MS Surface Pro 3

[pixelplucker]

My customers had problems launching the program when the internet was spotty. I have used the latest version of Illustrator CC and its very slow launching and overall I would consider it bloatware. The files generated in it cannot always be color separated into spot colors, there are often open paths, exported text converts some characters into strokes instead of fills. The list goes on and on.

 

Much of my work is for engraving or screen printing and many of the files I fix come from Illustrator.

 

Price for CC is cheap, many of my upgrades are far more than a years sub on it. I don't use it because of what it is, even if it was free I wouldn't have it on my system.

 

Years ago up to version 7 skipping 6 and 6.5 Illustrator was a nice program. I think Adobe strayed from the industry I cater to and lean towards the digital printing and web more so than older print technologies.

[largento]

Adobe CC can be installed on two computers at a time (I believe.) But you can unactivate it on one computer so that you can use it on a 3rd. The improvement over the CS is that it doesn't matter if the computer is Windows or Macintosh. With CS, you had to stick with one platform.

 

Files become useless after ending your subscription because they can't be opened correctly by previous versions. Obviously, this depends on the type of file and you can save out your documents as a previous version (assuming they don't have anything non-compatible.)

[robcat2075]

Compatibility is a problem. One reason I haven't gotten on board with any new After Effects is that they can't open my old AE files.

[largento]

Adobe seems to be treating the CC as a free for all. Whereas there were 18 month intervals in new versions, they are pushing things out as soon as they have them and they are entirely focused on the current apps.

 

In authoring the DVD for The Wobbling Dead, I used to be able to count on the compatibility between Premiere and Encore. Encore was dropped by Adobe and so Premiere CC no longer had that compatibility.

 

They haven't been able to focus on a coherent plan.

 

I'll be calling to cancel my subscription this week. I'm reaching the end of my "special" pricing deal. I say it that way because after claiming it was only being offered for a 3 month period to those who had purchased CS6, they are still offering it a year later and it can be used by anyone who owned CS3 and up.

[John Bigboote]

Compatibility is a problem. One reason I haven't gotten on board with any new After Effects is that they can't open my old AE files.

 

AE is backwards compatible, not forwards... meaning you can open a CS6 project in CC but not vice-versa. Once opened, CC will tell you that a 'Save-As' is necessary for the project, to get it into the CC realm. When you try to open a 'forward' AE project, like using CS4 to open a CS6 project- you will get an 'unknown file' prompt.

[robcat2075]

I can't open my AE 5 files in modern AE.

 

I tried a trial subscription and none of my old AE projects could be opened and i never found any way to translate them.

[pixelplucker]

Adobe was always famous for forcing upgrades even with the simplest of objects ie a rectangle made in 16 cannot be opened in earlier versions. This isn't due to a feature change because in the eps code the rectangle is identical but rather in the header of the file.

 

For me I have files dating back to the 90's that I may need to access so legacy is crucial to me. Adobe dominates the market more so because of their push in the educational market and heavy discounts. I see countless files daily created by some secretary at an office whose kid is going to college, probably a violation of the eula but the more people create garbage the busier I get.

 

As far as opening an earlier version of an AE file, wonder if that has something to do with a 32bit app and a 64 bit version? Wonder if there is some sort of major difference there?

 

I could never understand Adobe's work flow when they created the pdf format and you can only open one page at a time in Illustrator and cannot open a pdf in InDesign. As far as InDesign being a Quark killer it isn't and its a far cry from Pagemaker that I had use to help produce a couple of monstrous books for 3ds Max. Couldn't fathom doing an 800 page book in InDesign, I would bet it would crash on page 799 right after a save making the file unrecoverable.

 

Back to the tablet choices you guys should check out a little program called DrawPlus from Serif. I stumbled on Serif and was leery because of the low price of their programs. I needed a Gimp replacement then moved on to PagePlus for its incredible PDF editing capabilities then DrawPlus for its illustration features. For extremely complex editing I still use Canvas though their upgrade is hard to justify in the last 2 versions at $300 a pop for added bugs and unjustifiable additions.

[robcat2075]

As far as opening an earlier version of an AE file, wonder if that has something to do with a 32bit app and a 64 bit version? Wonder if there is some sort of major difference there?

 

They just decided to not support the old format. An explanatory error message comes up. I forget the text but it says the version was too old.

 

I recall on the boards someone said there is an intermediate version, maybe CS1 or 2, that could load the old and resave it and then the newly saved file would be readable by the current version. However, I don't have the intermediate version.

[jakerupert]

And how about not being able to work with your files anymore, if you run out of money?

 

It doesn't really require you to save your work to the cloud and no where else, does it?

