Teddy Bear

[Simon Edmondson]

As a break from the animating, thought it might be time to make a teddy Bear for the long term project underway. Modelling is not a strong skill and materials even less so. In that light can anyone suggest suitable material properties, or where to look for them, to use for the Teddy? Any help gratefully received.

He will end up being tested on the Unicycle though !

regards

simon

[Ilidrake]

Hair particles work. Takes a bit of playing around but the effect can be quite nice.

[Simon Edmondson]

Hair particles work. Takes a bit of playing around but the effect can be quite nice.

 

 

Lloyd

Thank you for your reply. I have only had very mixed results with hair particles in the past, it might be time to try again, but the figure will be moving quite rapidly later and that was what cause the problems before. When the character jumped back because of a thunderclap ( this was about 18 months ago ) the head came through the hair before the collision could catch up with it.

H'mm much to decide here.

Regards

simon

[robcat2075]

Teddy bear hair should probably have a very low stretch setting and be short. A bitmap image for the hair that looked like a matted tuft might be usedful here.

[robcat2075]

I'll note that any hair solution is going to be a slow-rendering one and you may wish to pursue some other appearance for the bear just on that score.

[pixelplucker]

Been a while since I posted anything, try this texture out, you can change the thickness and scale to match your model size.

 

If you change the color you will want to use the same values for both textures. One is the shag and other is the base. You should use both.

TeddyBearTexture.zip

[robcat2075]

Been a while since I posted anything, try this texture out, you can change the thickness and scale to match your model size.

 

If you change the color you will want to use the same values for both textures. One is the shag and other is the base. You should use both.

 

that is very impressive!

[Simon Edmondson]

Been a while since I posted anything, try this texture out, you can change the thickness and scale to match your model size.

 

If you change the color you will want to use the same values for both textures. One is the shag and other is the base. You should use both.

 

 

Lloyd

Thank you very much indeed for your help. Much appreciated.

regards

simon

[pixelplucker]

Thanks even though my name isn't Lloyd LOL

[Simon Edmondson]

Thanks even though my name isn't Lloyd LOL

 

 

Ken

Pardon me.My mistake.

Thank you very much for your help. I hope to try that today.

regards

simon

[pixelplucker]

The one to thank is Johnl3d he mentioned how to access the Shag plug-in by holding down Shift key when choosing the hair plug.

Post is here in this thread:

http://www.hash.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=45797

 

Hope it works out for you.

[Simon Edmondson]

Curious problem started last night. Thought it might have been me but it has continued today.

 

The default material property seems to have changed from white to near black.

Modelling the head for the bear, I was making the eyes expecting them to come out white, as normal, only to find this,

 

.

 

The item selected in the PWS is the dark oval shape, screen left of the main head. As you can see from the properties window, no values are set. It was setup directly without copying or pasting from another model, yet it comes out like that.

Any idea anybody ?

regards

simon

 

 

PS

Pardon.

Belated thanks to John3D for pointing out the shag material.

 

 

Edit

Even more curious is that, when the model is copy and pasted into another window, they come out white...

 

[robcat2075]

I'm not sure of the cause.

 

For now, explicitly set the color for any group that needs to have a color.

[Simon Edmondson]

I'm not sure of the cause.

 

For now, explicitly set the color for any group that needs to have a color.

 

 

Robert

Thank you for your reply.

I copied and pasted it into the main model window and it reverted to standard ( not dark grey ) and seemed to be OK.

I've been having a few odd things happen recently and had started to wonder if I had picked up a virus but, apparently, such things are still non existent in the world of Mac, or so my friend assures me.

regards

simon

 

Ps

This was the model that was causing the problem

B_Head_03.mdl

[NancyGormezano]

The default material property seems to have changed from white to near black.

Modelling the head for the bear, I was making the eyes expecting them to come out white, as normal, only to find this,

 

 

The item selected in the PWS is the dark oval shape, screen left of the main head. As you can see from the properties window, no values are set. It was setup directly without copying or pasting from another model, yet it comes out like that.

