A:M Tutorials Forum Project for 2006

[Rodney]

All,

There is information in the A:M Forum on just about every subject matter related to Animation:Master. For many forum members finding and organizing this information can be a difficult task.

 

The A:M Forum provides for the collection, editing and dissemination of information to a variety of formats through the [Print Topic] option and basic/advanced search functions. In short, personalized/customized tutorials are only a mouse click away. Its even easier than it sounds.

 

As such we are looking to collect, edit and format some of these treasures, format them and ultimately make useful information available to the A:M Community. Once enough material is available they will be made available in a tutorial collection. This is a good chance for writers and editors to show their skills too.

 

Here are a few examples of the raw forum HTML that we'd like to collect.**

 

Trees and other Vegetation for TWO Movie - Frank Silas

 

Lighting Tutorial (Thanksgiving Scene) - Yves Poissant

 

I have an edited version of Yves's Lighting Tutorial which I'll try to post in a few different formats to show examples of the possibilities. Formats such as .doc, html, .swf, .pdf and .avi/.mov will be explored.

 

If you are interested in participating in this project we'd love to hear from you.

Thanks in advance for your interest!

 

**

Note1: Large graphics may cause a delay in the automated forum tutorials showing on screen. Please be patient. For those that can't wait for cleaned up tutorials printing of these files is not required just save them out from your browser onto your hard drive.

 

Note2: These forum tutorials are 'Live' and will be updated as people contribute to the topics. Check back from time to time and see what has been added by just clicking on the links.

[pdaley]

Jim Talbot did that Leopard Quenn deconstruction that is excellent.

[Rodney]

Jim Talbot did that Leopard Quenn deconstruction that is excellent.

 

Right on! That's a great one.

 

The Making of the Leopard Queen by Jim Talbot

 

If anyone wants to champion a specific tutorial or area of expertise just say the word.

I envision we'll have some Editors (Champions) who will hold onto the draft and finesse them until finally ready to go to press. The original author, contributors, subject matter experts and Hash Inc will be asked to review the final draft and comment and correct as they see fit.

 

Jim Talbot's Leopard Queen could be mined for some serious gold!

 

Rodney

[thumperness]

A couple of the most instructional tuts I've ever worked through were Jeff Canton's Basic Splinemanship I & II. I don't know if he's still a part of this community. If he is, see if he'll make an updated version for the recent upgrades. If he's not, could someone possibly redo his stuff in the current versions of A:M. I have noticed he gives some instructions that no longer work in the newer versions. His stuff can still be found on the A.R.M. It was/is invaluable information on beginning spline work. A good base of knowledge which can do nothing but make everyone a better modeler.

 

Thanx.

[Xtaz]

Hi Rodney .....

 

I would like to see MUFOOF in Printable version excellent initiative ....

[Rodney]

Xtas said:

I would like to see MUFOOF in Printable version.

 

Hey! Ye 'old point here is that everyone can do this.

 

The link to 'printify' your MUFOOF thread would be:

 

Multiple Frames in Only One Frame (MUFOOF) by Xtas and friends

 

Now turning your discussion into an article... that I'd like to do too. We can make that happen.

 

David Puthuff queried:

A couple of the most instructional tuts I've ever worked through were Jeff Canton's Basic Splinemanship I & II. I don't know if he's still a part of this community. If he is, see if he'll make an updated version for the recent upgrades. If he's not, could someone possibly redo his stuff in the current versions of A:M. I have noticed he gives some instructions that no longer work in the newer versions. His stuff can still be found on the A.R.M. It was/is invaluable information on beginning spline work. A good base of knowledge which can do nothing but make everyone a better modeler.

 

I agree with your assessment of Jeff Cantin. His works are essential reading.

Unfortunately he has unplugged from the online community these days.

Time and neglect have dulled the luster of those classics. Some of the information simple doesn't quite fit anymore.

 

Short of forming an annual trek to Reno to sit and learn at the school of Cantin I'm not sure what to do.

Jeff said he'd be back... so I wait.

 

Until Jeff returns we'll have to use what little light we have to plod forward.

Now if you are volunteering to help update these classics... we accept.

[thumperness]

Now if you are volunteering to help update these classics... we accept.

Uhhhhhhhh, but I have to wash my hair and uhhhhhh...walk the dog. Besides, I don't know nothin' 'bout birth'n no splines. Let me get certificated 1st, then maybe I'll feel worthy of updating those early writings.

[Rodney]

Uhhhhhhhh, but I have to wash my hair and uhhhhhh...walk the dog. Besides, I don't know nothin' 'bout birth'n no splines. Let me get certificated 1st, then maybe I'll feel worthy of updating those early writings.

