Cookie Cutters

[Simon Edmondson]

I've used cookie cutters before and it was the alpha chaanel that did the cutting.

Is it possible to do it with a designated colour or does it rely on the alpha channel ?

simon

[robcat2075]

If there IS no alpha channel in the image you can set a "Key color" for the image. Expand it's listing inthe Images Folder to see that parameter.

 

Unlike alpha channel transparency, it clears out only the exact RGB color value you set as a key so it will typically give you a jaggy result.

[Simon Edmondson]

If there IS no alpha channel in the image you can set a "Key color" for the image. Expand it's listing inthe Images Folder to see that parameter.

 

Unlike alpha channel transparency, it clears out only the exact RGB color value you set as a key so it will typically give you a jaggy result.

Robert

Thank you for your help.

I'm only after it casting some shadows into a space so will test it before going through all 30 seconds of it.

regards

simon

[Simon Edmondson]

Update on the question. Working in V17 G under OSX.

I generated a very long stop frame sequence ( 802 frames ) and converted it to Png format.

The intention was to use them as cookie cutter decals and cast some shadows into a space.

The background colour is 0.0.0. and I set that as the key colour in the properties.

 

It works fine for the first frame of the sequence but, the second frame loses the key info and just comes out black ?

Is there a way to retain the key colour info throughout the sequence ?

 

or,if not, does anyone know of a way in Photoshop to get the transparecy ( alpha ? ) property to show up in png format or convert to a format that does have the alpha option ?

Thank you for listening

simon

[NancyGormezano]

best bet to generate images with an alpha channel is to output from A:M to tga format (output options/format/tga sequence) & and make sure you have alpha channel turned on (output options/buffers/alpha = on)

 

You can also turn on alpha buffer with png sequences - but I seem to remember there might be funnies with pngs/alphas and Photoshop - in dif versions of A:M and dif versions of PS

 

I wouldn't use key color to generate the cookie cutter shape. Alpha is the better way to go.

[Simon Edmondson]

best bet to generate images with an alpha channel is to output from A:M to tga format (output options/format/tga sequence) & and make sure you have alpha channel turned on (output options/buffers/alpha = on)

 

You can also turn on alpha buffer with png sequences - but I seem to remember there might be funnies with pngs/alphas and Photoshop - in dif versions of A:M and dif versions of PS

 

I wouldn't use key color to generate the cookie cutter shape. Alpha is the better way to go.

Nancy

Thank you very much for your very swift reply. Much appreciated.

What I am trying tto do is to take the Tango sequence you saw on FB and convert the frames into cookie cutters so I can use them to project shadows into a ballroom type space in AM. I outputted the sequence into png files thinking they would have transparency that way.

Mistake.

I have the original stop frame files in jpg and RAW format ( working in Drafonframe ) but there are other complications too big to consider in the time available so tried to use the .mov output as sequence instead .

regards

simon

[NancyGormezano]

bleck.

 

One can do it...but it will be tedious, and perhaps fiddly. Not sure how to do it with batch processing in PS

 

I suspect your green background of your jpgs, raw is not uniform (ie all one value). Might preprocess your resultant images from the jpgs - e.g., posterize the images with a filter (so you would end up with red, green, blue).

 

Then use some batch process to obtain an alpha channel (everything but the green) and then batch process by combining resultant alpha channel with the original unposterized images and then save those as tgas (with the alpha channels).

 

If you have access to Adobe after effects (or some other video editor?) - you could do it more easily.

 

Not sure if that could be done in A:M using composite ( I don't really think so)

 

I'm not up on using PS in a batch mode, nor Dragonframe for doing the above. Sorry.

Edited January 11, 2015 by NancyGormezano

[robcat2075]

If you can post a represenative frame i might be able to experiment with extracting a matte out of it.

[Simon Edmondson]

Nancy, Robert

 

Thank you both for your help. Much appreciated.

