"Ebon: chapter 2, scene 4" - anime-style two-minute short

[Guest jandals]

Not... really. Could you give me an example?

Have you read this? It's what I though of when I read kattkieru's post

 

http://www.keithlango.com/tutorials/old/Le.../leadFollow.htm

[luckbat]

Yes I have. Lango's mainly talking about inertia and voluntary vs. involuntary movement, which I agree with 100 percent.

 

But I'm still not clear on what Katt is suggesting that I change.

[amarillospider]

positioning his head so that it would look correct in both camera angles.

 

The advantage of making the head angle work for both cameras is you only have to animate once. But if you aren't getting the results you want I'd suggest just having two seperate animation versions and cheat them to get the best head for each camera angle. It's not like you have to worry about film cost.

 

(everytime I post advice on your wip I hesitate because I'm pretty sure you have more film and theatre experience than me.)

 

-Alonso

[luckbat]

But you're giving me animation advice. My experience in that field is zilch.

[amarillospider]

Just something I've noticed with wrists: elbows tend to be looser than wrists. I'm thinking of the part where she's pointing, then rotates her hand around, I find I do that if I'm sitting and my elbow is supported by my stomach, but if I'm standing and my arm is not supported my hand falls down to my waste during the time my hand rotates over.

 

With the lipsynch I've had really good results creating lipsynch in a independent action and just dropping that action into the chor. In fact that's how I always do it. Lately I've been including small head nods (up and down) in my lipsynch action (ala Osipa) and they have also blended in well on top of the larger body movement. Whatever movement you make in an action is added on top of the chor action, so in the chor if the head is angled to the side, a little head nod would go on top of that, so the head would still be angled to the side but would nod as well.

 

looking good.

 

-Alonso

[kattkieru]

Heya,

 

I think I'm going to have to do a little demo animation to show you what I mean by "snappiness." It's a very hard thing to explain in just words.

 

Partially, this has to do with anticipation and holds. Right now a lot of your motions, not the Actions but the motions that make up the Actions, flow together too smoothly and a little too slowly. The way to fix this is to artificially add small holds. The holds sometimes only last a few frames, like 3 or 4, but the effect on the overall motion is subliminally large.

 

Like I said, I'll have to send a demonstration.

 

Another thing that might help would be keying more bones, like Jeff Lew does on his DVD.

 

Cheers on the full animatic.

[Dearmad]

Finally caught up on this thread- sorry I disappeared for so damned long, as stuff like this inspires me.

 

Your stress regarding output: LOL. I've got about 15 minutes or so done- maybe 18... and if I divide that by my time... I get 0.5 seconds per day across about 5 years... So dude, you're making me look like a lazy little bastard. Although my average has flaoted upward lately...

 

 

On lipsynch: I'd be careful approaching it as a "pass." You may end up having to re-animatre a lot of stuff needlessly once you place it in. Amarillospider mentioned a way to do it that I also heartily recommend. It makes lip synch so freaking easy. In fact all the LS I've done for my short so far has been enjoyable and not a chore- certainly not something to avoid until later, as I want to integrate it into the animation.

 

On the re-rig stuff:

Have you considered using improved/different rigs only on the shots where you found you neded them? That way you don't go back and have to reanimate stuff that was already OK before.... I have about 4-5 rigs for my puppets so far, and just use the updated versions of my rigs in the current shots. This way I move forward constantly. Just a thought.

 

On your stuff:

Nice nice nice. I'm not in the camp that would call for you to make your animation more "snappy" especially by relying on stronger pose holds... but you've seen my style (such as it is burdened by my lack of skill) and I'm more a straight-ahead type with some key poses thrown in that are critical.

 

I see overshoot. I see moving holds that are not overdone. I see enough anticiaption that my eyes track where you want me to.

 

For *me* the only element sorta missing is that the female character doesn't move strongly from her hips. Her center of gravity seems a little high, and so she seems to "float" a bit. Her walk hasn't enough "oomph" to it from the hips.

 

In the last vid posted, I love her "coward push" lean into him- and his reaction. She's totally cool, man...

 

Cinematography is nice- effective, keeps the focus well in place AND you frame things interestingly as well.

 

My ONE BIG gripe: LARGER UMBRELLAS!!! She wants *no* sun on her!