 

Fair enough. But just wait until you are feeling worthy.

Then we will have our tutorial making revenge!

 

[Rodney]

I'm entertaining the idea of sponsoring/promoting a 'Theme of the Month' here in the Tutorials forum to highlight and refine topics of interest. This would be something in the tradition of 'Useful Links' and FAQs of the past but with a published theme to heighten interest and provide a focus for review and discussion.

 

This would be a general theme connected to an area of interest in the community for that month. For instance, Lighting has been a very popular theme this past month. Perhaps it'd be be nice to have related information collected for viewing in one easy to find spot?

 

Those wanting more information on a different subject could champion that theme for the focus in the coming months. The theme with the most accurate and compelling information would pop up to the top and get in the spotlight here in the Tutorials Forum each month.

 

Other related forum areas, topics, challenges and discussions throughout the forum could be linked into the ongoing discussion.

 

As new themes were published the older themes would drop down one notch but still be avialable for continued discussion. As appropriate, they'd be available to pop right back up.

 

I'd like your input on this.

Is this something of interest to others?

 

(Edited for clarity)

[John Bigboote]

I like that idea as it would spur discussions and reveal resources. Those who 'do it one way' could compare features and benefits with those who 'do it the other way' all while inspiring and educating those who 'just don't know'...

[phatso]

That's the best idea I've seen in ages. It could start with a bang by bringing together all the existing tutes on the subject that those of us who haven't been around forever don't even know about. And then it could go into (a new section of?) the archives all sorted and organized and ready for each successive batch of A:Mers to get up to speed on.

[Rodney]

That's the best idea I've seen in ages. It could start with a bang by bringing together all the existing tutes on the subject that those of us who haven't been around forever don't even know about. And then it could go into (a new section of?) the archives all sorted and organized and ready for each successive batch of A:Mers to get up to speed on.

 

I'm not sure it'd be all that... ... but we could make the supreme effort in that direction.

 

I'm not entirely convinced documentation is the answer but it seems a waste to not utilize what we already have and what has been proven to work. (Conservation and Recycling I suppose it could be called!)

 

So far the fans aren't rattling the cages to get into this thing but based off the feedback thus far we've got a look at one possible future of the Tutorials Forum:

(Slightly reworded)

 

- Spur discussions and reveal resources.

- Bring together existing tutes on a given subject.

- Archive, sort and organize information to help A:M Users get up to speed.

- Demonstrate features and benefits through a comparison of how things get done by diverse users.

- Inspire and educate those who 'just don't know' (Give users a chance to see the information they don't know)

 

Did I miss anything?

 

That gives us a general direction.

Not bad so far!

[MJL]

A possible place to start might be creating a "set". Terrain, ground plane (textured pavement, grassy meadow, etc.), background or backdrop, sky or skydome. Just a thought.

[Rodney]

A possible place to start might be creating a "set". Terrain, ground plane (textured pavement, grassy meadow, etc.), background or backdrop, sky or skydome. Just a thought.

 

Hmmm... I think I understand what you are saying but I'm trying to imagine how this would work.

 

The goal isn't to create new things as much as collect information that already exists.

Once a theme kicks in people can then discuss, fill in any gaps and plus things up.

 

I'll have to look and see how many resources we can gather on buidling sets. I do recall a few.

Tutorials don't have to fit any theme to be posted of course.

 

 

For those looking in I recommend using Wink* to record your screen while you work.

Its pretty easy to create interactive tutorials with that.

*Wink is for recording only on a PC. I'm not sure what to recommend for the Mac. Sorry.

[HomeSlice]

That's a great idea Rodney. Do you have control of the Tutorials forum? One simple thing that would help is to move all the posts asking for a tutorial or help on some subject to somewhere else. That way it would be much easier to browse through the list in the Tutorials forum looking for what you need.

 

Another organizational idea is to separate tutorials with content that was uploaded to the forum from tutorials with content hosted somewhere else. It is kind of frustrating to click on a link in a tutorial (say a project file so you can follow along) only to be told that the file cannot be found. If I knew I was in the "Remotely Hosted" tutorials section, at least I wouldn't be quite as surprised when something like that happens.

[Rodney]

Do you have control of the Tutorials forum?

 

Moderator duties don't allow creation of new subforums. That's Admin stuff.

 

In the Tutorials forum I can:

Edit titles to help sort and organize posts.

Edit posts to clarify or update links.

Close or Remove topics that are obsolete.

 

Performing these tasks and keeping info current can help topics show up when launching a forum search. Of course anyone can edit their own posts to keep their info/links current.

 

This effort would link into other subforums that already have a special focus (Feature Focus, Radiosity etc. etc).

 

Topics that bump up are generally the most current.

