smartskinning acting weird....

[the_black_mage]

i'm working on a nice little rigg(i'll show it off later). but for some reason when i try to smart skin a bone of a model i don't get the right results. i translate the bone, go into muscle mode and get the splines how i want them. then i test it out and the splines i moved don't go back to the way they were when i translate it back...is there some thing i'm missing?

[zandoriastudios]

Sounds like you are just going into "muscle-mode" which is NOT creating smartskin, just CP keyframes....

 

Pose the bone, then right-click it>new>smartskin

This will appear to switch your mode to muscle--but you will notice the define relationship button is toggled. Adjust the mesh, then untoggle the Relationship button, then switch back to bones mode. Now when you move the arm, you will see that its rotation drives the shape of the mesh.

 

It you have my Smartskin/CP Weighting CD, then re-watch it--pay attention to the relationship button.

[John Bigboote]

CPWeights is a nifty newer feature that can eliminate some or all of the need for smartskinning, making a much more versatile character. SS always acted a little wanky for me.

[the_black_mage]

yeah i do that, i've used smart skinning before. it just suddenly started doing that....

 

but i've never used cp weights....i guess that could work...i'll give it a shot....

[John Bigboote]

Good! I highly advise their usage for ease and effectivness, and I think you will like them a LOT!

[Sum Square Stories]

Just because CPWeights might do the job doesn't mean you should just go for a workaround. It is best to know how both tools work and that both are working correctly. There are many cool things that only Smartskinning can do. I really on smartskin for what I do so if there is a problem I want to be sure.

 

Which version of AM are you using? I did a quick simple test with both 14b and 14c and didn't notice a problem but it was a very quick simple test. Are the CPs positions changed but just not the way you like or are they not being affected/assigned by the smartskinning? If not at all then maybe key muscle isn't pressed. If not correctly then are multiple smartskin keys assigned? If they're not at regular intervals then that can cause weirdness.

[rusty]

i'm working on a nice little rigg(i'll show it off later). but for some reason when i try to smart skin a bone of a model i don't get the right results. i translate the bone, go into muscle mode and get the splines how i want them. then i test it out and the splines i moved don't go back to the way they were when i translate it back...is there some thing i'm missing?

 

Isiac,

 

I would definitely like to know what version of AM you are using and, what is up with your SS attempts. I rely on SS as the final polish.

 

People LOOOVVVEEE weighted CPs but... both it and SS have their pros and cons (watch some prima donna put a flame on me for that perceived slight on WCPs, LOL). WCPs have a steeper learning curve then SS and they can be a lot more work then SS in complex models. Also, using only WCPs, joints will lose their volume (which is corrected by SS or, by jumping through hoops with WCPs). Furthermore WCPs provide a single force to deal with all situations (get it perfect with the joint bent this way and pray it works for the joint bending the other way because unlike SS there is only one setting you can apply).

 

SS is relatively easy and, if the mesh doesn't look right when rotated the other way, you can simply fix it (you can apply multiple forces to deal with multiple situations). But use too much of it and it can spiral out of control on you. Don't watch what you're doing and its easy to place key frames close together causing the mesh to jump and, its fixable but you have to know how (WCPs are easier to fix).

 

For myself, WCPs and SS combined form a excellent balance. I get it as close as I can, first with just the geometry bones, then with fan bone, then with WCPs and finally with a little SS.

 

Remember, what version are you using and, what's the deal with how its not working for you (if there's a problem we need to know)?

 

Cheers,

Rusty

[genocell]

Smart Skin will not work without CP Weights. You MUST use CP Weights in conjunction with SS. Every cp that uses SS muscle keyframes MUST be weighted somewhat to avoid the cps from jumping around randomly. This is what I have experienced with this new kind of multi axial SS.

 

The only advantage that I see in using CPW with SS with realistic muscle joint simulation is the ability for multiple bones to influence a group of cps simultaneously for example the skin/muscle area between fingers. I wouldn't use CPW at all if it wasn't for the factors mentioned above. Like the manual said, if you have a realistic character it is better to just use Smart skin alone. But in reality using smart skin alone will cause the cps to jump like crazy without CPW.

 

CPW when used with realistic characters is much more of a "lets set this variable to this and see if it will deform properly" and SS

is much more hands on and direct approach. But one cannot exist without the other. I prefer to use the latter the most as no amount of CPW editing can make a realistic joint look 'right', you have to sculpt it directly to get it look the way you want.

[zandoriastudios]

Genocell, while It is TRUE that it is easier to smartskin after weighting the joints. There is no rule that says you MUST! Remember that smartskin is MUCH MORE POWERFUL than just shaping the mesh based on the bone rotation. You can control ANYTHING with the smartskin: Bumpmaps, surface attributes, Other bones, etc...