 

Ok, now take heart and keep your nose to the grindstone!

[kattkieru]

How's it going, Mike? Anything new to show us fans?

[luckbat]

I won't have much to show in the next update, I'm afraid, due to a hectic month that included a trip to San Francisco, a series of unsuccessful job interviews, and an in-progress move to a new apartment in Brooklyn.

 

Ah, what the hell. I'll just upload what I've got, since you asked. It's about eight more seconds of shot 11.

 

 

Hmm. No attachments on the new forums? What's that about?

 

Whatever. Here's a link instead:

Shot 11 (16 seconds)

[vf124]

Ah, what the hell. I'll just upload what I've got,

 

It's really coming into it ...

[amarillospider]

Looking good. If your still planning on adapting that little combat idea sequence I'd sent you I would suggest not having the guy swing under her arm when she grabs him since he's taller and bigger he should just grab her hand and with his strength be able to twist it as he turns to face her, forcing her to twist her body.

 

-Alonso

[luckbat]

Thanks. At the moment I've got him grabbing her right wrist with his right hand, yanking forward, shoving his left hand against her back, and twisting her right arm into an armlock.

[luckbat]

For reasons I already went into a few posts ago, I have no new footage to show this month, so I decided to make this post extra-long to compensate. Here's a breakdown of what's been going on:

 

To begin with, I did a full redesign of Monk's hands. Because it's adapted from Ebon's mesh, Monk's mesh is a little... off in some areas, notably the fingers, which were too rounded and slender for my taste. The Bruce Timm style that I've been emulating uses very squared-off fingers, so I decided it was finally time for a re-splining. I may have overdone it, actually--from some angles he looks like an Autobot. I'll have to see how it looks in motion.

 

Next, since I was already redoing the mesh, I decided to address the other main area I've been disappointed with: Monk's cheekbones. Designing models for toon rendering is a tricky business. Many of the techniques that go into doing smooth, realistic modeling fly out the window when toon lines are involved. Whereas other Hashers are doing their best to eliminate creases and wrinkles, I spend my time trying to create them--at least in certain places--since the toon renderer draws toon lines at areas of maximum creasage.

 

In order to get more prominent cheekbones on Monk, I completely resplined the sides of his face and jaw to minimize five-point patches (which wreak havoc on toon shading). As you can see, the curved line often used to define the cheeks of male cartoon characters now appears on Monk's face as well. Shadows will likely also see some improvement from the new mesh.

 

Finally I moved on to the "fight scene," although honestly it's really more like a brief scuffle (don't get your hopes up, folks). While it was fun to finally do some real full-body animation, minimizing model intersections is proving to be a nightmare. These models have a limited range of motion due to their cartoonish anatomy and my limited rigging experience, and getting their arms to stop constantly passing through their own ribcages is a chore.

 

Speaking of range of motion, I'm back to re-rigging the cloak again, as my previous Smartskin work was never designed to accommodate things like armlocks or yanked limbs. It's not that I didn't realize what I'd be animating, just that I didn't anticipate the extreme poses I'd be having to make.

 

I know what you're thinking. Hey, sounds like a job for SimCloth, right? Right. Unfortunately, there's a reason we haven't seen anyone using SimCloth outside of a few short test clips: it just isn't up to the job yet. Supposedly the next few years of A:M's development will revolve around the needs of the Tin Woodsman of Oz project, so I'd expect SimCloth to get some major attention from the Hash team in 2006. For the time being, though, it just can't keep up with the sudden movements my characters are making. Believe me, I spent three whole days playing with all the SimCloth settings and re-calculating. Over, and over again. I really wanted to have something cool to show you guys for all my efforts, but unless you think watching Ebon's cloak crumple up like tinfoil is cool, no dice.

 

So there you have it. New head, new hands, more cloak Smartskin, and a lot of failed SimCloth tests. I'm about halfway through choreographing the "fight scene," and may have a rough render to showcase in a few weeks or so. Thanks for reading.

[modernhorse]

Mike - Thanks for continuing to update us on your fantastic work. I find these long term and grande projects (like yours, Smudge's, and Dearmad's) very motivating.

 

As far as the updates go, when I look at his cheeks (in the posted pic the right cheek) it appears almost like he's got a growth on his face. I don't mean any disrespect at all, it's just what I see.