[phatso]

somebody mentioned skydome. I've never done that. An anthology of set creation tutes would be a good place to start.

[Rodney]

Thats two (you and Myron) in favor of launching a 'Set' theme.

As I told Myron I'll investigate what resources are available.

If there are adequate resources available we'll put that on our schedule.

 

So, 'Sets' or something related. (That is a very broad category BTW... Skydomes are but one subset out of entirely too many in that thing)

 

But... that is a starting place.

 

That'd get us through the first month.

Anything else?

 

Perhaps 'Sets' would run as the general theme for many months and Skydomes would have the spotlight one month?

[Rodney]

While no one has mentioned it specifically here, I've been getting a vibe for some time (years?) that some additional focus on Modeling techniques and tools used in A:M would be a topic of interest. Like 'Sets'... 'Modeling' is a huge theme.

 

Surely no one thinks they know everything there is to know about Modeling and yet its a subject of interest to everyone who has ever launched A:M. Perhaps best of all... everyone can contribute to that theme. Everyone has or is developing their own favorite modeling techniques.

 

As Modeling falls into the subset of 'Sets' (placing objects into our scenes) it might set the stage for success in our effort?

 

I'm leaning toward 'Modeling Techniques' as the inaugural theme.

[mouseman]

There used to be Sherwood's Forest, then ARM. Both of these approaches linked to tutorials that were hosted elsewhere, which would become stale or broken and out of date. We now have this forum for tutorials, run by Rodney. Rodney puts a lot of work into organizing tutorials there. The problem with forums is that they are not the ideal structure for holding tutorial information. I think we should use the tutorial forum as more of a blog, where Rodney talks about new tutorials that exist, answers questions, etc., and people post requests and suggestions for new tutorials. Each tutorial could be linked to its own thread, as well.

 

Where should the tutorials go? I think they should be hosted in the Wiki. The wiki was originally used for TWO, and is now stale and unused. We should take it over for tutorials. (BTW, is there a single-sign-in for forum and Wiki?) We should encourage everyone that creates tutorials to put them there, and announce them in the forum. Rodney (with help from whoever) can focus on organizing them, categorizing them and creating index pages, etc., and creating "features" highlighting various sections and encouraging discussion. One huge benefit is that because tutorials can be hosted in the Wiki, we don't have to worry about the hosting site going away and dying. Also, they can be updated by nearly anyone when they get out of date.

 

The tutorials in the wiki would be a place where we (or a mentor, another idea that is percolating in my brain that may come to light some day) can direct people after they are done with TAoAM. The Door Is Shut is probably one of the most important tutorials in TAoAM. What are some follow-up tutorials? Two examples stolen from Glen Keane: "An old man struggles to lift himself out of a chair, loses strength, gives up and then falls back into the chair." "A woman at the supermarket is looking the other way, reaches to her shopping cart, and keeps reaching when she doesn't feel it. She looks back, notices it rolling away with her baby, and runs to catch it."

 

The only major problem with the idea is 1. Does everyone think it's a good idea? and 2. Does it fit in with what Hash, Inc. wants to do? and 3. How do we get everything in there? I've been excited about this idea for a long time, and have dropped a couple of small hints to various people, and just thought I'd propose the idea.

 

Anyway, what do you guys think?

[Rodney]

Apologies for the long length of this post.

Thanks for adding in your thoughts and discussing the possibilities.

 

Here are my thoughts related to your post:

 

 

Both of these approaches linked to tutorials that were hosted elsewhere, which would become stale or broken and out of date.

 

I don't want to in any way downplay the contributions of Jim Sherwood, Vernon Zehr or those that hosted tutorials (theirs or others). We wouldn't be where we are today without their efforts.

 

There are a host of reasons website fade away. Often people just move and the old sites go away. Maintaining such sites is usually a labor of love (with emphasis on the labor).

 

We now have this forum for tutorials, run by Rodney.

Rodney puts a lot of work into organizing tutorials there. The problem with forums is that they are not the ideal structure for holding tutorial information.

 

I'm in an awkward place of disagreeing with you here.

Thus far the forum has offered a more permanent place to host tutorials than any other historically.

There is one exception that I can think of; websites hosted by Hash Inc.

 

I've found Forums are in many ways more ideal than wikis, websites and ftp download areas but that's debateable.

 

...and make no mistake about it, Hash Inc runs this forum. I'm just a squatter in this space.

 

I think we should use the tutorial forum as more of a blog, where Rodney talks about new tutorials that exist, answers questions, etc., and people post requests and suggestions for new tutorials. Each tutorial could be linked to its own thread, as well.