Any idea anybody ?

 

 

Edit

Even more curious is that, when the model is copy and pasted into another window, they come out white...

 

The dark oval shape is black because the diffuse color in the surface properties for your head model is black - somehow you changed it from the default of white.

 

When you pasted the model into another model it became white because the default for that model was still white.

 

The surface properties of any group of patches that doesn't get explicitly changed/set picks up the properties from the surface properties of the model

[NancyGormezano]

Also - I am going to suggest that for way way way faster rendering speeds (way faster than shag material or hair material) that you investigate using a decal (cylindrically mapped probably) covering the entire surface of your model (fur parts only), with a stylized image of fur, or whatever you want. Then experiment with using the same image for setting the bump and displacement properties as well. Then experiment with the displacement percentages, as well as the bump percentages. Then experiment with different images for different looks.

 

Here is my quick test on a modified "Panda on Fire" model (from Hash 2001 CD) - with a comparison to show differences between 100 and 200 % displacement, using an image that is somebody's blonde hair (don't know where I got it). Tweek to taste, ad nauseum.

[Rodney]

Awesome Character Nancy!

 

That guy would make a great A:M Mascot.

 

(Sorry... press on. Press on!)

[Simon Edmondson]

Also - I am going to suggest that for way way way faster rendering speeds (way faster than shag material or hair material) that you investigate using a decal (cylindrically mapped probably) covering the entire surface of your model (fur parts only), with a stylized image of fur, or whatever you want. Then experiment with using the same image for setting the bump and displacement properties as well. Then experiment with the displacement percentages, as well as the bump percentages. Then experiment with different images for different looks.

 

Here is my quick test on a modified "Panda on Fire" model (from Hash 2001 CD) - with a comparison to show differences between 100 and 200 % displacement, using an image that is somebody's blonde hair (don't know where I got it). Tweek to taste, ad nauseum.

 

 

Nancy

Thank you for both replies and particularly for the advice regarding the fur/shag. I was just indulging in displacement activities here trying to decide what to do about that. Most welcome.

Regards

simon

 

 

Ps

On a completely different subjectIt has been a long term ambition to see the Northern Lights. I missed them two nights ago because I was working on the bear. To rub that in, a friend posted this picture, taken on Thursday in Northern Ireland. You might like it ?

 

[Simon Edmondson]

Haven't decided what to do with the hands and ears yet but this is it mapped with the map Ken posted. Couldn't get the cylindrical mapping to work without smearing the map at the extremes so have done it with a lot of planar stamps instead. Might try a shag setting tomorrow as well.

Any feedback welcome.

regards

simon

 

Edit

 

Forgot to put the displacement map in.

This is it in shaded mode. Like the result but not the render. Working on that.

 

 

 

Trying to get it to render like the shaded mode.

The middle section is rendered

the outer shaded in the model window.

 

[NancyGormezano]

This is it in shaded mode. Like the result but not the render.

 

Trying to get it to render like the shaded mode.

The middle section is rendered

the outer shaded in the model window.

 

Your model is definitely getting there!

 

However, your model is going to look different rendered in the chor depending on your lighting setup. If you want it lighter, or exactly equal to the coloring of the image used for the decal than you could make your models options property/Flat shaded = ON. (in the shortcut to model). You are really going to have to play in the chor to see how things will really look.

 

Also - Do not forget about using SSAO (screen space ambient occlusion) - you will get much better definition of the displacement's furry goodness. I am assuming you are working in vers 18?

 

First example is a comparison of without SSAO, then with SSAO. Same lighting setups (global ambiance = color/white=75%, 1 orange klieg 100% with 60% dark z buffered shadows, default blue sun 45%, default white sun 10%)

 

2nd example is same models with flat shaded = ON, with SSAO ON and same lighting setup.

 

3rd image is flatshaded No SSAO. Note that the coloring on each bear is not influenced by the lighting setup.

