How Much Does it Cost?

[Darkwing]

I'm just inquiring a little as I'm just doing some basic fact-finding. Say I wanted to hire somebody to work on a project, where teams of course are small, that person would undoubtedly be doing a lot of various tasks (modeling, rigging, animating, the works). Now some considerations to keep in mind is that I'm a poor university student. Other things are that in an ideal world, the work would last for about a year as it would be a web-series, say 10 episodes or something. How much would any of you guys (roughly) charge. Just give off a round figure. Also I'm not sure what a better paying model would be, pay for a span of time and all your services in that time (undoubtedly that person(s) would be doing a lot more work than getting paid for.) Or would a pay by model or by minute animated etc type thing work better do you think? But yeah, I'm just kind of curious what kind of numbers I (or maybe anyone for that matter) might be looking at.

 

And don't worry about "hurting my feelings" or anything. I'm pretty sure any price anyone quotes will realistically be too high for anyone like me to pay, but I'm curious nonetheless

[Rodney]

I hope your query will generate some interest and responses as people often talk about wanting to work in the CG industry or work with other people in animation but don't always know how to proceed. If nothing else it should make you more knowledgeable and marketable when/if you work with other people.

 

Here is a restating of the requirements in your query:

 

A survey of hiring people to work on a project

 

People: Small team(s)

 

Duties: Each person would undoubtedly be doing a lot of various tasks (modeling, rigging, animating (the works)

 

Duration. The work would last about a year as it would be a web-series, say 10 episodes

 

Considerations:

Contractor. Who the contractor is and their ability to pay: [You've noted that you are a poor university student with no real ability to pay]

[Freelancer(s): The query seeks to define this area]

 

Salary. How much would be charged? (round figure)

 

Pay methods:

- Pay for a span of time and all services in that time

- Pay by model or by minute of animation

- Some other method

 

Determination of how much maneuvering room the quoted prices will allow the contractor and the *freelancer?

 

 

*Note: The term Freelancer is chosen here ony because of the temporary and terminal nature of the contract.

I am a little curious about what you would define the 'it' in the topic title as.

[Darkwing]

It's more of an incomplete sentence than anything. "How much does it cost for an Animation:Master animator" could be a more appropriate way of stating it (except more than just animation would undoubtedly be involved.)

 

Also perhaps it is good to know my full intentions which is that I'm contemplating a project, however there is no earthly way I could do it all on my own, so I'm kind of scouting the waters to see if it might be viable or not. But on top of that, I'm also just generally curious and like you said Rodney, this might help others in similar situations down the road, make the same call.

[robcat2075]

I guess something that would need to be figured out is how many hours this would occupy. What proportion of full-time job hours would this be?

[largento]

I think your only hope would be that there would be people who want to chip in and help you with the project. The time required would mean that to actually pay someone for every hour spent would be astronomical. Especially (assuming you are talking about your Star Trek project) when you can't legally recoup any of your cost.

 

Luckily, there is a community of folks here who like to chip in and help people.

 

Just one thing I've noticed from being an observer all these years is that if the guy at the top isn't doing at least as much work as the folks he's recruited, the projects tend to fall apart. Volunteers and employees are not the same animal.

[robcat2075]

I've decided there are three reasons one gets involved in a large animation project like a feature or a series...

 

1- Money will be made

2- It's a story that must be told

3- It will be fantastically fun

 

The project needs to have at least one of those going for it to keep people on board.

 

Most features get done purely for reason #1

 

Nina Paley probably did "Sita Sings the Blues" for reason #2 but she was on her own.

 

I briefly thought TWO would be reason #3 but it was grindingly unfun at every turn

[Darkwing]

@Largento, I agree, though in previous experience, it is tedious at best trying to get people to volunteer. I've just always found it's been kinda like pulling teeth to get people to help. Also, the only time I did, it kinda got blown for the handful who did help out from time to time, so I fear that my reputation may not be strong enough to get free support. Coupled with Robert's assessment of why people help, money is one of the few ways to get people involved. The problem with money is people expect (for good reason obviously, I expect it too!) to get money to compensate for any tools and time used, plus extra (profit) to make it worth it, so they gain something out of it. The other problems I personally would face is that my stories aren't ones that just have to be told. Sure some of them are decent, good and occasionally pretty awesome, they're not the type of groundbreaking thing that needs to be told. And of course people who do this stuff for fun, are usually very busy with their own projects so that brings us back to option one, money. Or cookies, I'll just mail everyone on the team some cookies

 

But I do agree about the workload, a team isn't there so the top-dog can just sit back and relax while the minions work.

 

The other point there about recouping money is completely correct. We unfortunately cannot sell Red Squad so we've spent more than we've made An option that another web filmmaker used which worked well for them (but their viewership is much higher I think and the main guy is more charismatic than I) was to ask just for general donations. His web project cost in the vicinity of ten grand to make and I'm pretty sure he was able to raise most of it through donations. In an ideal world, it would be great if people would just donate money so we could then go on to hire one or more of you guys, but I have my doubts as people are highly skeptical about even dishing out as little as ten dollars to help people "make their dream." I'm also a pessimist so I could be flawed in my negative reasoning.

