Rigging Options

[largento]

Hi folks, looking for some opinions on rigging...

 

I'm reaching the point where I'm needing to rig my character. It's a little daunting. Okay, it's a LOT daunting. :-)

 

I don't really know what all my options are, but from what I've been able to see there's: the 2001 rig, the Squetch rig or create a custom one.

 

I'm on a Mac and running Tiger, so The Setup Machine isn't an option for me.

 

I've been messing with the 2001 rig (after doing the boneless thom tute) and it goes okay until I start getting to parts that deviate too much from the default rig or go past the tutorial (like finger bones). Not understanding how all of the various hidden bones work, I'm not sure why they are where they are and where they should be exactly.

 

So, I thought I'd pause take a break and seek out some advice on how I should proceed.

 

The Squetch rig looks complicated, but there seems to be a really good video tutorial to follow and I've got Barry Zundel's rigging DVD which walks you through building a custom rig.

 

Part of me thinks maybe going the custom route would be good for the learning experience of finding out what the bones do and why they are placed where they are, but there seem to be a lot of bells and whistles in the Squetch rig that would be beyond my being able to create on my own.

 

I'm resolved that it will be something that will come easier with the experience of having done it several times, but I'm hoping you kind folks could point out some of the pitfalls and point me to a better path so that the trip isn't quite so bumpy.

[goodguy20k]

I've done 2001 rigs for a few models now. I tried to do a Squetchy on PB, but wasn't ready for the installation methods (yet). It's really NOT that hard to install a 2001 rig, and fingers are all there. Just find them in the bone hierarchy and unhide them. :-)

 

I've created a few "custom rigs", but mostly in an effort to learn how bones work. Fiddling around with them helps me know how to work with the 2001/Squetchy rigs, and if need be, modify them.

 

Biggest tip: Save multiple copies. One before installation, a few during, and one after.

[Tunames]

Make several copies and rig one each way. knowing how every thing works might make them easier to use in the future.

[itsjustme]

The easiest way to go would be the 2001 rig for a first time, Mark...since you have Barry's tutorial, that would give you a step by step complete install that would also explain why things are being done, so that is a definite plus.

 

For the Squetch Rig, if you wait until Mark Skodacek posts his Posable installation method it will be tons easier...it should be released sometime this weekend and will require the next version of AM (that should be out by Monday). It will make the positioning of the bones a snap...you will still have to reset compensates (which is still time consuming at the moment) and then do your CP Weighting though.

 

If you go the Squetch Rig route, feel free to post, PM or e-mail me if you have any questions and I'll get back to you as fast as I can.

[goodguy20k]

Next version of AM? Of version 13?

 

I'm highly tempted to rerig PB...

[itsjustme]

Next version of AM? Of version 13?

 

I'm highly tempted to rerig PB...

 

I think it's v13s...the next update should have the fix in it.

[largento]

Thanks for the input, guys!

 

I think I'm going to take a little of all of the above and save out a few different versions of the model to try the different methods with. It seems like a smart thing to do to go ahead and follow Barry's tutorial and go step by step with creating a rig first. Hopefully it'll relieve some of the "what the heck am I doing?!" anxiety I've been feeling so far. :-)

 

After that, I can revisit the 2001 rig and then by that time, the new stuff for the Squetch rig should be available and I can give it a shot.

 

Baby steps. :-)

[mtpeak2]

Yes, v13s will have the fix...14 alpha 6 has the fix already, that's why I will probably post it this weekend. Also was told importing a model with materials has been fixed in the alpha, not sure about 13s, I'm sure it has.

[cribbidaj]

Largento -

 

 

I've spent the last few months making headway into creating my own rigs using tutorials from a variety of sources.

 

First of all, rigging is a daunting task and there are plenty of people more qualified than I am to give you advice. However, I have had some success getting simple but effective results using tutorials from this link:

 

http://demented3d.com/tutorial/toontutoria...ging/basic.html

 

Somehow, these basic rigging tutorials clicked with me and I've been able to use and modify them for my needs pretty quickly.