 

EDIT: so that you can see the difference, uploaded a 4th image,screen capture of one of the models in the modeling window - not so hot using that lighting.

Edited March 2, 2014 by NancyGormezano

[robcat2075]

I've never seen Northern lights even when I lived in Minnesota.

[NancyGormezano]

I've never seen Northern lights even when I lived in Minnesota.

 

Yes forgot to say - great photo of Northern Lights! but it needed some Irish Polar bears

[Simon Edmondson]

I've never seen Northern lights even when I lived in Minnesota.

 

Yes forgot to say - great photo of Northern Lights! but it needed some Irish Polar bears

 

 

Nancy

Thank you very much indeed for your two replies and your help. I will pursue that today in the chor. I'm working in V17g. Perhaps I should upgrade now.

 

The Irish Polar bears are wonderful. You could make a whole series based around them.

 

I've been up to Scotland twice trying to see the lights, and missed them each time. The irony is that, 6 months later ( both times ) they came here, and I missed them then too, because I was sitting in front of the computer working away. We hope to try again this year. They don't often come this far south its just because of the climatic conditions and the sun is at a peak level of activity. Apologies for sounding like an Aurora anorak.

regards

simon

 

 

edit

 

Bert with Fur on hands and awaiting rig.

Just noticed some map stretching on thumbs so will address that later. Thanks to Nancy for her help.

[Simon Edmondson]

Spent Sunday applying the maps to the model. 74 stamps ( not including the ones deleted and re done ). Thought a walk test was in order,

 

Bert_Test.mov

 

Numerous faults were apparent so spent today reinstalling the rig ( twice ) and lost the stamps in the process, this is it before smart skin or cp weighting ( warning contains nudity ! )

 

Bert_The_Streaker.mov

 

Going to do the mesh adjustments tomorrow then back to the mapping, ( sigh ).

simon

 

The moral to this tale ?

Map out the workflow properly...

[markw]

Hi Simon

Ouch 74 stamps!

Have a look at this test .prj. The ball was 1 spherical applied decal with the second stamp set to Displacement.

Thom is using patch images. Basically select everything that needs the fur image in the model, right click and choose add image, thats it.

Once for Colour and again for Displacement.

On a side note, I've taken to resisting the temptation to see my models all textured up and looking their finest until the very last thing before final rendering. Sometimes, even the set lighting can necessitate a rethink about a texture.

FurTest.zip

[Simon Edmondson]

Hi Simon

Ouch 74 stamps!

Have a look at this test .prj. The ball was 1 spherical applied decal with the second stamp set to Displacement.

Thom is using patch images. Basically select everything that needs the fur image in the model, right click and choose add image, thats it.

Once for Colour and again for Displacement.

On a side note, I've taken to resisting the temptation to see my models all textured up and looking their finest until the very last thing before final rendering. Sometimes, even the set lighting can necessitate a rethink about a texture.

 

Mark

Thank you very much for your help, much appreciated. I shall try that tomorrow.

I did some very rudimentary weighting with the stick figure Blockhead models but this will have to be several steps on from that.

74 is the number that survived until the end my guess is that there were nearer a 100 in total. The most difficult bit was keeping track of them all and sorting out the naming convention and sequencing.

Onwards and upwards.

regards

simon

 

 

Edit

WOW !!!!!!!

That makes it so much easier.

I wasn't looking forward to having to redo that lot agin. Thank you.

[Simon Edmondson]

This is entirely trivial, for which apologies.

 

I was so exited by the prospect Mark explained that I couldn't wait to try it so, here it is with a curious result, one that might be worth exploring further.

 

This is the same walk cycle and model as before, but rendered without Toon, using the method Mark suggested.

Bert_Test.mov

 

This is exactly the same setup but with Toon render turned on

Bert_Test_Toon.mov

 

Almost makes him look malign...

 

"You lookin fer trouble? You came to the right place"

 

Best go to sleep now.

