How to achieve lighting like this...

[TommyDAQ2]

I'd love some advice, other than reading Jeremy Birn's book (which I have somewhere, lost in the move and separation... ugh), about how you would go about achieving lighting as in the attached sample.

 

The character is well lit, seeing all features, and even the underside of his cheeks, while there's still a nice soft shadow being cast by the brim of his hat.

 

I've been playing in a .cho all day tryint to get something similar. I built a psych w/ my character on it, and I probably had about 18 lights in there trying to achieve this effect and still wasn't even close.

 

The sample came out of 3DS Max - it's by a tremendous 3D cartoon artist in Paris, Julien Tromeur.

 

However, it'd be really great to be able to light characters like this in A:M. I don't mind putting the work in, but it'd be great for some guidance to get started. (Wish I still had that old Extras DVD - some of the sample scenes in there could probably help).

 

Would I start w/ a light array? Suns? Does ambient occlusion contribute to this kind of look?

 

Any tips you got would be greatly appreciated.

 

Thanks,

Tommy

[Rodney]

Let's stick with this until we get you all the way to your goal.

We'll need a decent model (like the one in the image) to work with... I can replicate the model somewhat but you may have something else to work with.

 

The first thing I note is that there is a lot to do with the image that isn't strictly speaking related to lighting.

So we may need more information relating to that to narrow our focus.

 

Regarding lighting effects:

There appears to be some object out of the frame that is reflecting into the scene.

Ambiant Occlusion is definitely adding some gray tones, shadows and such.

 

It is not clear whether these images have been composited.

The extend to which post processing has been accomplshed is still something of an unknown.

 

So a few quick suggestions:

 

Use Open EXR format (to gain higher dynamic range)

You can always convert to other format later (even using A:M).

For easy work of getting exactly the look you want I would render to various buffers.

This can be done with PNG and other formats as well if preferred.

In this way you can adjust the image to taste quickly in post (in A:M or other program)

 

Plan on using Ambiant Occlusion

SSAO is another option but I'd focus on AO first.

 

Plan on using an Environment Map and/or 'card' to reflect light/imagery back onto the character.

 

Use of Image Based Lighting (IBL) is definitely called for and the use of HDRI image will be ideal for maximum lighting effect

This is accomplished in the Choreography's properties. We can use a single color (even animated) or an image/image sequence.

 

It is this last one that mostly takes the place of a spinning light rig as that is accomplished by IBL automatically.

 

I recommend working in grayscale only until you get the ideal shades, hues, saturation, etc. working. Then add color.

If rendered out separately this can really pay of if compositing those images together as you can get finer control.

 

 

 

There's more but that's what comes to mind immediately.

[TommyDAQ2]

Wow, Rodney, that was a lot!

 

First of all, Yeah, I've got a model - based on the sample that was uploaded (see attachement).

 

I've never used OpenEXR. Is that compatible w/ PhotoShop or After Effects? Just thinking about post processing.

 

Not sure what SSAO is, I assume that's a variant of AO.

 

Hadn't even considered HDRI in A:M. I'll see if I can rig something up to implement that. Is there a specific way to set up HDRI for A:M?

 

Thanks!

Tommy

[TommyDAQ2]

Just found the IBL threads... I'll start there. Thanks Rodney

[Rodney]

I have to head off to work but here's what I'd call a first stage (after modeling a quick mockup of the character**).

 

No where close yet but I'm going through the process of reminding myself about more realistic lighting.

 

The guy on the left is your reference image dropped into the Chor next to the model so I have a reference target to hit.

 

 

**I ran out of time so I didn't model holes for the eyes and mouth. So... he's still a work in progress.

[TommyDAQ2]

Awesome mock-up, Rodney! Can't wait to see what you come up with! I'm rendering a quick (or not so quick) 180 frame character turning around so the customer can evaluate v1 of the model, so that knocks me out for the next few hours (and house work calls), but I'll start playing with some IBL w/ HDRI images after my rendering's done.

[robcat2075]

This would have been a great thing to bring to Live Answer time.

 

I think that lighting is probably very simple.

 

Maybe one very large z-buffered light, maybe AO and maybe a large white card behind the camera to provide the squarish specular highlight on the plastic.

 

 

I presume the image you show at the top is something the artist provided and not something you rendered in 3DSMax. If it was your render, you could just imitate the lighting in the 3DSMax "chor", right?

[TommyDAQ2]

Right Robcat... The Image I provided is the character the client found on iStock and said, I want THIS guy - so, I've built a model based on him. Really having trouble smoothing the mesh on his face though. Seems like such a simple model, but it's giving me difficulty.

Here's my first render for he client review (of just the model), but I have not yet gotten that look that I want to get like in the sample:

https://youtu.be/nSSON4gXlZg

 

 

FWIW, I tried one large Z-buffered light, but hadn't played w/ Ambient light, which would probably be necessary to get that look. \\

 

 

...and Sorry I missed Live Answer Time... I thought about it at about 2:15 - It was 1-2 in my time zone.

