Setting default value of On/Off Pose Slider?

[Rodney]

I've done this before and know that there is a specific place we have to look to set this but I forget.

Perhaps someone can get me back on track.

 

I have a faint recollection that this is best set immediately upon creation of the pose slider as well.

The most basic example is the On/Off pose where the pose is set to On by default (which without setting is 'Not Set' by default)

In the case of a percentage pose the example might be to set the default as 0 on a scale of -100 to 100.

 

As I have to occasionally revisit this It'd be good to get this cemented in my mind.

 

Thanks in advance!

 

 

 

Edit: I may have answered my question already but I'm hoping my answer is wrong. I see that we can easily set the default and other settings of a pose in an Action. I thought we could set the default in the Model itself.

[NancyGormezano]

I thought we could set the default in the Model itself.

You can - set it in the model/user properties. Then save the model for it to be permanent.

[Fuchur]

You can right-click on the pose (eighter in the User Properties or the timeline) and choose "Settings" from the menu.

There you can choose what should be the default and it will be saved for the pose of the model.

See you

*Fuchur*

[Rodney]

You can right-click on the pose (eighter in the User Properties or the timeline) and choose "Settings" from the menu.

There you can choose what should be the default and it will be saved for the pose of the model.

 

That would be great *if* the Settings option was always there.

Unfortunately, it doesn't always appear in all Poses (and hasn't in all cases as long as I can recall).

 

It appears that this is primarily a difference between the On/Off pose versus the percentage pose.

In the Percentage Pose the Settings option appears while in the On/Off pose it doesn't (always).

 

This has been a long standing thing and I've never brought it up in the forum before as I've never locked down the rules of engagement (i.e. the optimum workflow).

 

Try this and see if the Setting option shows up upon Right Click.

- Create New Model (empty or otherwise)

- Right Click and create a new On/Off Pose

- Now Right Click and look for the Settings option to set the defaults

 

Most of the time (although I won't swear that it's always) the Setting option isn't there to select.

In a percentage pose it appears to always be there (I still need to confirm)

 

Perhaps this is an omission that no one ever reported?

I have a faint memory of the settings option appearing intially when creating a Pose but then disappearing later.

I also have a dim recollection of asking Raf Anzovin why the Setup Machine didn't create rigs that were turned on by default. I never got a satisfactory reply to that query. Most folks said... just turn the thing on. I viewed it more from a newbie standpoint of deflecting questons of why the rig didn't work when what really needed to happen to activate the rig was turn on a pose. Could it be that an issue with setting the default to On was an issue even back then?

 

Some of my thinking that the Settings option appeared/disappeared may just be the result of me going from an On/Off pose to a percentage pose and not realizing I had altered the variables.

 

 

Added: As it appears to be more accurate I've edited the topic to specify setting defaults for On/Of poses.

[Rodney]

This is something like a ten year old thing so I'm hopeful that a solution will float to the top.

It can obviously take me awhile to get around to addressing issues but I eventually do.

 

I vaguely recall using a text editor to test setting of the default but I don't remember the outcome of that.

This was sometime around when percentage poses gained the abilty to go into larger ranges than 1 to 100 and allowed negative percentages.

[robcat2075]

Rodney, try this...

 

clip3922SettingPoseDefault.mov

[Rodney]

Thanks! That's close Robert. I don't think it's a fix but certainly a work around.

What we'd have to test would be saving the model out and then reopening and see if the newly assigned default is maintained in the process.

Unfortunately, I don't think it addresses the main issue.

 

The underlying need is to have any number of on/off poses set in the Model so that when they are opened/reopened in A:M the defaults appear as set and will revert to that default as necessary. This would be similar to that of setting the defaults in a percentage pose.

 

And that presents another workaround.

 

We can forego the standard On/Off pose entirely and set up a percentage pose that consists of boolean response; 0 and 1.... -1 and 0... whatever, as long as only two states are allowed. This would create the desired on/off pose whose default could be saved and reloaded. I briefly used that workaround once before.

 

I'll look again at your video and double check to see if it doesn't provide a fuller solution than I see on first viewing.

Easy enough to test. I'm curious if saving the Model out via the Chor saves the 'new' default in the Model or if it reverts back to original or not set.

