Negative render

[Simon Edmondson]

I'm still working on a stormy night but, thinking through ideas for the next one. So...

 

I seem to remember that a few years ago there was an option to render as a negative of the standard render ?

Is that still available and, if so, is it possible to combine it with a black and White/greyscale render ?

 

I'm presently working in 15J on OSX 10:68, although hope to move up to V17 in a few weeks time.

regards

simon

[robcat2075]

Yes it is available. "Negative" is done with the "Tint" post effect.

 

You can key the two colors of the tint effect to change its effect over time, OR... turn its "Active ON/OFF.

[Simon Edmondson]

Yes it is available. "Negative" is done with the "Tint" post effect.

 

You can key the two colors of the tint effect to change its effect over time, OR... turn its "Active ON/OFF.

 

Thank you.

I shall try it this evening.

regards

simon

[Rodney]

Also... (with a slight tangent related to post effects)

 

Don't forget that with Post Effects we don't have to re-render but can use A:M Composite to apply the effect to already rendered images.

This will probably work best with image sequence rendered to .EXR format.

 

I have not run any test to determine what differences there may be between post effects applied to a camera and those used in a composite. It seems to me that the ones applied to the camera could be more effective/versatile if they cross over the threshold into the rendering calcuations (i.e. are they/how are they effected by multipass operations?).

 

Note that this would be very similar to applying a previously rendered image sequence to a camera as a Rotoscope that has the Post Effect applied.

I have it in my mind that this 're-rendering' (for lack of a better term) would take longer via the Camera than via A:M Composite's 'Save As Animation' processing. I have not tested this out however so it is -mostly- speculation.

 

As I am making good progress on my housing situation perhaps this is something I can test/demonstrate/document later this week.

If nothing else to satisfy my own curiosity.

 

Let us know what the results are from your testing Simon!

[Fuchur]

Note that this would be very similar to applying a previously rendered image sequence to a camera as a Rotoscope that has the Post Effect applied.

 

You loose all kind of informations with that, for instance: Depth-Informations (however that can be given out as a buffer), Motion-Information based on objects instead of pixels, normals, etc. Some of those can be put out as a buffer but not all.

 

See you

*Fuchur*

[Simon Edmondson]

I rendered out a walk sequence as a series of jpg's, applying Tint as post effect

 

As it went through this was the result

 

 

I imported the sequence into the PWS and "saved animation as " with this result

 

Tonal_walk.mov

 

I 'm not at all conversant with the compositing function, so clearly missing something here.

A composite window opened up and a composite showed in the images section but don't know what to do next?

 

 

Things have plainly changed since the last time I used Tint as a Post Effect. Is there a guide available as to how to proceed?

regards

simon

[Rodney]

You are talking about (at least) two processes here so it'll be best to focus on one until you lock that down.

I'd set Composite aside for the moment and concentrate on rendering with your camera and the Tint Post Effect.

If you are getting that .MOV sequence from the sequence you captured a frame from then something is off.

The color (blue in your case) can't suddenly come back into an image sequence as is showing in your .MOV where that color was not rendered in the first place.

Perhaps I'm just reading your post wrong.

 

I do note that in your second screen capture it appears that the image sequence was rendered in negative (with a white background and dark character). Perhaps you didn't open that particular sequence but and instead opened another?

 

 

(Going against my own advice to refrain from exploring Composite I'll suggest that there is a Tech Talk on using A:M Composite. I haven't viewed it in a very long time and should so that I can compare my experience with what Hash Inc has suggested when starting out. If not rendering to .EXR format I would not use A:M Composite, as I think it defeats the purpose of A:M Composite which is to mine all of the .EXR format's buffered data. We can use other formats but the experience will not be optimal. (Edit: Robert's video demonstrates that A:M Composite is still very useful with other formats)

 

Perhaps we can start a new dedicated topic where we delve the depths of A:M Composite.

General References:

Compositing Forum

Noel Pickering's A:M Composite Tech Talk

[robcat2075]

Here's a simple composite project started from your TonalWalk footage. I had to try this twice for it to work, I don't know what i did wrong the first time.

 

SimpleCompositeProject.mov

 

 

In my first test, the "Percentage" value seemed not to work. that will have to be investigated further.

 

I just noticed you are in v15. It should work the same, but i did this in v17. Let me know if it doesn't.

 

 

Search Tags: Simple Composite Project Tint

[Rodney]

Awesome video Robert!

I hope everyone will view that because it's sure to encourage more folks to use A:M Composite!

