Render Anomoly.

[Simon Edmondson]

Working in V17g with OSX 10.68

 

Still trying to finish this project ( in amomgst a lot of other thing )

Presently putting in some blink poses

 

an odd render problem seems to have occurred ?

 

You can see that theres a non white sector in the Left eye ?

and the boundary box around the selected CP's.

 

 

 

If I hid the other cp's and render again this happens,

No miscoloured patch.

 

Nothing else has been changed, only the other cp's are not there.

Can anyone kindly suggest a cause and solution ?

simon

 

 

 

[robcat2075]

Does it happen when the model is in a chor, seen by a camera?

[Simon Edmondson]

Robert

Thank you for your reply.

Heres a closeup from a camera view in the chor. As you can see, the fault occurs there too.

Its not always apparent because of the scale of the image , but it is there,.

regards

simon

 

[robcat2075]

Can you send me that model in a PM? I'll try to look at it.

[Simon Edmondson]

Robert.

Thank you for your help and kind offer. Much appreciated.

I think I've sent it. Though not sure.

regards

simon

[robcat2075]

I got it and have been looking at it.

 

It is a perplexing oddity which I think is a combination of mis-connected splines, 3-pointers and maybe group conflicts but i haven't found a way to solve it with the original geometry.

 

Would it be permissible to spline the eyesurface like this?

 

 

 

To do that, delete the CPs and splines that make the interior of the eyesurface, then extrude the ring that remains inward a couple times.

[Simon Edmondson]

Robert

Thank you for looking and for your help.

Unfortunately I won't be able to get to it until Friday evening as I have college commitments inbetween.

I will try to follow up your suggestions then

Its curious because it didn't manifest itself with earlier versions and I only made what I thought were minor changes the other day. I will check on thte other machine to see if its there on that version.

regards

simon

[Simon Edmondson]

With apologies for the delayed posting, busy weekend.

Went to look at themodel on another machine and the problem was not there.

 

To try and get around it, I deleted the eye with the problem, copied the other eye ( which had no problem ) and pasted it over the problem. Went back and redid the poses with the new eye.

 

That seemed to go well untill I tested it.

This was the result

 

Hid the rest, rendered the pupil

 

so I rendered the eyes only

No problem apparent

 

Tried both with left pupil missing

 

Bert 003.mdl

 

If anyone could kindly point out the error of my ways I would be very grateful.

regards

simon

[itsjustme]

These all appear to be progressive renders...does the problem show up on a final render?

[NancyGormezano]

My first suspicion (without looking at your model) is using toon lines, toon rendering and displacement. There have always been "funnies" in rendering with toon. If you don't render with toon - does the anomaly still show up?

[Simon Edmondson]

David, Nancy

Thank you for your replies, much appreciated.

I followed up yoour suggestions and that seems to have been the problem.

 

This was it as a quick render

 

 

This was it with non toon

 

 

and this was it as a final render with toon setting

 

I will render a sequence and see if there is any variation.

Thank you.

regards

simon

 

[robcat2075]

When I tried the previous versions i found it would happen in final renders even without toon on.

[Simon Edmondson]

Robert

Thank you for your help. I found it very inconsistent sometimes it would appear on the opposite side, sometimes in the whites of the eyes, others in the pupil. It was a bit like the problem with the bear doing the slalom a while back. Then sections of the snow would appear brown for a few frames then disappear again. That turned out to be because I was using bump as well as displacement so stopped using bump.With this I tried altering the % value on the displacement maps but it seemed to make no difference to the anomoly.

 

There was a odd moment when displacement in toon render, stopped working altogether, but I rebooted and it came back. I wondered if I had picked up a virus but checked with the Mac fanatics I know and that was ruled out. Rendered a 3 second sequence at 1080 overnight and the results were very inconsistent.

Here is a qt of the frames.

The section in his left pupil appears from after the second blink, disappears again, and then returns in a few of the last ones ?

A puzzle.

regards

simonRender Test.mov

 

Trying a Non Toon version now

Will post a QT later but, it would seem that the problem continues in non toon renders as well.