[largento]

Personally, I feel uncomfortable about asking people to help. Doing a large project with lots of people requires organizational skills I simply do not possess. It's the old thing about bringing in a freelancer when I was working at an agency. "This job is too big, I can't finish it in time." "We'll bring in a freelancer." "Great!" Then you have to spend so much time bringing the freelancer up to speed and answering their questions and making sure they are on track, that you realize you could have done it in less time by yourself.

 

@Robert, I think those are definitely factors that play into it. Sometimes there's just a need to create, too. For my project, #1 is a factor (although I don't have unrealistic expectations of it paying for the time I'll have spent on it.) Not so much #2, other than this is a project I've wanted to do for a long time and I like that I'm going to be able to check it off the list. #3 is a factor, but you can create #3 on almost any project ...for a time. The reality is that this is still work and you have to find the fun where you can get it. Me, I'd rather be working on my own project than working on something that's not what I want to do.

 

Although it could be loosely affiliated with #1, there is the idea too of accomplishment. It is a deeply satisfying thing for me to finish something. Especially something that took a great amount of effort and time. There's the thought in the back of your head that it might lead to something in the future, too. That's certainly the motivation behind most short films.

 

@Chris, I would consider taking a fresh look at what the realities are. Is there an easier (or at least more time-economical) format to accomplish what you want to? What if you did it in a webcomic form but had animated ship battles?

 

The puppet thing was definitely my rosetta stone for doing this project. Once I realized that I could simplify the animation, it made it possible to do what I wanted to do. And, as I often find, that solution for something I couldn't do turned out to be better than the original idea. I think the puppet characters are more appealing than the cg-cartoon ones I'd originally set out to do.

[Rodney]

Something to also consider...

 

People are attracted to success.

 

If you've got a good thing going you'll know it.

Communities like ours may not have everyone rushing to work on your project but one or two people might want to climb on board.

It helps to be able to outline your production plan and articulate the work required. People need something tangible to grab onto.

In a case like this the person/people joining the project would likely be assisting because they want the experience or they think the project (or person) is worth supporting.

 

You've been here awhile and people know who you and are familiar with your work ethic.

If you were to have arrived only yesterday and asked folks to join in on your project you could rightly expect to get a few blank stares and odd looks.

 

I read and understand Robert's reaction to TWO and understand what he's talking about. I can recall one time where I was seeing red because a lot of work that I had done was completely ignored and then subsequently changed into what I considered a pale version of what I had in mind. (I got over myself though) Working on a feature film, or any long term project should be expected to be a lot of more work than it is fun. If it was all fun you'd see a lot more people joining in on all the projects that continually happen along.

 

Mark Largento's projects are a good case study in production. His projects have been of the type that people routinely ask if he'd like to have their support. Heck, he turns people away from working on his projects like a cowboy would swat the flies away from his horse (that's a lot of folks!). Perhaps most importantly, because he's got a solid plan to work from, he can afford to press on with his projects primarily on his own.

[NancyGormezano]

I found this an

on what some research is showing about motivation/drive. It seems relevant to this conversation, as well as other recent threads. It ain't necessarily money that is the motivator.

 

I shan't reveal the punchline - but am curious as to how others feel about the points presented. They ring true for me.

[Darkwing]

Personally, I feel uncomfortable about asking people to help. Doing a large project with lots of people requires organizational skills I simply do not possess. It's the old thing about bringing in a freelancer when I was working at an agency. "This job is too big, I can't finish it in time." "We'll bring in a freelancer." "Great!" Then you have to spend so much time bringing the freelancer up to speed and answering their questions and making sure they are on track, that you realize you could have done it in less time by yourself.

 

@Robert, I think those are definitely factors that play into it. Sometimes there's just a need to create, too. For my project, #1 is a factor (although I don't have unrealistic expectations of it paying for the time I'll have spent on it.) Not so much #2, other than this is a project I've wanted to do for a long time and I like that I'm going to be able to check it off the list. #3 is a factor, but you can create #3 on almost any project ...for a time. The reality is that this is still work and you have to find the fun where you can get it. Me, I'd rather be working on my own project than working on something that's not what I want to do.

 

Although it could be loosely affiliated with #1, there is the idea too of accomplishment. It is a deeply satisfying thing for me to finish something. Especially something that took a great amount of effort and time. There's the thought in the back of your head that it might lead to something in the future, too. That's certainly the motivation behind most short films.

 

@Chris, I would consider taking a fresh look at what the realities are. Is there an easier (or at least more time-economical) format to accomplish what you want to? What if you did it in a webcomic form but had animated ship battles?

 

The puppet thing was definitely my rosetta stone for doing this project. Once I realized that I could simplify the animation, it made it possible to do what I wanted to do. And, as I often find, that solution for something I couldn't do turned out to be better than the original idea. I think the puppet characters are more appealing than the cg-cartoon ones I'd originally set out to do.

 

Part of my problem (is it a problem?) is that I tend to have very specific things in mind. Certain things I'm willing to compromise on, others I'm not. For instance, what I want would actually be live-action. That isn't plausible so the next best bet is animation. Plus as a poor university student, animation allows for certain things I wouldn't be able to accomplish live action anyways, so the trade-offs are about even. Plus, I do like animation too and I'm liking the style Red Squad is in so that's good as well. But yeah, what I have in mind is somewhat specific in terms of format because it has been my struggling goal for 6-7 years to produce a "quality" web-series.