 

Its not a matter of where to save, but of compatibility.

 

When you bought photoshop you can just stop updating, if you run out of money.

In the cloud if you stop your subscription you wont be able to work on your clients files anymore,

So if you are broke you are in much more serious trouble then with just stoping updating.

 

Older versions you might still have , wont open your files anymore.

 

I think this is the maindrawback addobe has to adress, filehandling after end of subscription.

[robcat2075]

Being broke is a problem in itself.

[Rodney]

I think this is the maindrawback addobe has to address, filehandling after end of subscription.

 

Given the obvious constraints I'm curious what a true solution might look like.

Most people would say, "Just let me keep my copy of the software active forever" but that has a direct disincentive to innovation.

At issue is the fact that we as consumers/users of a product expect innovation but 1) Don't know what we want 2) Don't want to pay for it.

I'll make no bones about it that the cost of subscribing to Adobe CC is too much for me but I also know a good deal when I see it and having access to all the Adobe products represents an incredible deal.

 

For those that might have recently blinked, the 2014 release of Adobe CC has just been released (as of yesterday I believe).

For those that are subscribed go get your updates!

 

Several concerns have been dealt with prior to and with these latest releases. Other concerns are being worked on behind the scenes.

Full solutions don't just appear out of nowhere but must be carefully planned and programmed into place.

 

One for instance is that multiple releases can be installed on the same computer system. This is a big deal in aiding the user in their effort to update older assets and it directly addresses the question of what folks can do when their older software is no longer compatible with the latest and greatest release.

 

Folks want everything but the cost of owning everything is too high.

This is a problem that must be dealt with and will be eventually.

 

The cost of subscribing to/purchasing all software is coming down... even while every major software label is moving to new forms of distribution... usually short subscription based... and *I anticipate* those costs will continue to decrease. But in a major twist of irony the lowering of cost depends upon adoption of the new methods of delivery which those with shorter term vision steadfastly resist.

 

Bottom line: We cannot expect software companies to give their products away for free (if they do that's at their discretion). With every increase in quality and innovation the software companies have been putting themselves closer to going out of business with every new release. Consumers are too easily satisfied with dated releases and increasingly had less and less incentive to upgrade. To stay in business... much less innovate... something had to change.

 

Being broke is a problem in itself. tongue.gif

 

And it's a problem that largely has to tackle on a case by case basis.

[Rodney]

I think this is the maindrawback addobe has to address, filehandling after end of subscription.

 

Given the obvious constraints I'm curious what a true solution might look like.

Most people would say, "Just let me keep my copy of the software active forever" but that has a direct disincentive to innovation.

At issue is the fact that we as consumers/users of a product expect innovation but 1) Don't know what we want 2) Don't want to pay for it.

I'll make no bones about it that the cost of subscribing to Adobe CC is too much for me but I also know a good deal when I see it and having access to all the Adobe products represents an incredible deal.

 

Aside: For those that might have recently blinked, the 2014 release of Adobe CC has just been released (as of yesterday I believe).

For those that are subscribed go get your updates!

 

Several concerns have been dealt with prior to and with these latest releases. Other concerns are being worked on behind the scenes.

Full solutions don't just appear out of nowhere but must be carefully planned and programmed into place.

 

One for instance is that multiple releases can now be installed on the same computer system. This is a big deal in aiding the user in their effort to update older assets and it directly addresses the question of what folks can do when their older software is no longer compatible with the latest and greatest release.

 

Fact: Folks want everything but the cost of owning everything is too high.

This is a problem that must be dealt with and will be eventually.

And here's the thing: The cost of subscribing to/purchasing all software is coming down... even while every major software label is moving to this new form of distribution... usually short subscription based... and those costs will continue to decrease. But in a major twist of irony the lowering of cost depends almost entirely upon adoption of the new methods of delivery which those with shorter term vision steadfastly resist.

 

Bottom line: We cannot expect software companies to give their products away for free (if they do that's at their discretion). With every increase in quality and innovation the software companies have been putting themselves closer to going out of business with every new release. Consumers are too easily satisfied with dated releases and increasingly had less and less incentive to upgrade. To stay in business... much less innovate... something had to change.

 

Being broke is a problem in itself. tongue.gif

 

And it's a problem that largely has to be tackled on a case by case basis.

[robcat2075]

Proprietary formats are a mixed bag of powers and limitations.

 

 

I'll note that the cost of staying up to staying on board a proprietary thing much less today than it used to be. 25 years ago if you wanted to do Photoshop stuff you either had to buy a Quantel Paintbox ($15,000?) or rent time with an operator on one, and you'd have to pay more every time you wanted to revisit that project.