[itsjustme]

Here's my guess...one klieg overhead and slightly left illuminating only the character (for the shadow under the hat brim) and ambient occlusion lighting the entire scene (causing the different shadow beneath the character). This is just a quick attempt...it needs work.

 

 

[TommyDAQ2]

1 Z-buffered Spot: Shadows 20% soft, 80% dark

 

Choreography:

- Global Ambience: 25%

- Ambience Occlusion: 100%

 

Camera:

- Global Ambience: 23% (What's the difference???)

- Ambience Occlusion: 50% (again, what's the diff???)

- SSAO: On (default settings)

 

Nothing reflecting for spec highlights.

 

Still not there, but very simple setup. ~1 min per frame

 

[robcat2075]

Here's a test with one z-buffered light and one fill light, no AO. 2 seconds

 

 

 

 

Here is a similar setup but with AO. 1 minute 13 seconds.

 

[robcat2075]

I'll note that one typically doesn't use both AO and SSAO at the same time.

 

SSAO is a "fake" AO. It can look great and is fast but the parameters must be set very carefully for each scene. The default values are just there so that they are not all zero.

[TommyDAQ2]

Rob, Will you share what your Z-buff settings are on your first image? And how do you have AO set in the second one?

 

Also, and this is a (has been) Newbie question: Are my progressive renders representative of what my "Final" renders would be?

 

and... fwiw, I can't get IBL to work for S***! Have a nice HDRI Studio lighting image loaded, set to Lat/Long, then Mirrrored Sphere, but it just renders flat. I've obviously got something set wrong.

 

Going back to using lights!

[robcat2075]

variation...

 

[TommyDAQ2]

Looks really nice... Yes, I would love to achieve that look, but I'm not sure how to.

 

Want to share your .prj, or .cho? or at least where and how you have your lights set?

 

Looks really great, Rob!

[robcat2075]

Rob, Will you share what your Z-buff settings are on your first image? And how do you have AO set in the second one?

 

 

Here are two PRJs and the render setting presets to use with them...

 

TDAQTest02 NoAO.prj

TDAQTestNoAO.pre

 

 

TDAQTest03 WithAO.prj

TDAQTestWithAO.pre

In all of these there is a main kleig (Spot) light and a Fill Light. Only the kleig light has shadows. The "Key " light is off.

 

There is a white card behind the camera to make the square reflection on the eggbot body.

The card is set to 100% ambient , white

The card is set to Cast Shadows OFF and Cast Occlusion OFF

 

The ground is set to cast no reflections.

The diffuse Falloff of the Ground is set to less than 100% to make it whiter, however it reduces the appearance of AO on the ground.

 

Fog is used behind the eggbot to blank out the background.

 

The intensity of the lights and shadows is set in the chor. They are different in each version.

 

 

 

 

 

Also, and this is a (has been) Newbie question: Are my progressive renders representative of what my "Final" renders would be?

 

 

 

they should be but not always.

[robcat2075]

Some spline lumpiness can be reduced (presuming there are no other problems) by setting Surface>Average Normals>ON and Normal Weight>50

[TommyDAQ2]

Wow, Rob, this is really great!!! I look forward to learning what i can from your sample files, as well as the bonus tips! I had no idea I could set Surface>Average Normals... Thank you, so much!!!

 

Is the "Average Normals" set with the Normal Weight of whichever group I want to adjust?

 

-Tommy

[robcat2075]

Is the "Average Normals" set with the Normal Weight of whichever group I want to adjust?

 

-Tommy

 

Anything that has Surface properties. So, yes, you can do it in a group if you don't want to do it on the whole model.

[TommyDAQ2]

Perfect! Thank you!

[Rodney]

Nice. I go away for a few hours and cool stuff gets posted.

 

As an aside:

The Average Normals setting is supposed to replace the old porcelain material that accomplished much the same thing (averaging/blending normals).

I've heard various people say they still like to use porcelain material but that shouldn't be the case.

I've yet to see (or run) any tests that confirm or deny either so that may be something we (collectively) need to investigate.

 

 

The card is set to 100% ambient , white

 

Doh! You just made me realize what I forgot to do during my recent testing.

I didn't crank up the ambient setting.

 

Fog is used behind the eggbot to blank out the background.

 

Another trick in similar fashion is to make the ground plane mostly transparent (each setup calls for a different percentage but a good starting place is 80%).

Then set the camera background color to the desired color and the ground will render 'mostly' that color and tend to fade into it as it progresses to the horizon.

This also works well when rendering with alpha channel because whatever background the image is placed over will blend in with the partially transparent ground plane.

As such we can control the color of background and ground dynamically on a webpage via CSS or whatever.

Shhh... this is a very secret technique so don't tell anyone.

[robcat2075]

Further comparison of Normal Weight settings

[TommyDAQ2]

Nice. I go away for a few hours and cool stuff gets posted.

 

As an aside:

The Average Normals setting is supposed to replace the old porcelain material that accomplished much the same thing (averaging/blending normals).

