Teddy Bear

[NancyGormezano]

One weirdness I notice with your model (but may not have anything to do with your problem) is that you have multiple groups named Untitled.

 

I am not able to create any groups with the same name - I am always given a warning. This has been standard forever. Seems very peculiar.

 

More curiousity: Are you using the "patch group mode tool" or (shift +P) to select to patches that you want the patch orientation to change? and are you waiting for refreshing the screen after you right click and choose rotate patch?

 

Are the normals all correct on your model?

 

And yes 5 point patches are worrisome when using "patch images"

 

Aside from wanting to understand rotating patch images - I have to wonder why you are frustrating yourself by even worring about this, given that the image for fur you are using works in any direction. If it is because of using it for bump, then it is important as to the normals being correct for the patch (I believe), not necessarily for the orientation of the image on the patch (shouldn't matter much).

[NancyGormezano]

I just tried to see if I could make "rotate patch" fail - and I could not in 18a-32. I saved the new model with some patches rotated, it kept the rotations (on the patches that I rotated). I restarted A:M, model was fine

 

It is either something funny with your model, your version that you are using (17g mac) or your technique.

 

Post the model that is funny.

[robcat2075]

Simon, if could you post or send me that model and I'll take a look at it.

[Simon Edmondson]

Simon, if could you post or send me that model and I'll take a look at it.

 

 

Nancy, Robert

Thank you for your replies and help.

Here is the Project with the model and the pointer decal embedded.

 

My subscription is close to expiry so I will buy V18 in the next few days.

regards

Simon

 

Teddy_Bear2.prj

[Simon Edmondson]

One weirdness I notice with your model (but may not have anything to do with your problem) is that you have multiple groups named Untitled.

 

I am not able to create any groups with the same name - I am always given a warning. This has been standard forever. Seems very peculiar.

 

More curiousity: Are you using the "patch group mode tool" or (shift +P) to select to patches that you want the patch orientation to change? and are you waiting for refreshing the screen after you right click and choose rotate patch?

 

Are the normals all correct on your model?

 

And yes 5 point patches are worrisome when using "patch images"

 

Aside from wanting to understand rotating patch images - I have to wonder why you are frustrating yourself by even worring about this, given that the image for fur you are using works in any direction. If it is because of using it for bump, then it is important as to the normals being correct for the patch (I believe), not necessarily for the orientation of the image on the patch (shouldn't matter much).

 

Nancy

Pardon me, I missed your first reply when posting the model/project.

The untitled groups occur whenever I select a group in the window but don't name it though save the project, I usually delete them or rename them according to what is required. Not always successful, but try to keep track of the various parts and put them in a a sensible' sequence at the end for when editing is required.

 

Initially I was selecting the CP and shift clicking the others to get the patch, then Robert suggested the patch select tool, and I used that, shift clicking every so often for multiples. The screen did refresh each time.

 

I think some of it might be perhaps to do with the fur maps being used but, the reason for the attempts was because there were some peculiar results on the thighs of the bear in particular ( noticeable in the walk sequences ). They were 'fun' but not the intended result. It was when Mark told me about the image rotation that it started to become apparent where some of the problems lay.

 

I didn't think to check the normals but will do so in a bit.

 

Some of the maps were made in Pshop to make them tileable but, when used across the whole figure, unintended patterning occured and have spent some time trying to eliminate as much of that as I could. The scale of the image within the map area also has a marfked effect on the image made in terms of the 'noise' it generates at render time. I did start thinking of scaling the map for separate areas but haven't done that yet.

 

One thing that eventually became apparent was that, if the same map was used for colour and displacemt then the lines of the splines were becoming visible in the render. Very pronounced in a Toon render but also marked in non toon. Two separate maps were used in this example. There is a line on the right knee when it bends but not down the whole form as on other examples this afternoon.

 

regards

simonBert_06__Walk.mov

[NancyGormezano]

Something is funny with your model. Those untitled groups are very suspicious.

 

When I click on an untitled group in the pws - I do not get any cps selected, and then when I click on the group above it (NB) - the untitled group goes away (as if A:M is repairing something). I can do this 3 times to get rid of the untitled groups. I can do it in ver 17g and 18a.

 

I cannot figure out how you are getting these multiple named untitled groups in your model?

 

Even with leaving them in your model I am able to rotate images and have them stay rotated.

 

Try deleting those untitled groups from PWS by just deleting the groups and then try rotating your images.