Thank you once again Mark.

regards

simon

[pixelplucker]

Texture looks like the tv lost it's station, is that the hair plugin?

Maybe just use a plain shader, try the teddybear base material without adding the shag.

Will render really fast. You can tweak the size of the bump on it. I don't think you need much detail for a surface if it's rendered small like that or if your using a toon shader. Toon shading you don't need any real texture at all, just a flat color.

[Simon Edmondson]

Texture looks like the tv lost it's station, is that the hair plugin?

Maybe just use a plain shader, try the teddybear base material without adding the shag.

Will render really fast. You can tweak the size of the bump on it. I don't think you need much detail for a surface if it's rendered small like that or if your using a toon shader. Toon shading you don't need any real texture at all, just a flat color.

 

 

Ken

Thank you for your reply and help. That was just working with the texture maps, no hair or shag material tried as yet. The one with the busy surface was done with the standard render and the other was with a Toon render . Both had the same settings and texture maps applied, only the render mode was different. I'm spending today trying to sort out some cp weighting then will return to the surface tomorrow.

 

Haven't tested it yet but, wondered if the busy surface was caused by the resolution of the map used. I had expended the one you kindly posted out to about 1000x1000, Its quite large with a lot of detail?

regards

simon

[NancyGormezano]

Wondered if the busy surface was caused by the resolution of the map used. I had expended the one you kindly posted out to about 1000x1000, Its quite large with a lot of detail?

 

Yes. ANY excessive small resolved detail (renders to few # of pixels) has the potential to look noisy (busy) when it starts to move. Doing stills is quite different from animation. For animation, you are best to go with images that are less busy. ie gradual changing differences in value - pixel to pixel

 

Enlarging an image to 1000x1000 will not create new detail (actually will create less dense detail as same section of image will now occupy more pixels). The fact that the image had a lot of detail to begin with, ie rapidly changing values in adjacent pixels, is what is causing the scintillation. The size of the image used for the map doesn't make much difference.

 

As an experiment, you might try "blurring" your displacement image (the 1000 x 1000 image), and using that for your decal - and see how that reduces the noisy look. Try different amounts of blurriness (small, medium, lots).

 

EDIT: forgot to say: it is probably the image that is used for color that is causing most of the perceived scintillation - try using a more gradually variegated colored image.

 

74 stamps? yikes! perhaps you need to investigate "flattening and planar mapped applied versus cylindrical applied versus one image/patch (which you changed to)" Using a very noisy image for a patch (one/patch) is also a cause of introducing scintillation.

 

Don't sweat the small stuff in terms of decal/image stretching. Again animation is different from still imagery. When the model moves - no matter what method you used: the decal, image will stretch - just the nature of patch geometry, as the patches themselves are stretching and thus their displacement and pattern will stretch.

Edited March 6, 2014 by NancyGormezano

[Simon Edmondson]

Nancy

Thank you for your reply and help.

I resized the map and the resolution thereof from that used for all the stamps on the earlier version.

 

This was the result second time,

 

Bert_Walk.mov.

 

It still needs some adjusting but is less noisy than before.

The problem was caused by having expanded the original map that Ken kindly supplied. It was at 460 x 413 but had a large background area around the main image.. That was copied and pasted multiple times into the 1000x 1000 map used for the stamps. That was done to try to avoid repetitive pattern becoming apparent. The map was bigger than the model, and sections of it were applied to small areas on it.

 

When Mark suggested a way to avoid all the stamps the oversized map was used and the detail caused the noise problem. Went back to the original with this amusing result. Bert looks a bit like one of those Magritte painting with the clouds going over the figure.. Hadn't realised until then that it was applying the whole map to each patch. So went back and resized it and tried again, taking up your suggestion of blur at the same time. Still needs some work but a better result ?

regards

simon

[NancyGormezano]

This was the result second time,

 

Bert_Walk.mov.

 

So went back and resized it and tried again, taking up your suggestion of blur at the same time. Still needs some work but a better result ?