 

Best of luck with the cloth - and the whole film.

 

..d

[amarillospider]

It doesn't look like a growth to me, just that the character is looking a little gaunt and his grandmother is going to want to fatten him up. The spline work looks great, but the cheekbones might be slightly over exagerated. Or maybe in motion they are less noticeable.

 

-Alonso

[kattkieru]

Personally I love the new cheeks and the fingers. (Definitely not Optimus Prime yet.) I think the cheekbones give him a more gaunt look, yes, but also a more edgy one. Almost distinguished. Since you're going for the Timm look I think what you've got now is a lot closer.

 

Can you post some closeups of the finger tips? They look really interesting. I don't think I've seen them done like that before.

[luckbat]

...it appears almost like he's got a growth on his face.

...the cheekbones might be slightly over exagerated.

 

Yeah, I can see what you're getting at. By sucking in the cheeks to get the toon effect I was after, I effectively made the cheekbones that much more prominent. Perhaps too much so. I'll look at the mesh from some other angles and see how I feel about it. Thanks for drawing my attention to it, Modernhorse.

 

Can you post some closeups of the finger tips? I don't think I've seen them done like that before.

 

Oh, okay. But only because I'm shamelessly proud of myself for coming up with this little solution, which made all my spline reworking worthwhile. Check it out: angular enough to look cartoony, curved enough to look human. Simple, elegant, and the toon outlines render perfectly from any angle. Bliss.

[Dearmad]

Wow. That is an INTERESTING mesh. Are those two hooks at the finger tips? Obviously it reads OK in rendering, but that mesh would fall apart for me in 8.5. I wonder if the latest versions are subdividing better.

 

Fascinating mesh though. Can we see the top of it?

[luckbat]

Are those two hooks at the finger tips?

Nope. Look closer. They're valid four-point patches. No hooks or five-pointers needed, which is why the fingertips render so smoothly.

 

In fact, if it weren't for the need for extra geometry to define the knuckles, I could've gotten away with a simpler mesh on the rest of the hand...

[Guest jandals]

Great hands, Mike. I always end up with much denser meshes. I guess still don't trust low-spline densities. Things like this and the Hunter are good reminders of how much you can do with fewer splines.

[Dearmad]

Nice nice nice nice nice stuff...

 

funny I saw the angle between the patches and just though hook- but yeah it's pretty obivous a 4-point now that I LOOK at it. :o/

 

Thanks for the top view too.

[Guest william40]

VERY VERY COOL! I want MORE!

[luckbat]

Man! Did I really think I'd be done with this project by the end of the year? It didn't seem so unreasonable at the time. Two minutes, six months, what's the problem?

 

The problem, as established in previous posts, was the cloak. Even Pixar knew better than to give The Incredibles capes, but noooooo, I thought I could handle it. Well, guess what? It's been two and a half months since my last post, and all I've got to show for it are five seconds of new stuff.

 

Five. Seconds.

 

To be fair, it wasn't all a nightmare carnival of SimCloth simulation horrors. I did learn some great new techniques along the way. I finally switched to using low-res proxies for my animation, which sped things up considerably. Not because of the improved framerates (although those are nice too), but because the lack of character detail forces me to focus on movement and movement alone. And this next clip is all about the movement.

 

 

Sure, it's pretty rough. I've done minimal facial/hand animation, and I still have a lot of pass-throughs to iron out. The umbrellas have been temporarily hidden, and volumetrics have been disabled for rendering speed. But I wanted to get something up by the end of the year, so this is it. Enjoy.

 

[attachmentid=12819]

Oh, and it won't be two months before the next five-second clip. I promise.

shot_12.mov

[Dagooos]

I don't know how I missed this thread!

Nice work! I liked the camera work too. Its funny in cg you can move the camera easy,

anywhere or way you want but it doesn't seem to get used that much.

I thought it made the shot more dramatic and interesting.

[amarillospider]

Looks really great to me. For the amount of interaction, weight, arcs, and polish this has I am not at all suprised it tooks so long.

 

I suggest ignoring the cape until you're through with the animation, then fighting it after everything is set. (1 battle at a time) Didn't the umbrellas stick up behind her shoulders? Hope they aren't in the way of any arms.

 

Glad to see this piece is still going!