 

And you do know that you can have multiple A:M's on the same license? Just copy the master0.lic file from your 17g directory (where master.exe lives) to the same directory as the one 18a master.exe file gets installed.

 

Also image files do not get embedded in projects - you would have to make a zip file and drag the project file and image file into the zip file.

[pixelplucker]

I had 16 until I wen't to the sub and got 18, never had 17. 18 is really nice, much speedier and far more stable. I think you will really like it.

 

Nancy might be onto something. I deleted the untitled groups, seems they weren't needed and noticed that you have included sets of patches in various groups, wondering if things are just getting confusing. Not sure how others work but I tend to make groups if I need to texture them so I can drag and drop a material to them. So everything brown would be one group of patches, black another and so on.

I don't name groups of patches necessarily just to try to be orderly. This might be redundant this when you decal a group of patches you can call those patches back up as a selection.

 

I learned way way back when I had shared cp's and had trouble with shaders showing up, had to muddle my way through a job. Robert helped me out on that and been good to go since.

 

One of the big reasons I only name by texture group is if by chance I need to export the model out as an obj I can then have that file readable in other programs ie 3d Coat or UU3d.

 

The only flipped patch I could see was on the foot, you can see them easy enough because they tend to be black towards the corners.

 

Suggestion, delete all the groups you don't need and just go by material. Be much simpler and should work fine.

Not sure why you would need to rotate any patches, you can do that as you decal because you can rotate the view as you stamp. Very intuitive and easy to control.

[robcat2075]

Here are some notes:

 

clip3367SimonsPatches.mov

[NancyGormezano]

Here is what I QUICKLY did - I decaled the body,head with cylindrical mapping (repeat =3x1), from front view. And decaled the arms with planar mapping (1 x 5 repeat, seamless =ON). Decaled arms from top view. displacement = 200%. NO bump.

 

Got rid of all patch images (ie, set values to 0%)

 

rendered flat shaded = ON (in options for shortcut to model in chor), camera settings toon =OFF

 

and flat shaded with camera settings default toon =ON

 

EDIT added project file - you will have to link to the thatched rug image that was used for the texture.

 

If you use patch images - try it without the bump.

 

BTW, Patch images are more likely to show the borders of patches no matter how you rotate. Even if the edges are seamless, and directionless - the interior of the image used will indicate the patch. Think of a black dot on white ground. Wherever there is a patch, there will be one black dot. Your brain will recognize the pattern. And obviously, the dot will look larger on larger patches, versus smaller ones. Just the nature of patch images.

decaledteddy.prj

Edited March 10, 2014 by NancyGormezano

[Simon Edmondson]

Ken, Robert, Nancy

Thank you very much indeed for you help. Very much appreciated.

Pardon my delayed response. I promised to test the stop frame setup and hadn't anticipated such a swift response from the forum. I should have known better.

I will test my understanding of your suggestions tomorrow after an early start. I'm looking forward to it.

 

The reason for all the groups in the PWS is to keep track of them while I learn what I need to list. At this point, too many is better than the opposite as have been caught out a few times were I needed to select something and had to go back in and faff around trying to select some cps in close proximity. At the other end of that scale is the bones in the 2008 rig installed in the bear. There are so many its difficult to keep track of. Thats not a complaint, I like the rig, I just find it a bit overwhelming at installation.

 

Thanks to everyone for their help.

regards

simon

[pixelplucker]

Would be nice if we had symetrical selection using the mirror mode. I could see that as being a handy way of selecting parts on a charcter and hiding the rest of the geometry for assigning cp's to bones. IE select left middle finger tip, hit the hide button jump to bones mode and assign left and right left middle finger tips.

 

Wonder if that is possible to do?

 

I still only name what I need to as I work and find it more confusing as the list gets longer. For me I jump from project to project so less I have to look back over the easier it is for me to remember what I was doing or where I left off.

[Simon Edmondson]

Would be nice if we had symetrical selection using the mirror mode. I could see that as being a handy way of selecting parts on a charcter and hiding the rest of the geometry for assigning cp's to bones. IE select left middle finger tip, hit the hide button jump to bones mode and assign left and right left middle finger tips.

 

Wonder if that is possible to do?

 

I still only name what I need to as I work and find it more confusing as the list gets longer. For me I jump from project to project so less I have to look back over the easier it is for me to remember what I was doing or where I left off.

 

 

Ken

I'm not organised enough yet but, if your character is symmetrical in build could you just use and 'mirror selection', make a temporary group if needed, and apply from there ?