 

Something to also consider...

 

People are attracted to success.

 

If you've got a good thing going you'll know it.

Communities like ours may not have everyone rushing to work on your project but one or two people might want to climb on board.

It helps to be able to outline your production plan and articulate the work required. People need something tangible to grab onto.

In a case like this the person/people joining the project would likely be assisting because they want the experience or they think the project (or person) is worth supporting.

 

You've been here awhile and people know who you and are familiar with your work ethic.

If you were to have arrived only yesterday and asked folks to join in on your project you could rightly expect to get a few blank stares and odd looks.

 

I read and understand Robert's reaction to TWO and understand what he's talking about. I can recall one time where I was seeing red because a lot of work that I had done was completely ignored and then subsequently changed into what I considered a pale version of what I had in mind. (I got over myself though) Working on a feature film, or any long term project should be expected to be a lot of more work than it is fun. If it was all fun you'd see a lot more people joining in on all the projects that continually happen along.

 

Mark Largento's projects are a good case study in production. His projects have been of the type that people routinely ask if he'd like to have their support. Heck, he turns people away from working on his projects like a cowboy would swat the flies away from his horse (that's a lot of folks!). Perhaps most importantly, because he's got a solid plan to work from, he can afford to press on with his projects primarily on his own.

 

Yeah, I agree, there's so much work to a large project, but I imagine in the end, if it's something you wanted to make, the satisfaction must be worth it (I would hope, otherwise I've wasted half a decade's worth of dreams and hopes ) Of course now I have the benefit of having continually failed at projects, so by now I have a pretty good sense of what sort of organizational structure I'd need to potentially make something work and what kind of team would ideally be needed. Funny enough, one of the things I've always wanted to see in one of my projects, is a lot of names that don't end in Cameron in the credits Mighta been cause I was teased about that early on, but I won't get into the psychology of it

But to get to my real point here, though I've been around a while, I imagine of earned the reputation of one who doesn't complete projects. I mean after Earth-Link Zero, I've kind of been very hesitant to even consider ever asking for help again. I know ultimately that wasn't my project, but I basically made the call on it after doing the math and was the one to break the news to everyone that it was cancelled. I mean I've done my best and that was what, one or two years ago, but still, what have I accomplished in that time? I've made a couple of models and that's about it. Red Squad is different, but that one was sort of guaranteed to be completed anyways due to the fact its fourth in the series and I've only been on board for about 10 months. So yeah, I know there's a large part of me hesitant to ask for help simply because I'm afraid I may have blown that opportunity. The difference between Mark and I is that Mark has spent the last few years finishing projects or at least pumping out continual products (ie Wannabe) and Stalled Trek interestingly enough has an almost viral effect due to it having been started, shelved and then reborn coupled with the fact that Mark is very talented and has a very cool style that people want to be involved in. I dunno, this is stuff that plays on my mind, not sure what this has to do with money, maybe I think it's because if I were to ever start a project, I think I maybe need to feel the need to pay because I know I'm losing something so its more incentive to finish the project! Of course it comes back to being able to afford it which then means some sort of fundraising technique and somehow, we need to get back to the original question of how much it costs!

[Darkwing]

I found this an

on what some research is showing about motivation/drive. It seems relevant to this conversation, as well as other recent threads. It ain't necessarily money that is the motivator.

 

I shan't reveal the punchline - but am curious as to how others feel about the points presented. They ring true for me.

 

 

Ironically enough, motivation is the section we just completed in Psych yesterday! Will look at the video shortly!

 

EDIT: Fascinating video, kinda goes against what I was taught in Psych about rewards and punishment models and conditioning, but then again, it's only intro psych and we were dealing with animals and children so purpose perhaps doesn't come so much into play. Like the narrator said, with rudimentary tasks it works beautifully, but outside of that, not so much. Now the question is application. Supposing this is true, how can we apply it to a situation like this because I know I'm not the only one who's ever wanted to start a large project but haven't been able to round the troops in an economic fashion and therefore projects get left in the dust or stored on the shelves for that mystical day someday later when you're rich enough to afford it or have all the time to do it yourself (so if you live in an upper middle class bracket, that would be retirement!)

[NancyGormezano]

we need to get back to the original question of how much it costs!

 

Now the question is application. Supposing this is true, how can we apply it to a situation like this because I know I'm not the only one who's ever wanted to start a large project but haven't been able to round the troops in an economic fashion

 

If you tap into, as to what is suggested in the above video, ie if you can tap into the supposedly universal (creative type) motivators for: Autonomy, Mastery, Purpose - then you could find yourself with lots of free help. Your project must appear to sync with someone's desire to 1) have the freedom to create (don't get in their way) 2) look like a project that will teach, improve their skills in some area 3) serve some purpose. The Oz projects, in particular, TWO appeared that way at first. Purpose was a bit muddied. Most likely the main purpose was to showcase A:M, and get more subscribers, users. Not necessarily the best purpose for a high quality movie result.