 

I agree with everything you say here except I would de-emphasis or remove the word 'new' as well as my role in this space. My knowledge of almost any subject is quickly depleted and error prone at best. That's another reason why I like to link to other peoples resources... they are more knowledgeable on the subject and I know this very well!

 

When someone creates a -new- tutorial I will always be happy to link to it but to ask anyone to create a new tutorial without offering something in advance (money... another contribution... whatever) I think is a bit beyond the scope of our effort here.

 

Make no mistake about it... we ARE very interested in people creating new tutorials but what we see historically in tutorials is offered from a special breed of A:M User. The tutorials that exist already are created by those who are apt to teach and willing to make that effort freely. Its not enough to be a consumer in this space. My advice... before anyone even thinks about requesting a tutorial... contribute something first. It doesn't have to be perfect... it doesn't even have to be correct. It might just be encouragement, or a question or a comment that furthers a discussion or helps someone overcome an obstacle in their way. Its a proven fact, the quickest way to get a new tutorial is to create one yourself!

 

We serve the creative types who contribute in this space and it is truly an understatement that their time and effort on our behalf is greatly appreciated. I thank them on behalf of generations of A:M Users past, present and future.

 

Where should the tutorials go? I think they should be hosted in the Wiki. The wiki was originally used for TWO, and is now stale and unused.

 

The TWO wiki is only stale because Martin and I stopped updating it. So, we are to blame.

For my part, the reason I stopped updating it was that I thought it was fairly complete.

If I had recieved even one request to keep updating it... I'd still be typing TWO stuff in there.

It was a fun and rewarding experience. I learned a lot.

 

I think I'll go out on a limb and suggest if the wiki is used for anything at this time is should be to promote 'Scarecrow of Oz'. I'm not opposed to melding links and information about A:M and its features with SO in the wiki........ in fact I'd volunteer for that today. But I think, and this is an important 'but I think", the emphasis should properly emphasize TWO and SO... not A:M's features. (I hope thats an acceptable distinction?)

 

We should take it over for tutorials.

 

I'd be more convinced if a few more people contributed tutorials here in the forum first. If this forum is a resounding success it can't help but spill over into other areas as well.

 

Other A:M wikis have not been very successful to date.

 

(BTW, is there a single-sign-in for forum and Wiki?)

 

I think that was the case before... I'd have to investigate.

Easy enough to test.

 

We should encourage everyone that creates tutorials to put them there, and announce them in the forum.

 

I'm going to play skeptic here. Bear with me.

I mean no slight on A:M users but... the majority of A:M users can't even edit their own forum posts. I'm not sure how many are up to editing a wiki. In favor of the idea... I would guess the knowledge and ability to do such editing increases every day.

 

I'm not sure what attachments/file types can be uploaded to the wiki.

Many of the images and movies linked in the TWO wiki are hosted here in the forum.

They were linked in from here to the wiki for several reasons:

- So that multiple images wouldn't fill up Hash Inc's servers

- The thumbnail images were all preformatted to a manageable size (and could point to the full size image just by removing "_thumb" from the end of the URL... so... I got two images for the price of one link).

- I figured the forum would be around longer than other sites so links wouldn't break

- Its was easier to link to the forum versus upload

- Much of the information was already collected (and formatted) in the forum

 

Rodney (with help from whoever) can focus on organizing them, categorizing them and creating index pages, etc., and creating "features" highlighting various sections and encouraging discussion.

 

I'm easily won over.

Now we've just gotta figure out who 'whoever' is.

Need names, phone numbers and shoe size please.

 

One huge benefit is that because tutorials can be hosted in the Wiki, we don't have to worry about the hosting site going away and dying. Also, they can be updated by nearly anyone when they get out of date.

 

There are downsides to wiki maintenance. The primary one is... that infernal maintenance.

 

The tutorials in the wiki would be a place where we (or a mentor, another idea that is percolating in my brain that may come to light some day) can direct people after they are done with TAoAM. The Door Is Shut is probably one of the most important tutorials in TAoAM. What are some follow-up tutorials? Two examples stolen from Glen Keane: "An old man struggles to lift himself out of a chair, loses strength, gives up and then falls back into the chair." "A woman at the supermarket is looking the other way, reaches to her shopping cart, and keeps reaching when she doesn't feel it. She looks back, notices it rolling away with her baby, and runs to catch it."

 

Here I think we've strayed away from the Tutorials area into something else.

The idea of a Mentorship program was floated before but its champions have long since faded away.

 

I think its a great idea but there aren't a lot of people offering free mentorship these days. Those that are... keep pretty busy already. If you want to get mentored... or offer mentorship... I heartily recommend getting involved in 'Scarecrow of Oz'. Thats the best thing going in A:M Mentorship these days.

[Rodney]

continued...

