jack daniels

[Pengy]

Hello all: This is another prop for my still. As you can see I've went astray some where on the gradient combiner and the glass material. This is my first stab at both, so please any help you could give would be greatly appreciated. I thought it was an interesting bottle and would like to do it justice.

[robcat2075]

Does that glass bottle have thickness or is it just the outer skin?

[Bill_Y]

Ok,

Here are my suggestions:

 

First you're bottles shape is pretty good; however, there are a few things that look a little off. Where the neck transitions into the base of the bottle there is a fairly sharp edge. This is probably from having to many horizontal splines. You might try removing some and using the bias handles to smooth out the transition. The drip guard seems to transition into the neck a bit to smoothly when compared to the original image. If you reduced the magnitudes of the vertical splines where the drip guard and the neck meet it will help resolve this. You also might want to play with the bias of the drip guard to round it out a bit more. Between the Cap and the drip guard and between the drip guard and where the neck transitions into the body the neck seems to bow outward a little in the real thing. Lastly I have to also ask if you have physical thickness to the bottle, because with out an inside to the bottle the glass will never render correctly. Over all a great start though.

 

As for the materials, if you are using a gradient combiner to simulate glass you are going to want to do a few things. First set the edge threshold to 50 to start (You'll probably want to tweak this a bit once your done). This will cause there to be an even amount of both sub nodes applied to your object. The key to making a glass like look is what is done to these two sub nodes. For the time we'll assume that these subnodes are both plain attributes. For the first attribute under the gradient combiner set the color of the object to black, and the transparency to a very high value around 95+. This makes the viewers angle of the object transparent. You are also going to want to pick an index of refraction to suite your object, and add a whitish specular with a low size and a high intensity. I would start with 1.5 for the index of refraction and adjust it from there once every thing else is done. lastly set the reflection to some where between 0-10. This can be changed later, but even if you don't want reflection in the center of your object you must set it to 0 in order for the rim reflection to occur. I'll explain more when we get to it however. Next you need to set the second attribute under the gradient combiner to black with a much lower transparency value. 50 will probably work. This will cause the rim of your object to be more visible than the center of the object which is what happens with glass. Next you are going to need to set the index of refraction and the specular values to the same as you set it in the first attribute. Note that if you don't set the index of refraction then there will be an odd transition between the two values because they are different and are getting combined (you could play with this if you wanted). Now comes one of the most important and over looked aspects of glass. Set the reflection of the second attribute to some value roughly between 25 and 50. Glass has a fernel effect on it where not only does it become less transparent towards the edges, but it also becomes more reflective. A lot of people don't realize that when using combiners that a value of not set is not always the same as having a value of 0. So to prevent problems if an attribute of any combiners sub nodes are being use, then you need to set the equivalent attribute in the other subnode unless you are aware of what you are doing, and like the effect.

 

As a not the reason I refer to the two attributes below the gradient combiner as sub nodes is that they don't have to be attributes, they could be series of combiners with their own sub nodes. An attribute is only one specific type of sub node.

[Pengy]

Robcat, It's just the outer skin, I understand now this was just 1 in a series of mistakes I've made. Bill, Thank you very much for your in depth answer it will help me a great deal with not only this but future projects I'm sure. Lots of work ahead of me so back to it.

[Pengy]

An update ..tweaked the biases and rounded the drip guard, also added the inside. I just extruded the down and shaped it hope this was the right thing to do. I think I followed Bill's advice accurately but must not have because now all I get is a black render. If I change the 1st attribute to white then I get what looks like glass, but when I try to add jd bottle colour it doesnt work again. Any advice?

[Pengy]

I think I'm getting closer. I followed Bill's instructions then changed the colours to 2 closer to colour of bottle. Then I jacked up the diffuse fall off and I think this did the trick still isn't quite right though..but it is transparent . Any help would be appreciated.

[Bill_Y]

Ah.. I might have botched up my advice.. I didn't have A:M open when I wrote out the process, and so didn't check to see if it was black or white that was needed for transparency in A:M. Having used dozens of different programs over the years you have to deal with slight variances in each.

 

Now your new image is looking much better; however, I think your making a small mistake when thinking about the bottle. You seem to think the bottle is tinted a hue of amberish brown. When in actuality the liquid inside the bottle is causing the hue shift. The bottle it self is a clear glass. So to get the effect you are after you will want to select the inside of your bottle, copy and paste it into the same location as the bottle it self. You can set the location offset an objet pastes to in the options panel in case you didn't know.Next your going to want to cap off the top of this copy so that it is the equivalent of the liquid inside the bottle. This object you are going to give a separate amber colored transparent material. Note that this should not have the fernel effect, as the bottle already should be handling this. This should also have a different index of refraction then the glass did. I would try around 1.6 or 1.7ish to start. Give this a shot and see how it looks.