It appears to be a problem with QT. I used QT on my Mac mini for the original batch but tried it using QTpro on my Imac and it seems to give the desired alpha channel. If I can get it done in time, I will post the result later today.

regards

simon

[Simon Edmondson]

Managed to get it working with Alpha channel but, a crious glitch when it comes to render time.

I've got multiple renders going through but the sequence below shows the problem

 

This frame 259

 

 

frame 260

 

Frame 261

 

 

As you can see the sequence is suddenly broken by the cookie cutter sequence suddenly going back to the start before returning to where it should be.

There are other glitches appearing but proceeding with this to find out what the problem might be.

This is not a problem I've encountered before so, any advice gratefully received.

simon

[robcat2075]

That's a very convincing-looking result!

 

...the cookie cutter sequence suddenly going back to the start before returning to where it should be.

 

Are we sure that the numbered frames you have stored do not do that?

 

Does your original frame 260 have that wrong image in it, by any chance?

 

Can you edit out that glitch?

 

 

I'd have to know more to know more.

[robcat2075]

What are you doing the compositing in? A:M?

[Simon Edmondson]

Robert.

Thank you for your reply.

Theres no compositing as such. I rendered the mov file out as a png sequence using QT pro and that gave me the alpha channel info that was the glitch yesterday.

Then batch converted the sequence in Photoshop, taking out the background colour, leaving just the figures against the alpha. Saving it out again.

 

Then imported that into AM, and used it as a Cookie Cutter decal on a flat model in a chor. The sequence goes through and AM casts the shadows as it does so.

 

I checked the original CC sequence and the frames are as they should be. Would you like me to post them ?

regards

simon

 

These are the cookie cutter frames in sequence

[robcat2075]

I fyou scroll through the timeline manually does that frame 260 work right or not?

[NancyGormezano]

After you have the cookie cutter decal applied in A:M, are you rendering back out to an image sequence from A:M (either tga or png) or to a QT mov? I will state the obvious: Going back out to a sequence is better. And then making a QT mov - using QT pro is better.

 

After you have this all figured out - I would love to know more detail, for my own education:

1) more detail on how did you eventually create the alpha channel (ie eliminate the background)? what program? QTpro? PS?

2) how/what did you use PS for in the batch process - script? manually frame by frame? with video timeline? (I haven't used PS in video editing mode)

[Simon Edmondson]

Robert

 

I'll try that in a moment or so and get back to yo, its going through on another machine.

 

Nancy

To try to answer your questions.

 

After applying the CC decal to the model in the PWS, were it renders ok , it's imported to the chor as usual then, after some testing with the lights, rendered out as a sequence of tga files at first, now a series of jpg files.

 

Originally it was a 1080HD .mov saved out of the stop frame software ( Dragonframe ). I have all the individual frames too but they are huge in res and memory size and contain too much information for what I want at this point. Plus, I've never used RAW format before.

 

That 1080 file was converted into a png sequence using QT that comes as part of OSX.

That was the version giving trouble yesterday.

It saved as PNG but did not seem to retain the alpha channel while doing so (?)

 

That was a bit of a pain as there were 802 frames involved.

 

Just as I got onto bed, I remembered that, when it worked before, it had been done using QTpro.

This morning I saved out the sequence again using QTpro and it worked. Retaining the alpha values.

 

Then removed all the background colour in PS using an action droplet script and the magic wand ( CS5 ) which I learnt about last night, doing the first lot.

It didn't get all the bits that were 'trapped' inside closed spaces so, then went through individually to get those. The tolerance on the magic wand was set quite high, 70, but still missed a few specks which show up white in the render.

 

I didn't know you could use PS for video editing, all my editing is done in Final Cut pro which I'm still getting to know, five years after buying it ! Recently we did a workshop on FCP X, it was a bit of a mind boggler as its completely unlike the V7 I've got. I've seen them using PS to do drawn animation at College but have no idea how or where to look for it ?