 

The only major problem with the idea is 1. Does everyone think it's a good idea? and 2. Does it fit in with what Hash, Inc. wants to do?idea. and 3. How do we get everything in there? I've been excited about this idea for a long time, and have dropped a couple of small hints to various people, and just thought I'd propose the

 

Anyway, what do you guys think?

 

1. Good Idea?

 

Heck, I'm easy. I think just about everything is a good idea.

Problem is... every good idea is not necessarily implementable.

How do we implement... and sustain.

This Tutorials forum is not only implemented... its still being maintained.

 

2. Does it fit in with what Hash, Inc. wants to do?

 

I can't speak for Hash Inc but keep in mind... they aren't in the tutorial business. Free tutorials is all us baby! They have provided us with this forum and I'd like to leverage it better.

 

3. How do we get everything in there?

 

Hey, its your idea. If you don't know..!

 

I've been excited about this idea for a long time

 

Stay excited. Thats how we can assure success in the initial effort.

What to do when the excitement fades... that's my worry.

Lets not create something that no one wants or is interesed in maintaining. (This goes double for the ideas I've suggested!)

 

Good ideas may need to be adjusted to fit but they never go away.

[mouseman]

I got a "You have posted more than the allowed number of quoted blocks of text" message, so I'm formatting my previous comments and Rodney's previous comments as indicated. My turn to apologize for the long post.

 

Both of these approaches linked to tutorials that were hosted elsewhere, which would become stale or broken and out of date.

... Maintaining such sites is usually a labor of love (with emphasis on the labor).

Usually that burden is borne by a single person. As you mentioned, life happens, and people can't and won't always be available, and eventually their priorities will change. We need both scalability and succession plans, without a single point of failure.

 

... Rodney puts a lot of work into organizing tutorials there. The problem with forums is that they are not the ideal structure for holding tutorial information.

I'm in an awkward place of disagreeing with you here.

Thus far the forum has offered a more permanent place to host tutorials than any other historically.

Yes, agreed, it is the most permanent source we have (save the Hash web site). It has some disadvantages, however, that are totally out of your control. 1. Tutorials move down in the list, and older tutorials are difficult to find. 2. You can get around #1 by pinning articles, but you can't pin everything. 3. Search is not the easiest way to find tutorials. 4. Only the original poster (and perhaps a forum admin) can edit a post, make corrections, and add to it. 5. Commentary and information is mingled together in responses, and it's hard to find the information.

 

Dealing with #3 is usually done with index/directory pages (manually maintained) and categories (links to a category page automatically put it in that category, like automatic reverse indexes). I think you've tried to create index posts in the forums in a number of cases.

 

I think we should use the tutorial forum as more of a blog, where Rodney talks about new tutorials that exist, answers questions, etc. ...

I agree with everything you say here except I would de-emphasis or remove the word 'new' as well as my role in this space. My knowledge of almost any subject is quickly depleted and error prone at best.

The thing is, you have an incredible level of fascination and curiosity about A:M. You care about the community and you know the potential of A:M. I didn't mean to say that you should be creating the new tutorials, but you have to admit, you can't help but comment on new content that people post! It's in your blood!

 

we ARE very interested in people creating new tutorials but what we see historically in tutorials is offered from a special breed of A:M User. ... My advice... before anyone even thinks about requesting a tutorial... contribute something first. It doesn't have to be perfect... it doesn't even have to be correct.

It's easy to add a forum post describing what you did to accomplish something, but in a week it will have fallen down in the forum list and be below the fold or on later pages. With a wiki, I think there is a little more feeling of permanence. You're doing something for posterity, especially if it gets categorized and linked in sensibly.

 

Where should the tutorials go? I think they should be hosted in the Wiki. The wiki was originally used for TWO, and is now stale and unused.

The TWO wiki is only stale because Martin and I stopped updating it. So, we are to blame.

TWO is done for the most part, so it makes sense that the TWO wiki content stops getting updated. It doesn't make sense to update things that don't need updating!

 

I think I'll go out on a limb and suggest if the wiki is used for anything at this time is should be to promote 'Scarecrow of Oz'. I'm not opposed to melding links and information about A:M and its features with SO in the wiki........

Adding SO information to the wiki is probably a separate discussion, but I don't think they are mutually exclusive. Wikis are designed to hold lots of information.

 

We should encourage everyone that creates tutorials to put them there, and announce them in the forum.

I'm going to play skeptic here. Bear with me.

I mean no slight on A:M users but... the majority of A:M users can't even edit their own forum posts. I'm not sure how many are up to editing a wiki. In favor of the idea... I would guess the knowledge and ability to do such editing increases every day.