 

[NancyGormezano]

I notice a variety of things funny about the modeling of the eyes - 1) the left pupil has the normals pointing the wrong way, 2) it looks like there are internal edges in the pupil (you probably extruded the pupils), and 3) both pupils are intersecting the "white part" of the eye.

 

If you look at the eyes only from a back view (in model window) - you can see that both render funny

 

Try breaking the internal edges (or get rid of the back faces of pupil), fixing the normals to face front, and move the pupils out some from the white part so that they are not intersecting the white part?

Edited June 9, 2015 by NancyGormezano

[Simon Edmondson]

Heres a non toon render of the same sequence.

The anomoly is still present but not as visible.

simonNon Toon.mov

[NancyGormezano]

heres some screen caps.

 

I repeat, just in case you missed above post

 

I notice a variety of things funny about the modeling of the eyes - 1) the left pupil has the normals pointing the wrong way, 2) it looks like there are internal edges in the pupil (you probably extruded the pupils), and 3) both pupils are intersecting the "white part" of the eye.

 

If you look at the eyes only from a back view (in model window) - you can see that both render funny

 

Try breaking the internal edges (or get rid of the back faces of pupil), fixing the normals to face front, and move the pupils out some from the white part so that they are not intersecting the white part?

 

Edited June 9, 2015 by NancyGormezano

[Rodney]

Nicely deduced Nancy.

[Simon Edmondson]

Nancy.

Thank you.

Sincere apologies, I did miss your post. I will check straight away.

regards

simon

[NancyGormezano]

Any luck?

[Simon Edmondson]

Nancy

I had a quick look at redoing the pupils last night but didn't get very far, I've been a bit busy with other things today but will get to it again tomorrow night with luck and post the result Friday.

Thank you for your Hedlp.

regards

simon

[Simon Edmondson]

I begin to wonder if I have picked up some corruption somewhere (?)

 

Completely remodeled the eye from scratch, no decals applied. Used lathing rather than constructed patches. Put the left eye in place then copied and pasted for the right eye and put that in place.

This was the result

 

 

While I was working on that, it was very frustrating because everything was taking a long time and, more frequentlly than not, causing the swirling Beach ball. Just selecting a group was taking several seconds. This is not normal either with AM or this Imac.

 

Would it be a good idea to uninstall and go for a fresh install from new ?

regards

simon

 

Should add that its V17g under OSX 10.68

Just trying it with V18 f now

[NancyGormezano]

hmmm...very curious.

 

I just tried to redo pupil. And was not successful in getting rid of problem - it seemed to move. In the process of redoing, I noticed that you have many modeling funnies, which may or may not be contributing to problem when using displacement. Not sure.

 

The modeling funnies are all over (ears, neck/shoulder for example). It seems you tend to violate some A:M modeling rules (such as in extruding the ears from existing patches, and having 5 splines come together in neck/shoulder).

 

However, without remodeling, I am noticing that the problem seems to be a result of using displacement. And the problem will change how it shows up based on how close to camera you are (and maybe angle?). If you change the displacement image to a bump type (made the cylidrical decal 10x10 seamless on, 30%, planar one 1x5 30%), the problem goes away.

 

Unfortunately without remodeling, I can't really test hypothesis. So changing displacement to bump is all that I can suggest right now.

 

I have never had to reinstall A:M. Never needed it. Would not think will clear anything up for you. At most, one might do help/reset settings. But that is also very rare for me. Doing that will not help this.

 

heres the model with displacement changed to bump

 

Sorry.

