Confused by splines...

[MikeV]

Hello...

 

So, here I am with my first dilemma.. on my first attempt at a model that isn't from one of the manuals. go figure

 

Anyway... Here's a link to a screenshot I took for reference.

 

I've decided to model a series of objects I have around my house, start simple and get more complex as I progress and gain more skill and confidence. My first object is typical enough, a coffee cup.

 

I get as far as modeling the cup (a simple lathe, nothing big there), and the handle which was only moderately more challenging in that it required rotating, extruding and tweaking of CPs. Where I'm running into trouble is connecting the handle to the cup. My thinking was that I'd line up each end of my handle with the cup portion in such a way that my splines should (theoretically anyway) flow right into the cup without a problem. Not quite working out that way though :-/

 

Now, I've seen the tutorial on how to do this, by basically clearing a space on the cup, extending the CPs from the handle and then attaching them to the available spots on the cup so as to maintain the flow of the splines. It seemed to me that my go at it was essentially doing the same thing, just with a different cup model.

 

I'm sure it's something I'm doing wrong, but A:M seems to be completely random/arbitrary in what it deletes each time I try to clear out the space. It also seems arbitrary/random in how it handles the resulting patches. Sometimes when I'm deleting the splines, it deletes the area I want and an area next to it. Sometimes it only deletes the point, but not the spline. Sometimes it deletes half a ring of patches around the cup's circumference. Sometimes the resulting patches are smooth and look perfect. Sometimes they're creased. Sometimes there's a harsh line where a new patch meets the existing ones in the cup, as though the smoothing is interrupted.

 

Basically, I seem to be capable of getting every result except the one I actually want lol.

 

So, after going at it for about an hour, reloading a saved back-up of the model, I decided it was maybe time to admit defeat and come to the forums, tail between my legs, asking for some assistance...

 

It's probably some ridiculously simple thing I'm forgetting or failing to do that can be fixed in moments. But, then, figuring those things out is the point of learning, isn't it .

 

If you'd like a different or specific render or setup, let me know.

 

Thanks a bunch!

[robcat2075]

The simplest was to make a protrusion from a grid is to

 

a- choose a spline intersection

b- stitch a circle around it

c- delete the spline intersection inside the circle

d- extrude the circle

e- close the five-point patches

 

 

 

you handle will be a bit more complex as it has six CPs around it, i believe. Look for the "Utah Teapot" elsewhere on this forum for exampls of splicing more complex handles and spouts into things.

[MikeV]

The simplest was to make a protrusion from a grid is to

 

a- choose a spline intersection

b- stitch a circle around it

c- delete the spline intersection inside the circle

d- extrude the circle

e- close the five-point patches

 

 

 

you handle will be a bit more complex as it has six CPs around it, i believe. Look for the "Utah Teapot" elsewhere on this forum for exampls of splicing more complex handles and spouts into things.

 

Thanks for your response!

 

Hmm.. I gave that approach a try, and still no dice. I also re-lathed the cup to get more CVs to work with, to match the 3x3 CPs shown in that sample pic you posted.

 

I'm still getting harsh lines where one patch meets another, and the splines still seem to be wanting to act completely randomly. I'm really not sure what it is I'm doing wrong, since the results are so random every time I attempt it.

 

I think I'll start from scratch and re-model the whole thing, using more splines? I tried looking for a pre-made coffee cup in the library so I could see how that was done, but couldn't find anything like that. I found a genie lamp, but the handle's not attached.

 

I'll give it another go! Let's see if I can get it to work this time.

[mustangsRbtr]

Not sure if this will help... I'm still a newb myself but in creating my first model i had some similar results. I found that if I wasn't careful sometimes there were two or even three splines occupying the same space. Once I found and eliminated the additional splines and sometimes CPs I was able to reach my desired result. Note the weird rendering and the center of the asterisk.

[robcat2075]

When you say you gave it a go and it didn't work... I will say you didn't do what I did.