That's a very good point. But maybe people would get it over time? It is relatively easy to add another sentence or correct spelling on a wiki. If you see how a link is done elsewhere in a post, you should be able to easily add another link.

 

I'm not sure what attachments/file types can be uploaded to the wiki.

Many of the images and movies linked in the TWO wiki are hosted here in the forum.

Default preferred and blacklisted file types in MediaWiki. Other types merely get a warning. They point out the file to change.

 

Uploading is not as easy, and as you mention there doesn't appear to be the thumbnail feature.

 

One huge benefit is that because tutorials can be hosted in the Wiki, we don't have to worry about the hosting site going away and dying. Also, they can be updated by nearly anyone when they get out of date.

There are downsides to wiki maintenance. The primary one is... that infernal maintenance.

The main thing is anyone can jump in and fix or add something. And if it is not maintained as well as it should be, we're hopefully no worse off than the forums.

 

The tutorials in the wiki would be a place where we (or a mentor, another idea that is percolating in my brain that may come to light some day) can direct people after they are done with TAoAM.

Here I think we've strayed away from the Tutorials area into something else.

The idea of a Mentorship program was floated before but its champions have long since faded away.

Yes, that's another topic. Like this idea for having tutorials in the wiki, success/failure would all depend on the details.

 

1. Good Idea?

How do we implement... and sustain.

This Tutorials forum is not only implemented... its still being maintained.

The only issues are the ones I mentioned above.

 

3. How do we get everything in there?

Hey, its your idea. If you don't know..!

I think the options are:

1. Just have people put new ideas there.

2. A concerted effort to go through forum posts, get permission from the authors, and copy content over.

 

I've been excited about this idea for a long time

What to do when the excitement fades... that's my worry.

Lets not create something that no one wants or is interesed in maintaining. (This goes double for the ideas I've suggested!)

I agree.

 

Summary

I don't think we have enough information to know whether this is a good idea or not. As long as you don't think it's a problem to add non-TWO information to the wiki, maybe we can try coming in the back door, and add some content there to see how it works. I have an idea for some content that could go in the wiki (links to a bunch of videos of, by and about animators). It's not really tutorial information, but it falls along the lines of "wow, this makes me want to animate" or "this tells me how to animate better". Maybe I can write up and post a tutorial (how I did the title screen in my short film). Based on that, we'll see how it goes?

[Rodney]

Continuing the discussion...

 

General Point of contention:

"The problem with forums is that they are not the ideal structure for holding tutorial information."

"Thus far the forum has offered a more permanent place to host tutorials than any other historically."

Yes, agreed, it is the most permanent source we have (save the Hash web site). It has some disadvantages, however, that are totally out of your control.

 

1. Tutorials move down in the list, and older tutorials are difficult to find.

 

I'm having a hard time seeing this post prioritization as a disadvantage.

Is it really a disadvantage if the most popular information stays at the top of the list?

 

Even wikis cannot keep all information in the spotlight. Something has to give.

Most wikis have a search function to assist with finding information.

Searching is something New User should learn to use early and often as it'll help their organizational skills.

 

I think that like forum posts in general, older tutorials are harder to find because their titles don't always effectively convey what can be found inside. A topic titled "Boolean cutters" is going to help everyone interested in Booleans find it while one titled, "Hey check this out!" is going to be missed 9.999...% of the time.

 

Of course there are many reasons why Tutorials can be hard to find.

Sites such as Sherwood's Forest and the A.R.M. were designed to help people find their subject of interest.

 

It should be noted that creating a new site (wiki, forum or otherwise) is something beyond what the focus is here. I would volunteer to work on a 'Scarecrow of Oz' site but I wouldn't care to manage one on tutorials. 'Scarecrow of Oz' is a project with a end in sight. Tutorials on the other hand...

 

 

2. You can get around #1 by pinning articles, but you can't pin everything.

 

There is an ongoing debate on the usefulness of pinning topics.

One side states pinned topics get ignored more often.

One side states pinning topics get information noticed.

Apparently evidence exists to support both sides.

My own take on it is that the fewer pinned topics the better. It seems that if you pin more than three you might as well have pinned zero.

 

3. Search is not the easiest way to find tutorials.

 

I can't speak for others but Search is generally how I find them.

If I can't find them via search I generally don't find them.

In those cases...other people often post links to them... so I do eventually find them.

 

4. Only the original poster (and perhaps a forum admin) can edit a post, make corrections, and add to it.

 

I have no problem with this as it maintains the integrity of the original post.

Can you imagine what would happen if I 'corrected' a tutorial by Yves Poissant?

(Well for one thing... I'd have to be very careful!!!)

 

Editing other people's posts is a dangerous proposition.

I think I'd prefer to repackage and redistribute.