[Pengy]

no worries Bill I just thought maybe I was going loopy or something I do think the bottle is amber though. To me it looks empty, it (the pic) was from a collectors page. You can see examples of clear bottles here http://www.jdcollectorspage.com/regular4.html Would be easier to make it clear glass but I'm not sure. What is everyone's opinion?

[Pengy]

An update render,this 1 with just glass with whiskey material inside. Still have to work on whiskey but that should be fun research

[Pengy]

okay,after a couple days of in depth research into the subject of liquor Here's another render with the liquor material and label in place. I'm having a problem with the label. For some reason the white lettering is transparent. I apllied it to just the outer surface of the bottle, it's got an alpha channel out of ps.Anyone have any suggestions please

[Zaryin]

It's looking good so far. I think the top of the bottle should be a little rounder though. Did you check to make sure that the trans color for the Image is set to "Not Set"?

[Pengy]

Thanks Zaryin: The decal has an alpha channel and when I click on its properties I can't see a place to not set the trans like I usually do.

[Zaryin]

If the alpha was made in Photoshop. Go to the Channels area by the Layers. Click on the Alpha1 and make sure that everything that you want to show up as white in the decal is black in that channel.

[JavierP]

Hi Pengy,

I recieved your message, but I decided to reply here so that anyone else that is interested can read the answer also. You asked if the liquor image I made used AM native materials.

Actually, all the surfaces in that image are procedural, with the exception of the text on the label. The text is just an image with an alpha channel. It is important to note that at least 85% of the effect in that image is due to the lighting setup. For example I think that I had at least 4 lights shining on the liquid itself, controlled by light lists. I think that there are about 16 or so lights in the whole choreography altogether, with many lists. Intensities range from anywhere between 1500 and 10 depending on what I was using it for. It is really difficult to give you a short answer to your question, without writing a comprehensive tutorial, and unfortunately I don't have the time to do that. However, if you have any specific questions feel free to ask.

 

Javier

[Pengy]

Thank you very much for replying. Zaryin: I tried your advice and no joy, I discussed it on the Wed nite chat and it seems like this is a recognized problem. The effect has kind of grown on me and I think I'll take some artistic license and live with it. Javier: I think your whiskey image is an excellent example of the photorealistic capabilities of A:M. I'm glad to hear its all native materials. The lighting aspect is a little daunting to me right now along with alot of other things. I think gaining some knowledge on lighting will be a great learning experience and will help on future projects.

[Pengy]

1st let me say thank you to everyone for the advice. I think the time has come to call it a job done and move on to the next prop (shot glass of course ) I added a cork like in the original pic and removed the lid, I don't think if it was being drank the cap would be put on. It turned out much better than I had hoped because of the excellent help I got. Hopefully I can get the liquor to look much better once the chor scene is lit. Thanks again

[JavierP]

Hi Pengy,

Just a couple quick suggestions before you move on to the other model; did you decal the labe directly onto the bottle? IF you did, then that is why it is becoming transparent in the render. After all it is an image applied to an already transparent model. To fix your problem, all you have to do is make some new patches and place them where the label would be and apply the decal to the new group with no transparency. The alpha channel will make sure that the label will be the right shape, and it will be opaque like a real label.

My second suggestion would be to get rid of that 'default' lighting. Even if it is just one kleig shining on the bottle it would be a good start. Complex lighting always starts with one light, and grows one light at a time . Hope this helps.

 

Javier

[Pengy]

Thanks again Javier, I had wondered about the transparency of the bottle effecting it but thought na thats too simple..that'll teach me The bottle is going to be part of a larger still I just rendered it like this in order to show it. Should I light it now by itself even though other light sources may be in the full scene? Also another question I had about the liquor part was... Did you model the liquor as one unit or did you simply extrude a horizontal spline across from the inside of the bottle and colour that?

[Pengy]

Javier: I don't know if I'm doing something wrong in photoshop or what, but I've tried both making completely new patches and copy and pasting patches from the bottle, removing the glass texture then applying the decal. The white of the underlying geometry still shows. Please help

[JavierP]

What does your alpha channel look like? I have a feeling that is what your problem is. Can you oost a pic of just the alpha?