 

 

I'm still getting harsh lines where one patch meets another, and the splines still seem to be wanting to act completely randomly.

 

It's gobsmackingly easy to attach splines in the right way but if you don't know how to do it, it's impossible.

 

There's a lot to be said for doing the modeling tuts in (free, included with A:M) "The Art of Animation:Master". In order.

 

As trivial as they look they do teach everything you need to know to make shapes and connect them. The cool thing about A:M is that there isn't much to doing that, but if you don't know it... it will seem impossible.

 

I strongly suggest you do those before you frustrate yourself more. And there's a thread for each TAoA:M exercise where you can ask questions if you get stuck.

[MikeV]

When you say you gave it a go and it didn't work... I will say you didn't do what I did.

 

 

I'm still getting harsh lines where one patch meets another, and the splines still seem to be wanting to act completely randomly.

 

It's gobsmackingly easy to attach splines in the right way but if you don't know how to do it, it's impossible.

 

There's a lot to be said for doing the modeling tuts in (free, included with A:M) "The Art of Animation:Master". In order.

 

As trivial as they look they do teach everything you need to know to make shapes and connect them. The cool thing about A:M is that there isn't much to doing that, but if you don't know it... it will seem impossible.

 

I strongly suggest you do those before you frustrate yourself more. And there's a thread for each TAoA:M exercise where you can ask questions if you get stuck.

 

Err, are you getting on the defensive here, or am I reading your post wrong?

 

I'm not getting more frustrated and I'm not saying "I'm doing everything right". I'm just explaining what I'm experiencing when I'm attaching splines, etc. At the time I posted those remarks, yes, the splines seemed to be doing random things, not what I was expecting them to do. I thought maybe explaining what was happening might be a clue to whom ever read them of what was going on (assuming others made similar mistakes when they were first learning). Sometimes experience will teach you that when "x" is happening, it's because you're doing "y", and so you know exactly what the issue is and how to fix it. That's all I was going for giving that info.

 

Obviously I realize I was doing something wrong, and I even indicated as much in my posts. I can see what the results are supposed to look like, and I can see what others are able to do with the software. If I'm not getting desired results, it's because I'm doing something wrong.

 

Anyway, I initially intended to post this message to say that recreating the cup a second time yielded better results. I have more resolution in the cup and two more splines in the handle, so it more closely resembles the screenshot you posted earlier in the thread. Photobucket is under maintenance at the moment, but I'll upload a quick render I did as soon as its available again. It's not perfect, but it's a far cry better than my last attempt.

 

I have the book and I am going through those exercises. At the same time, I always find I learn better by taking what I learn in pre-made tutorials and applying it to my own projects, using my own subject matter. It's easy to follow instructions in a book. The test of whether you're absorbing and understanding it or not is whether you can apply it to something else. At least that's how it is for me. That's why I'm doing these other models and such of stuff around my apt. To test myself.

[robcat2075]

Which tuts have you done?

[MikeV]

Which tuts have you done?

 

For modeling, Flower Power and I'm working through the airplane one now.

 

For animation, the CanCan one, and that really quick one with Kai Kat.

 

I'm putting more emphasis on modeling for now.

 

I also have "Animation Master 2002: A Complete Guide", which has tutorials in it. I'm going through the ones that should be applicable to all versions, like he basic splinemanship ones.

 

I've also read through Jeff Cantin's page.

 

I also worked through the TAoAM book when I last used the program, though of course it's been a while. Some of it is still familiar though. I remember the giraffe one giving me a bit of a headache at some point. We'll see how I do this time around.

[robcat2075]

Finish the plane, then do the giraffe tut. The Giraffe introduces joining shapes. Then see what questions you still have.

 

Flower Power, FW, and giraffe cover a lot of essential splining techniques.

[MikeV]

Finish the plane, then do the giraffe tut. The Giraffe introduces joining shapes. Then see what questions you still have.

 

Flower Power, FW, and giraffe cover a lot of essential splining techniques.