 

The Dragonframe software saves out a high res and a help file. 32 seconds came out at 29gb !!!!! Can't access After Effects until go back to college so it will have to wait awhile before trying that.

regards

simon

[robcat2075]

I'm still not sure at what step you are creating an alpha channel or why IF... using a key color in a cookie cutter scenario worked. Did that work?

After applying the CC decal to the model in the PWS, were it renders ok After applying the CC decal to the model in the PWS, were it renders ok , it's imported to the chor as usual then, after some testing with the lights, rendered out as a sequence

 

 

 

That sounds like mission accomplished right there.

[Simon Edmondson]

Robert

the key colour only worked on the first frame of the sequence yesterday.

Not for the rest of the frames in that sequence, for those it stayed as 0.0.0.

 

It didn't seem to allow setting the key for individual frames but, as there were 800 and the value didn't change on any of them, thats when I went for the alpha.

 

 

In response to your earlier question, above is a quick render of frame 260 before render it out a a still moments later,

 

 

 

Puzzled by that, I did another quick render, with this result

 

I know very little on the technical side but, wondered if it might be a memory allocation problem ?

I copied all the files over onto this machine to try it on V15 and have a QT.mov going through now. It appears to have other difficulties...

regards

simon

 

 

[robcat2075]

If you send me the PRJ and the first four or so frames i can look at the key color problem, if it's still a problem.

[Simon Edmondson]

This was the result of 5 seconds worth, rendered in V15, using the same CC decals.

I'm going to see about using TGA with alpha and see if that's better.

simon

 

T3AM.mov

[robcat2075]

I see a lot of blue triangles that should not be there. Am I the only one who sees those?

 

Here's what I know...

 

-you shot your original stop-mo footage with a camera on a solid colored background.

-It's impossible to light the colored background so that the camera records every singel pixel of it as the exact same RGB value

-that is why a simple cookie-cutter transparency in A:M won't get the desired result. Cookie cutter can only knock out a single RGB value.

 

-To create a transparency from that colored background some sort of compositing software will be needed.

[Simon Edmondson]

Robert

Thank you once again for your help.

I set a render going over night using just one iteration rather than multiples of AM. Its still got three hours or so to run ( time to actually do the long postponed housework ) but, it seems to be going through OK.

I've just stepped through the rendered frames on the HD and, with a couple of curious anomalies they seem to be behaving as they should. I will post a version of it all later.

 

The anomalies are three frames were the green showed up in the spaces. . Went back to check the CC frames, thinking I must have missed those bits yesterday when working through, but no, they are absent in the original CC files (?).

 

I wondered if it might have been caused by memory management ? I know nothing of such things but, the CC files were quite large in total size, likewise in numbers ( 802 ). There were three iterations of AM running at the same time, all accessing the same file cache of CCfiles. Might that have cause some bottlenecks on the system ?

regards

simon

[Simon Edmondson]

I'm just copying the files on the other machine and will post the result later but, in the meantime. Noticed something while correcting the errors that might have some bearing on the problem ? It may be slightly difficult to explain but, here goes.

 

There was a problem with frame 221. On more detailed checking I spotted which one of the CC decals it was ( actually 222 ).

Corrected that and re rendered. Only to end up with the starting squares again.

 

Tried again and, when rendering a short sequence, only the first frame of that sequence, used the starting squares. The others were OK.

 

It appeared ( and this is guess work on my part ) that AM was referencing the start of the CC sequence as it started a render, even though it was rendering 10 seconds into the main sequence ?

 

I tried this at other points and got the same result each time.

The first frame referenced the start of the CC sequence, then AM caught up with itself for the next few.

 

I've saved the project file if anyone wants to have a look.

Couldn't save all the CC files as there were too many (800 + ) but, you could try your own ?

simon

[Simon Edmondson]

As threatened. Here is a 720 version of the 1080 original.

Hope this one has sound.

Simon

 

T3B 720.mov

[NancyGormezano]

yay!!!! clap clap clap!

