Can I shut a patch off?

[Rob_T]

I'm trying to model something with a lot of square shapes in it and I'm having problems with patches forming where I don't want patches (places I need to see through). I realize in the short term I can hide the CP's that make those patches but that doesn't resolve the issue that I simply don't want those patches there.

 

They are completely valid patches but I need them gone. I've tried transparancy of the group of CP's that make the patches but that doesn't even work in render lock (I assume it is done in final render) as the patches still remain despite being changed to transparent.

 

Also, I'd rather not add additional CP's as this causes a domino effect requiring me to add bunches of other CP's and splines to keep the patches I do want.

 

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

 

[John Bigboote]

I dunnoh... you make the geometry- but you want it gone...? You can add a CP to one of the splines... and if you want the adjoining patch to be visible you could specify it as a 5-pointer...not too bad of a dominoe effect. Making the patches 100% transparent should make them NOT render...it's weird that they still are...

[robcat2075]

A four sided shape wont' render if you make it from one spline loop.

[Rob_T]

John, the patches would "kinda" disappear when I did the render lock. They were still there they just looked really screwy. I assumed they would disappear altogether if I actually rendered to file. Either way though that doesn't resolve my issue since I need them gone so I can better see what I'm doing as I continue to model in shaded and wireframe view.

 

That said, the five point patch thing I thought of right after I posted this and it does work but the patches look like crap even when rendering to file so I'm probably going to have to come up with something else in the end but for now it works.

 

Robcat, unfortunately most of the model is almost done, bad planning on my part I guess, live and learn. Going back and redoing all those splines would be a real chore. I can see I'm going to have to get creative.

 

Would porcelin help with the 5 pointers? I'm making walls and the 5 point patches are bulging slighlty when rendered.

[MJL]

Is this what you're talking about? I leave for work in 15 minutes, will check in later

[frosteternal]

Slap a cookie-cut map on the surface if you want a hole that you didn't model. Depending on your graphics card, it may display as cut out in real-time too.

 

If you simply want patches "turned off" so you can model another part better, use groups, and "hide"

I do that all the time.

 

If you want a permanent solution, delete the points that make the patches valid, or simply and an extra CP here and there with the "y" key (insert)

 

Other solution, if you just need part "out of the way", model the parts you need to see separately, and move them into place & attach later.

 

If you post an example of a screen shot showing what you have/want we could help you more effectively.

 

(Last note, Render-lock is not always an effective preview tool, as it uses the old renderer. Just do a bounded preview with what render settings you intend to use for production.)

[robcat2075]

Rob, show us an example.

[Rob_T]

Rob, show us an example.

 

I can't really show an example because I fixed them all already with 5 points.

 

I will post a picture of what I'm making though to give you all a better idea.

 

It's an apartment. And the middle rring of splines throughout the living room, kitchen and bathroom are there to support the modeling of chair rails it in the case of the bathroom, whatever you would call the divider that seperated the top half of the bathroom from the bottom half.

 

Because these CP's exist in the walls they are connecting with each other and horizontally dissecting the rooms. It's hard to see because the one room without a floor or ceiling doesn't have the problem I'm talking about. And, as I said, I've already eliminated them by adding cp's and usinf 5 points. But as you can see from the render the 5 points don't exactly make the walls look nice and smooth.

 

Anyway, I hope this helps explain what I'm struggling with. Thanks for the help.

[robcat2075]

You're doing something seriously spline-wrong if that shape is a problem. Can't see from here, though.

 

I can't really show an example because I fixed them all already with 5 points.

 

tip: don't save over your old work. save a new file with a version number. Because the day is going to come when you're going to wish you hadn't done something you just did and you're going to want to have it back the way it was.

[Rob_T]

You're doing something seriously spline-wrong if that shape is a problem. Can't see from here, though.

 

I can't really show an example because I fixed them all already with 5 points.

 

tip: don't save over your old work. save a new file with a version number. Because the day is going to come when you're going to wish you hadn't done something you just did and you're going to want to have it back the way it was.

 

Oh right. Yeah I do that. But that's not what I meant. I can show you, in fact here are two renders from an older version before I fixed it. I can't "show" you because as soon as I render it the patches hide the problem.

 

This, I think is the best I can do.

 

In image one the entire model is visible. In image two I've hidden the ceiling CP's so the render is just from the "Chair Rail" CP's down to the floor rail. As you can see though, the two bedrooms, the kitchen and the bathroom all still seem to have a floor. They in fact have 2 floors and two ceilings in this instance because every time I made a bloody square to outline the walls of the room the program made a horizontal patch to go along with it that sliced the room in halves or quarters or whatever fractions you want to use.