 

Javier

[Pengy]

Here is what the alpha looks like.

[Bill_Y]

You need a transparency map in addition to your color map. This will prevent your decal from accepting the transparency from the materials on the bottle.

[Pengy]

Badda boom badda bing that did it I was getting weird artifacts around my decal..it look like I had cut it with scissors and pasted it on there,so I made my own and all is well with the world. Thank you again Bill,you should really make a tutorial on these material things..hehe So, here is the new bottle with just a kleig light to start per Javier's suggestions. Man if I didn't drink before I think this model would drive me there...me and my bright ideas Thanks again!

[Bill_Y]

Yeah, I knew you were going to get weird artifacts around the decal given your prior image. There currently is a problem with alpha channels on transparency maps only trimming the areas that are pure black. You could have made a gray scale image and done a semi-hack to make the black look more like the underling material, but the problem will go away all together when the alpha problem gets fixed. (And yes for any one wondering the problem was reported with a sample project)

[Pengy]

I've moved on from the bottle for now and started working on the shot glass. Thanks to lessons learned on the bottle the outside went smoothly(just used same material(momma didn't raise no fool ) Now the snag I've hit is in modeling and materialing the bottom bowl and part of the shot glass. As many of you probably know they have a glass that is more dense than the rest of the glass. Here is my attempt at the glass with just the bowl. Any help would be most appreciated.

[Pengy]

Still have some more work to do on the glass but I figured out the problem. Here's all 3 of my props so far.

[Rodney]

Pengy,

 

Nice work thus far!

 

I'm no lush > *hic*

 

Keep it up!

[Pengy]

About the scale, yes the head is that big. In the Jan 18 edition of the New England Journal of Medicine there was a study from Cedar Sinai that suggested while excessive alcohol consumption not only had the possiblility of increasing the size of one's liver there was also documented double blind studies that indicated it could also increase size of cranium.(and if u buy that let's talk about buying this bridge I happen to own in New York ...j/k please twas joke, no e-mails. Rodney thanks for that. Bill. I was wondering if it isn't too complex if you could explain the hack to get rid of the alpha artifacts. There is a nice hawk outline etched in the pic I found and thought it would be a cool touch. I could fake it in PS or make it out of patches if the hack is too difficult.

[Pengy]

An update to the props for my still. I still have to work on the materials but thought I'd post what I've got so far.As always any crits are welcome.

[Bill_Y]

Just to let you know the Alpha channel issue was fixed in v11beta8. So if you want to get the nooks and crannies on the edge of your J.D. label it shouldn't be a problem any more.

[Pengy]

Thanks Bill still need to round up the $$ for upgrade. Here's all the props assembled, The lighting is just temp. Made a few changes in cig pack and ashtray and liquor colour. Any C&C would be most appreciated before I move on to learning lighting.

[Pengy]

Funny how much of a difference a few shadows make.

[Pengy]

A little further along on the lighting path. I'm trying to keep it darker and have it look like a neon blue glow at the back of table. Not sure how to accomplish this. Please any suggestions or critics are most welcome.

[heyvern]

You know what I am dieing to see?

 

Some very subtle deformations of the paper poster. Whenever I do paper stuff like that I always put in enough splines so I can put in very slight surface changes. And also a slight bump map might be nice. It really adds to the realism. It just breaks up the "perfectness" of the image.

 

I love where you are going with the lighting. Nice mood.

 

Vernon Zehr

[Pengy]

Thanks for the suggestion and kind words Vern. Parlo suggested roughly the same thing. To try and make it fit in better with the environment, I think you're both right and it's definately my first thing to do. I was also wondering about the syringe..does it seem realistic enough?...Does it need more reflection to stand out? Any thoughts?

[littleandy]

I really like your setup! Can't wait for more updates

 

I do think messing with the specularity might do more to make the syringe stand out than reflections...

 

Same thing with the bowler/fedora hat. Maybe some light specularity with a fairly large spec size?

(Just IMHO)

 

Awesome work though.

 

-Andrew

[Pengy]

Thank you littleandy I wondered if the syringe was "washed" out a bit by the poster. I was hoping the derby hat would stand out a bit more and catch some bounce off the back blue light still loads of tweaking to do with that.