 

So yes, purpose - is the one that to me, seems to fall down, is the hardest to define most of the time with these movie, web comic projects. If the purpose is to make money...well...then it needs to ... ??? The purpose may be just to entertain, as in web series, animations, etc. Then it REALLY better be entertaining. And NOT just for the creators. It may also serve a purpose to get the participators noticed, as a stepping stone to something bigger. Know your target audience and give em what they want? Make it seem as if it has some value to them? That it teaches them some mastery? Gives them autonomy? That's probably why selling tutorials, books, animation/art classes, software is a vehicle to self-supporting the creating author. It creates the illusion that they have the tools, mastery, and they can teach you the secrets to success!

 

As for getting noticed, here's another opinion with an entertaining, high quality Sundance movie "Pickin' & Trimmin" . I think the appeal of this documentary is that it connects with something in all of us. The creator makes A Case for Truly Free Short Films, as to how to get noticed, and start down the path to "success".

 

There is usually no instant, easy path. Unless you got a sugar momma stashed somewhere.

[Rodney]

I'm going to try to keep this on the subject of "How much does it cost". Apologies for any tangent in advance...

 

Funny enough, one of the things I've always wanted to see in one of my projects, is a lot of names that don't end in Cameron in the credits

 

This always makes me smile but we need to accept that this multiple instances in credits is a clear signal sent to the viewer but I don't think it's the signal intended. In my estimation a project created by one person could have one (perhaps two... but that is a stretch) mentions in the credits. As I see it multiple credits are an indicator of:

 

- An amateur production

- Someone who knows that a production usually takes more than one person filling many roles

- Someone capable of separating the various processes involved

- Someone that wishes to work with other people

- Someone who would like others to know how much work went into the production

(some others I haven't yet considered)

 

I think in most cases (the obvious exception would be a purposeful spoof for humorous intent) a single credit stating "Created by X" will be considerably more powerful. Lets say you've got two people who worked on the project; "Created by X and Z" or perhaps better yet put the credit right up there on the title "X and Z's Thundercabbages: Revolt!". Then perhaps just list a dedication to supporters in lieu of the end credits or post a weblink so that interested parties can find out more about the production.

 

Believe that the credits is where people tend to recoup their investment in the project. This is very important.

A missing credit (or misspelled name) can be damaging to the one who would have been credited, if not to their reputation certainly to their morale. Proper accreditation (sourcing) is a really tough job... but so very important. When considering cost in a production I'd say you need to factor for and budget in someone to organize, manage and track the production from cradle to grave because that will be a full time job. Where a credit is unknown or too labor intensive to figure out, consider a broader tip of the hat (i.e. "Special thanks to the A:M Community for all the support")

 

If you are doing the duty of the project manager in addition to being the creative talent then your work is easier in many ways (fewer people means fewer breakdowns in communication) but it will distract you from your other jobs. You'll need to budget (time) for that.

 

So, factor project management into your cost/budget. At a minimum I'd say you'll need to 'pay' for one hour at the beginning of each day and one at the end of each day. This allows the machine to focus on getting the production moving in the right direction and to keep it on track and on budget.

[NancyGormezano]

Most likely the main purpose was to showcase A:M, and get more subscribers, users. Not necessarily the best purpose for a high quality movie result

 

However - to dispute my own claim - Branded Films are being produced, and as this article suggests - "For filmmakers, branded films are quickly becoming the music video of our day. A place where up-and-coming filmmakers are given money and freedom to create something compelling"

 

Check out in particular Plot Device, a highly entertaining branded film, brought to life by film tools company Red Giant Software.

[Darkwing]

I'm going to try to keep this on the subject of "How much does it cost". Apologies for any tangent in advance...

 

Funny enough, one of the things I've always wanted to see in one of my projects, is a lot of names that don't end in Cameron in the credits

 

This always makes me smile but we need to accept that this multiple instances in credits is a clear signal sent to the viewer but I don't think it's the signal intended. In my estimation a project created by one person could have one (perhaps two... but that is a stretch) mentions in the credits. As I see it multiple credits are an indicator of:

 

- An amateur production

- Someone who knows that a production usually takes more than one person filling many roles

- Someone capable of separating the various processes involved

- Someone that wishes to work with other people

- Someone who would like others to know how much work went into the production

(some others I haven't yet considered)

 

I think in most cases (the obvious exception would be a purposeful spoof for humorous intent) a single credit stating "Created by X" will be considerably more powerful. Lets say you've got two people who worked on the project; "Created by X and Z" or perhaps better yet put the credit right up there on the title "X and Z's Thundercabbages: Revolt!". Then perhaps just list a dedication to supporters in lieu of the end credits or post a weblink so that interested parties can find out more about the production.

 

Believe that the credits is where people tend to recoup their investment in the project. This is very important.

A missing credit (or misspelled name) can be damaging to the one who would have been credited, if not to their reputation certainly to their morale. Proper accreditation (sourcing) is a really tough job... but so very important. When considering cost in a production I'd say you need to factor for and budget in someone to organize, manage and track the production from cradle to grave because that will be a full time job. Where a credit is unknown or too labor intensive to figure out, consider a broader tip of the hat (i.e. "Special thanks to the A:M Community for all the support")

 

If you are doing the duty of the project manager in addition to being the creative talent then your work is easier in many ways (fewer people means fewer breakdowns in communication) but it will distract you from your other jobs. You'll need to budget (time) for that.