 

I'll try to post a render of what the bear currently looks like later.

regards

simon

 

 

Ken

Just noticed.

Happy Birthday.

Thank you for your help.

[Simon Edmondson]

Don't think this will be the final texture used but, still trying to find a suitable one that can be scaled to the right point.

Thanks to everybody for their help.

regards

simon

 

Bert_07_Walk.mov

[Simon Edmondson]

Quick bash at Bert on Unicycle.

The fur is a bit noisy in this version and its onle a quick setup of the cycle action

Any feedback welcome.

simon

 

Bert_07Cycle.mov

[robcat2075]

That is getting to be plausible looking fur.

 

You can eliminate the pop by copying a keyframe to make sure the end and the beginning match.

[Simon Edmondson]

That is getting to be plausible looking fur.

 

You can eliminate the pop by copying a keyframe to make sure the end and the beginning match.

 

 

Robert

Thank you for your reply and help. There are still a couple of bits I missed with the maps and will have to redo. I didn't notice them until I made the base colour bright red, will change that today. Tried this for a bit of fun before going to bed last night.

regards

simon

 

Bert_Cycle.mov

[Rodney]

That fur turned out quite nice.

 

A slight movement/tilting of the unicycle to the left or right into and out of the turn would really perfect that but it would also cause a ripple effect of movement to be needed in the upper torso and arms as the bear compensates to maintain balance..

 

Great progress Simon.

[Simon Edmondson]

That fur turned out quite nice.

 

A slight movement/tilting of the unicycle to the left or right into and out of the turn would really perfect that but it would also cause a ripple effect of movement to be needed in the upper torso and arms as the bear compensates to maintain balance..

 

Great progress Simon.

 

 

Rodney.

Thank you for your reply and encouragement. I'm working on a variation for sports day. Will try to post for the weekend if I can get it done.

regards

simon

[markw]

Hi Simon

Sorry since my last post I've not able to follow your hair adventures to well I'm afraid. Having major internet problems at the moment (I'm posting this from a cafe with WiFi!)

 

But that fur looks really good now, I like it

What method did you finally go with to get that look? Decal or patch images?

Will look in again when I can.

[Simon Edmondson]

Hi Simon

Sorry since my last post I've not able to follow your hair adventures to well I'm afraid. Having major internet problems at the moment (I'm posting this from a cafe with WiFi!)

 

But that fur looks really good now, I like it

What method did you finally go with to get that look? Decal or patch images?

Will look in again when I can.

 

Mark

Thank you for your reply and again for your help earlier. Sorry to hear of your access troubles. The only open wifi around here is the Macdonalds down the road where the Born Again Bikers meet at the weekend.My guess is that Granada is slightly different ?

 

I used the decals approach in the end with a mixture of cylindrical and planar applications. There are two maps, one I modified and got off a fabric sample on Ebay for the colour and the other than Nancy kindly supplied, of a thatched doormat, for the displacement and bump. It still need some work as I missed some patchs in the stamps. One curiosity, found out about the missing patches when I changed the background colour to bright red, difficult to miss then ! However small pin pricks of colour were showing through were the maps were solid?

Hope you get your access problems sorted.

regards

simon

[NancyGormezano]

One curiosity, found out about the missing patches when I changed the background colour to bright red, difficult to miss then ! However small pin pricks of colour were showing through were the maps were solid?

 

Yes, those small bits of color showing through are a result of the surface distortion that can occur in using a displacement map. I (and you too, I'm guessing) have found that one way to disguise this is to use a group surface color that resembles the overall tone of the image used for the color decal. E.g, in your case: brownish.

[NancyGormezano]

BTW, I noticed a bunch of untitled groups with David Higgins (retopologized lady model located here) - and he uses mac version as well.

 

I am going to guess this is a "feature/bug?" of mac A:M (do not know what version he was using).

 

I cannot recreate this with A:M PC versions

[Simon Edmondson]

BTW, I noticed a bunch of untitled groups with David Higgins (retopologized lady model located here) - and he uses mac version as well.

 

I am going to guess this is a "feature/bug?" of mac A:M (do not know what version he was using).

 

I cannot recreate this with A:M PC versions

 

 

Nancy

Its been a few years since I worked with AM on a PC ( the days of Vista ) so memory maybe faulty but, I recollect that it used to happen then too. I'll see if I can reproduce it later in the new week as I'm a bit caught up in getting actions to work as expected at the moment.

regards

simon

[Simon Edmondson]

Still working on the cp weighting but, this was this afternoons test of the setup ( hope to refine the movement later )

simon

 

VGA from 1080 conversionBert_M_Walk.mov

[NancyGormezano]

Hoo Hooooo! FUN!