[Shelton]

Simon,

 

Nicely done!!

[ovni1]

Well done!

[pixelplucker]

I believe only time png format might funky in some programs might be from the compression used. I have pretty much disbanded tga and use uncompressed png format for all of my textures. First off I can view them easier in just about any program where as tga does not preview or at least not at a system level.

 

Photoslop in general was always a little finicky with the less popular formats and used to corrupt jpg files if progressive was used instead of baseline standard. Though I don't use PS anymore, you should be able to record your actions to create an alpha easily...

Select color range (choose the background color ie green).

Select inverse

Save selection

Note: if the alpha is wrong simply remove the select inverse.

 

Run that in batch mode from the file menu and choose a separate destination folder.

 

I really miss DeBabalizer for that stuff, was by far the best and used Apple Scripts.

[Rodney]

Very nice!

 

Not that I know anything about the timing of dances...

The only seems off to me is the very end of the dance where it seems the audio has drifted off by a frame or two.

 

I am also wonder what (if I was animating) I might do to make the male and female character slightly more masculine and feminine to further differentiate the two.

By the color alone we might assume that the blue is the guy and the red is the lady but in watching again I'm not so sure.

How might the performances be exaggerated further to really up the ante in personality... that'd be my question.

At a guess I'd say the guy might have more stop motion/straight movement and the lady more fluid movement with arcs and curves?

This is not to say that both characters wouldn't have both but that one trait would be dominant in one while slightly suppressed in the other.

I suppose the question would be, "When looking at the reference footage what if anything stands out that would be ideal to incorporate to further enhance who these characters are?"

Without seeing the reference I can't say for sure.

 

I really have no place to crit here... but those are the thoughts that came to me... I really enjoyed the performance!

[Simon Edmondson]

I believe only time png format might funky in some programs might be from the compression used. I have pretty much disbanded tga and use uncompressed png format for all of my textures. First off I can view them easier in just about any program where as tga does not preview or at least not at a system level.

 

Photoslop in general was always a little finicky with the less popular formats and used to corrupt jpg files if progressive was used instead of baseline standard. Though I don't use PS anymore, you should be able to record your actions to create an alpha easily...

Select color range (choose the background color ie green).

Select inverse

Save selection

Note: if the alpha is wrong simply remove the select inverse.

 

Run that in batch mode from the file menu and choose a separate destination folder.

 

I really miss DeBabalizer for that stuff, was by far the best and used Apple Scripts.

Ken

Thank you very Much for your helpful tips.

regards

simon

[Simon Edmondson]

Nancy, Steve, OVNI, Rodney

Thank you for youor feedback and encouragement, much appreciated.

 

I come from a very literal minded family and tend to be so myself. The Tango was an attempt to do two things, break out of that mindset a little and do some stop frame work of which I have very limited experience. The Tangram was used because you can't be literal about it, its a process of abstraction and synthesis.

 

I had intended to take it into AM as a means of giving it some space ( it was shot against a flat green fabric ) and possibly some 3D characters, although time will preclude that in the end. Had tried the cookie cutter technique before and it seemed a better idea than to try and use the stop frame as a rotoscope to animate to. The animatic was animated in AM, but only the key poses, the inbetweens were done on the spot and proved mentally taxing !!! not least because there is no undo button and going back tover a mistake is not simple.

 

I also had in mind the work of Tiny Animatiions, http://vimeo.com/88687371, and theirs is an approach I would like to explore further down the line. When doing the stop frame I fretted about the lack of a 'flat' finish on the painted surface and tried with many coats of paint to get there. In the end I thought it actually worked better that way against the rendered background ?

 

The timing was really awkward to do because Tango has no drums so the regular cues are not available plus, its in 2/4 time, and I have no knowledge of that, which is why the animatic was done in AM. You can hear the music go through and set the keys were you think they might be...

regards

simon

 

Ps

Hope to finish the Boy and teddy Bear dance next.