 

In the editing one might not have changed anything of substance but its the perception that'll kill you.

This problem is multiplied and inherent with wikis.

Barring Admin intervention, in a wiki, whomever is more persisent will have their information stick.

 

Side note: When I took over the TWO wiki I took a more graphical approach than the previous Admin. I wanted to make it link-centric and could get away with that as this Forum has a lot of linkability. A Tutorial Wiki that didn't link into this forum would not work well in my opinion.

 

I feel it is primarily the authors responsibility to maintain their own posts.

Should the author stop doing that then an Admin might have to step up to the task.

 

 

5. Commentary and information is mingled together in responses, and it's hard to find the information.

 

Agreed. I should note that I see the first part of #5 as a good thing. The more commentary and information mingled... the more likely the tutorial has met its goal.

 

Hard to find information... thats another thing.

This is a conditioned response and a matter of organization. I'm a fan of keeping the primary Tutorial in (or beginning at) the first post in each topic. This requires the author edit their posts.

 

But... as long as the information is there -somewhere- the author has fulfilled their role.

Those seeking the information have their role too!

 

I've debated deleting the responses that don't further the discussion(notes of thanks for the tutorials etc.) but realize I'm not the best qualified to do that. Worse, removing those things destroys useful information and feedback. Then the information just becomes a FAQ. (I did something like this with Useful Links before and I think it helped kill it off). It no doubt made me look the egomaniac as every post in the topic was by me.

 

Lesson learned: If you edit someone they will hate thee.

 

Its probably better to recollect the useful information and repost it under a new topic with a link to the old.

 

(I've read your other responses but don't want to drone on. More later...)

[mouseman]

I got wild and crazy and posted this list of animation lectures/interviews in the wiki.

[mouseman]

1. Tutorials move down in the list, and older tutorials are difficult to find.

I'm having a hard time seeing this post prioritization as a disadvantage.

Is it really a disadvantage if the most popular information stays at the top of the list?

I'd love never having to see another "bump" response. The forum system works well for keeping most responded to information at the top, but good reference information falls down.

 

Even wikis cannot keep all information in the spotlight. Something has to give.

Most wikis have a search function to assist with finding information.

Searching is something New User should learn to use early and often as it'll help their organizational skills.

...

Sites such as Sherwood's Forest and the A.R.M. were designed to help people find their subject of interest.

I've always had problems with the forum's search, for some reason. For example, today I had a hard time finding Caroline's NewtonPhysics Cosmic Bowling post. (Turned out it wasn't a post, but just a response in the CosmicBowling post.) It might just be my own problem.

 

Wikis have categories, and there are often general topics that include links to more specific topics that help organize things. Both Sherwood's Forest (what I remember of it) and ARM did a pretty decent job of categorizing.

 

It should be noted that creating a new site (wiki, forum or otherwise) is something beyond what the focus is here. I would volunteer to work on a 'Scarecrow of Oz' site but I wouldn't care to manage one on tutorials. 'Scarecrow of Oz' is a project with a end in sight. Tutorials on the other hand...

My thought was only that it might make things easier to organize and find with the same or less amount of ongoing work. If the assumption of "same or less amount of work" is wrong, then the cost/benefit equation changes.

 

4. Only the original poster (and perhaps a forum admin) can edit a post, make corrections, and add to it.

I have no problem with this as it maintains the integrity of the original post.

Can you imagine what would happen if I 'corrected' a tutorial by Yves Poissant?

(Well for one thing... I'd have to be very careful!!!)

Editing other people's posts is a dangerous proposition.

I think I'd prefer to repackage and redistribute.

...

A Tutorial Wiki that didn't link into this forum would not work well in my opinion.

Most Wikis that I've seen are a different philosophy than Forums. In a Forum, the assumptions are "I said what I said, and I don't want anyone else to say I said otherwise". In a Wiki, it is usually intended as a repository for information. Information is owned by the commons, and is unattributed except for the history. People come in and (even with good intentions) mess things up. But others come in later and fix it. It's a different mindset. I can't answer whether people here would be able to adapt to it, and the only way to know for sure would be to try it. Also, sometimes someone very smart doesn't know how to state something in a way that can be understood; and not every author is a native speaker of English.

 

If we get someone that is annoying, then I think there are features to let admins lock particular pages or restrict users (I don't know what they are). However, that is an additional level of administration, and there are the issues of cost/benefit analysis plus is anyone really willing to do it.

 

I agree that linking between the Wiki and the Forum would be a good thing. When someone created a tutorial in the Wiki, they could post a forum message for discussion and cross-post. (Another option, though, is that the each Wiki page has a discussion page attached to it, but I don't think it's as nice for supporting discussion as a real Forum like this one.)