 

-Chris

[largento]

Thanks for the link, Chris! I've been looking for a smartskinning tutorial.

 

I bit the bullet last week and went along with Barry's rigging tutorial DVD. Although there was a lot to it, it *did* start to make sense after awhile and the rig works pretty well! I think one of the missing pieces for me was finally "getting" the connection between the CPs and the bones. I guess I had it in my head that I was going to have to work to get the CPs to work with the rig, but it's actually getting the rig to work with the CPs.

 

I haven't done any smartskinning yet and I still have to do facial poses, but I've been playing around, posing the character and most of the joints seem to deform fairly well.

 

What was good, too, was that where I was having problems, I now had more of an idea of how to go back and re-do the mesh to fix it. I'm certain this will help me when I start on the next model.

 

I've gotten over a lot of the sense of terror I was feeling at the prospect of rigging. :-)

 

I've been having a lot of fun just putting him into poses. I think I'm tapping into memories of setting up my action figures when I was a kid. :-)

 

Here's the one I was playing with this morning. The background is just something I grabbed off of the web. I was finally able to show him holding the phaser I made...

 

[cribbidaj]

Very cool! - great, smooth looking model and a humorous 'Kirk' pose.

 

Smartskinning is another aspect of A:M which seems daunting but is relatively straightforward once you understand the process. I'll mention a few tips which I learned (am still learning) along the way. I apologize if I mention things you already have a handle on or seem obvious.

 

1) learn and experiment with CP weighting before and during smartskinning

2) make sure all Left Side cps and Left Side bones are exact mirrors of their Right Side counterparts (that is, if you want a symmetrically aligned model - your Captain model looks pretty much symmetrical). If anything differs from one side to the other, time-saving tasks such as 'mirror all smartskin' will not work on the mis-aligned bones.

3)When naming bones, follow exact naming conventions from 1 side to the next - Right Calf & Left Calf, not R calf and Lt calf. I know this seems obvious, but an idiot like me can make this kind of mistake very easily.

[largento]

Very cool! - great, smooth looking model and a humorous 'Kirk' pose.

 

Thanks!

 

Smartskinning is another aspect of A:M which seems daunting but is relatively straightforward once you understand the process. I'll mention a few tips which I learned (am still learning) along the way. I apologize if I mention things you already have a handle on or seem obvious.

 

Assume I have a handle on nothing. :-)

 

1) learn and experiment with CP weighting before and during smartskinning

2) make sure all Left Side cps and Left Side bones are exact mirrors of their Right Side counterparts (that is, if you want a symmetrically aligned model - your Captain model looks pretty much symmetrical). If anything differs from one side to the other, time-saving tasks such as 'mirror all smartskin' will not work on the mis-aligned bones.

3)When naming bones, follow exact naming conventions from 1 side to the next - Right Calf & Left Calf, not R calf and Lt calf. I know this seems obvious, but an idiot like me can make this kind of mistake very easily.

 

I haven't done any CP weighting with this rig, although I did mess with it a little with the 2001 rig. That was all stab-in-the-dark stuff, though. This is another thing that I think I'm going to have to spend some more time with to really understand it.

 

I'm fairly certain I'm in good shape with the bones being the same, since the tutorial walked me through completing one side, then saving it out, flipping it, renaming all the left bones to right bones and then importing it back in. The CPs are only mostly the same. I've since gone back and changed some things, though. I had a couple of 5-point patches in the armpits that were placed badly, so I went in and re-did those to get them into a better spot. I did the same thing to both sides, but I did it individually, so they aren't exactly the same. I also had to re-do his abdomen to make it work better with the legs and did that the same way. I wasn't sure if I could use mirror-mode to delete CPs and re-attach things and didn't experiment to see if I could. But, all of the other areas and joints should still be the same. Any of the adjustments I've made where I was just moving CPs around, I've used mirror-mode.

 

The only really bad joint I'm getting is the legs connecting to the hips. Especially if I pose him sitting down.