 

Yeah, I'm gonna finish the plane, then move on to the giraffe again.

 

Here's something weird, though When I re-opened the file with the coffee cup I did, the handle was all corrupted. The patches on the inside of the handle were all twisted and distorted. I deleted that spline and re-created it, and it was fine. Opened the file again, and it's all corrupted again. Weird. First time that's ever happened to me in all my times using the program.

 

Edit: Okay. Nevermind. Apparently it was just a rendering glitch. I moved one of the handles a little bit and then used "undo" and it looks fine now.

 

How bizarre.

[Gerry]

Also, make sure the Mirror Mode button isn't on.

[robcat2075]

Here are some previous posts on connecting splines and not making creases...

 

post #4

 

 

post 4 and 7

[MikeV]

Here are some previous posts on connecting splines and not making creases...

 

post #4

 

 

post 4 and 7

 

 

Thanks for that...

 

I actually did get the cup to look okay. There's no creases or anything in it, it's just not quite as nice a transition as I'd like from the handle to the cup. I imagine that's something that will improve with time, repetition and experience.

 

I'm actually going to do another cup tonight just to double check myself and make sure I've "got it".

 

Then I'll finish that plane and then move on to Mr. Giraffe.

 

 

The distortion I mentioned in my last post wasn't an issue with the patches or the splines being "off". The splines themselves were fine. You could see them still flowing the way they're supposed to. The way the patches in one little spot inside the handle just looked really weird. Like someone took a piece of paper and crumpled it up, or like what will happen to polygons when your video card drivers are corrupt. They get all jumbled.

 

As soon as I use "undo", without even changing anything, everything pops back into place and it's fine. Almost like it just has to update the view or something. It's just something random happening when I first open that particular file.

[robcat2075]

We'll need to see it to see it.

 

If it's something that fixes itself after a screen redraw it might be a videocard driver problem that an update would fix.

 

But I'm just guessing because I haven't seen it.

[largento]

Hey Mike, these might be too basic for you, but I did a series of core concept spline tutorials (in comic book form) that can be found here.

[MikeV]

We'll need to see it to see it.

 

If it's something that fixes itself after a screen redraw it might be a videocard driver problem that an update would fix.

 

But I'm just guessing because I haven't seen it.

 

 

Well it's not something I was particularly concerned about as it's a one-off thing and not something I've ever experienced before.. But if you think it might be something of concern, then that's cool..

 

Here's a quick side-by-side I did... Mind you, the "before" is immediately after the program loading with that project loaded. All I do is press Ctrl-Z and it fixes itself.

 

http://tinyurl.com/7h3tr3b

 

And for the heck of it.. here's the rendering I did last night and couldn't upload... and still couldn't to photobucket, 'cause it still says they have maintenance going on. So... using imageshack instead...

 

Anyway!

 

http://tinyurl.com/6uj79ec

 

I still need to make the black areas black, which are just over the rim of the cup and inside of it. I'll do that later.

[MikeV]

Hey Mike, these might be too basic for you, but I did a series of core concept spline tutorials (in comic book form) that can be found here.

 

Hey thanks! I'll definitely check those out.

 

I guarantee they won't be too basic for me lol. It's always good to re-visit the "basics" from time to time anyway.

 

Edit: Just wanted to note quick that I did check those out and they're actually quite brilliant! It wouldn't occur to me to have tutorials in a comic book-like layout, but it works! I think having a "frozen" visual reference to show what you're doing at each step really helps convey the idea.

 

There's actually a few things in there that I didn't know about before, but I do now. So thanks!

[robcat2075]

. Mind you, the "before" is immediately after the program loading with that project loaded. All I do is press Ctrl-Z and it fixes itself.

 

So if I just loaded that it would do the same thing? Can you post that model? I'll try it.

[NancyGormezano]

And for the heck of it.. here's the rendering I did last night and couldn't upload... and still couldn't to photobucket, 'cause it still says they have maintenance going on.