 

-Alonso

[luckbat]

Didn't the umbrellas stick up behind her shoulders? Hope they aren't in the way of any arms.

Not to worry. On the finished costume design, they slip into sheathes sewn into the back of the cloak.

 

Glad to see this piece is still going!

I'll never stop. This piece is giving me a serious workout, but it's making me a better animator.

[Dearmad]

I *love* this stuff. She kicks ass- I think I have a crush on her.

 

My only two crits:

His initial grab motion- reads a little slow to me. Seems like he could hit the grab on the same frame but start his motion to grab her about 3 frames later (assuming 24fps). Maybe even 4 with a strong overshoot (his hand) once he's got the grip. So it's really quick but with that strong initial pose and (again) a strong overshoot. Then his body begins the whip motion he does (like you have already- which, BTW is GREAT) and his hand pulls her that much harder from where it's at: a little further away from where he grabbed her.

 

Does that make sense?

 

Other one:

I'm not sure how she gets him to let go. Possible confusing issues: the camera makes a large move as she's doing something to the guy. I get that she IS going to do something, BTW (brilliant use of her eyes to telegraph that and let the viewer know something's up), but then I lose focus.

 

 

Oh and a personal wish: Can my sweety lower her left foot in the kick? Oh... about 6 inches lower...? Heh.

 

Ok, I'm sad, I know it.

[Rodney]

Very nice Mike!

As has been said the eyes telegraphing the move is a nice touch.

I assume there'll be some effects added as he impacts the wall. I'd guess this is part of the volumetrics/particles you mentioned. Even if only one tile fell off the wall that'd be something to give away the force of the impact. Not sure you intend the hit to be that powerful of course.

 

Very nice balancing of both characters throughout the scene. You give a sense of weight to your characters that really sells the shot.

 

Bravo!

Rodney

[Rodney]

Mike,

I went back and reviewed your posts and stumbled across this one:

 

Shaogue 's Demo movie

 

The link/attachment seems to have been busted during the forum update.

 

Any chance you could repair it or relink. I think I must have missed that one when I was on vacation in Japan. I'd love to see that.

 

Thanks!

Rodney

 

Edit: It appears other attachments in your WIP have suffered the same fate.

Maybe it is that MP4 thing. Hope you can fix them.

Edited January 2, 2006 by Rodney

[blakindigo2]

Nice to see the simcloth cape cell shaded (say that 5 times fast). When you were doing the cloth simulations on Friday, it looked like it was "almost" there, but now, with the cel shading, I really feel her kick.

 

The eye movement, camera work all sell the 'force' of the kick -- she has the reflexes of a meta-human.

 

I can tell you had a busy weekend...Happy New Year.

[luckbat]

I'm not sure how she gets him to let go. [...] I get that she IS going to do something, [...] but then I lose focus.

Yeah, it's pretty quick. What's supposed to be occurring is:

1. Monk gets Ebon in an armlock, then shifts his left hand to her right arm.
    
   
2. Ebon jerks backward, smashing her right shoulder into his chest,
    
   
3. She then just as quickly pulls forward, twisting herself around to get into a good kicking position.
    
   
4. Monk maintains his right-hand grip as long as he can, but once his arm reaches full extension, he's forced to let go.
   

While I was stepping through the sequence just now, I realized that I missed a contraint glitch on Monk's right IK hand, which makes it look like he simply lets go for no reason. I'm going to re-keyframe this part and hope that it makes the movement easier to read. Stay tuned.

 

Shaogue 's Demo movie

 

The link/attachment seems to have been busted during the forum update.

It seems like .avi and .mp4 files aren't allowed as attachments anymore. Fortunately, I kept ShaoGuee's original file and have replaced the missing .avi with a new .mov version. Thanks for bringing this to my attention.

 

Unfortunately, the other wayward clips may be gone for good, unless Hash still has them. I'll try e-mailing them to see what's up.

 

Even if only one tile fell off the wall that'd be something to give away the force of the impact. Not sure you intend the hit to be that powerful of course.

Yeah, conveying the force of the throw is a delicate balance. (Kattkieru told me he wanted to see impact craters and flying debris!) Any human thrown against a brick wall with enough force to visibly damage the wall is probably not going to be standing back up any time soon, if ever. And yet, I agree that the impact still needs a little "zing." To be honest, since the tiles are simply a decal, I don't know exactly how to distress the wall in the first place. I'm open to any suggestions.