[Rodney]

Robert,

Results from my quick test suggest.... that wont quite resolve the issue.

For a second I thought it might.

But we may yet turn this weakness into a strength.

 

Taking a look at the percentage on/off option...

In a world where all poses are percentage poses an on/off pose can be created by setting 0 as minimum and 1 as maximum.

An important setting is the percentage however. That needs to be changed to 0 because if left at 100 my understanding is that will result in percent increments between 0 and 1. (which could be useful also)

Setting the percentage option to 0 though results in an either 0 or 1 result which is exactly what we want.

 

As of this moment, if a solution to the on/off defaulting doesn't present itself it looks to me like an all percentage pose approach may be optimal because on/off is a subset of a percentage between 0 and 1 anyway.** The on/off pose would then be used for generic poses that are assigned as 'not set' by default (i.e. a switch that is optimal for awaiting user input of the yes/no variety).

 

**And all this time I had no idea A:M allowed us to create poses that leverage fuzzy logic.

[Rodney]

Still have to test the percentage on/off switches further as I'm getting inbetweening where previously I hadn't seen any and thought I'd be getting all or nothing results.

A workaround there would be to specify smaller increments which while it won't remove inbetweening will make it negligible.

 

Example:

Default=.1

Minimum=0

Maximum=.1

...

 

On the plus side this actually aids in the pose to pose approach to animation in that we get the extremes easily and then refine the inbetweens intentionally (and if desired even mathematically).

[largento]

I'm confused. My memory is that if you click on the on/off in the User properties, you can then right-click and choose constant. That will make the choice you set appear when you open the model. Is that what you're asking, Rodney?

[Rodney]

I'm confused. My memory is that if you click on the on/off in the User properties, you can then right-click and choose constant. That will make the choice you set appear when you open the model. Is that what you're asking, Rodney

 

Good thinking and an even better theory.

My initial test didn't work but subsequent tests did.

I'm checking again to find out what I changed in the process of testing.

Choosing 'Constant' shouldn't matter though as that is the default so whether on or off constant is selected (unless manually set to time based... haven't even thought to try that... yet more variables/options).

 

One odd thing I did note is that after saving as you suggest when the model is opened the pose isn't set to the last saved constant... in the Model... but as soon as the Model is opened in an Action the pose turns on (or off) in accordance with the setting saved prior.... in other words, correctly. This is in accordance with your memory of how it works. If this is always the case, which it appears to be, this may be a 90% solution. The only downside being that the desired default is not 'activated' in the Model until an Action or (presumably) Chor Action is invoked. This is a bit odd so I'm trying to lock my understanding of what is going on down and I'll bump this result up against prior tests and desired outcomes to determine what gaps remain unresolved or if I've inadvertently reframed my original target. There are some variables I still need to account for.

 

Sorry for all the text but I'm documenting what I'm doing so I can repeat the process.

Here's what I'm seeing at present:

(Aligned with what you've suggested)

I've created a simple 3 CP spline Model.

Set an on/off pose where on turns the spline into a smile and off turns it into a frown.

Set the pose to on and save the Model as 'smile.mdl'.

Set the pose to off and save the Model as 'frown.mdl'.

Open a new project (this is to make sure we are starting from ground zero with no pose data left in memory or a chance to inadvertently be in the wrong window)

Import smile.mdl

Import frown.md

Note that -in the Models- the pose sliders correctly display 'On' (for smile.mdl) and 'Off' (for frown.mdl). The disconnect here is that looking at the screen wouldn't tell you this because the three CPs are in their original position in a straight line neither smiling or frowning. Again, this in in the Model view.

Open a Chor (the same thing can be done via Action)

Drag/Drop both models into the Chor

Note that each model activates appropriately in the Chor (or Action) with Smile.mdl smiling and Frown.mdl frowning.

 

A few additional notes

Within the Chor the poses are now set at Use Cache Value instead of Constant.

This is fine as the poses have appeared as desired. Setting to Constant merely locks those down.