[mediaho]

Amazing strides since your first post of the bottle! My only issues are with the clenliness of the poster that some people already pointed out and the composition. It looks like everything was carefully placed in such a way as to look random -- kind of like a faked crime scene. The historical accuracy seems okay to my untrained eye although I'm not sure if that was a period typeface. Regardless, type was set by hand back then so there should be imperfections in the placement of the letters as well as ink anomolies.

 

But again, amazing improvement.

[Pengy]

Thank you for the reply mediaho. All the strides have been because of all the help I've received here on the forum. Most times it pays to suck it up and show your work there always seems to be a multitude of great suggestions. And on that note here is my latest update. I tried with my limited knowledge to follow all your suggestions. Roughed up the paper, sepia toned the pictures increased the specularity on the hypo and derby. I also tried to unorganize the randomness Although I wasn't quite sure what you meant by that. I was thinking of adding a red back light as most neon would have more than just one colour.

[heyvern]

I am going to be a pain in the arse here....

 

The papers edge facing us, the viewers, seems to be floating. I know this could happen but it looks odd. Maybe if you "bent" parts of it to touch the bar surface, or something to break up that perfectly straight floating edge shadow. The edge over the end of the bar as well would make some contact with the bar surface.

 

It is these little details that cause perfectionist, anal retentives, like myself, to sit up all night worrying, unable to sleep because the paper doesn't touch the bar!

Can't he see it? What is wrong with the world? I am getting old and will die soon! I have done nothing constructive in my life! I have no purpose...

 

...Sorry, those are the other things that keep my up at night as well.

 

As for the syringe... it looks fine to me, although I wouldn't leave mine out like that. It looks fairly clean and I am sure some other addict would steal it for sure...

 

Have I said too much?

 

Vernon "Not sleeping tonight!" Zehr

[heyvern]

Me again!

 

I have this really really old image I did in a.. uh... another 3D application that hasn't even been installed on my machine for many years.

 

I only post it here because of the similarities in concept and if possible for inspiration... great minds think alike!

 

WARNING! I AM ASHAMED! THIS IMAGE WAS NOT DONE WITH AM! PLEASE DO NOT APPRECIATE IT!

 

http://www.lowrestv.com/lowres/portfolio/images/smoke.jpg

 

I plan to redo it in AM at some point because it is still one of my favorite peices and I know that I could make it even better with AM, my favorite 3D application. I still have all of the texture maps, but the original 3D files have long since died an untimely death in several hard drive crashes. This is the only remaining evidence.

 

Vernon "I love ONLY AM" Zehr

Vernon "AM is my religion now!" Zehr

[littleandy]

Nice work on the syringe!

 

I didn't really notice a lot of difference in the specularity on the hat though... Here's a photo of one- might be useful.

 

I know it's brown, but the specularity is basically the same for brown and black hats. And it gets more intense on the band that runs around the brim. or whatever that part of the hat is called that the band runs around. plus the fuzziness gives it a kind of soft look. it seems at the moment that the hat in the render is just absorbing all the light...

 

And this is going to seem odd but I really like the feather. Can you show a wireframe of that?

 

-Andrew

[Pengy]

Thank you guys. Not a pain in the arse at all Vern this is exactly the kind of stuff I was looking for. I'm sure you've experienced it after a while with a project you can't see it anymore Interesting about the two images being similar..you had more guts than me though I didn't even attempt to put hands in mine. I'll fix the paper pdq wouldn't want to interfere with your sleep. One thing though, I wanted this to be a scene in a lonely motel room but I guess it came across more as a bar, ah well what ever works Andy I added a higher spec but it made the hat look rubbery, any suggestions? I will post a wire of the feather, was quite simple to do actually.

[Pengy]

Here's the wire of the feathers. Just 2 patches and messed with shape and hair setting until I got what I wanted.

[Gerry]

Pengy - Great work, great thread, I'm really enjoying this! Not going to crit, since everything I would have said has already been covered.

 

Besides, all these others guys are so FUSSY!

[Pengy]

Gerry-Thanks it's been interesting for me too thank goodness otherwise I would've bailed the 1st time I tried to make glass I can't say enough how much I appreciate everyone's help,I trully learned alot.Hopefully I'll remember some of it. Here is the latest render with fixes to all of the latest suggestions. I also added the red back light and turned cast shadows on for the two coloured backlights...I like the effect. I still have to add the smoke but have a question concerning this. Is it easier to just use photoshop to accomplish this, or, should I take a stab at using particles(which I have no idea about)?Other than that I think I will move it into the showcase forum and call it done, for I fear I've exhausted my knowledge of lighting. Any last minute suggestions would be greatly welcomed.