 

Nice to see the simcloth cape cell shaded (say that 5 times fast). When you were doing the cloth simulations on Friday, it looked like it was "almost" there, but now, with the cel shading, I really feel her kick.

Thanks. Right now, the cloak is being lit by the same light as Ebon is, but that leaves it mostly in shadow. When I have more time, I'd like to create a separate light just for the cloak, so I can bring out a bit more detail.

[nf1nk]

One thought to make it look like he hit the wall harder, would be to add a paper towel dispenser to the wall and have it hang crooked on its mount after the near impact

(they are usualy held up by two screws and one could concievably be knocked loose)

One like this would be easy to model http://www.marketlabinc.com/products/categorydetail.cfm/717

And could add a touch of authenticity to an already stunning presentiation

[luckbat]

Quickie update of the previous clip. Here's what's new:

 

1. Monk now maintains his grip on Ebon's arm for a few frames longer before she pulls free.

 

2. When kicked, Monk's head snaps downward one frame later. The difference is nearly imperceptible, but I think it's an improvement.

 

3. I left Monk's hand in an open position as he goes down. More dramatic, no?

 

4. I added some extra shadowing as Monk hits the wall. This helps anchor him in space a little better.

 

5. I blended a small bit of a discarded SimCloth simulation into the main cloak choreography. This causes the cloak to billow upwards at the moment of impact, which helps keep Ebon's leg visible longer, and also helps "sell" the kick's power.

 

I haven't yet tried Dearmad's suggestion of speeding up the grab motion, but it's on my list.

Shot_12_take_2.mov

[blakindigo2]

4. I added some extra shadowing as Monk hits the wall. This helps anchor him in space a little better.

 

5. I blended a small bit of a discarded SimCloth simulation into the main cloak choreography. This causes the cloak to billow upwards at the moment of impact, which helps keep Ebon's leg visible longer, and also helps "sell" the kick's power.

 

 

These two tweaks add a HUGE difference. The SimCloth blending reveals the kick for, I guess 2 frames (?), but now that we can see it clearly... Woah!

 

The extra shadowing for Monk is a nice touch.

 

If the first section -- Monk grabbing her hand -- is sped up without using a close-up of his wrist lock, the scene might go by too quickly. Maybe a few frames, though I'm not sure.

[Slipin Lizard]

Man, this is one long thread. Just went through the whole thing, your work looks great. That last shot with the grab & kick looks terrific.

 

I read through your concerns about production. You're actually thinking like a producer, and realizing that your ablity to output material is finite. I think this is because you are working on your own. You work so far shows that you have the ability to perform at a professional level. You might want to start thinking about making the move to working in a team environment, either as a professional or just for fun.

 

I really feel for what you were talking about, the "1 sec per day" dilemma. But you have to remember that high quality animations, especially ones of any length, are usually done by a team. It's easy to convince yourself that you should be able to do it all on your own, after all, its just sitting down at a computer and doing the work. But if you want to see a big project realized, you're going to have to take it to the next level and work with a production team.

 

Look at the guy that did "Sky Captain and the World of Tommorow" or whatever it was. He got the green light to do that movie after showing a little 5 minute CG short that he did.

 

If you've got a great story to tell (and it looks like you do), then don't let the ligistics stand in your way. Your work looks so good, people could mistake it for something that was done by a team of professionals. But the amount of singular effort required is daunting. If your passion is to get your project and characters brought to life then DIVIDE and CONQUER!

 

Working in a team environment is so rewarding, and you'll benefit by other peoples input. Don't try and do it all yourself. Put together what you've got, add dialogue and ambient audio, show it to someone who can get the ball rolling in a BIG way and see what happens. You know, the industry is starving for HD content, so that's just one of a number of avenues you could try.

[luckbat]

That's very kind of you, Slipin. Believe me, nothing would make me happier than being able to turn Ebon into a team effort. For the time being, I'm going to focus on completing this current piece and using it to build interest, though I don't think there's much of a market for non-kids-oriented animation in this country.

 

Once this short is done (I'm guessing around April or so), I'll be posting more information about the expanded Ebon project, and making a pitch for advice and assistance from my fellow Hashers.

 

Thanks for your support, and thanks for slogging through the whole thread!