 

I find myself wondering if viewing the pose in the Model might not be a refresh issue but it appears to be the way it is designed to work (i.e showing the default pose of the model without regard to any pose settings. In the case of a character's T Pose the assumption being that in the Model we'd see the T pose but as soon as opened in an Action or Chor the Model would change to the default pose stored in the pose slider(s).

 

Thanks Mark! You've given me another important angle to investigate.

Now I have to investigate with an eye toward making sure I formulated the right use case/need in my post above. There I stated:

The underlying need is to have any number of on/off poses set in the Model so that when they (the Models) are opened/reopened in A:M the defaults appear as set and will revert to that default as necessary.

 

From what I can tell this is be resolved *after* the Model is opened in an Action or Chor.

While in the Model mode the poses appear to be correctly stored and just awaiting activation. (Stored potential.... I like it!)

I need to better understand how this relates to Drag/Drop poses as optimally (and originally) intended to work.

 

I should be able to rule out a specific need for (default) poses to appear (i.e. be active) in the Model view.

At the moment, other than for aesthetics and perhaps to prevent confusion of the 'hey, I thought I posed this model-variety', I can't think of any specific case where that would be required.

Aside: And if there is such a need, why are the poses in the Model not initially seen/active.

 

Obviously, I also need to test on more complex models.

[Rodney]

Not seeing the results in the Model definitely throws me for a loop every time.

This may just be a matter of getting use to a particular workflow but I just tried a new pose (for a different test) and thought to also use it as a test to see how the default pose would work.

I set everything up, saved the model and opened a new (empty) project to import the Model into.

Upon opening the Model I see the results in the Model Window as if I hadn't set up the pose, although the Pose itself shows that it is set to On so 'should' be showing.

To complicate matters, no Pose slider is showing in the Pose window... I must go to User Properties to see the pose slider.

(That should have been a clue)

Then I remember to open the Model in an Action and BAM! Sure enough the pose is on and displayed accordingly.

 

Almost there but not quite.

More staring at this is required...

[robcat2075]

I guess i"m confused about the exact goal. I'll try to re-read this from the top tomorrow.

[robcat2075]

I'm still confused about what you want if it is not to have the default state of an ON/OFF Pose saved in a model. I've not seen a case where my solution doesn't work to save and set the default state of a Pose.

 

How about this... bring your case to Live Answer Time on Saturday and we will figure it out.

[Rodney]

bring your case to Live Answer Time on Saturday and we will figure it out.

 

I"m starting to get a list of things to run through Live Answer Time on Saturday.

 

I've not seen a case where my solution doesn't work to save and set the default state of a Pose.

 

It's not that it doesn't save. One part of this is that the result of that state doesn't appear (in the Modeling Window (i.e. while it does appear in a Relationship, Action or Chor window).

This is to be expected because Models aren't dynamic and Mark clued me in that this may be more of a workflow issue. I might be occasionally expecting to see a result in a Model window when it's not designed to be there in the first place. What I need to do on my end is put together a couple use cases that basically state (This works this way. This works that way. This way isn't working as I had anticipated... or isn't working optimally. Etc.) That would also cut down on any ramp up time during Live Answer just defining the issue and getting everyone on the same page.

 

As interested in smoothing this one out as I am though I've got several other questions of more interest to me personally I'd like to pose during Live Answer and they might be of the variety where the question is introduced at one Live Answer Session so that it can be addressed in a future session.

 

Actually, the following might be the 'concise' set up and question regarding the issue because it is something that is observable and repeatable:

Robert said:

I'm still confused about what you want if it is not to have the default state of an ON/OFF Pose saved in a model.

 

 

In a Percentage pose we can Right Click and select 'Settings' to assign default values but...

In an On/Off pose the 'Settings' option is not available.

This may be the cause of my confusion because after using that option to set default values in a percentage pose I try to do the same in the On/Off pose but can't... in the same way.

The logical reason for this is of course because there are (presumed to be) only two states the on/off pose can have (although there are actually three state); on, off and not set.

But at any rate, the workflows of percentage poses and on/off poses are different enough that depending whether the Model is saved and where it is viewed the pose may appear not to have worked.