 

You can post images, animations directly to this forum. No need to go to photobucket type places. The forum allows jpg, png types for stills, and .mov's for animations. Prj's, mdl's and zip's are also allowed.

 

I'm also noticing that you are using vers 2006 (Sasquatch) - which version is that 10.5? 11.1?.

 

Since we're almost on vers 17 now, there is no chance of any bugs being fixed for that old a version. If someone has your version installed (not me), then might be able to tell you what you are doing that causes the anomaly in that version if you upload the prj or mdl.

[MikeV]

. Mind you, the "before" is immediately after the program loading with that project loaded. All I do is press Ctrl-Z and it fixes itself.

 

So if I just loaded that it would do the same thing? Can you post that model? I'll try it.

 

Possibly, though I suppose the version of A:M used and some other factors might come into play.

 

I won't be home for a few more hours yet (hooray for errands straight after work), but I'll upload it when I am.

[itsjustme]

I'm also noticing that you are using vers 2006 (Sasquatch) - which version is that 10.5? 11.1?.

 

If it's the white-haired Sasquatch, it would be v13.

[NancyGormezano]

I'm also noticing that you are using vers 2006 (Sasquatch) - which version is that 10.5? 11.1?.

 

If it's the white-haired Sasquatch, it would be v13.

 

Ah yes. My 13s and 14c run with OZ characters CD...Not sure which 13 version runs with Sasquatch. Confoooosing. But I am now remembering that there was something funny about the versions/CD alliances back then.

[MikeV]

And for the heck of it.. here's the rendering I did last night and couldn't upload... and still couldn't to photobucket, 'cause it still says they have maintenance going on.

 

You can post images, animations directly to this forum. No need to go to photobucket type places. The forum allows jpg, png types for stills, and .mov's for animations. Prj's, mdl's and zip's are also allowed.

 

I'm also noticing that you are using vers 2006 (Sasquatch) - which version is that 10.5? 11.1?.

 

Since we're almost on vers 17 now, there is no chance of any bugs being fixed for that old a version. If someone has your version installed (not me), then might be able to tell you what you are doing that causes the anomaly in that version if you upload the prj or mdl.

 

Oh hey, great tip! Thanks. Will definitely be helpful in the future.

 

It is the disc with the White Sasquatch on it. On the cd artwork, the date is 2006. The Program's title bar says it's Animation Master 2005, but the "About" info says it's version 12.0w... Though I did download an update from the site, so that's probably not the version that came on the disc.

 

Also, here's the file with the wonky cup handle...

CoffeeMug.prj

[MikeV]

Also, wanted to add this..

 

I'm loving this community so far. I was a bit concerned coming back to A:M since, as I may have mentioned before, I haven't seen much "presence" of A:M out on the web, etc.

 

I've been pleasantly surprised. Y'all are quite responsive and seem to be eager to help out and give feedback.

 

After trying to be part of the "communities" for other applications and such, feeling fortunate if I got so much as an "I don't know" two weeks after asking something, this is quite a positive and refreshing experience so far.

 

So, thanks!

[NancyGormezano]

Also, here's the file with the wonky cup handle...

 

You are in luck - I opened your project with 16b and I get the wonky handle...Now to figure out why.

[NancyGormezano]

Also noticed when I hit ctrl z - the problem goes away.

 

Can you describe your steps as to how you created the handle? Did you use a plugin? something like sweeper? extruder, duplicator? or did you do it by hand? I notice the normals are funny on the 5 cp patches, but even fixing the normals does not fix the problem.

 

I have noticed sometimes that sweeper makes some funnies...It looks like some splines are getting confused.

[NancyGormezano]

I have also noticed that even after doing ctrlZ, and problem looks fixed, and then saving the model, when I bring it back in, the model is still wonky.

[MikeV]

I have also noticed that even after doing ctrlZ, and problem looks fixed, and then saving the model, when I bring it back in, the model is still wonky.