 

I've debated deleting the responses that don't further the discussion(notes of thanks for the tutorials etc.) but realize I'm not the best qualified to do that. Worse, removing those things destroys useful information and feedback. Then the information just becomes a FAQ. (I did something like this with Useful Links before and I think it helped kill it off). It no doubt made me look the egomaniac as every post in the topic was by me.

 

Lesson learned: If you edit someone they will hate thee.

Risking going against some evidence I wrote above ... The Portland Pattern Repository (the fist wiki ever, which was created by Ward Cunningham) often uses the Wiki as a message board, and Ward encourages people to "refactor" posts after they get too big, deleting irrelevant and redundant information and summarizing it. I've never been brave enough to do it, as I've had the same fear you mention. But my fear comes from it being treated like a message board, where people attribute themselves to the things they say.

[Rodney]

I don't know enough to know here Chris.

This might be mostly what I term 'polarity'. I'm just not fully in sync with the idea. That doesn't mean it won't work. It just means I need a solid hook (I don't particularly need the juicy worm but others will).

 

I would think that a wiki might serve pretty well as a digital newspaper.

Something everyone would rush to add their latest news to? (Alternatively, editor or reporter types could publish the news)

 

Want to make the front page? ...visit and edit the wiki more often!

Publish your work.

 

I know it sounds droll... but there has to be a hook.

[mouseman]

I basically thought that if it were a good idea, there might be some mutual benefit in rolling it out along with monthly feature/focus articles. (The monthly feature/focus article thing sounds like a really good thing, btw.) However, using the wiki is too big of a can of worms to be thinking about on top of the monthly feature/focus. It's difficult to consider a big change when you're trying to get something else accomplished. (Plus big changes often come across as negative towards existing accomplishments even when they are intended to synthesize the best parts of all that's come before, as in "standing on the shoulders of giants".) Thanks for thinking through the issues and helping me come to that conclusion! I am impressed by your patience!

 

Since it seems like it's not a problem to add content to the wiki either technically or pragmatically, I'd like to try to add some stuff there in a complementary fashion to the existing forums. Baby steps. If people see the merit, it will eventually have a life of its own; if not then it will probably die quietly.

[Rodney]

Since it seems like it's not a problem to add content to the wiki either technically or pragmatically, I'd like to try to add some stuff there in a complementary fashion to the existing forums. Baby steps. If people see the merit, it will eventually have a life of its own; if not then it will probably die quietly.

 

If you can find one person who supports and will contribute regularly to the idea you've got a beginning. Otherwise you've got a blog.

 

Perhaps this'll be a bliki or a wog?

 

Fine Print

The only truly must-have requirements to get your project off the ground is a current subscription to A:M and a green light from Martin. If you aren't current... I wouldn't start the project.

[Rodney]

(Random thoughts)

 

I followed the link to the wiki you posted. Very interesting content.

 

I ran into some interesting topics and thought I'd comment here on one.

The following applies to theory in coding programs but it can apply in some way to our efforts as well. The concept is:

 

YouArentGonnaNeedIt

 

Its a belief that programmers shouldn't code things into their programs based on what might be needed to be added in the future. Rather, it is thought that effort should focus on what is needed right now. Because... things change... and inevitably you find out you didn't need it.

 

Now don't get me wrong here.

If the words themselves applied universally nothing would ever get done.

But there are concepts of teamwork and timeliness as well as known requirements involved.

It is implicit team members are working toward the same or similar goals.

 

In programming a wiki one must ask what purpose(s) it serves to benefit all.

It seems to return to the primary question: "What is required right now?"

[Rodney]

(More internal dialogue)

 

I must thank you again for that link.

Not so much from the standpoint that it is a wiki... which is a nice example... but for the information it contains. The ideas presented are thought provoking and work outside of programming code. The concepts and theories can be applied elsewhere. They also mirror some of my interests in the subject of production and distribution as well as more immediate needs... such as maintaining my own areas of interest in the forum.

 

At a minimum it has helped to further clarify the matter of what to do with the Tutorials Forum's focus. At this point there really isn't one.

 

I continue to be thankful for those that have collected their thoughts, procedures and images on the wide range of subject matter here. Without that much needed user based feedback we wouldn't have much else to work with.

 

To totally rewrite the steps of Extreme Programming into something that fits here:

1. Get the information to the intended recipient.
   
2. Know when you're done.
   
3. Set realistic expectations.
   
4. Finish the specific job you are on.
   
5. Observe and record the process for later recall.
   
6. Seek feedback.
   
7. Determine who uses your product/service.
   
8. Take what is learned and feed it back into the system.
   

(Probably lost some important stuff there... added a bit too... but there ya go.)