 

None-the-less i still haven't jumped on board the Adobe Cloud train.

[Rodney]

Our topic has moved far away from that of MS Surface Pro 3 and we probably should move Adobe related topics to another location.

 

None-the-less i still haven't jumped on board the Adobe Cloud train. cool.gif

 

The importance of resistance cannot be overstated.

Resistance... even to good ideas... is important because it grounds fleeting and ethereal projections into reality.

If everyone immediately subscribed to AdobeCC that would certainly be strange.

The issue then is one of whose reality rules the day. This personal reality then is key.

If someone has no use for the Adobe software it wouldn't make a lot of sense to purchase that software.

If on the other hand one can well take advantage of what Adobe is offering then an argument can be made for early adoption rather than later.

If one simply cannot fathom any potential benefit then it would be more a matter of education.

 

I have been tempted for a long time to start up a Adobe Users Group forum to incrementally demonstrate some of the varied benefits to using Adobe products with A:M but I've resisted that for a number of reasons. My ultimate goal in such a thing would be to demonstrate how best to use A:M in conjunction with Adobe products but also demonstrate the most direct methods to accomplish the same/similar thing in A:M. The big difference being to outline alternatives for those that for reasons of their own have chosen a different reality (This includes Adobe!). That and to smooth out the path for A:M Users to extend their productiveness (through Adobe should they so choose) to the greatest extent possible.

 

I have stated for the record that I believe A:M Users will benefit by subscribing to AdobeCC (the ins and outs of which could be debated at length).

But the burden of proof for the initial statement of benefit is on me.

So I have two basic options 1) demonstrate the benefits 2) keep my opinion to myself and let the chips fall where they may.

 

I'll state this for the record as well:

- Adobe product user experience is far inferior to that of A:M. At times it is quite painful.

- Navigating the interface of the various Adobe products is no where near as intuitive as with A:M.

- I'm not thrilled with the current focus on mobile technology but acknowledge that's where the majority of tech is heading. There are however some very useful benefits (ex: Adobe Edge Animate)

 

Adobe is definitely moving in the right direction and they will never arrive at a final destination. That's the nature of software/innovation.

Having said all that, I believe the best means of getting where Adobe needs to be is along the path of their current trajectory.

[robcat2075]

Another thing that dissuaded me from upgrading was that the modern After Effects that I trial-versioned wasn't one bit faster at processing footage than the one I've been using from 1999.

[Rodney]

Another thing that dissuaded me from upgrading was that the modern After Effects that I trial-versioned wasn't one bit faster at processing footage than the one I've been using from 1999. mad.gif

 

While relevant I tend to discount processing benchmarks/comparisons from one release of a product to another on the basis that they aren't often fairly weighted comparisons; the older measurements generally taken from one set of data versus the newer with another set of data. As you are technically minded I've no doubt you reduced or at least accounted for the variation but that is where many a comparison fails.

 

An excellent, but technically minor example of smarter ways of processing is that which is found in Adobe Generator*.

That's the underlying approach that allows the naming of PSD layers in Photoshop to automatically generate other imagery based on the naming of those layers alone. (i.e. If you want a jpeg, png and a 25x25 png thumbnail just name your layer appropriately and it'll create them each time you save. Want the same thing for a group of layers... name a set of folders appropriately and drop the layers inside the appropriate folder as needed to get instant conversion and formatting upon saving.**)

 

The processing/rendering of images then becomes... as it should be... a secondary and perhaps even trivial consideration.

 

*Not that I anticipate such a thing but as Adobe Generator is open source it could be leveraged by A:M to process/format/convert images through Photoshop without even opening Photoshop.

**Pay attention PSCC users... that second part with the folders is a tip I haven't seen anywhere else!

[robcat2075]

By "processing footage" I mean the real time scrubbing and compositing of my After Effects compositions that has to happen for me to be able to judge my work without having to go to a final render to Quicktime for every preview.

 

Imagine if you could only advance animation in A:M one frame every 5 seconds or one every 20 seconds or if you could only watch it in 1/64th the normal size. It's a poor situation for working with multiple video elements.

[Rodney]

Imagine if you could only advance animation in A:M one frame every 5 seconds or one every 20 seconds or if you could only watch it in 1/64th the normal size.

 

I can imagine it. My mouse occasionally has issues that slow things down to a crawl and I'm about to jettison it.

Without knowing more about your specific project or setup I can't even begin to assess the specifics of your situation.

I do know that After Effects requires considerable free/dedicated memory and I don't recommend using it without 16GB of RAM.