 

As I said, the extra CP's I inserted resolved the issue and got rid of the extra patches. As I also said, the creation of the 5 points, the only way to make it work, make the walls bulge a bit and look kind of crappy. You can see that in the last image I uploaded.

 

So I'm still looking for a better solution if anyone has one. I'll attach the older project fle too so you can look at the model itself it you want.

 

I'm sure this is an easy problem to fix I'm probably just not explaining it right. <_>

Apartment3.prj

[largento]

Rob, don't add points to the outer or inner walls, but to splines running between them. That will stop them from forming patches and take care of the artifacts you get from that.

 

[EDIT] Or are you wanting to have windows? Like Robert said, a continuous spline forms a hole.

[robcat2075]

is the closest room what you are trying to do?

 

[Rob_T]

From what I can tell from the picture yes the closest room is what I'm trying to do (with the exception of the ceiling being gone.... the room needs a ceiling and I think therein lies the problem... I could have done what you did but that CP at the top of the wall = no ceiling).

 

How did you get it to render showing the CP's and splines? I haven't been able to figure out how to render that way (or I would have for my examples with this question).

 

I can see that if I connected the two CP's at the tops of the walls I would have my ceilings back, but the effort it would take, to string in all those CP's and splines into the existing model... in all of the 4 rooms with the problem... that was the domino effect I was referring to and trying to avoid.

 

If that's the only solution then I'll probably leave the 5 pointers for now. I think the doors, entranceways and windows I'm going to add in may allow me to delete those 5 pointers later on.

 

I was essentially lookiing for a quick fix but if there isn't one then there isn't and I'll make due with what I have at the moment.

 

Thanks a lot for all the help though.

[DJBREIT]

 

apartment.mdl

 

Try and make all elements as separate simple pieces . Like I did with chair rail. I made a box then stretched it along the room. This allows you to put them in the different group easier. If you don’t, you will be pissing and moaning if you hit the select all button. Also it makes changes allot easier.

 

Always make the ceiling and floor separate pieces. This is so you can hide them during modeling and choreograph as needed.

 

Keep the rooms separate so when you are done with the model you can separate the rooms into there own stages if needed.

[robcat2075]

From what I can tell from the picture yes the closest room is what I'm trying to do (with the exception of the ceiling being gone.... the room needs a ceiling and I think therein lies the problem... I could have done what you did but that CP at the top of the wall = no ceiling).

 

How did you get it to render showing the CP's and splines? I haven't been able to figure out how to render that way (or I would have for my examples with this question).

 

I just screen captured. but you can render shaded mode with Show CPs ON.

 

I can see that if I connected the two CP's at the tops of the walls I would have my ceilings back,

yup

 

 

 

but the effort it would take, to string in all those CP's and splines into the existing model... in all of the 4 rooms with the problem...

 

the effort... the... effort... four... rooms... can't... go... on...

 

it's not that hard.

 

newsplinet0005H264_150.mov

[Rob_T]

From what I can tell from the picture yes the closest room is what I'm trying to do (with the exception of the ceiling being gone.... the room needs a ceiling and I think therein lies the problem... I could have done what you did but that CP at the top of the wall = no ceiling).

 

How did you get it to render showing the CP's and splines? I haven't been able to figure out how to render that way (or I would have for my examples with this question).

 

I just screen captured. but you can render shaded mode with Show CPs ON.

 

I can see that if I connected the two CP's at the tops of the walls I would have my ceilings back,

yup

 

 

 

but the effort it would take, to string in all those CP's and splines into the existing model... in all of the 4 rooms with the problem...

 

the effort... the... effort... four... rooms... can't... go... on...

 

it's not that hard.

 

newsplinet0005H264_150.mov

 

Your sarcasm is almost as amazing as your workflow. Almost.

 

Wow. Ok, see, you have to keep in mind that you basically just showed me an entirely different way of modeling there. That stuff with the "Y" key? I had no idea. I've hit the Y key about a jillion times when I meant to hit the "T" key and that never happened. Is it Shift Y or just select the spline and Y? Ah who cares I'll figure it out.

 

In my defense, for me to do that would take hours. Because the way I would do it, the way I learned from Tao, for every CP I wanted to put in there I would make three, insert the one and then delete the other two and then have to move the one remaining into position. I've done it a few times. It takes $@!&$ forever.

 

Doing things the way you just showed me is an obvious fix for the issue considering the short amount of time it takes. With my workflow I'd be at it for hours and hours.

 

Thanks a ton man. I might just have to take another look at that wishlist if you keep this up.