 

definitely better!

[Simon Edmondson]

...

definitely better!

 

 

Nancy

Thank you.

I think I know what to do next so will press on with that. This is a larger res version with a bump map added. He looks like the creature from the Black laggon in this.

fun.

regards

simonBert_Walk.mov

[Simon Edmondson]

Working away on the textures, there are now several versions. However, have encountered a curious effect. When the bump map is turned up some of the patches seem to show up in the render.

 

This is it at 0%

 

at 10%

 

 

Fifty %

 

 

Two Hundred %

 

 

The only settings that have changed are the bump map settings. Everything else is the same.

Does anyone have any ideas as to what might cause such an effect an, most importantly, how to cure it?

regards

simon

 

Edit

May have accidentally stumbled across the reason (?)

 

Mapping.zip

 

It seems to be caused by the order and direction in which the Cp's are extruded .

Model one was expanded in different directions before the final set up .

 

Model Two was extruded in one direction,

When rendered the results are notably different?

[Rodney]

It looks like inverted normals to me although patches with hooks might also be effecting the surface of those patches.

A bit less likely would be five point patches.

 

In considering your general approach to splines/patches I'm leaning toward non-continuous splines (i.e. where you might have intersected more than two splines thereby creating illegal patches).

A:M doesn't know what to do with that sort of thing so it just does the best that it can.

 

Can you post a wireframe view from a same/simliar angle?

[Simon Edmondson]

It looks like inverted normals to me although patches with hooks might also be effecting the surface of those patches.

A bit less likely would be five point patches.

 

 

Rodney

Thank you for your reply. I wondered about that but then tried something else which might be the cause. I postef the file in the message above.

regards

simon

[robcat2075]

I have found that when using patch images on a whole model that some do indeed get inverted somehow in their appearance even if the normals on the patches are not inverted themselves.

 

Test your image on simple case of a cylinder to start.

[markw]

He's looking good Simon!

My first thought looking at your Mapping .prj are:

Do you need that Bump image/group? The Displacement image/group is already giving the surface the illusion of a 3D texture.

In that test project I didn't get any of those small square artifacts you show on the actual model?

However I did see that not all the patch images were on the same rotation. This dose often happen with them, not sure why?, but easy to fix. See first screenshot.

The second screenshot is after rotating the left hand row of patch images and removing the Bump image/group. And the Displacement image is at the default 100%.

 

(Note to you lucky Windows users, yes that first screenshot is how images often display themselves in real time to us Mac owners )

[Simon Edmondson]

He's looking good Simon!

My first thought looking at your Mapping .prj are:

Do you need that Bump image/group? The Displacement image/group is already giving the surface the illusion of a 3D texture.

In that test project I didn't get any of those small square artifacts you show on the actual model?

However I did see that not all the patch images were on the same rotation. This dose often happen with them, not sure why?, but easy to fix. See first screenshot.

The second screenshot is after rotating the left hand row of patch images and removing the Bump image/group. And the Displacement image is at the default 100%.

 

(Note to you lucky Windows users, yes that first screenshot is how images often display themselves in real time to us Mac owners )

 

 

Mark

Once again thank you very much indeed for your help,tis much appreciated.

How did you get the first screen shot that showed the orientation of the images ? The process looks straightforward enough, albeit rather involved in having to check each patch. I marvel at your knowledge of such things, way beyond me.

Thanks again.

regards

simon

[robcat2075]

If the original map is not obvious in it's orientation you can temporarily substitute a map with an arrow or something on it.

[Simon Edmondson]

If the original map is not obvious in it's orientation you can temporarily substitute a map with an arrow or something on it.

 

Robert

Thank you. a fab idea.

regards

simon

 

Edit

 

Clear outline of the problem.

Thank you Robert.

 

[Rodney]

(edit: what Robert said!)