 

So, factor project management into your cost/budget. At a minimum I'd say you'll need to 'pay' them for one hour at the beginning of each day and one at the end of each day. This allows the machine to focus on getting the production moving in the right direction and to keep it on track and on budget.

 

Yeah, credits are extremely important. I mean look at how frequently filmmakers/distributers are sued because a credit for a particular person was neglected or not done quite right. But ultimately my point is that I've always wanted to be able to display a project of mine that was worked on by numerous other people as well, dunno why but I think it'd be cool to see all kinds of different names in credits. Something I think I might do in coming days is do up a mock pitch. Taking bits from what I've learned through this thread, the Adventure Character thread and other things like that, I would be interested to see what the response/edits would be to it. Plus it might help others down the road if there's an example pitch kicking around or something!

[Rodney]

I've always wanted to be able to display a project of mine that was worked on by numerous other people

 

It's a good goal to have.

To satisfy that in it's essence though you could probably produce a collaborative one, two (or if you are really motivated) a five minute short. Make it a commercial or trailer for the megaproject just to get that out of your system so you can effectively move on.

 

I think Nancy alluded to this... What you need is a fat cat Producer.

Right now you've really only got.. what... consultants?

In your other post you mention creating a pitch and I think you are on the right track there.

But keep in mind that unless you are fulfilling the position you'll still need to pitch that to an actual Producer.

I know it's an oversimplifications but... the Producer is the one whose whole full time job is to get your project produced.

They usually don't finance the project but will often facilitate that too. Especially, when you break the budget and the project appears to be doomed.

[Darkwing]

Yeah, Producer is the role I typically end up fulfilling and it has to be one of the most challenging positions to do in a film and the position I probably like the least, except maybe next to Script Supervisor, yet both are incredibly important positions. Also, I'm not entirely sure what to think of the "get it out of your system" bit. I mean I've been striving for years to make something that's a web-series, the plots and ideas change, but the goal/dream is still the same. Also, it's the thing that keeps me striving to be better. I'm one of those stubborn ones that doesn't want to compromise on quality though, even though its quality that slows one down in the end. I'm not exactly sure what I'd move on to. Really that's not something that's ever crossed my mind. Something to think about I suppose.

 

But regardless, I still think I'm going to write up this pitch as a general template for future organization and submit it here on the board once its been fully fleshed out, for the benefit of others I would hope so that they can glean something from it as well. I have no intentions of it being used in any official capacity as I highly doubt I will ever be submitting anything to a legit producer.

[Rodney]

There is a danger of going further off topic here so let me hook it in by asking, "How much does waste cost?"

I want to explore that element of cost because it can be considerable.

 

I'm not entirely sure what to think of the "get it out of your system" bit.

 

Let's approach the cost of a project from two angles simultaneously:

 

1 - The project was a huge success

2 - The project wasted an incredible amount of time and energy (money)

 

These are both extreme categories that most projects will not fall into. Reality will usually channel projects to a position of relative safety somewhere in between. But just because we won't actually realize either does not mean we can't use them effectively to shift our project toward success and away from wasting time and money.

 

When considering how much a thing costs it'll really pay dividends to consider waste (as processed through workflows and streamlining).

In the business world right now everything is green... recycling is in... reuse is an essential... conservation of energy is key.

 

Approaching the ultimate success we could hope for a miracle. Poof! You are there.

Now what do you want to do now that you've realized your dream?

We usually don't have a very good answer to this because we've never considered it.

We are much more attuned to dealing with failure than we are to success and we are comfortable there.

There reason most people are not well prepared to deal with success is because they've never really considered that they might actually succeed!

We assume we will fail and comfortably proceed from there.

 

This seems to me to be unnecessary waste.

Get it out of the system and move beyond the presently stated goal and the artificial definitions of success.

What do the present goals facilitate?

 

Bringing this back to the idea of 'seeing a list of other people's names scrolling down the screen for one of your projects' when placed between the two extremes identified it falls closer to number two on the reality scale the longer you stretch out your project. Of course, this might not be your time and energy that is wasted. So how does one compensate?

 

One way is to increase the likelyhood for success.

Here we enter the realm of the project space (which can be projected and predicated).

For instance, on a scale of 1 to 10 with one being least likely how do the following rate:

 

The script for all episodes is finished. 1-----------5-----------10

The Episode 1 script is available. 1-----------5-----------10

The script will not change. 1-----------5-----------10

The assets required to be modeled are identified. 1-----------5-----------10

A clear method of approval is identified. 1-----------5-----------10

....

 

This is only an example and I'm sure you can come up with a long list of your own.

The point here is that the likelyhood of these directly relates to the likelyhood of your project succeeding.

Some will be critical deal breakers or cause problems for 'real' people.

A Director must address these.

 

What I'm getting at here is that it is important for you to see yourself as successful in this project or you'll limit yourself considerably and perhaps the project fatally. I'd say it would help to see yourself as extremely successful but overconfidence (a reliance on things that are not very likely) will lead to failure and very interesting learning opportunities. As they say at PIXAR, "Make mistakes more quickly!"