Nancy provided an initial piece of the issue that I originally skimmed over (that of Saving) and that is an essential element to storing the persistent state. Therefore the step can't be overlooked in the workflow either. Gerald provided another piece of the puzzle by demonstrating a known workflow that doesn't apply universally; the Setting option is not present in an On/Off pose while it is easily accessed (and obvious!) in poses with percentages.

 

I've found it fascinating that the word 'confusion' has surfaced on several fronts because those with experience are well established in workflows (that workflows that work that is) whereas on my end I've mostly just been bumping up against trying to repeat the exact same steps where those steps cannot be re-stepped. The approach/workflow is different.

[robcat2075]

I might be occasionally expecting to see a result in a Model window when it's not designed to be there in the first place.

 

 

 

Ah-ha! I see the problem.

 

A Pose will NEVER show its result in the model window.

 

A Pose is like an offset from the original state of the model. It is something added to the model. That is how it is stored internally. A Pose is a set of values to be added to the values of the original thing that the Pose is affecting.

 

 

Suppose you had a CP at 10cm on the X axis and your Pose moved it to 15cm on the X axis. That Pose stores a +5 for that CP, not a 15.

 

If you later changed your model so that that CP was at X=7cm rather than 10cm, the Pose would put the CP at 12cm when it was ON. (7 + 5 = 12)

 

 

 

If you want a model with that Posed Shape as the new default mesh you could put the model in a Chor, turn on the Pose, and then export the model from the Chor.

[Rodney]

Ah-ha! I see the problem.

 

Yes, indeed! Although I perceive two 'problems' so I'd parse that as 'one of the problems' rather than 'the problem'.

Thanks much for the insightful look and documentation of what is going on.

 

If you want a model with that Posed Shape as the new default mesh you could put the model in a Chor, turn on the Pose, and then export the model from the Chor.

 

This is an important element of the bigger picture (beyond the issue at hand but moving into a future state of even better understanding for average users and workflows) so I want to 'note to self' for that purpose here.

I think it's important (although hardly so from a practical purpose in production) to move beyond things like 'T Poses' where models arrive in states that are 'unnatural'.

Getting a model into what one might consider a 'golden pose' or even set of poses that help define 'character' (I think) is important.

This may be especially true for shared resources, although I should caveat this with the statement that I don't think the originator of the resource is in any way constrained to get that resource into that optimal state/pose. Their primary focus is the initial design and potential (the modeling if you will) that allows for optimal animation.

 

I'm stepping a bit far afield of the topic to further this idea a little more.

Take a character such as Keekat for instance or several of the other characters that come standard with A:M and that are featured in initial tutorials. Keekat has one pose slider called 'Dynamic Pose' that demonstrates basic articulation of the model and (presumably) is designed to suggest character and performance. woo boy howdee... now that's what we are talkin' 'bout. Moving beyond the model... moving beyond the potential... moving into the realm of animating character performance (or at least one extreme pose on the way to that end).

 

This makes me wonder...

What downsides might there be to saving a character such as Keekat out with his dynamic pose turned on... thereby storing that pose so that it's automatically activated upon opening in an Action or Chor.

The pro response might be to suggest that it is easier to start from the T pose rather than from a more or less random pose that may or may not be anywhere in the ballpark of what the shot/scene at hand calls for.

I'm not convinced. I *think* we are looking more for a state where the character is 'alive'. The character 'learns'. The character presents better options to the animator/director to choose from from those that (currently) define its character.

 

Put another way...

Why would we want to preset a pose with any given setting in the first place?

Why define a percentage pose from -100 to 100... 0 to 5... whatever?

Why set a pose to on? When would it be better set to off?

I submit that it's because there is an anticipated purpose... a framing of potential outcomes... a 'set' of environmental variables to aid and direct us in our future work.

[robcat2075]

One example of a Pose that you would typically want ON by default is a Pose the contains the constraints that make the rig work.

[Rodney]

One example of a Pose that you would typically want ON by default is a Pose the contains the constraints that make the rig work.

 

Ha! Now we've gone full circle.

Yes, exactly. That was the source of great confusion with The Setup Machine all those many years ago which was my introduction to the underlying problem in the first place. I could not understand why folks would want to continually answer newbie questions about why a TSM rig wasn't working with the same answer over and over again, "Turn on the rig's constraint to turn the rig on first." Say what???