 

 

MJL, Largento, John and Frost, Thanks a ton for the suggestions (although, Frost, the next time someone tells me to slap something that I don't understand in the least I may have to start slapping myself with insanity... have you been talking to Homeslice because the two of you are slap happy.... in essance.... no idea what a cookie cutter map is).

 

DJBREIT: it took me an obscene amount of time to make this rather pathetic model and you seem to have recreated it in very short order. Thanks for shining a light on my personal inadaquacies. LOL. I've downloaded your version and I'm going to take a good long look at it. Thanks man.

[jakerupert]

When I want to cut a simple hole, I just use a spline which creates a fivepointer on one side and a hook on the other.

[largento]

Rob_T, I think you're being too literal with your set construction.

 

Don't think of it as an apartment. Think of it as a movie set of an apartment.

 

You're going to want to be able to take out walls to set up your camera shots. Build them in a modular fashion. Then construct your set from the individual models in a choreography. That will allow you to turn on and off elements as they are needed.

 

Here's a quick set that I did for my Christmas animation last year:

 

 

All of the walls are individual models (and indeed, started as 1 model that I copied and pasted into new model windows and shaped into the length I needed) and the two walls around the stairs are the same model, just placed into the cho twice. Simple 4-point patches make the floor and ceiling and they can be resized and translated in the cho to cover what I need.

 

 

Again, this was a quick one, but the theory is the same.

[Rob_T]

Jake I tried using 5 points and it left the walls kind of lumpy in the render. I think Robcat's solution is better.

 

Largento, I agree completely with what you are saying but this situation is a little different as the opening shot has an anthropomorphic robot computer swinging, Tarzaan like, from bra's, ducktaped to the ceiling, all acrossed the living room of the apartment. Which means for that one shot at least, I need the entire room to be visible as well as the connecting rooms (Kitchen just has an entryway no door) without any gaps in floor ceiling or walls.

 

Whenever I have married two models together I have had trouble with bleed through where they meet. I have no doubt someone with your experience can marry stuff together without that problem, my skills just aren't there yet.

 

I mean look at what Robcat just showed me? Such a simple part of the program and I had no idea because it wasn't in any of my lessons. You guys and experience are my only teachers now and as that's a slow way to learn I'll be doing a lot of things the hard way as I go along. I've pretty much accepted that.

 

EDIT: I loved that video by the way. I saw it awhile back when I first found WBP on the Half Pixel forum.

 

I was surprised you used someone else's IP though (Dean Martin). I mean, I completely understand the reason you wanted Flemm to sound like Dean Martin, I mean, who wouldn't? But there are plenty of Chiristmas Carols that are in the public domain because of thier age and expiration of copyrights and whatnot. Why not get a few friends who can play instruments together and a voice actor who can sing and do your own version? Then you could include it on your DVD and not have to worry about getting sued.

 

I can only assume that the reason you guys don't have a bunch of other shorts is because you are going for quality of quantity but I am eagerly awaiting the next entry.

[largento]

Largento, I agree completely with what you are saying but this situation is a little different as the opening shot has an anthropomorphic robot computer swinging, Tarzaan like, from bra's, ducktaped to the ceiling, all acrossed the living room of the apartment. Which means for that one shot at least, I need the entire room to be visible as well as the connecting rooms (Kitchen just has an entryway no door) without any gaps in floor ceiling or walls.

 

You can build every part of the apartment, but when assembled in the choreography you will have the option to turn models on or off (as well as set parts to not be visible in the choreography, but still render.) Not only does this give you the ability to see through things, but elements that the camera won't see can be turned off, which will speed up your render times.

 

Whenever I have married two models together I have had trouble with bleed through where they meet. I have no doubt someone with your experience can marry stuff together without that problem, my skills just aren't there yet.

 

It takes no skill. You simply put them together so that they overlap... no gaps.

 

EDIT: I loved that video by the way. I saw it awhile back when I first found WBP on the Half Pixel forum.

 

Thanks!

 

I was surprised you used someone else's IP though (Dean Martin). I mean, I completely understand the reason you wanted Flemm to sound like Dean Martin, I mean, who wouldn't? But there are plenty of Chiristmas Carols that are in the public domain because of thier age and expiration of copyrights and whatnot. Why not get a few friends who can play instruments together and a voice actor who can sing and do your own version? Then you could include it on your DVD and not have to worry about getting sued.

 

It served my purpose to do so and I had no concern of being sued. This animation was done as my Christmas card. I created DVDs which I mailed to friends and family. It was not conceived of as a commercial venture. At worst, I might have received a cease and desist letter, but that was highly unlikely.