Last year I was trying to operate AE on less than 8GB (probably not even 4GB given what Win 8 requires to begin with and my tendency to keep applications open) and ouch... that was painful.

With 12GB or more AE has been pleasantly responsive although as with all graphics intensive operations the more RAM the better.

[pixelplucker]

Adobe has rewritten the eula where the user no longer pays a fee for the rights to use a program but rather pays a fee to have the rights to use the program for a fixed period of time. As far as native Illustrator files being supposedly locked out the .ai file format as it was at one time no longer exists but it is rather a pdf with the .ai extension. Toss an ai onto word pad or note pad and read the header. Changing the extension to pdf will open it fine in Acrobat. PSD format has hardly changed other than the use of clipping paths and better spot color (multi channel) support and better consolidation dcs it is very compatible with many other programs. InDesign is still a pile of steaming dog @#$ but I really don't know many shops that use it for any serious production. Majority of print houses will use pdf instead since fonts are embedded, screen angles and frequencies can be embedded, photos and graphics are embeded and overprint and trapping is retained. Digitally printing pdf files is more streamlined since many of the printers support direct pdf interpolation.

 

On the other hand with version compatibility going forward with older files Quark ran into that with early versions being too old to be read into newer versions but was the actual cause was the files themselves were very different and the issue was Mac and PC hopping and version differences. That might be the case with AE. Apple did make huge changes in their OS, chipsets used and 32 to 64 bit changes over a fairly short period of time and there was all sorts of havoc with the lack of legacy.

 

Is it me or did this thread stray way off course? Thought it was about the Surface3.

[robcat2075]

An AE file is really a just a bunch of lists and parameters.

 

Reading that shouldn't be a problem unless they decide to make it a problem. 32-bit or 64-bit OS shouldn't be an issue.

 

The data is in separate files and those could be 30 year old formats like JPG that still read as expected.

[pixelplucker]

Sounds like a forced upgrade then.

 

I finally got a chance to try out one of the Sony Flips that are now no longer in production, very nice machine but it seems there is no win tab driver in the system so it wouldn't support pressure. I saw no controls in the control panel for pressure settings. Technically it could but without drivers and since it's no longer manufactured I was hesitant in dumping any $$$ out for it.

As a laptop and touch screen it was pretty smooth, the dedicated video card really makes a difference on laptops for performance.

 

Checked out the new Surface 3, if no one told me it was a 3 and I didn't bring a tape measure I wouldn't notice the difference other than the new price tag that goes with it.

[robcat2075]

Checked out the new Surface 3, if no one told me it was a 3 and I didn't bring a tape measure I wouldn't notice the difference other than the new price tag that goes with it.

 

The screen is 12 instead of 10 but it's a more rectangular format so maybe it's not all that much bigger?

 

 

Are you old enough to remember cigarette commercials? I remember one that promised its cigarettes were "a silly millimeter longer". That ran for a long time so it must have been successful.

[pixelplucker]

Splitting hairs in technology, I vaguely remember the cig commercials, old enough to remember the beer ads when they drank on screen too.

 

What would be good is a portable Cintiq that could fit on top of a standard laptop. Most laptops come in pretty specific sizes, one that could clip on top of say a 14" or 15" model would be cool.

[robcat2075]

Wacom makes a self-contained cintiq PC tablet now.

 

It's probably more capable than a MS Surface3 but about twice as heavy also.

[pixelplucker]

Now thats pretty cool. The 256mb one seems like the best of the bunch.

[robcat2075]

Here's a review specifically comparing the Wacom Companion and the MS Surface Pro 3

 

Microsoft’s Surface Pro 3 vs. Wacom’s Cintiq Companion

 

 

And here's a site dedicated to Surface Pro usage...

 

http://surfaceproartist.com/

[robcat2075]

 

 

And here's a site dedicated to Surface Pro usage...

 

http://surfaceproartist.com/

 

 

I'll note that the surfaceproartist site also has a number of reviews of cintiq-like monitors from other manufacturers which may be interesting if you are curious about lower-cost alternatives.

[pixelplucker]

I tried the Surface Pro 2 and 3 out and found the cursor lags behind so quick sketch lines will be a problem. Nice to see the comparison between the 2 but I realized neither are any good for any serious production work and on their own are pretty limited.

 

They aren't all that portable by the time you add a mouse, keyboard, number pad if the keyboard doesn't have one, space mouse that I use often, and external hard drive since most built in drives are just too small. So sitting at the couch and loading up a coffee table with all the accessories and stooping over to work isn't all that great.

 

They have yet to solve the lack of a mouse wheel on the stylus, suppose it is possible to put a slider switch along with the 2 buttons but none have yet to do that.

