Toon Lines vs no Toon Lines

[nerrazzi]

Before I start my final rendering of this project I'm working on, I'd thought I'd see what some of you think about toon lines, with or without....

 

I've noticed that smaller resolutions yield not-so-great results while larger rez images or movies bring more precise results concerning the toon lines that is.

 

This file contains my character with toon lines. (line bias set to 700.)

with_lines.mov

[nerrazzi]

Here's no lines...

no_lines.mov

[nerrazzi]

Now here's a still of the same guy at a larger rez. I tend to lean more towards no lines but there's something about having the lines there that makes it look interesting....

[martin]

I like the lines. Toon lines are familiar - you don't have to "get used to them". A semi-flat rendered image without toon lines is distinctive because it is different.

 

I have an analogy: let's say you have a first impression 10 minute meeting with Steve Jobs. You can come dressed in blue jeans wearing a Timex watch so that Steve spends the first 5 minutes deciding whether you're a smart fashion rebel or you're just oblivious to what other people think, or you can wear the suit and Rolex and get Steve's attention for the full 10 minutes (I know, I know, I'd wear the jeans too - but it's an analogy, man).

[Rodney]

Wow... I'm not sure which one I like better.... I like them both!

 

I'm not sure there is really a wrong or right choice.

Rather it just breaks down to the style you intend to use and, of course, sticking with that style for the project.

 

If the plot/story has elements that might be better served by the style you'lll apply that might sway you one way or the other as well.

 

While not always the case... the lines are often associated with cartoon work while the non-lined images lean more toward a painterly effect.

 

Some would probably equate that with juvenile and mature. Can you guess which is associated with which? The juvenline effect is ofter used intentionally to good effect, instantly conveying a message to the audience that they can relax... because the situation isn't meant to be taken as real.

 

Hope that makes a little sense.

 

Great work... Makes me wonder what that guy is up to!

-Rodney

[dingo]

I like WITH toon lines.

 

The way you have done the toon lines are very nice and subtle, not gratuitous. I think they add a little flavor. Like adding a little salt to a meal.

 

In this case I say keep the lines, they look good to me.

[modernhorse]

I like the lines. To my eyes it makes him seem more solid. Does that makes sense?

 

What's it fer?

 

Doug

[Paul Forwood]

I agree. I like the subtle use of lines also. Lookin' mighty good!

[John Bigboote]

I was in the same quandry when I made my Jeep-TREO animation. What I ended up doing was renderring BOTH with and without and then half mixxing them in AfterEffects.

 

By rendering the character WITH background in toon mode I got the main plate, then I renderred JUST the character with an alpha in shaded mode. In After Effects I could then bring down the transparency on the shaded to just where I wanted it. Also because of the alpha I could use a filter called 'simple choker' under 'matte tools' to add a thicker outline around the character, which I call 'the powderpuff girls' effect. A thicker outline around the perimeter of the character REALLY pulls it off against the BG.

 

Just suggestions. Your animation looks really cool.

 

My animation can be seen here on A:M Films to see what I am talking about...

 

http://amfilms.hash.com/search/entry.php?entry=754

[jon]

i think my mind was made up before i saw the movies, but i didn't change my opinion afterwards: i prefer the lineless shot.

 

cartoons like samurai jack have helped people become more accustomed to toons without lines, so it's not completely alien.

 

they do help viewers take in the scene more quickly -- by highlighting objects -- but your shading helps that too.

 

the argument against would be added noise, which would be more of a factor in a busier, more crowded shot... which this isn't. ' ' )

 

with readability accounted for, it pretty much comes down to just style.

 

-jon

[nerrazzi]

thanks everyone for taking the time out to reply... this project is built around the story of Moses in the book of Exodus, a kid's video of sorts with splashes of grown-up humor. I'm using ants as a break away from the traditional "people" look and to make it a bit more interesting for the kids.

 

There's also the look of the background that has me concerned... my wife doesn't like it and I'm at the *50/50 rock either way* point. But it has to do with the water color feel of the buildings and distant mountains etc... She say's that it's like Picasso meets post modern contemorary.

 

I think that it's okay for distant objects and/or props and the coloring look to be good as decals on closer objects. What are your thoughts?

[Rodney]

I like it... and the background style seems to work well with the foreground characters. I'm liking the look without the lines more each time I see your posts.

 

As far as the background is concerned... I often apply just a little bit of blur to bacgrounds so that they don't compete with the characters/foreground as much.

 

This would most likely require compositing of the various layers though rather than rendering the background and the foreground at the same time. I assume that is what you are doing.

 

BTW- Your story looks like it is going to be great!

This one is gonna be good! I can tell already.

- Rodney

[nerrazzi]

Rodney, that was a great idea to add the DOF, I actually tried to do that in the first place in A:M but I can't ever get the desired results... didn't think about using PS. I really don't want to build everything in A:M, more interested in tell a story.

 

To my eyes it makes him seem more solid.

Yeah, to me it makes him stand out from the environment a bit as well, almost the best of both worlds in terms of 2 & 3D...

 

John Bigboote: I got a broken link when I went to play the clip but I remember checkin' that out some months back when A:M Films was relatively new. I saw the Jeep Treo at the Cobo 2004 North American International Auto Show in Detroit. It's an impressive little vehicle, lots of room inside.

[Flog]

Characters have lines, background no lines. I'm lovin your work.

 

How did you do the background and what kind materials are you using on the pillar?

 

I want to achieve a look like this!! WOW!!!

 

I aslo have to say one thing. The characters don't look exactly like ants, they are beautiful however!! They look more like Camel/Ant-Men. Very cool either way and look beautiful!!!

 

When do you suspect being finished?

[nerrazzi]

The characters don't look exactly like ants, They look more like Camel/Ant-Men.

 

Ha ha! yeah.... some of them are fairly ugly... Here's a shot of the character I'm going to use as Moses, "ALL" of the other characters are derived from this one character via the distortion mode... "everyone"

 

How did you do the background and what kind materials are you using on the pillar?

 

Nuttin' special.... just painting them in Photoshop.... I do a web search and find photos of real Egyptian hieroglyphs and try to make up some stuff using that information, just not counting on anyone being able to understand how to read it I guess...

thanks for the reply

[modernhorse]

Hey Nerazzi -

Awesome look you're getting here. There's alot of personality in your chars and I'm diggin the environment.

 

I'm trying for that desolate look and the same sort of minimal-detail-without- looking-empty-look that you're achieving but i'm not there yet. I'll be watching your progress for the inspiration and tips.

 

Keep on!

 

Doug

[nerrazzi]

I just finished the scaffolds and the statue of the Pharaoh; rendered "with" toon lines.

[MATrickz]

Your characters have so much personality and are modeled so well! I like the wrinkles under the eyes a lot!