 

EDIT: problem shows up in 16b/32 and 17g/64. Have not seen it in 18M - but like I said, it seems to be intermittent. Sometimes I can consistently get problem to occur in 16b, 17g

 

EDIT2: nope - problem shows up in 18m with multipass render

Bert 003ver17gneweyes30perBUMP.mdl

Edited June 13, 2015 by NancyGormezano

[Simon Edmondson]

Nancy

Thank you very much indeed for your kind help. I was unaware of the AM rules but will try to observe them in future. The Model of the Bear was developed from the Thom model on the dvd. All the groups listed are to keep track of parts before editing down later. The most annoying problems are inconsistent ones because you can never be sure you've got it. Aside from the render glitch the delayed response time is really irritating. I will try this model on another computer to see if its this one that is causing the trouble, it is getting quite old now.

regards

simon

[markw]

Hi Simon
Good to see you still working away at this project. Nearly there!
Now dare I say this?
Perhaps don't spend too many hours trying to fix this glitch.
As the problem is at least consistent in where it happens, if not when exactly, you could just check the frames where the bears face is visible after rendering and then re-touch any affected frames in a paint program, before turning the image sequence into a video file.
It would take but a few seconds to re-touch each frame and would certainly be less frustrating than spending more hours trying to nail down what may be causing this strange glitch in the renders.
Just a thought.

[Simon Edmondson]

Mark

Thank you for your reply. Good to see you too.

I think I may well end up doing that as it is getting very annoying. The main worry, as mentioned above, is the sudden slowing down of the processes. It only seems to affect AM, doesn't seem to affect other programs, although I'll watch out for that now. The "beachball of destiny" is a frustrating sight ! Have you had any trouble with your Macs in a similar way ?

regards

simon

[NancyGormezano]

Have you tried hitting the "page down" (multiple times, till you hear the bell), to make it display faster in real-time ? (decreases the number of subdivisions, not sure if that is available in mac?).

 

As for the modeling funnies - I eliminated the ears and the problem remains . I doubt fixing the arm/neck areas (5 splines coming together) would help.

 

I am "convinced" it is a displacement issue. But since you aren't going to deal with this anymore, I won't waste my time trying to track it down further.

[Simon Edmondson]

Nancy

I am very grateful for your help, it is much appreciated. I would love to know what is causing the trouble so I can avoid it in the future. I am going to check on the Mini a little later with an old version of the model and, if that works, reimport it into this.

The biggest problem is one of time. This has already overshot by about 6months and all the course work is piling up too.

Regards

simon

[markw]

Mark

Thank you for your reply. Good to see you too.

I think I may well end up doing that as it is getting very annoying. The main worry, as mentioned above, is the sudden slowing down of the processes. It only seems to affect AM, doesn't seem to affect other programs, although I'll watch out for that now. The "beachball of destiny" is a frustrating sight ! Have you had any trouble with your Macs in a similar way ?

regards

simon

Yes, sometimes it can slow but it's never been a major issue.

Nancy's suggestion of lowering the subdivision in the realtime view can help. Likewise working in Wireframe.

Having Particles/Hair "On" will bog it down always in realtime if you are using it. And sometimes having "Decals" turned On can slow it down if they are large image files. But if this slowing has only just started then the above may not be the cause as they would all have been evident for some time before now.

You could try a "Reset" of A:M, that often clears out cobwebs. See if that helps.

 

More generally I would also suggest checking your HD formatting with Disk Utility, in your Macs' Utilities folder, once in a while when you have time.

Use the 'Verify Disk' button in the 'Fist Aid' tab.

Minor anomalies on the HD can sometimes show up as a slowing of the OS, excessive memory or CPU use, etc…

[Simon Edmondson]

Mark

Thank you for your reply. I shall try the HD tips now, ( while testing the other on the mini ! ).

regards

simon

[Simon Edmondson]

Just tested it on the Mini with an older version of the model. It seems to be OK. So introduced the latest one. It has immeadiately started slowing up operation. doing a render test anyway and will post the results later. I think its time to kick this model into touch and redo.

Blast !!!

simon

[Simon Edmondson]

Tested the sequence with the first model on another computer.

It may be the inconsistency but nothing seems to go amiss in the eye.

Bert Mini.mov

 

Tried it with the current version of the model and theres a different glitch but hope that is corrected now ( a cp was unassigned in the left pupil )

Bert 04.mov

 

Then tried it with the model Nancy was kind enough to rework for me.

Bert N.mov

 

the pupils penetrate the eyelids but that was down to me.