[Dhar]

I don't think there's much of a market for non-kids-oriented animation in this country.

 

I beg to differ. If there is no market then you create it. Remember the addage "If you build it they will come"?

 

Leave the marketing to the marketeers, you just keep creating this great artwork.

[smudge]

"If you build it they will come"?

This is so untrue it makes me want to laugh.

 

If one dose not have a particular market in mind for a project, and/or are not willing to throw one's self into marketing it, the only place it will ever show will be the creator's living room. Just because you put something out on the market, does not mean that folks will flock to it. More than likely they'll never know it exists.

 

Doing some market research and aiming for particular markets is good. Being a slave to marketing info is just as bad as having no info at all. It's a delicate line to walk.

 

With that said, there is a few different animation markets aimed at more mature views. Anime is one (and a strong one at that). The Film Festivals are another (think high-brow artsy). Sick & Twisted is a third. If there was no market at all, there would not be Aeon Flux (original), Ghost In The Shell, or Bill Pylmpton (sp) (who's on his, what, 4th feature length?). The trick is to identify the market you want to work in then tailoring your marketing accordingly.

 

With that said and outta the way, I've got a few critiques for you luckbat. Take them, or leave them as you see fit.

 

Overall:

First thing that struck me was that a lot of your motions were very linier in nature. Are you remembering to put in your archs? I don't believe Monk's pull forward due to his non-shifting waist. Also, you’re being very timid about animating your hands. But your overall timing and weight looks good. The kick was very well done, the impact believable eccept for a minor amount of followthrough.

 

Details:

Monk's arm grab & pull: The biggest issue here I think is that while Monk leans back in order to pull her forward, he does not shift his weight and as a result, he looks off balance (not something you want to be while pulling this sort of maneuver), as well as creating the illusion that she's passing through part of his chest. The main thing he's trying to do is transfer his momentum to her but its not currently reading. Try having him step back as he grabs her, transfer his weight to his newly planted rear foot, then have him come forward again to press into her and pin her as she hit's the sink.

 

Also, having him slightly (it does not have to be very much) push her hand away from his shoulder (as an anticipation) just as he starts the pull her forward would help create a arc swing so the motion isn't so linier.

 

As her hand is being pulled forward I'd think her fingers would want to splay out as they tried to follow the motion of the hand as it's being pulled. Think of it this way, His hand has suddenly become the driving force for her motion all of her actions until finally pinned are follow-through motions. After all, for a brief moment she is no-longer in control of her own actions, he is.

 

While her head is the last to recover, it currently comes back up into the same position/angel as it started. More than likely, it'd try to bobble to one side slightly. Again, watch and fallow your arcs. She might also turn her head ever so slightly when she tries to peer over her shoulder at Monk just before she wails on him. It will help give her a little more life.

 

As Monk hits the wall his arms stop their follow through and start leading the action. Let him start to peel away from the wall before he regains control over them to pull them in front to soften his landing before he hits the floor.

 

Sorry if this doesn't make much since. This is one of those times I really wished I had a way of marking up a movie file so you could see what I'm trying to describe....

 

Hope this helps. You are free to disregare any of this if you think I'm blowing it out my bum.

[luckbat]

Yeowch. The truth hurts.

 

"If you build it they will come"?

This is so untrue it makes me want to laugh.

 

If one does not have a particular market in mind for a project, and/or are not willing to throw one's self into marketing it, the only place it will ever show will be the creator's living room. Just because you put something out on the market, does not mean that folks will flock to it. More than likely they'll never know it exists.

I wasn't going to say anything, not wishing to seem ungracious, but yeah, that's pretty much the way it is. My best-case scenario for Ebon would basically consist of giving episodes away for free on the internet, then maybe selling a few dozen DVDs if it gets popular enough. It's never going to air on TV, and Universal is not going to be buying the rights to make the film version starring Thandie Newton as Ebon. On the plus side, my living room can hold a lot of people.

 

First thing that struck me was that a lot of your motions were very linier in nature. Are you remembering to put in your archs?

I thought I was. Alonso even complimented me on them. Where's Robcat? He'll sort this out.

 

I don't believe Monk's pull forward due to his non-shifting waist. [...] while Monk leans back in order to pull her forward, he does not shift his weight and as a result, he looks off balance

Agh, busted. I slacked off on animating Monk's waist bone on account of the tight camera framing, but clearly I was fooling no one but myself. Nailed!