 

 

(You should be able to use percentages there but I do have a dim memory of preferring to tweak splines in the channel view rather than typing in the percentage numbers. So rather than view in dopesheet/keyframe view you might try spline/channel view)

[Simon Edmondson]

If you are getting that .MOV sequence from the sequence you captured a frame from then something is off.

The color (blue in your case) can't suddenly come back into an image sequence as is showing in your .MOV where that color was not rendered in the first place.

Perhaps I'm just reading your post wrong.

 

Rodney

 

My explanation may not have been as clear as required, apologies.

I imported Tint and set the parameters as Rob suggested to get the negative effect.

I put that on the camera in the chor.

When I did a quick render, it got the desired negative look.

When that was rendered as mov file it gave the result of that posted. There was no further work on that file, it was posted as rendered to desktop. Perhaps that was the hitch ?

When I had watched it going through, some came out tonal, most did not. Non of the monochrome frames showed in the end file.

 

Thinking it might be a QT glitch. They were then rendered as a sequence of Jpg's.

Watching the render as it progressed, they all appeared to be rendered as monochrome,

A composite window opened as the render completed, which is where my knowledge stopped.

The jpg sequence was imported into the PWS and, when saved as a mov file, the colour was there

Even though it had appeared Monochrome during the sequence render and the quick render to screen.

 

>> I do note that in your second screen capture it appears that the image sequence was rendered in negative (with a white background and dark character). Perhaps you didn't open that particular sequence but and instead opened another?

 

Only one sequence was rendered. I'll try again later to see if a different result is reached. Proceedure may have been at fault.

 

 

 

 

>>(Going against my own advice to refrain from exploring Composite I'll suggest that there is a Tech Talk on using A:M Composite. ... Perhaps we can start a new dedicated topic where we delve the depths of A:M Composite.

 

I would be very interested in that.

The next planned short was going to try and use the multiplane option of earlier versions but,apparently, that is no longer available so I wondered if Composite might do it ?

 

Thank you for your help.

regards

simon

[robcat2075]

I'm confused about what we are confused about.

 

You're saying the effect shows up exactly as expected except in the render? And then some shows and some not?

 

the tonal walk clip had no effects that I could see.

 

 

Suggestion... make sure there are full quote and unquote tags on the parts you quote from other posts, otherwise it gets very confusing about who is saying what.

[Rodney]

The next planned short was going to try and use the multiplane option of earlier versions but,apparently, that is no longer available so I wondered if Composite might do it ?

 

Not true!

Multiplane is always and ever present in A:M (at a guess I'd say it was incorporated from being a separate module in very early version v3 or before). Folks have suggested that there are aspects of the old Multiplane module that didn't make the transition but I've yet to see anyone describe what those are/were. From what I can tell we can do all the things that could be done in that old module... and a whole lot more.

 

Perhaps you are using a different term so it's important to know what you are targeting.

 

To use classic Disney style Multiplane effects in depth you want to use a standard Choreography with a Camera and then Layers and/or Rotoscopes. Of course you can mix in 3D props and models with those Layers and Rotos too.

 

The most basic demo of Multiplane is this:

 

- Drag and Drop a few images/image sequences into a Chor and select 'Layers' from the Dialogue box that opens. You can also select 'Rotoscope' but note that Rotos are constrained to a 2D plane and therefore cannot be rotated and moved in space. Rotoscopes always face the camera. As such, they are very useful for backgrounds and for overlays/overprints that you want to cover everything else, such as an overlayed interface, buttons, menus etc.)

- Move/Rotate/Scale the Layer as necessary.

 

Note: To obtain optimal compositing/multiplane effects every image will need to have some degree of transparency. That is achieved through the use of Alpha Channels that mask areas of an image so that they can be seen through. Not all image formats support the use of Alpha Channels.

[Simon Edmondson]

I'm confused about what we are confused about.

 

You're saying the effect shows up exactly as expected except in the render? And then some shows and some not?

 

the tonal walk clip had no effects that I could see.

 

 

Suggestion... make sure there are full quote and unquote tags on the parts you quote from other posts, otherwise it gets very confusing about who is saying what.

 

Rob

 

I posted my last message before I saw your excellent explanation, apologies. I am just about to try to implement it and will post the result later.

At times I feel a bit like the viewer at the end of the old TV series " Soap" when they said " confused ? you won't be after the next episode of... " But I'm getting there slowly.