 

This is why I suggest getting such things as notions of 'seeing other people's names listed in the credits of your project' out of your system as efficiently and quickly as you can. Certainly, take the time necessary to realize that goal but then move beyond it to the next thing. Attack it like you mean it and if the goal looks too easy increase the quantity, quality or frequency. For instance, "Make it your goal to have 10 three minute projects with a list of other people in the credits." It's okay to have those fancies but it's better to see past them and consider what the names as people in those credits mean. Mostly they represent real people who don't want to waste their time or energy but do want you to succeed beyond your wildest dream.

 

You're young but time is a wastin' here!

Our goal when you look back on this many years from now is to have you say "That was time well spent."

[zandoriastudios]

....If you tap into, as to what is suggested in the above video, ie if you can tap into the supposedly universal (creative type) motivators for: Autonomy, Mastery, Purpose - then you could find yourself with lots of free help. Your project must appear to sync with someone's desire to 1) have the freedom to create (don't get in their way) 2) look like a project that will teach, improve their skills in some area 3) serve some purpose. The Oz projects, in particular, TWO appeared that way at first. Purpose was a bit muddied. Most likely the main purpose was to showcase A:M, and get more subscribers, users. Not necessarily the best purpose for a high quality movie result.

 

So yes, purpose - is the one that to me, seems to fall down, is the hardest to define most of the time with these movie, web comic projects. If the purpose is to make money...well...then it needs to ... ??? The purpose may be just to entertain, as in web series, animations, etc. Then it REALLY better be entertaining. And NOT just for the creators....

 

I'm thinking about all these same issues with "TAR of Zandoria". To bring in a team, they would have to be co-creators, because I don't have the resources to just pay them. But would they be as motivated? And to relinquish control of Tar would be a big sacrifice (After participating in the early development of TWO, I remember how frustrating that can be).

However, with different artists bringing their own talents, there is an upside--Since more stories can be told within the same milieu. If I can keep control over the look, and the "bible", then it would be fantastic to have other artists join Zandoria Studios. We would just distribute freely over the Youtube channel and eventually put the episodes on DVD [profits distributed amongst the co-creators].

[largento]

Mark Largento's projects are a good case study in production. His projects have been of the type that people routinely ask if he'd like to have their support. Heck, he turns people away from working on his projects like a cowboy would swat the flies away from his horse (that's a lot of folks!). Perhaps most importantly, because he's got a solid plan to work from, he can afford to press on with his projects primarily on his own.

 

Thanks, Rodney, but I'd just like to say that I've never viewed the offers of help as flies pestering my horse! :-)

 

And I have taken people up on their offers of help. Mark S. helped me a LOT with the rigging on The Wannabe Pirates and Ken H. modeled a few characters for me. I do prefer to tackle the job on my own since I view these projects as my hobby and I'm doing them because I enjoy doing them. The idea of just being an organizer doesn't sound nearly as appealing to me. I enjoy the doing.

 

The difference between Mark and I is that Mark has spent the last few years finishing projects or at least pumping out continual products (ie Wannabe) and Stalled Trek interestingly enough has an almost viral effect due to it having been started, shelved and then reborn coupled with the fact that Mark is very talented and has a very cool style that people want to be involved in.

 

Thanks, Chris, but I think you hit upon a key thing. Stalled Trek was shelved because I realized it was too big for me to handle at the time. I needed more experience and a way to simplify it. Even the Wannabe Pirates was an evolution from a series of short films to the webcomic. What the webcomic did for me was allow me to accomplish something just about every day. Instead of working months and months on something, I could write up a strip, set up the frames, render them and put it up on the web for people to see. That's a great feeling. It's a great motivator and when you can see the light at the end of the tunnel, it becomes easier to take on those more difficult tasks.

 

And in those couple of years I learned a great deal about using the program. To the point that when I animated those sequences for the book trailer, I realized I was ready to take a stab at animation again and prompted me to figure out a way that I could do it without requiring an army of people to help me.

 

I discussed this with another webcomicker who was a former A:M user. There's a siren call with A:M, because you realize you can do almost anything with it. But what you soon realize is that there isn't enough time in the day to do everything to get to that lofty goal.

 

I am tremendously glad now that I did shelve Stalled Trek, because I think this new version is going to be far better than what I could have accomplished a few years ago. And that's directly because of the time spent doing the Wannabe Pirates. And along those evolutionary lines, I think animating these puppet shows will work as a kind of training wheels to improve my animation skills to the point that I could do something more complex down the road. But it's going to take a few years, I'm sure. To quote Admiral Kirk, "We learn by doing."

 

The real difference between you and I is you have a great deal more time ahead of you than I do. I'm turning 44 tomorrow and I didn't start trying to learn this stuff until 5 years ago. By the time you get to my age, you'll have had decades of learning and experience.

 

My advice is to set your sights on easily attainable goals, so that you don't find yourself overwhelmed and thinking you have to pay other people to do the work for you. Accomplishing a bunch of little things is much better than not-accomplishing something big. And the only way to accomplish something big is by accomplishing a bunch of little things.

[Rodney]

To bring in a team, they would have to be co-creators, because I don't have the resources to just pay them.

 

I don't think collaborators necessarily have to be co-creators, although a system that provides some sort of fair sharing is ideal.

Most people who join a team understand that they aren't the creator as much as facilitators in the greater scheme of things.