 

Yeah, same thing happens to me. It's fine for the rest of that session, and then it's back to wonkville when I reload.

 

As for how I made the handle, I basically drew out the first spline, a closed spline, and then extruded, rotated, translated and scaled it all 'til I got it to that shape.

 

As for the 5 point patches. Those have always given me trouble for some reason. I select the points and it seems almost like a coin-toss whether the 5-Point Patch button will activate or not. Something with them hasn't fully clicked with me yet, apparently.

 

Incidentally, I'm in A:M atm and am logged into the community. If it's easier to ask me in real-time about anything, could always do that.

[NancyGormezano]

And I have noticed that if I select all CPs and copy - then paste all cps into a new blank model that Hash comes back with a message saying there are duplicate cp #'s and it is repairing them. (and to send a report in to A:M reports if you can say how it might have happened)

 

This new copy/pasted model seems to be fixed when I bring it back in.

[MikeV]

And I have noticed that if I select all CPs and copy - then paste all cps into a new blank model that Hash comes back with a message saying there are duplicate cp #'s and it is repairing them. (and to send a report in to A:M reports if you can say how it might have happened)

 

This new copy/pasted model seems to be fixed when I bring it back in.

 

Hmm.. I just did the same thing and you're right. No wonky patches.

 

I didn't get any warning messages, though. It just pasted it into the window.

[NancyGormezano]

As for the 5 point patches. Those have always given me trouble for some reason. I select the points and it seems almost like a coin-toss whether the 5-Point Patch button will activate or not. Something with them hasn't fully clicked with me yet, apparently.

 

5 point patches are a coin toss for everyone, in terms of getting the green donut. And the normals have to be manually fixed sometimes.

 

BUT what works almost 100% of time, assuming the patches are legit 5 pointers, is to select the 5 cps, and if the green donut doesn't show, then hit "." (ie the period key, which selects all other cps), then "." again to get back to the original 5 cps. Essentially ".." or double period. Green donut should light up. If that doesn't work, then hide all but the 5 cps, and lasso the 5 cps - donut should show up. If it still doesn't, there is something funny about the splines not being legit, and you might have to break some splines and redo them.

 

To fix your Coffee cup model permanently: try selecting all the cp's, then copy them. Start new model, and paste into new model - ignore warning messages. Save model, close it, start new project, open this new model.

 

Do not know why you have funny duplicate cps to begin with.

[robcat2075]

If you have the white Yeti disk you can download v13 and use that. There are two installers for it, you need to make sure you get the one for your disk.

 

I think this May be it:

 

ftp://ftp.hash.com/pub/updates/windows/Am2006/

 

It is possible when doing breaking and re-attaching of CPs to end up with one CP that still has the data for two hanging around. A:M can fix that, the warning message about it is a recent addition.

[robcat2075]

And about 5 point patches... The few times that Nancy's strategy doesn't work are when there is odd splining. If you have 3 splines gong through a CP (something you should never do) that can stop the 5-pointer from working.

 

If you have a "hook" attached to the side of a potential 5-pointer that will also not work. The trick is to do the 5-pointer first, then do the hook.

 

It also helps to hide all but the near geometry with the 5-pointer so you are not accidentally selecting other CPs.

[MikeV]

If you have the white Yeti disk you can download v13 and use that. There are two installers for it, you need to make sure you get the one for your disk.

 

I think this May be it:

 

ftp://ftp.hash.com/pub/updates/windows/Am2006/

 

It is possible when doing breaking and re-attaching of CPs to end up with one CP that still has the data for two hanging around. A:M can fix that, the warning message about it is a recent addition.

 

Cool! Got it.

 

I had to copy a few DLL files from my V12 install over to the V13 folder, but it's working now.

 

Thanks!

[Roger]

If at all possible, try to create only 4 point patches. 3 point patches, while valid, will do nothing but cause creases in your model. 5 point patches are useful but can be tricky.