[Simon Edmondson]

Hoo Hooooo! FUN!

 

 

Nancy.

Thank you. I haven't edited the curves yet or put some twist in the torso and will try to do that tomorrow. This was just this afternoon before going to a drawing class. Its really just a test to see if the weighting is working but I am hoping to use it as practice for an idea later using Charlie character the bear is the companion to.

 

This was the reference video if interested ?

regards

simonHow_to_moon_walk_like_Michael_Jackson.mov

 

Ps

The model at the class was a dancer and I asked about moon walking, so she proceeded to demonstrate but explained that a young boy she taught was much better at it than she...

[Wildsided]

I use the windows version and untitled groups appear when I highlight Cp's and then change a property. If I don't rename then it just becomes 'untitled' and then 'untitled2' and so on if I don't rename the group. it's done that since I started using A:M which was whatever version the Sasquatch was.

[Simon Edmondson]

This mornings update.

Twist added to torso and head, extra emphasis on arm moves.

It wasn't originally animated to the sound, although it will be later, but has been adjusted to it today, ( if that makes sense ? ) .

Any critical feedback welcome.

simon

 

Bert_Ska.mov

[Simon Edmondson]

Trying to sort out the Bear unicycling I've encountered some problems I don't know how to fix and would like to ask if anyone else knows the cause and especially the fix ?

 

This is a movie showing the problem.

C5_Ground.mov

It is taken from the sports Day movie from the other week. I had thought it fixed but no.

The ground plane is not animated at all. It does have a map applied to it in the PWS but nothing is changed in the chor.

As you can see render artefacts appear. seemingly at random ?

 

This is the consolidated project file.

Slalom_Grounds.zip

 

This was done in V17 but the same problem is occurring in V18 which I upgraded to last week.

The curious thing is that, in the original, the set and animation are the same but, there are five separate cameras, and the render artefacts are different in each of them when rendered???

Any help greatly appreciated.

Regards

simon

[NancyGormezano]

This is a movie showing the problem.

C5_Ground.mov

It is taken from the sports Day movie from the other week. I had thought it fixed but no.

The ground plane is not animated at all. It does have a map applied to it in the PWS but nothing is changed in the chor.

As you can see render artefacts appear. seemingly at random ?

 

As I just learned, consolidate does NOT work in re linking files, so I had a hard time loading your chor -as A:M could not easily find models, images, materials, etc, so I just canceled most. (What a pain for both trying to provide a project as well as using the provided project - I found it is best to relink manually, if you want receipients to be able to test your situation - ugh)

 

However if I were to guess, I would say that displacement does NOT work very well on BIG flat ground plane type models - even with a grid of patches, and perhaps especially if the camera is moving so fast and erratically, and at certain angles. Try just a bump and color map (no displacement)? I think the randomness, scintillation is due to using displacement.

 

Also I noticed you were animating the path splines over time - was that on purpose? It's allowed, but curious to see if you really meant to do that?

[NancyGormezano]

OK - almost sure it's the displacement on the ground plane

 

I ran a quick test - added a color map 100%, moved displacement to bottom in decal container, and even if I set it to 0%, there was an "artefact". However when I changed the type to color = 0%, "artefact" went away.

 

I think it's a matter of camera angle, focal length?, displacement, flat ground combo? (tested in 16b/32)

[Simon Edmondson]

...

 

However if I were to guess, I would say that displacement does NOT work very well on BIG flat ground plane type models - even with a grid of patches, and perhaps especially if the camera is moving so fast and erratically, and at certain angles. Try just a bump and color map (no displacement)? I think the randomness, scintillation is due to using displacement.

 

Also I noticed you were animating the path splines over time - was that on purpose? It's allowed, but curious to see if you really meant to do that?

 

Nancy

Thank you very much for your helpful reply. Gosh you're quick !

I will try to change it straight away.

The path was animated because, when originally laid out, the wheel of the unicycle came off the ground at places, or into it at others. I'd wondered afterwards if 'snap to surface' might have prevented that but, I'm still getting used to that with the Charlie model (who is going to dance with the Bear next) currently underway during the week.

regards

simon

 

This was the ground model

Snow_Ground.mdl

 

and this the map you kindly supplied the other week.

[robcat2075]

Hi Simon,

 

Several random notes...