Again no render glitch.

I do prefer the model with displacement mapping rather than bump, largely I suspect because it masks my modeling.

I think I will have to redo the blooming thing and see if I can escape the glitch.

simon

[NancyGormezano]

Tried it with the current version of the model and theres a different glitch but hope that is corrected now ( a cp was unassigned in the left pupil )

I think I will have to redo the blooming thing and see if I can escape the glitch.

 

Ah ha!

 

I relooked at your original model that you posted (bert003) AND there was a CP unattached in the white part of the left eye - so I attached it to head bone - and displacement seems to not penetrate left eye anymore - so that helps some. I did not remodel the pupil, nor move it in this version - all I did was assign the errant CP. See if this works better for you.

 

However - Remodeling the ears (and obeying A:M "rules" - ie - internal patches are probably causing the blotchy lines) will help get cleaner toon lines

Bert 003CPreattached.mdl

[Simon Edmondson]

Nancy

Thank you very much indeed for your help once again, much appreciated.

I will try that presently.

Pardon my ignorence but, what are the AM rules you mention.

I don't mind remodelling the ears If I get it right this time, but not sure what my error was ?

regards

simon

 

Ps

Did you get a chance to watch Flatworld yet ?

[NancyGormezano]

what are the AM rules you mention.

I don't mind remodelling the ears If I get it right this time, but not sure what my error was ?

 

 

To crudely summarize (in no special order): basic "rules" of proper splining is to try to 1) have good "spline continuity" 2) to avoid internal edges, 3) have normals facing out, 4) have no more than 2 splines cross at a CP and 5) (and there are probably more rules).

One can get away with bad splining, but problems can show up when combined with other A:M features

In the ears in particular, you seem to have extruded the ears from existing patches on the head, rather than splining a "hole" in the area that you wanted the ears, which would create 5 point patches in head (which you would close using the "donut" ring button, and then extruding the new spline ring instead, up and away from the head.

It also appears that once you extruded the patches, you then extruded again and created internal patches in the ears to give it thickness (outer and inner ears). If you had not extruded middle cps, you could have avoided the internal patches. EDIT: It also appears that you do not have spline continuity along the edges of the ears (joining the inner, outer) - so that is maybe also a reason for the blotchy toon lines?)

In your bear, for the ears, you could get away with 1) deleting the current extra patches for the ears, and then 2)create separate groups, unattached to the head patches, (like you did for the eyes, eyelids) and then plunk them down. If you want to have the ears as part of the head, then it would be better to create the spline ring first in the head and extrude that

That was a lotta words - do you need some pictures?

EDIT: also rather than remodel ears - perhaps you might get away with increasing the bias of your toon lines to get less splotchy looking toon lines.

Edited June 14, 2015 by NancyGormezano

[Simon Edmondson]

Nancy

Thank you. I'm just about to have a go at the ears.

Fingers crossed...

regards

simon

[NancyGormezano]

ack - I think displacement is just going to give you headaches - and unfortunately it's impossible to tell where it's going to show up.You may be lucky and problems might not show up.

 

I redid right ear ONLY, to be detached, with "good" splining- (can't say that it helped significantly in toon lines, upping bias made more difference)

 

However, I noticed new funnies - in both 17g/64 and 16b/32 EDIT: and 18m/64AVX/opengl and opengl3- with and without toonlines and with displacement.

 

Problems showed up in the ground plane! but disappearred when I eliminated ALL displacement on model (always)

 

UGH

 

(Added toonline pics: Right ear ONLY is remodeled, toonlines - 3rd image is with width .5, bias 20, 4th image - width .5, bias 100

Edited June 14, 2015 by NancyGormezano

[NancyGormezano]

And here is image with BOTH new ears (continuous splines, normals corrected, no internal patches, not attached to body) in 18m/64 opengl, toon with bias20 and toon bias 100.

 

Bias makes the diff, to me, in getting cleaner toon lines

[Simon Edmondson]

Nancy.

Thank you once again for your help.