 

With CP weighting, I'll need to do the geometry bones (since they actually have CPs attached to them), but can I (should I) do the smartskinning with the control bones?

 

I'm hoping I can finish out this model this weekend, so that I can move on to the next one.

[cribbidaj]

[With CP weighting, I'll need to do the geometry bones (since they actually have CPs attached to them), but can I (should I) do the smartskinning with the control bones?]

 

I only do smartskinning on the geometry bones, not control bones. I am far from being the expert on this, but I don't think smartskinning works on bones to which cps are not directly attached.

 

As far as the hip/leg connection situation, I know exactly what you're running into, especially when creating sitting poses. I'm sure someone more knowledgeable than me could recommend intermediate bones (fan bones) to alleviate the problem, but I just solve it the best I can with smartskinning.

 

There is a good tutorial on rigging troublesome joints in Computer Arts Magazine:

 

http://www.computerarts.co.uk/tutorials/3d..._complex_joints

 

Cheers!

[itsjustme]

I haven't done any CP weighting with this rig, although I did mess with it a little with the 2001 rig. That was all stab-in-the-dark stuff, though. This is another thing that I think I'm going to have to spend some more time with to really understand it.

 

I did some CP Weighting in the A Face Rigging Method tutorial (I think some at the beginning to illustrate and then toward the end) that might help. There is also some CP Weighting in the Squetch Rig installation tutorials...I think a little at the beginning and then toward the end in part 5.

 

I'm fairly certain I'm in good shape with the bones being the same, since the tutorial walked me through completing one side, then saving it out, flipping it, renaming all the left bones to right bones and then importing it back in.

 

For mirroring bones, you might consider trying Steffen Gross' MirrorBone plugin...the information page for it is here.

 

Hope that helps.

[largento]

Thanks for the links to the tutorials, Chris & David! I really appreciate the help!

 

I'll check them out tonight when I get home.

 

Unfortunately, I'm out of luck on the MirrorBones plugin since I'm on an Intel Mac and it says it only works on PPC Macs. Although, I suppose I could load it onto my old computer and just bring it in there when I need to do it... it wasn't a huge production to do it the manual way, but I did some things wrong and ended up having to copy and paste in my relationships and for some reason I ended up with like 20 copies of each relationship and had to spend a bunch of time deleting all of those extras. I wouldn't want to have to go through that again!

[aen916]

Very cool pic - I can't wait to see him in action - I like the detail you put in to the phaser.

[largento]

Thanks, Andy! I found blueprints for it online and was able to use them for my rotoscopes.

 

I haven't done any animation yet. I've been waiting until I got a character fully modeled and rigged. I haven't started watching the 3rd Training DVD on animation yet, but I think it's going to be the part that's the most fun and rewarding. The modeling aspect of it is very appealing, but being able to bring the characters to life is the real end goal.

 

Hopefully after I have a few characters under my belt, I won't lose so much time just looking at 'em. :-)

 

Got to buckle down this weekend!

[largento]

Wow! Just noticed that there's a MirrorBones plug-in in A:M 14 and it works on my Intel Mac!

[phatso]

This may seem obvious, but one of the things I have found in my (few successful) rigs is that more often than not, bones to NOT belong in the middle of whatever they're controlling.

 

Disney artists were taught that most things have a bony side and a fleshy side, and if you watch their old animation, you see how fully that idea found its way into their work. An obvious example is the human finger, which has a fleshier underside.

 

You may find all of this so obvious as to be insulting, but I bring it up because I have so often seen otherwise competent models where the finger bones go right down the middle, and then the animator uses fan bones, smartskin and weighting to straighten things out. But if you put the bones just under the top of the finger and then simply assign CPs, the finger automatically curls with sufficient naturalness for simple animation. A little work with weighting makes it good enough even for close-ups.

 

Same with other bones - exactly where you put them is more important than which rig you use.

[largento]

Thanks for the tip! I'll give that a try next time.