 

Also, you’re being very timid about animating your hands.

That's putting it mildly. The hands, like the faces, are for the most part un-keyframed. (I really wanted to get something up on New Year's Day, so...)

 

Also, having him slightly (it does not have to be very much) push her hand away from his shoulder (as an anticipation) just as he starts the pull her forward would help create a arc swing so the motion isn't so linier.

You and Dearmad seem to be in agreement on this one.

 

As her hand is being pulled forward I'd think her fingers would want to splay out as they tried to follow the motion of the hand as it's being pulled.

Actually, I was thinking they'd curl into a fist during the latter half of the pull. I guess I'll have to try it both ways, and see.

 

While her head is the last to recover, it currently comes back up into the same position/angel as it started. More than likely, it'd try to bobble to one side slightly. Again, watch and follow your arcs. She might also turn her head ever so slightly when she tries to peer over her shoulder at Monk just before she wails on him. It will help give her a little more life.

Easy enough.

 

As Monk hits the wall his arms stop their follow through and start leading the action. Let him start to peel away from the wall before he regains control over them to pull them in front to soften his landing before he hits the floor.

Hmm. I just assumed his forearms would kinda bounce off the wall after the impact, but I'll give it a shot. Thanks for being so thorough, Smudge!

[Dhar]

"If you build it they will come"?

This is so untrue it makes me want to laugh.

 

If one dose not have a particular market in mind for a project, and/or are not willing to throw one's self into marketing it, the only place it will ever show will be the creator's living room. Just because you put something out on the market, does not mean that folks will flock to it. More than likely they'll never know it exists.

 

I could be wrong & am willing to accept it. I was looking at it from a pioneering spirit, a "salesman" approach. It isn't good enough to just have a good product, you gotta sell it, that's why i suggested "marketeers".

 

But, your point is well taken

[Slipin Lizard]

Just some thoughts on marketing. I spoke with a producer down in LA and though we were talking about documentaries a comment he made might be relevant here. He said that as far as marketing your idea the WORST thing you could do was have a complete, finished product (whaaa?). His take was that if you have your product all complete, and then go to shop it, you'll get offered very little for it because if it doesn't get bought up, what are you going to do with it? Apparently its very rare that projects done on spec actually break even, never mind make money.

 

He said the best way to get an idea sold was to do a no longer than 6 minute short, almost like a mini movie trailer to pitch the idea and present the overall feel of the project. This gives you something tangilble to show that the work is yours, and gives prospective producers a clear idea of what it is you are going for.

 

Again, we were talking about docs, but I think you could do the same with this project. Just make your short like you were going to but really leave it hanging so people are aching to see what happens. If you really had the idea to make a full length feature, you could just do a series of scenes and then pitch your over all story.

[luckbat]

"Ebon: Chapter 1" is likely to be about 6-7 minutes in length, so that works out nicely. I'll be launching that project as soon as I'm done with this one.

 

I still stand by my original assertion that a grim, violent cartoon like Ebon would be all but impossible to sell in the U.S.--not that that's going to stop me from working on it.

[smudge]

Yeowch. The truth hurts.

I didn't mean to hurt... really....

 

Seriously, luckbat, take is as a complement. I usually only critique like that if I feel the animation is worth it, can benefit from it, and that the artist reviving it is actually advanced enough both skill wise and character-wise to "take it". You've got some good stuff here. And I think you can make it spectacular if you push both it and yourself.

 

Even if this only "shows in your living room" you can honestly say that you've done it. You can't go forward and get better if you do nothing. But you are doing something, and your doing it well. GOGOGO!

 

you'll get offered very little for it because if it doesn't get bought up, what are you going to do with it?

This is true of all of Hollywood, not just documentaries. Most of it comes down to the distributors want a *very* large piece of the pie, but the only way they can demand a peice that big is if they funded it in the first place. Also, because they funded it, (and not the artist on spec), they want and have a say in how it all comes together. Unfortunately this smacks into too much of del Toro's problems with Hellboy; "can he have a dog? Can it be red? How 'bout a hell machine? Why does he have a tail? Can we get rid of that?" <-- quotes from execs repeated from del Toro during an interview.