Thanks for your help.

simon

[Simon Edmondson]

I'm beginning to feel that the problems I'm having are not just me, but may be down to some kind of problem with the computer itself.

Trying to follow Rob's tutorial video and the results are very inconsistent right from the start.

First of all the Tone walk .move imports in two ways ( !!! )

 

First with a black background

or

with a white background

 

Neither has the image of the walking figure.

 

If I try to scroll through the black import. the first frame goes Blue, the second Turquoise, the third white, then stays white , but still no figure.

 

More Bizarrely,

If I click on the file image in the PWS the figure appears in the section were the properties panel is, but not in the viewing area !!!

 

I'm going to go and try it on an old PC and see if I can get the desired result rather than more grey hairs.

regards

simon

[robcat2075]

I just tried it in V15 (PC version) and it did work the first time but with a few differences...

 

-after I added the Tint to the composite project the default "Black and White" effect was in effect immediately, I didn't have to re-pick it from the drop-down menu.

-the Percentage property worked properly and made keys in the time line when i changed the value.

[NancyGormezano]

I imported Tint and set the parameters as Rob suggested to get the negative effect.

I put that on the camera in the chor.

When I did a quick render, it got the desired negative look.

When that was rendered as mov file it gave the result of that posted. T

 

I am willing to bet that you didn't have apply camera's post effects = ON when you went to render (camera/output/buffers)

 

And yes, oddly, the quick on screen render would have shown the post effect even without that being ON

[NancyGormezano]

I'm beginning to feel that the problems I'm having are not just me, but may be down to some kind of problem with the computer itself.

Trying to follow Rob's tutorial video and the results are very inconsistent right from the start.

First of all the Tone walk .move imports in two ways ( !!! )

 

First with a black background

or

with a white background

 

Neither has the image of the walking figure.

 

If I try to scroll through the black import. the first frame goes Blue, the second Turquoise, the third white, then stays white , but still no figure.

 

More Bizarrely,

If I click on the file image in the PWS the figure appears in the section were the properties panel is, but not in the viewing area !!!

 

I'm going to go and try it on an old PC and see if I can get the desired result rather than more grey hairs.

 

I don't exactly know what's happening with you (did you fool with alpha buffer ON/OFF...or key color??? - that might account for the different background colors) but, more likely:

 

My experience with Composite has been that it's been very, icky touchy (in all versions, in different ways), and that it is very hard to get consistent results if you start deleting effects, changing their order, changing parameters, doing things in the wrong order. Very frustrating.

 

I have found that if things start acting weird & inconsistently, it's best to start from scratch: ie, new project, import image sequence, new composite, and go from there adding posteffects.

[Simon Edmondson]

I am willing to bet that you didn't have apply camera's post effects = ON when you went to render (camera/output/buffers)

 

And yes, oddly, the quick on screen render would have shown the post effect even without that being ON

 

 

Nancy

 

Without wishing to be irreligious, You saviour !

I've been virtually pulling my hair out trying to find whats wrong. I tried it on the old PC and it imported but still didn't fully co operate. I came back into to see your message and you were spot on.

This was the result

 

Tonal_walk.mov

 

The effect I was trying for was this,

 

 

Wall_walk.mov

 

 

I wanted to make it look as though the figure was walking behind the plaster, inside the wall itself. It will need some tweeking but it seems to work ?

Thank you very much indeed for your help.

simon

 

Ps

It was a mild diversion while I thought about how to do something else ( mild ! )

[NancyGormezano]

The effect I was trying for was this,

 

I wanted to make it look as though the figure was walking behind the plaster, inside the wall itself. It will need some tweeking but it seems to work ?

 

Very interesting effect! It looks like a walking raised relief image on the wall.

 

I am curious tho as to how/why there is a solid black outline on stickguy? And that it changes as he walks across screen/wall? Makes the "walking inside wall" look strange (confuses the illusion). Is that a result of the post effect or are you using toon lines?

[Simon Edmondson]

I am curious tho as to how/why there is a solid black outline on stickguy? And that it changes as he walks across screen/wall? Makes the "walking inside wall" look strange (confuses the illusion). Is that a result of the post effect or are you using toon lines?

 

 

Nancy

Thank you.

The bump maps used were the ones that made up the negative render. It was a straight render, no toon lines. It may be a result of the post effect (?) or possibly a result of the shadow/ highlight as was before the negative effect ? I'll try to refine it a bit more when it comes to the real thing in a couple of weeks.

 

I was thinking of using wall paper rather than plaster but, musn't allow myself to get too diverted...

regards

simon