If I were to work on your project and simply translate your story from the script/storyboard/animatics into animation I do not consider myself a co-creator. Now if during that process I develop a supporting character that ends up being a major character... that'd be another thing.

 

This is why I think it's good to have as much locked down as possible before bringing everyone into the project team.

Tar is your character and even if I animate him, I have no claim to him... as it should be.

 

This doesn't mean that everyone couldn't be involved in a shared profit situation in some way. The assumption being that you may want to work with these people again so you want to treat them like important members of the team.

 

While I am very cautious of work-for-hire contracts I'm actually a fan of them because they let everyone know the deal before committing to the project and this helps me understand whether or not I'm considered a creator.

If the contracts are designed in such a way as to grant special privileges and royalties in case of high return on investment, so much the better.

 

I'm partial to the idea of interns but acknowledge that most interns do get paid.

If the intern is being taught while working through a project that might represent more of a bartering system.

Unlike colleges at least they don't have to pay you while the project is underway.

[Darkwing]

Mark Largento's projects are a good case study in production. His projects have been of the type that people routinely ask if he'd like to have their support. Heck, he turns people away from working on his projects like a cowboy would swat the flies away from his horse (that's a lot of folks!). Perhaps most importantly, because he's got a solid plan to work from, he can afford to press on with his projects primarily on his own.

 

Thanks, Rodney, but I'd just like to say that I've never viewed the offers of help as flies pestering my horse! :-)

 

And I have taken people up on their offers of help. Mark S. helped me a LOT with the rigging on The Wannabe Pirates and Ken H. modeled a few characters for me. I do prefer to tackle the job on my own since I view these projects as my hobby and I'm doing them because I enjoy doing them. The idea of just being an organizer doesn't sound nearly as appealing to me. I enjoy the doing.

 

The difference between Mark and I is that Mark has spent the last few years finishing projects or at least pumping out continual products (ie Wannabe) and Stalled Trek interestingly enough has an almost viral effect due to it having been started, shelved and then reborn coupled with the fact that Mark is very talented and has a very cool style that people want to be involved in.

 

Thanks, Chris, but I think you hit upon a key thing. Stalled Trek was shelved because I realized it was too big for me to handle at the time. I needed more experience and a way to simplify it. Even the Wannabe Pirates was an evolution from a series of short films to the webcomic. What the webcomic did for me was allow me to accomplish something just about every day. Instead of working months and months on something, I could write up a strip, set up the frames, render them and put it up on the web for people to see. That's a great feeling. It's a great motivator and when you can see the light at the end of the tunnel, it becomes easier to take on those more difficult tasks.

 

And in those couple of years I learned a great deal about using the program. To the point that when I animated those sequences for the book trailer, I realized I was ready to take a stab at animation again and prompted me to figure out a way that I could do it without requiring an army of people to help me.

 

I discussed this with another webcomicker who was a former A:M user. There's a siren call with A:M, because you realize you can do almost anything with it. But what you soon realize is that there isn't enough time in the day to do everything to get to that lofty goal.

 

I am tremendously glad now that I did shelve Stalled Trek, because I think this new version is going to be far better than what I could have accomplished a few years ago. And that's directly because of the time spent doing the Wannabe Pirates. And along those evolutionary lines, I think animating these puppet shows will work as a kind of training wheels to improve my animation skills to the point that I could do something more complex down the road. But it's going to take a few years, I'm sure. To quote Admiral Kirk, "We learn by doing."

 

The real difference between you and I is you have a great deal more time ahead of you than I do. I'm turning 44 tomorrow and I didn't start trying to learn this stuff until 5 years ago. By the time you get to my age, you'll have had decades of learning and experience.

 

My advice is to set your sights on easily attainable goals, so that you don't find yourself overwhelmed and thinking you have to pay other people to do the work for you. Accomplishing a bunch of little things is much better than not-accomplishing something big. And the only way to accomplish something big is by accomplishing a bunch of little things.

 

 

This is kind of interesting because my "big dream" if you will has changed numerous times. Here I'll see if I can explain better. The idea for a good 6 years now at least has been to create a series of some sort. Back when I was younger and more innocent, it was to make a TV series, but the web is just as good (better actually) once you actually know of its existence! I think one of the key things is I've had no particular story that has prevailed after all these years as being "the one." Granted, for the longest time it was to make Captain Heroic, then it changed to some other things and then when I met Chris K and he had this idea for a concept called Earth-Link Zero, I really grabbed onto that and really did a lot of crafting with it because it looked like it was going to be "the one." The problem is that by the time we finished crafting the story (and some pre-production was done by not just ourselves, but other helpful people of this community) it had gotten so fantastically large that when we stepped back, we realized that between the small handful of us, we were attempting to make a mult-million dollar blockbuster style picture. That presented us with a choice, drastically cut it down, or just stop doing it. We liked it too much as it was so cutting it back was like cutting off a limb or too to save space, so we cancelled it. I'll admit after that I kind of gave up a bit on the idea of being able to make a series or that one awesome project that I've been trying to since I was a kid. After the cancellation of ELZ though, Chris K continued with a previous project of his which was Red Squad. In the duration of the last year or two, he produced two episodes and then now for the fourth and final episode, I've been helping out with it as we all know. I think by now it's really come down to this horrible analogy I've just invented, which is for the majority of your life, you've been wanting a cake, but in the end, all you can have is a cookie. The cookie may be good and all, but it's no cake and after wanting the cake for so long, you really don't care about even bothering with the cookie. So that's my self-centered sob story, now onto more objective things.