 

One way you can determine the orientation of a patch/patch image is to temporarily add an image that points the direction out in an obvious way. Such as this red arrow image:

 

 

When using Patch Images there are a couple things to watch out for (here's one):

 

- Do you need more than one group on the same area to apply the patch image(s)?

Note that it may be best to apply a second image (Bump, Ambiance, etc.) to the same group by Right Clicking the image container and selecting Add Image (as opposed to creating a new Group for each Patch Image).

This will help later for organization in reducing the number of Groups you have and have no idea what purpose they serve at a glance.

 

Added: The primary reason to add a new group for Patch Images is to drive different surface settings via that new Group beyond the surface settings of the original Group you've applied an image to.

[robcat2075]

Clear outline of the problem.

 

 

Now, looking at that, you can use the "Patch Group Mode" tool to click on any patch to select it and then >Rotate Images to turn it 90° until it faces the way you want.

 

 

But first... how did you do the image substitution?

[Simon Edmondson]

Clear outline of the problem.

 

 

Now, looking at that, you can use the "Patch Group Mode" tool to click on any patch to select it and then >Rotate Images to turn it 90° until it faces the way you want.

 

 

But first... how did you do the image substitution?

 

 

Robert

I wasn't aware of "Patch group Mode" but, I did group them by using the shift key and rotated them like that ( still plugging away at it )

 

The image substitution was straight forward. I just substituted the arrow under properties so that all the patches used it rather than the earlier texture. I keep going back to it to see how it looks. If I get it done tonight I will post a pic.

regards

simon

[Simon Edmondson]

(edit: what Robert said!)

 

One way you can determine the orientation of a patch/patch image is to temporarily add an image that points the direction out in an obvious way. Such as this red arrow image:

 

 

When using Patch Images there are a couple things to watch out for (here's one):

 

- Do you need more than one group on the same area to apply the patch image(s)?

Note that it may be best to apply a second image (Bump, Ambiance, etc.) to the same group by Right Clicking the image container and selecting Add Image (as opposed to creating a new Group for each Patch Image).

This will help later for organization in reducing the number of Groups you have and have no idea what purpose they serve at a glance.

 

Added: The primary reason to add a new group for Patch Images is to drive different surface settings via that new Group beyond the surface settings of the original Group you've applied an image to.

 

Rodney

Thank you for your reply and help. I'm plugging away at it and will try to post a shot later, I'm ( very ) slowly learning my lessons and try to keep all groups named as I'm going along. The real tedious bit when doing all the stamps earlier was keeping track of what each one was, "Right Toes Upper", for example covered two patches. Fun was not the first thought !

regards

simon

[robcat2075]

The advantage of the Patch Mode tool is that you can easily select a patch without having to loop around all its CPs.

[Simon Edmondson]

Taking longer than expected as they keep changing after they have been reset.

These were all oriented correctly but, when checked afterwards, some had changed. I will try to complete tomorrow.

Thank you to everyone for their help.

regards

simon

[Simon Edmondson]

Spent the morning getting them all correctly aligned only to have them go askew afterwards.

 

This is what they looked like

 

I then unhid ( sp ? ) the other patches, only for this to have happened before I could test it, 30 seconds later,

 

 

Rather frustrating.

 

Is this a problem other people have encountered and, if so, how did they fix it ?

regards

Simon

[pixelplucker]

I have had normals change on patches after save in version 16. I think the cause happens if you have adjacent 5 point patches. I could be wrong on that.

Anyone else experience that?

[Simon Edmondson]

I have had normals change on patches after save in version 16. I think the cause happens if you have adjacent 5 point patches. I could be wrong on that.

Anyone else experience that?

 

 

Ken

Thank you for your reply.

I'm working in V17g on a Mac ( pardon for not mentioning that before ). Just spent 20 mins arranging the direction on the left leg to match the right, only to have them revert wne I changed view ports, grrrrrrrrrrrr . O'm going to try copying the leg from one side to the other to see if I can get around it that way. It is very aggravating !

regards

simon