 

It's rather a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" system. But there are ways around it and a lot of it does revolve around nitch markets. One of them, *is* for more violent animations aimed at older audiences, so you're doing all right.

[luckbat]

I didn't mean to hurt... really....

 

Seriously, luckbat, take it as a compliment.

Oh, no worries, I've got a thick skin. I used "the truth hurts" with a dual meaning in this case, referring mainly to my being caught slacking on the hip bone, but also to your redressing of Dhar's remarks.

 

...a lot of it does revolve around niche markets. One of them *is* for more violent animations aimed at older audiences, so you're doing all right.

That should help with distribution, but I don't expect it'll get me funding, though.

[robcat2075]

First thing that struck me was that a lot of your motions were very linier in nature. Are you remembering to put in your archs?

I thought I was. Alonso even complimented me on them. Where's Robcat? He'll sort this out.

 

Hmmm, my mouse was burning. Well, since we're being merciless...

 

If we track a few significant landmarks we can see several instances of linear motion (neck, waist, cam movement) and hard to follow paths (wrist, nose-head, ankle).

 

The thing i would most revise first is the "staging"... how it is presented to the camera. I had to watch it several times to figure out what the scuffle in the middle was all about; the key elements like the foot to the crotch are hard to see, perhaps because there is no visible set up to it, and because they don't appear as a clear form to the camera.

 

I think the camera is moving too much and is too rigourously tracking the subjects. Real life cameras lag their subject usually.

 

the punk's head smash into the camera works well, but the motion to get him there is taking too long. Too graceful. The tough guy's impact onthe wall is odd, perhaps because his torso, arms and head all arrive at the same time. How about Torso first , then head, then arms.

 

 

I like the "look" of this production. It's quite promising. I could wish for some "enhancements" to A:M cel-shading to improve the look. The characters look good too.

ebonmarked.mov

[robcat2075]

His take was that if you have your product all complete, and then go to shop it, you'll get offered very little for it because if it doesn't get bought up, what are you going to do with it?

 

I believe this, and it makes me think we should somehow try to shop TWO around when we get a trailer done, and not tell them that we were going to do it all anyway for next to nothing.

[luckbat]

I always love your diagrams, Robcat. I appreciate your taking the time. The "nose trail" in particular was a revelation.

 

the key elements like the foot to the crotch are hard to see, perhaps because there is no visible set up to it, and because they don't appear as a clear form to the camera.

I moved the cloak a bit in the revised version to show the leg better, though that's mostly cosmetic.

 

I don't understand what you mean by "no visible setup," though.

 

I could wish for some "enhancements" to A:M cel-shading to improve the look.

A while back, Martin mentioned that Hash is looking for a programmer to work on A:M's toon features. That's no guarantee of anything, but it's encouraging to know that they've got enhancements in mind, at least.

[3DArtZ]

Hey Luckbat,

Very nice looking, I could imagine seeing this on TV for sure!

I didn't read everything in the thread(s) on this....but It appears that the very begining of the action when the man turns and grabs the "mummy's?" arm is too slow....

I think the speed is just fine in the rest of the clip.

 

Mike Fitz

www.3dartz.com

[luckbat]

Thanks, Mike! It looks like I need to cut this shot together with the previous one before I can determine exactly how much the grabbing motion needs to be sped up.

 

So much to work on, this weekend...

 

P.S. She's actually a vampire. The bandages and the hood are for keeping out the sunlight. (And to make her look freaky.)

[robcat2075]

The "nose trail" in particular was a revelation.

Of course, part of what's confusing some of these paths is the camera motion. That is working against clarity.

 

the key elements like the foot to the crotch are hard to see, perhaps because there is no visible set up to it, and because they don't appear as a clear form to the camera.

I moved the cloak a bit in the revised version to show the leg better, though that's mostly cosmetic.

Still not clear enough. Iff all we saw was the silhouette of that character (which is really all the 1st x viewer in an audience will see) will we know what has happened? No; we really need to see a sudden move like that in profile to have any hope of catching it.

 

If this were a stereoscopic movie you might be able to stage these things going in and out of the camera as you do, but in 2D... very unlikely to get that to work.

 

I don't understand what you mean by "no visible setup," though.

By the time the camera swings around to see her leg, it's already inthe anticipation pose. We never see the anticipation move.