 

As to online distribution, I purposely put it on YouTube, because they pay licensing fees to the different record labels, which keeps them safe from most of the music used in the videos that are posted there.

 

As it was, I barely finished it on time. :-)

 

I can only assume that the reason you guys don't have a bunch of other shorts is because you are going for quality of quantity but I am eagerly awaiting the next entry.

 

I suppose that's a part of it, but it's not going to be a concern now. :-)

[robcat2075]

one more thing, you can do the maneuver I showed you in about 10 seconds with Steffen's CutPlane Plugin

 

of the four options only "Add Splinering" should be checked.

[Rob_T]

Largento,

 

You can build every part of the apartment, but when assembled in the choreography you will have the option to turn models on or off (as well as set parts to not be visible in the choreography, but still render.) Not only does this give you the ability to see through things, but elements that the camera won't see can be turned off, which will speed up your render times.

 

Wow. You can set stuff so it can't be seen but will still render? And you can set a model on or off? I assume the on or off part is the eye image in the shortcut? But how do you do the can't see it but it still renders thing?

 

It takes no skill. You simply put them together so that they overlap... no gaps.

 

So you say and for you I'm sure it's true but in my case every time I have tried to push two models of different colors right up to each other I have gotten some bleed through from one model onto the other. Even when the models are the same color the lines seperating the two models look a little "funky" when they are pressed right up against each other. Don't believe me? Look at that flythrough of the Remedy short set I posted recently. You will see buildings right next to each other, that are the same color and you can tell where they seperate because the lines between the two models just don't look right.

 

I don't know enough to even guess why.

 

You Tube is a smart choice, but I know you said you were planning on making a whole WBP movie and it's a shame you can't offer that Christmas card as an extra or something. Selling it in any way would probably get you that cease and desist you mentioned (when I said sued that's pretty much what I meant, I know almost nobody goes beyond the cease and desist these days, they don't really need to).

 

For me, I've been involved in music, voice acting and audio editing for so long that to me, that would be the easy part of a project like that. Still, as something for friends and family it's a pretty great effort.

 

I suppose that's a part of it, but it's not going to be a concern now. :-)

Ooooh! Cryptic and foreboding. I'm not even going to ask, I'll wait to find out with the rest of the masses. Whatever it is I hope it goes well. Just FYI the biggest webcomics centered convention in the country is coming up at the end of the month in Hartford, CT.

 

Thanks Robcat. I'm starting to understand the large amount of Stefan worship that goes on around here. He's an honest to goodness A:M MacGuyver or something isn't he.

[largento]

Wow. You can set stuff so it can't be seen but will still render? And you can set a model on or off? I assume the on or off part is the eye image in the shortcut? But how do you do the can't see it but it still renders thing?

 

Yes, next to the name of the shortcut to the model in the PWS, there are a series of small icons. One of them is a wireframe cube. Click on that and a pop-up menu will appear. Select the top icon (the red circle with the slash through it) and the model will not be visible... but it will still render.

 

 

Look in the properties for the shortcut to the model and you'll find an "Active" property. Change it from ON to OFF and the model will disappear and will not render.

 

 

It takes no skill. You simply put them together so that they overlap... no gaps.

 

So you say and for you I'm sure it's true but in my case every time I have tried to push two models of different colors right up to each other I have gotten some bleed through from one model onto the other. Even when the models are the same color the lines seperating the two models look a little "funky" when they are pressed right up against each other. Don't believe me? Look at that flythrough of the Remedy short set I posted recently. You will see buildings right next to each other, that are the same color and you can tell where they seperate because the lines between the two models just don't look right.

 

I don't know enough to even guess why.

 

Here's what I'm talking about. Here's a top view. See how I've overlapped the two instances of the models?

 

 

Now, here's how they look rendered from the camera:

 

 

I suppose that's a part of it, but it's not going to be a concern now. :-)

Ooooh! Cryptic and foreboding. I'm not even going to ask, I'll wait to find out with the rest of the masses. Whatever it is I hope it goes well. Just FYI the biggest webcomics centered convention in the country is coming up at the end of the month in Hartford, CT.

 

You've read my post on the Wannabe Pirates thread, so it shouldn't be cryptic anymore. :-)

[frosteternal]

...Frost, the next time someone tells me to slap something that I don't understand in the least I may have to start slapping myself with insanity... have you been talking to Homeslice because the two of you are slap happy.... in essance.... no idea what a cookie cutter map is). ...

 

Cookie-cutter map is just a decal type. Ttransparent parts of the image are rendered transparent. Looking back, now that I see what you were modeling, it wasn't the best solution.

 

Glad you seem to have worked this out!