at the shapes and material settings. I'll have a proper go at it tomorrow.

regards

simon

[Gerry]

when I was watching the weather report this morning they had a "lightning" graphic and it got me thinking that maybe (assuming you want to take a detour into doing a lightning bolt) you should look at YouTube to see if (that's silly, OF COURSE YouTube has this!) YouTube has some videos of lightning that might serve as inspiration.

 

I would think there are a couple of ways to do this in AM, but offhand I'm not sure how you'd do it.

 

EDIT: the quick and dirty way that comes to mind is to create a 10-frame graphic in Photoshop and put an animated decal on a layer or just a panel in the background.

[Simon Edmondson]

Gerry

Thank you for your suggestions.

 

I was thinking about it overnight and here is a first stab at it this morning. I know lightening doesn't last two seconds (?) but it was just to make it more visible.

 

Lightening.mov

 

This is a single image using the same model and setting. Its all done with material settings and lights. A bit rough yet but, was this the type of thing you were suggesting ?

 

regards

simon

[Simon Edmondson]

Don't know if this is appropriate place but, following Gerry's suggestion I tried You Tube and found this,

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qISi5SpfylA...feature=related

 

( contains a fair bit of swearing though )

 

On the same page there was this link to some high frame rate slowmo shots. Some are quite beautiful in their visuals,

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rU7iYYpSrlo...feature=related

 

Now back to the lightening.

[TheSpleen]

http://www.hash.com/forums/index.php?showt...mp;hl=lightning