 

I will admit I do agree about the whole little bits thing (tried a bunch of those as well and didn't get past pre-production). A lot of the time my problem is that my ideas tend to be on a larger scope and granted, there's undoubtedly a life lesson about compromising and cutting your ideas back for sake of reality in there somewhere, I see the only things I've ever completed start to finish being a handful of assorted models. Now I'm not discrediting Red Squad, it's a very cool project and will be great to see something done for once, it's not quite my project. I mean I did write the script and stuff for this one but it is the last episode and if finished on time, will have taken a year and a half.

 

Now I'm pretty sure I intended to have a point about all of this, but I seem to have forgotten it. Oddly enough though, my current idea is a Red Squad spinoff, but that could change at any moment because I seem to come up with a new series idea at least once a week. :/

[robcat2075]

One of my favorite observations (my own ) about large, no-budget animation projects is that a one-person animated feature seems to have a far greater chance of getting done than a (any number greater than one)-person animated feature does by internet collaboration.

 

There are quite a few examples of one person knocking out a feature by themselves (Bill Plympton, Jeff Lew, Nina Paley).

 

One could lose count of the animated internet-collaboration projects , short or feature) that got started but TWO and SO are the only no-budget, internet collaboration, animated features I'm aware of that got finished.

[NancyGormezano]

One could lose count of the animated internet-collaboration projects , short or feature) that got started but TWO and SO are the only no-budget, internet collaboration, animated features I'm aware of that got finished.

 

TWO was not a NO budget, as Martin would tell of the vast quantities of money that he spent out of his own pocket. Someone must have received that money. I don't know how much was spent, paid on SO (if any).

[robcat2075]

It's a much better story to say it's no-budget.

 

And i didn't make anything so that's no-budget enough for me!

[largento]

I think by now it's really come down to this horrible analogy I've just invented, which is for the majority of your life, you've been wanting a cake, but in the end, all you can have is a cookie. The cookie may be good and all, but it's no cake and after wanting the cake for so long, you really don't care about even bothering with the cookie. So that's my self-centered sob story, now onto more objective things.

 

 

"There is no cake."

 

There's a concept (it has a name but it escapes me) that we have a sort of self-delusion that the "future us" is better than the "current us." An example is when we say things like, "next week I'm going to go on a diet" or "I'm going to to write that novel next year." We somehow believe that future us is going to suddenly have the will power and discipline we don't possess in the present. Yet, without an effort being made in the present to gain that will power or discipline, we never will get it. We only have the ability to work in the present. You have to start now creating that future person you want to be.

[Roger]

I would have to 2nd Largento's statement. I didn't start making more progress until I set an attainable goal and started holding myself to it. 8 hours a day with a full time job is not realistic, unless you have way more energy than most people.

2 or 3 hours, yes.

[Rodney]

"There is no cake."

 

There's a concept (it has a name but it escapes me) that we have a sort of self-delusion that the "future us" is better than the "current us." An example is when we say things like, "next week I'm going to go on a diet" or "I'm going to to write that novel next year." We somehow believe that future us is going to suddenly have the will power and discipline we don't possess in the present. Yet, without an effort being made in the present to gain that will power or discipline, we never will get it. We only have the ability to work in the present. You have to start now creating that future person you want to be.

 

This has the echo of truth resounding deeply through it.

 

I ran across one of those free lectures from a university the other day that suggested psychologistics had some pretty useful results in setting up situations where people were afforded a way to speak with their future selves. The result of this 'meeting' was that the individual was able to come to terms with themselves. I'm not accurately capturing the content of that message but it concerned 'avatars' and what they bring to human psychology. A pretty interesting thing. My summary of it is that Roleplaying is good. It allows you to play and experiment. I believe the down side of this sort of thing is that it can produce an artificial but ultra real understanding of risk with regard to failure (young people are especially prone to this and often it leads to injury and even fatality). It's like a kid that begins to think he can fly like Superman and without timely intervention will never be afforded the opportunity of a full realization or will but only when it is far too late.

 

I don't know if there is or isn't any cake.

I'm a pie man myself.

 

So, back on topic of 'How much does it cost?'

 

Have you ever heard the story about the guy who needed money and a generous fellow who decided it was a righteous thing to give it to him?

Fellow: "So, how much do you need?"

Guy: "I don't know. How much have you got?"

 

But note that we can reverse this equation and flip it around in several ways to obtain more clarity:

 

Guy: How much do you have?

Fellow: That depends on how much do you need?

 

or

 

Guy: How much have you got?

Fellow: I dunno, How much do you need?

 

We can then switch the roles and roleplayings.

Have the Fellow be a down on his luck millionaire and the Guy a laborer just won the lottery.

 

But the answer to the topical question of "How much does it cost" mostly remains: That will largely depend upon how skilled you are at adding nothing to everything.

 

I didn't start making more progress until I set an attainable goal and started holding myself to it. 8 hours a day with a full time job is not realistic, unless you have way more energy than most people.

2 or 3 hours, yes.

 

There is wisdom here.