Oliver Dean Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 For a Star Trek parody, I am using AM to construct a CGI Enterprise Bridge set. I have successfully constructed the physical bridge, but am now trying to apply decals for the wall and console images. I was successful for the first two images I tried (planets picture, and Enterprise Diagram), then ran into distortion within the decal when I tried to apply the third one (Indicator Light and Plaque) to the Elevator Alcove Right Wall. Everything worked, right through the positioning process, but when I clicked on "apply," everything inside the decal distorted by expanding horizontally on the left and progressively contracting horizontally to the right, and stayed that way! This gave the look of everything being stretched out on the left to middle, and being squished over to the right. Things I have checked out: Working in Model mode and keeping careful track of my object group names in the hierarchy, I was very careful in all instances to be sure that I had selected only the surface upon which to deposit the decal, and to be sure that everything else was hidden. I worked in a Left view, with no perspective, and in Shader & Wireframe. What I ruled out was: 1. It isn't the decal image itself. I was rescaling the decal while positioning it, but this was done simply by moving the manipulator CP's, which visibly changes the scale uniformly, not in the severely non-uniform way the decal ends up when I hit "apply." I did the same procedure successfully decaling the Enterprise Diagram image on another surface with no problems. So I tried decaling the Enterprise Diagram on the Alcove Right Wall. But I got the same distortion I got with the Indicator Light and Plaque image. This ruled out the decal image as the source of the problem. 2. I thought that maybe the viewpoint was somehow responsible. So I tried being specially careful to orient the bIrd's eye view of the surface so that the viewpoint was normal to the surface. This did not improve anything. 3. I tried changing the viewpoint so that it was normal to the surface of the manipulator, rather than to the object (group) surface. This didn't help, either. 4. Finally, I tried rotating the entire model so that the surface to be decaled was parallel with the grid lines. This put the surface of the manipulator and the object's surface parallel to each other. Using a viewpoint normal to both the manipulator and the surface. I tried again. Still no improvement! The surface to which I am trying to apply the decal is a very simple, 4-point patch surface making up a vertical wall panel. There are no wrinkles or distortions in the patch surface, and it shows as a straight line when viewed from the top. I cannot think of any other geometric reason why this distortion should be occurring right at the moment of application. When I click on "apply," the undistorted, semi-transparent image I was using to position the image is added to by the transparent distorted image. Then, when I click outside the decal manipulator box, the undistorted image disappears, leaving a fully opaque and bright distorted image applied to the object surface. Argh! Has anyone else ever had this problem? If so, PLEASE let me know how you solved it! I'm trying to meet a deadline, and am really behind schedule! Cordially, Olvier Dean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hash Fellow robcat2075 Posted August 10, 2009 Hash Fellow Share Posted August 10, 2009 a picture is worth a thousand words. (my first guess, having seen *nothing*, is spline non-continuity) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NancyGormezano Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 My first GUESS without seeing anything, is that you are using ver 15e and that the decal you are applying does not cover the whole patch and that the image you are using perhaps has an alpha channel If that is the case - download ver 15f (unfortunately not available for CD version) - However - if you prefer or must stick with 15e - first apply a decal to the surface that covers the entire patch (using an image that is the same as the patch surface color or desired background color) - then apply the offending image that doesn't cover the entire surface (and has alpha channel) And without a picture - I hope that made sense... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oliver Dean Posted August 10, 2009 Author Share Posted August 10, 2009 My first GUESS without seeing anything, is that you are using ver 15e and that the decal you are applying does not cover the whole patch and that the image you are using perhaps has an alpha channel If that is the case - download ver 15f (unfortunately not available for CD version) - However - if you prefer or must stick with 15e - first apply a decal to the surface that covers the entire patch (using an image that is the same as the patch surface color or desired background color) - then apply the offending image that doesn't cover the entire surface (and has alpha channel) And without a picture - I hope that made sense... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rusty Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 My first guess after reading your lengthy reply to Nancy (please review again and check for typos) and seeing no image of the problem is that either... you have a warped computer screen or bad eye glasses. :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pixelplucker Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 I jumped back to 15d here, I had too many issues with 15e. If you are on the cd version like me try a clean install of AM and use the d upadate. I believe it is this one ftp://ftp.hash.com/pub/updates/windows/old/AMCD.exe They said they were coming out with F for the cd people, I would love to have that update but I'm sure they are super busy (cookouts, pool parties etc) since it is summer time :0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob_T Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 I've had this problem myself and Nancy saved me too. Thanks again Nancy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oliver Dean Posted August 11, 2009 Author Share Posted August 11, 2009 My first GUESS without seeing anything, is that you are using ver 15e and that the decal you are applying does not cover the whole patch and that the image you are using perhaps has an alpha channel If that is the case - download ver 15f (unfortunately not available for CD version) - However - if you prefer or must stick with 15e - first apply a decal to the surface that covers the entire patch (using an image that is the same as the patch surface color or desired background color) - then apply the offending image that doesn't cover the entire surface (and has alpha channel) And without a picture - I hope that made sense... Thank you, Nancy and Robert! I'm still getting used to this forum format -- hopefully, I can get this reply to attach some clarifying screen shots. Nancy, I tried your recommendations (upgrading to Version 15.0f, and putting on a larger decal first, with the same color as the surface. Neither helped. I am attaching a series of pictures illustrating: 1. An overview of the model, showing the location of the two surfaces in question (one that did not distort the decals I applied, and the one that did). 2. The successful decal (no Alpha channel) on the "good" surface. 3. The selection and "bird's eye" view of the "bad" surface before final adjustment of its viewpoint for dccaling. 4. The same decal as in #2 above after being newly generated but before positioning on the bad surface 5. After positioning (just before hitting "apply") 6. Right after hitting "apply" 7 Right after clicking outside the decal area. This is a consistent, repeatable problem that always occurs with the "bad" surface, no matter what I do. I have tried at least a dozen times to get it to work, with no success. Ideas, anyone? Cordially, Oliver Dean Hope that this clarifies the problem, and triggers someone's memory of a similar experience Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oliver Dean Posted August 11, 2009 Author Share Posted August 11, 2009 My first GUESS without seeing anything, is that you are using ver 15e and that the decal you are applying does not cover the whole patch and that the image you are using perhaps has an alpha channel If that is the case - download ver 15f (unfortunately not available for CD version) - However - if you prefer or must stick with 15e - first apply a decal to the surface that covers the entire patch (using an image that is the same as the patch surface color or desired background color) - then apply the offending image that doesn't cover the entire surface (and has alpha channel) And without a picture - I hope that made sense... Thank you, Nancy and Robert! I'm still getting used to this forum format -- hopefully, I can get this reply to attach some clarifying screen shots. Nancy, I tried your recommendations (upgrading to Version 15.0f, and putting on a larger decal first, with the same color as the surface. Neither helped. I am attaching a series of pictures illustrating: 1. An overview of the model, showing the location of the two surfaces in question (one that did not distort the decals I applied, and the one that did). 2. The successful decal (no Alpha channel) on the "good" surface. 3. The selection and "bird's eye" view of the "bad" surface before final adjustment of its viewpoint for dccaling. 4. The same decal as in #2 above after being newly generated but before positioning on the bad surface 5. After positioning (just before hitting "apply") 6. Right after hitting "apply" 7 Right after clicking outside the decal area. This is a consistent, repeatable problem that always occurs with the "bad" surface, no matter what I do. I have tried at least a dozen times to get it to work, with no success. Ideas, anyone? Cordially, Oliver Dean Hope that this clarifies the problem, and triggers someone's memory of a similar experience I'm retranmitting the pictures - I think #7 was missing. For some reason, my 4th picture was inserted at the beginning of the stack. Please view them in numerical order. Thanks! -- O. Dean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob_T Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 This is just a guess but it looks to me like you are trying to apply the decal to a patch while the view is at an angle to the patch. I think the decal has to be at the same angle as the patch to apply "flat" like you want it. Applying it at an angle will stretch it from the part of the patch that is closest to the part of the patch that is furthest. My suggestion is to adjust your view until the patch is flat on your screen, rotate the patch until you can view it from one of the standard views (front, back, left, right and so on) taking note of it's correct position and then rotating it back after the decal is applied or rotate the decal (which I'm not sure you can do and something tells me you can't although I'm somewhat new at this so that might not be the case) to the same angle as the patch. From what I've seen of your images that's my best guess. Others here with far more experience will be along shortly I'm sure. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pixelplucker Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 Rob is right that the decal is being applied at an angle. If you picture that decals are frontal projection maps, you should align the model to the your view as flat as possible to minimize distortion. I find the patch selection tool very handy for selecting just the surfaces I want decals on. Select the patches and hit the hide button. Next you can rotate and or orbit around the patches to show them as straight on as much as possible. For trickier decaling, you can make an Action and in muscle mode actually distort the model and sections of the model to flatten as much as possible for applying decals. The action can be deleted after your done and the model isn't destroyed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Bigboote Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 SINCE your decal is being applied to just 1 patch... you could try applying it as a patch image... 1-Make the target patch it's own group. 2- drop the image on the new group. fini Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oliver Dean Posted August 11, 2009 Author Share Posted August 11, 2009 SINCE your decal is being applied to just 1 patch... you could try applying it as a patch image... 1-Make the target patch it's own group. 2- drop the image on the new group. fini Thank you, Rob T, Pixelplucker, and John Bigboote. Regarding Rob's suggestion, as well as Pixelplucker's, I had already thought of that; as you see in the 3rd illustration, the viewpoint was carefully oriented so that it was square on to the patch surface -- I show the image just before the last tweak where I tilt the patch surface back a little in the view before applying the decal. In addition, I tried rotating the entire model so that the patch surface was parallel to a grid axis. Doing this made one of the standard views (in this case the Left view) normal to the patch surface. I also tried rotating the model so that the patch surface was square on (normal) to the Front view before applying the decal. None of these attempts worked. Rebooting the computer didn't help, either. Regarding John's comment, unless I misunderstand you, I think that is already the way I am doing it. The surface (target patch) is identified as a group, and when I select the group, this enables me to isolate the surface by hiding everything else. Then I reorient the viewpoint (if necessary) and try to position and plunk the decal in place. The group selection and isolation ("h" key) is what I did for all the illustrations after number 1. What I'm doing is very simple -- it just distorts on this patch surface. As you can see from the rendered images, the patch surface is perfectly flat with no wrinkles or other patch artifacts. It's as though there were some undocumented surface characteristic that is throwing off the decal's horizontal linearity when the "apply" button is hit. I can't find any difference between the patch surface that works and the one that distorts. They both were originally created from the same vertical extrusion. I'm really baffled! I am grateful for your inputs, but still no cigar! Cordially, Oliver Dean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HomeSlice Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 This doesn't solve the mystery, but a quick and dirty work-around (since the two patches appear to have the same decal applied to them) is to: delete the panel with the distorted decal. copy the panel with the non-distorted decal and paste it (creating a copy) in the model window. Then move it into place where the old problem panel was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NancyGormezano Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 Holmes suggested a good quick fix - should work - However, if you are still using ver 15e - there should be a problem with both walls as the decal does not cover the entire patch (even tho image does not have alpha channel). I always get a problem when I've done this in ver15e. The problem will only show up when final rendered - It will not show in the real-time view. Ver 15f should fix it. I will not be able to test it as I have the CD and do not have access to 15f. It's as though there were some undocumented surface characteristic that is throwing off the decal's horizontal linearity For the sake of curiosity, and to help solve this mystery - perhaps you can upload a zip file that contains a model that just has the 2 vertical walls (good and bad) along with the image you are using for the decal. They both were originally created from the same vertical extrusion -hmmm... not quite understanding this statement - but perhaps this is a clue to problem? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frosteternal Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 This may sound obvious - but does the problem show up in final render, or just in the real time (shaded) mode. By final render, I mean rendered to a file (not the quick render or bounding box render.) It looks suspiciously like a video card quirk. (Oh, and the double image after you hit "apply" is just the stamp floating above the applied version, waiting to be applied again.