 

For myself I have a lot of difficulty getting touchscreens to work with my fingertips because they are so callused and end up using my knuckles to get the screen to react.

 

Bottom line is unless your traveling and working the Cintiq is probably still the best option. What would be good is a wireless version of the Cintiq that uses your pc remotely. The stock stand is less than adequate and the arm is a slight improvement.

[robcat2075]

I tried the Surface Pro 2 and 3 out and found the cursor lags behind so quick sketch lines will be a problem.

 

Is it anymore than a Cintiq? My Cintiq already has pretty noticeable lag.

 

 

 

For myself I have a lot of difficulty getting touchscreens to work with my fingertips because they are so callused and end up using my knuckles to get the screen to react.

That's interesting. I'm getting calluses on my left fingers from cello playing.

 

[pixelplucker]

If your Cintiq has lag then maybe the pc is a little slow for it? Cintiq is just a monitor/tablet and it's performance is as good as the system it runs on. The Sony's flip had a slight lag but nothing like the Surface, the flip also had a dedicated video card and not the usual built in Intel which I am sure was a big factor.

Can't say on the Companion since I haven't seen one first hand. I don't even know what kind of video card is in the Companion, haven't been able to see it on their specs. For all we know it might be the same.

 

On another note I thought this was pretty cool.. Tiny projector that is also a touch screen via stylus.

http://news.yahoo.com/tiny-android-projector-puts-80-inch-touchscreen-wall-161213199.html;_ylt=AwrBJSD8ItpT6ngAApTQtDMD

[robcat2075]

If your Cintiq has lag then maybe the pc is a little slow for it?

 

 

It's faster than anything that existed when this Cintiq was built 11 years ago. There's no way it's below the requirements for normal operation of this thing.

 

 

[pixelplucker]

Hmm shouldn't lag though, it is just a monitor. Does the mouse cursor lag at all?

[robcat2075]

Hmm shouldn't lag though, it is just a monitor. Does the mouse cursor lag at all?

 

the monitor is just a monitor, but there's a lot of software that has to happen to read the position of the pen at the monitor and turn that around into something that is displayed on the monitor.

 

If I sweep my pen across the width of the monitor over one second the cursor will be about an inch behind.

 

I'm sure there must be some lag in the mouse also because that is something that needs to be computed too, but I don't perceive any lag as I move it around.

[pixelplucker]

Pretty much all tablets use the Wintab driver and all perform pretty much the same on a machine, ie a bamboo would be similar to the higher end tablets. Overall just about any average machine should have little or no drag to them. I am thinking there must be just a lot of background applications and/or processes eating up resources making it slower. Also how clean is the machine inside? CPU heatsink clean or dusty? Intel chips will throttle down when they heat up. Every few months I blast out approx 1.7 cats worth of fur out of my machine, maybe 1.4 I might be exaggerating.

[robcat2075]

It's a properly operating PC with plenty of CPU time to spare. It is not over-taxed. Even if it were throttled down it would still be a faster PC than what this Cintiq was designed for in 2003.

The lag I see is similar to what I see in other demonstrations of tablets, like this one at about 3:10

http://youtu.be/jP_Aul3wf1M

He's accepts it it, but I don't like it. The paint is always playing catch-up to the pen.

It ought to be possible to get the pen position read and re-displayed within one screen refresh interval but it's obviously quite a bit slower than that.

[pixelplucker]

Hmm I don't see that at all on my system, pen and cursor are dead on all the time no matter how fast. I have the 21 ux. Not sure why the latest one drags like he showed. Could it be the cpu's? Not enough to drive them along with the programs?

I never had that as an issue even when I had just the one processor and 1/3 the memory.

 

The MS Surface really lags, at least the ones I have tried so far. I find that annoying and distracting.

[robcat2075]

I don't know if the MS Surface qualifies as a form-factor success yet, but Apple is making an iPad in that size next...

 

The Giant iPad That Apple Is Working On Could Be A Dream Device

 

I think it's getting too big for something that only does what an iPad does?

[jakerupert]

Great!

I have been waiting for that for a long time.

 

Nevertheless without a proper stylus and a Pc emulator it wont beat the surfacepro 3

For us artists.

Lets wait, what wacom comes up with next...

[pixelplucker]

Is the giant ipad Apples next iphone too? Thats exactly what we need, now people can not only talk in the left lane on the highway but they can doodle too! What fantastic idea!

[pixelplucker]

Has anyone checked out the new Asus Vivotab Note 8?

I know it's a little small but it runs Win8 and has a Wacom stylus. Wondering if it's any good.

Amazon sells it for $229 for the 64gb version.