I've redone the ears and will render a QT in a bit. Haven't readjusted the pose sliders yet so the blinks and eye movements won't be as they should but hope I got the ears more correct.

I did notice some spline problems on the skull but will leave them until later.

regards

simon

[Simon Edmondson]

Nancy

Pardon me, I missed your new posts. Unfortunately I am just about to go to bed so won't be able to do them justice until tomorrow. Thank you for your kind efforts.

regards

simon

[NancyGormezano]

I missed your new posts. Unfortunately I am just about to go to bed so won't be able to do them justice until tomorrow.

 

 

If you are not having problems with the displacement - then ignore what I posted above. And also ignore the following if it is not relevant:

 

As for me, because I couldn't stop myself, and for my own curiousity and amusement, I went on to add stylized hair to bear (deleted displacement), added hair to outer ear and fattened him up some. If you would like a copy of the hair bear version, let me know.

 

Then I tried different rendering methods. In case you are curious what he might look like with hair and different methods - here ya go (toonline rendered in 17 secs, 1 pass for 1280 x 960; 12 secs for 2 pass - without toonlines)

 

 

[Simon Edmondson]

Nancy

That is outstanding. Thank you.

I'm slightly overwhelmed by them.

This project was supposed to be a test for the characters, ready for the next one. I'm a bit lost in possibilities now.

regards

simon

 

Yes please, I would love a copy of the Hair bear.

Thank you.

[NancyGormezano]

Here is a zip of JUST 1 model file (#3, fattened, with original colors), with hair material and image used for hair emitter. Put hair material, and hair image into same folder as model.

 

I tested above chors in 16b/32 (with fakeao, which I don't think is available on MAC).

 

This morning I tested in 18M/64 opengl (toon render), with and without SSAO (which I think is available on MAC). Here's results from 18M/64. I find the real time display of hair in all versions of 18 (that I have) to be screwy. But seems to render ok, pretty close to 16b.

 

If you eventually want more rendering details - you know where to find me!

TeddyHair.zip

[Simon Edmondson]

Nancy.

Terrific. Thank you very much.

My knowledge of the rendering options is very limited so you you may regret the kind offer !

I may finish this project with the old Bert and save yours for the next one. Spoilt for options now.

regards

simon

[Simon Edmondson]

I tried the model Nancy kindly modified but, a different set of problems arose, one of them rather curious.

 

If a quick render was done on a side view, thtis was the result.

Despite having hair turned n in the render options on the camera and the render properties box

 

If using a camera view, the hair shows up, but not as it should.

The model was imported directly with not mods by me.

Except to turn off some of the controllers in the rig ( Chest, Head, Pelvis ) but that didn't affect the render of the hair, it was like this before.

regards

simon

[NancyGormezano]

If a quick render was done on a side view, thtis was the result.

Despite having hair turned n in the render options on the camera and the render properties box

If using a camera view, the hair shows up, but not as it should.

 

A:M is funny with respect to real time display of hair. It seems to require setting hair ON or OFF in BOTH camera view and any of the front, side, birds eye views. So turn on hair ALSO when in side view (and don't forget to turn off). Just a funny to be aware of. When system seems funny, usually hair is turned on/off in side view and not camera view (or vice versa)

 

As for the render with hair and how it is looking: would need to know ALL your render settings (from camera), in particular multipass?, line width? bias? Please post expanded properties of those settings. I have a feeling your line width or bias might not be right for the bear hair.

 

You have a zillion lights in your scene - so not sure what lighting is actually hitting the bear. I was just using Global Ambiance (100% white, no lights) and toon render. I repeat: NO lights. When I was using lights, there were only 3, and global ambiance was 50%, lights were set as indicated on the images I posted above.

 

Also show me an image of the model in the model window, with hair on. Expand the hair group (furry?) in the model and expand the hair material. Look to see what image is used for the emitter - would need to see all the properties in the model for the hair system, and hair emitter. There were properties that I changed in the model, from the original hair material. Look in both to see the changed properties.

 

Hard to diagnose without seeing what your settings are.