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oliver Dean Posted August 12, 2009 Author Share Posted August 12, 2009 Holmes suggested a good quick fix - should work - However, if you are still using ver 15e - there should be a problem with both walls as the decal does not cover the entire patch (even tho image does not have alpha channel). I always get a problem when I've done this in ver15e. The problem will only show up when final rendered - It will not show in the real-time view. Ver 15f should fix it. I will not be able to test it as I have the CD and do not have access to 15f. It's as though there were some undocumented surface characteristic that is throwing off the decal's horizontal linearity For the sake of curiosity, and to help solve this mystery - perhaps you can upload a zip file that contains a model that just has the 2 vertical walls (good and bad) along with the image you are using for the decal. They both were originally created from the same vertical extrusion -hmmm... not quite understanding this statement - but perhaps this is a clue to problem? Thanks, HomeSlice, Nancy, and Frosteternal. I haven't gotten to the final render stage yet (have to review the manual to find out how to do this!), so I can't answer your question about it for a day or two. The problem shows in the View Render options of Shaded and Shaded/Wireframe. But!!! The HomeSlice method worked, and got me a workaround I can use!!! Y-a-a-y!! Actually, it is a different decal I wanted to use, but for the sake of clarity in our correspondence I used the same one for the "bad" surface as the one for the "Good" surface. When I copied the "good" patch surface, it copied without the decal. I simply resized it to a teeny bit larger than the "bad" surface, and applied the correct decal successfully without distortion. Then I positioned the copy over the "bad" surface a hair's breadth away, saving me the hassle of removing the old patch surface from between two adjoining patches. As for Nancy's questions: I have been using version 15.0f since yesterday, which I downloaded and installed from the ftp (I have the email subscription version). Apparently this may not be related to the problems you have been experiencing, because it occurs for me with both alpha channel decals and non-alpha channel decals, and it does not occur on the panels across from the "bad" one. For clarification: When I said that both patch surfaces originated from the same vertical extrusion, I simply meant that I extruded a segmented spline at floor level upwards to create all the walls of the elevator alcove at one time. These two patch surfaces originated from different segments of this single, extruded floor-level spline. You would think that two simple patches from this extrusion would behave the same, but N-o-o-o! At least, we now have a work-around! Nancy, my apologies, but I am fighting a fearsome deadline involving several tight milestones until August 21. What I'll do is save an appropriate version of the model with the bad and good surfaces, and if you are still interested after the 21st, I'll extract some samples to send to you. I already sent an email to Hash Support describing the problem, and if they come up with any answers, I'll let this thread know. Thanks again for all your help! I think we can say that we have a good work-around, although a corrective or preventive solution is always welcome and preferable. Cordially, Oliver Dean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Rodney Posted August 12, 2009 Admin Share Posted August 12, 2009 Regarding John's comment, unless I misunderstand you, I think that is already the way I am doing it. The surface (target patch) is identified as a group, and when I select the group, this enables me to isolate the surface by hiding everything else. Then I reorient the viewpoint (if necessary) and try to position and plunk the decal in place. The group selection and isolation ("h" key) is what I did for all the illustrations after number 1. Just to clarify... You are misunderstanding Matt (John) here. A patch image and a decal are different. To apply an image to a patch you simply select the patch, Right Click and select Add Image. Then you either select an image that is currently available in A:M or browse to the new image you wish to apply. There is no need to position or apply decals. The image is simply applied to the patch. Note: The image is applied based on the orientation of the patches' normal. If the image appears oriented in a way that is not appropriate Right Click on the patch and choose Rotate Image or Flip Normal as required. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Bigboote Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 Thanks Rodney... I could'nt have made my instructions any simpler for the guy. You made it simpler though... I didn't know you could do it that way. It's almost TOO simple. Can we get Hash to complicate this feature a bit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtpeak2 Posted August 15, 2009 Share Posted August 15, 2009 The one problem with a patch image is, they stretch to the size of the patch (distorts them). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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