 

- you can't really use Bump and Displacement on the same surface because Displacement uses "bump" shading" for its light and dark effects. If you have Displacement somewhere, you're already using "Bump" and adding the same map as a Bump map gets no additional effect.

 

-25% displacement is typically invisible in most circumstances. i usually end up with numbers > 100

 

- the Thatch bitmap probably wont' be an effective Displacement maker as it is not really an elevation map where bright = high and dark =low. Also it is stretched very large so that its pixels are huge as seen by the camera. Setting the repeat higher helps a little.

 

 

different views have different amounts of the dark squares, I'm not sure what causes that yet.

 

- If you REALLY don't want to embed models in your PRJ, then it is SO much easier when you are working on a project to make a folder for it and copy the models or any other asset you need to that dedicated folder and load from there instead of loading from different directories from all over your hard drive.

 

"Consolidate" works but it's still not easy for the end user. It is way easier to have a PRJ that either already has everything embedded OR is only looking in one simple place for things it needs. This is also easier for you later when you return to a project and may have any of many circumstances that may make paths to files not the same as they were before.

[Simon Edmondson]

Hi Simon,

 

Several random notes...

 

- you can't really use Bump and Displacement on the same surface because Displacement uses "bump" shading" for its light and dark effects. If you have Displacement somewhere, you're already using "Bump" and adding the same map as a Bump map gets no additional effect.

 

-25% displacement is typically invisible in most circumstances. i usually end up with numbers > 100

 

- the Thatch bitmap probably wont' be an effective Displacement maker as it is not really an elevation map where bright = high and dark =low. Also it is stretched very large so that its pixels are huge as seen by the camera. Setting the repeat higher helps a little.

 

 

different views have different amounts of the dark squares, I'm not sure what causes that yet.

 

- If you REALLY don't want to embed models in your PRJ, then it is SO much easier when you are working on a project to make a folder for it and copy the models or any other asset you need to that dedicated folder and load from there instead of loading from different directories from all over your hard drive.

 

"Consolidate" works but it's still not easy for the end user. It is way easier to have a PRJ that either already has everything embedded OR is only looking in one simple place for things it needs. This is also easier for you later when you return to a project and may have any of many circumstances that may make paths to files not the same as they were before.

 

Robert

Thank you once again for your help. Much appreciated. I am always rather taken aback by the speed at which help is offered here on the forum.

The bear model does use Displacement at 100% but it seemed a bit OTT for the snow so dialled it back to 25 as you noticed. Following Nancy's suggestion I have a test going through now with no displacement, only bump, and will post it later. So far it seems to be working as required.

 

Following a discussion on project organisation a few months back I have started to organise project files in one folder but, while getting used to it, they tend to be located within others. You are right , it is a pain when transferring files between one machine and another.I'll hit the right structure and organisation eventually !

regards

simon

[NancyGormezano]

- you can't really use Bump and Displacement on the same surface because Displacement uses "bump" shading" for its light and dark effects. If you have Displacement somewhere, you're already using "Bump" and adding the same map as a Bump map gets no additional effect.

 

Well you can use both bump & displacement on same surface if you are looking for different results. And using the same image, for both, is probably a wash.

 

Here is example of the using different images for bump & displacement and neither are gray scale, but have enough contrast to have an effect. For the stuff that I do, I rarely use a gray scale image for either bump or displacement.

 

BUT if I were wanting to be accurate or more precise for creating hills and valleys then I would use a gray scale image where white is raised, black is indented, and grey (127, 127, 127) represents no change.

[robcat2075]

that's interesting Nancy. I know I've tried some combination of Displacement and Bump and it didn't work. I'll give it another go.

[Simon Edmondson]

As threatened yesterday,

Here is the revised version with the displacement map removed.

C5_Ground.mov

 

This is a very compressed version as the original was 40mb in size. However, no strange black marks or odd brown patches so, a big thank you to Nancy for suggesting the solution yesterday. The only downside is that I've had to go back and re render all the relevant camera sequences but thats a very small price to pay. Splene Gene got it right when he talked about 'constant rendering' !

regards

simon

[Simon Edmondson]

Update on the problem.

Set the renders going again and, although the black patches did not appear on the ground plane they have started to appear on the slop model. I will try to check it tomorrow to see what might be happening.

simon

[Simon Edmondson]

The Teddy Bears companion takes his first walk... in his pajama's. I like the ( accidental ) fabric effect on the torso but will have to adjust the crotch area.

Just a test.

He's supposed to be about 10.

Any feedback welcome.

simon

 

Charlie_Walk.mov