I've heard various people say they still like to use porcelain material but that shouldn't be the case.

I've yet to see (or run) any tests that confirm or deny either so that may be something we (collectively) need to investigate.

 

 

The card is set to 100% ambient , white

 

Doh! You just made me realize what I forgot to do during my recent testing.

I didn't crank up the ambient setting.

 

Fog is used behind the eggbot to blank out the background.

 

Another trick in similar fashion is to make the ground plane mostly transparent (each setup calls for a different percentage but a good starting place is 80%).

Then set the camera background color to the desired color and the ground will render 'mostly' that color and tend to fade into it as it progresses to the horizon.

This also works well when rendering with alpha channel because whatever background the image is placed over will blend in with the partially transparent ground plane.

As such we can control the color of background and ground dynamically on a webpage via CSS or whatever.

Shhh... this is a very secret technique so don't tell anyone.

I like that idea of the translucent floor - going to play with that...

 

Also, thinking about he IBL that I had been struggling with, I hope to do some tests today w/ a reflective cube and sphere to document how each of the different environment mapping techniques resolves. Unless that's something that is already around in relation to IBL, I think it'd be a nice resource to have.

[robcat2075]

I'll add that the white card trick is a real-life photographers technique for getting idealized images of glossy surfaces like cars.

 

It isn't necessarily behind the camera, you put it wherever it gets you the highlights you want, that best reveal the shape of the object.

 

 

 

 

 

Those giant box lights aren't cheap in the real world. $10,000 and up

[robcat2075]

Something that helps warm up the character in the original image is the slight red blush added to the nose, cheeks and inside the ears. That is painted on, not a rendering effect.

[TommyDAQ2]

I agree... hadn't gotten to the facial decal yet.

 

BTW, Your setup didn't look as good w/ my character - he got quite washed out and flat. Perhaps settings may have gotten out of whack in passing from your setup to mine,

 

Detbear tried a setup for him that is basically just a Klieg, AO and some GA, and it looks really great. I've got to keep playing with this so I can start to get these nuances right.

 

Thanks for everything guys. I'll post something back here when I'm further along with it.

[robcat2075]

It absolutely can be done. If you get stuck, come back and ask some more.

[largento]

I played with this for awhile tonight.

 

This uses four lights (a key, two spots and a fill) as well as global lighting. The thing I was noticing looking at the original is that it has a kind of blue-ish feel to the light. I used Porcelain and an environmental map on the skin, as well as some speculation.

 

 

I set the fill to a negative number to darken the right side of the face and gave the key light a light blue color.

 

Not quite the same...

[Rodney]

Awesome results Mark!

Truly fantastic.

 

For negative lights I turn the shadows off or else they produce negative lights.

Not sure if you did that or not.

 

 

...and hehe... 'speculation'. hehe...

That must be the secret sauce.

[detbear]

What I worked up for Tommy was to capture what I feel is appealing for most people in regard to the style

in his example. I use a similar set up to capture a more realistic look to my Lego animations. To make the toys

seem more real on the screen. As if they came alive on your desk and you video'd it with a smart phone.

 

There is a "Clay" style look that seems very appealing to many artists and Audiences. It's certainly not the

only style, but it does carry a realistic vibe. The allure seems to be that you can reach into the

screen and pick it up with your fingers. And yet when animated it moves and breathes and gives the illusion

of life.

 

BUT appeal is in the eye of the beholder. It's just a style that I like. Seems as though others do also.

 

That was the essence of where I saw this original thread going. It is not as complexed lighting wise as it seems, but

texturing and shaders do play an important role.

[detbear]

BTW...... Mark... That looks really cool man.

[robcat2075]

Great job, Mark!

[Rodney]

I confess that much of my work tends to avoid the solid computer generated look (read: realistically rendered)

This may be because of my focus more on a 'comic book' abstracted style with an emphasize on linework over surface and shading.

Having said that, when I see the results of the solid rendering style I can't help but like it!

The specific area that I like seems to be that where the objects take on the look of plastic but I imagine the same thing could be said about other surfaces.

We just happen to be looking at a plastic looking surface at the moment.

It's great that Animation:Master can accommodate so many styles.

[TommyDAQ2]

Mark, That does look really good! and I LOVE your rendition of that character!

 

I've attached a rendering that Kevin set up w/ my guy. It definitely hits what I was trying to achieve - a nice, professional looking "product shot" to show the client the character - and it's a very simple setup.

 

Thanks everyone for the input and ideas on this. Very educational and inspiring!

 

Character spin_640x360.mov

[detbear]

I'm so glad that worked for you. It was fun to set up.

 

Let us know how everything turns out with it.

[largento]

Good job, guys and thanks.

 

I realized @ 2:30am, that when I'd dragged the original back from my secondary monitor that the blueishness I was seeing was from the monitor. :-)

 

I don't doubt that the original may have spent some time in Photoshop. I think most things we see have been color-graded or enhanced that way.