 

If you are having problems with your smartskin keys being jumpy, look at increasing the relationship's falloff radius, as described in the TECHNICAL REFERENCE (p.73-p.75)

[rusty]

You can control ANYTHING with the smartskin: Bumpmaps, surface attributes, Other bones, etc...

 

Yep, I do this all the time. However, unless this has been fixed by hash, Mirror all Smart Skins only works with CPs.

 

Rusty

[rusty]

Smart Skin will not work without CP Weights. You MUST use CP Weights in conjunction with SS. Every cp that uses SS muscle keyframes MUST be weighted somewhat to avoid the cps from jumping around randomly. This is what I have experienced with this new kind of multi axial SS.

 

I'm sorry, and I don't mean to slam you however... I don't know where you got these ideas but they are simply utterly untrue. We had SS (both 3-axis and later multi axial) years before WCPs and even today many people still use only SS (I did for at lest a year after WCP came along plus the majority of my character models {realistic} still use only SS). SS, when used correctly, works fine all by itself. WCPs are used alone without any SS by many people (or so they say... they say WCPs completely replaces SS). There is no requirement at all that one does not work without the other. SS jumping around is a symptom of placing SS key frames too close together (you adjust one way then come back later and at almost the same rotation you adjust it another way).

 

Again, I don't mean to slam you but what you say is simply untrue. Martin resisted implementing WCPs for years because they crimped joints (as I recall his post saying anyway) and all we had was SS for many years and all of us used it without WCPs.

 

Rusty

[genocell]

Smart Skin will not work without CP Weights. You MUST use CP Weights in conjunction with SS. Every cp that uses SS muscle keyframes MUST be weighted somewhat to avoid the cps from jumping around randomly. This is what I have experienced with this new kind of multi axial SS.

 

I'm sorry, and I don't mean to slam you however... I don't know where you got these ideas but they are simply utterly untrue. We had SS (both 3-axis and later multi axial) years before WCPs and even today many people still use only SS (I did for at lest a year after WCP came along plus the majority of my character models {realistic} still use only SS). SS, when used correctly, works fine all by itself. WCPs are used alone without any SS by many people (or so they say... they say WCPs completely replaces SS). There is no requirement at all that one does not work without the other. SS jumping around is a symptom of placing SS key frames too close together (you adjust one way then come back later and at almost the same rotation you adjust it another way).

 

Again, I don't mean to slam you but what you say is simply untrue. Martin resisted implementing WCPs for years because they crimped joints (as I recall his post saying anyway) and all we had was SS for many years and all of us used it without WCPs.

 

Rusty

 

Thank you for replying. I enjoy a healthy discussion.

 

I have experienced this since v11 and as you can see I have a thread about this more than a year ago and I remember you also responded and tried to help me out in that thread. I have also sent part of the model to mtpeak2 and he arrived at the same conclusion as I did (from what I remember) and it was solved by cp weighting the offending cps. Also the problem does not occur on all bones, only some at random, regardless of the number of axis involved.

 

As a note I have used it the way it is supposed ]to be used (place keyframes in halves) but the problem still persist as a matter of fact I used SS in v8 for a few years with no problems whatsoever so I am sure it is not a mistake in my part. And by saying that I am not saying Am V8 is better than AM V14. I am not in any way complaining or making stuff up but no matter what I do (I tried dozens of stuff for a year and that's including setting the radius factor just to set the record straight) the same problem occurs.

 

Please note what I experience only happens if I use SS exclusively, but the problem goes away if I use CPW in conjunction with SSand it doesn't affect all cps involved in joint deformation, only some cps and at random. If I use CPW in conjunction with SS this problem goes away, to a certain extent. Also this happen in certain bones only.

 

I am not in any way making a sweeping statement as I have used A:M for a long time. I am just saying that I have an still am experiencing this 'phenomena'. I really hope that I am wrong since I have reskinned completely 3 realistic human models because of this and I have looked into every possible cause of this 'problem' for a year. I am past that problem now and I do not view it as a serious problem since it CAN be solved, and I am happy with A:M at the moment, but what I can see is you cannot use SS exclusively without ANY CPW most of the time, and I am assuming this is what John BigBoote mentioned

"SS always acted a little wanky for me."

 

The only possibility that I see it as my mistake is the model was not created entirely in post v9 multi axial SS feature but I can only speculate. Remember I have deleted all the relationship containers and rebone and rerigged and resmartskinned the whole model again from scratch. Actually

 

I hope you see my post as an attempt in discussing things in a positive way and I really appreciate your response and I am in no way trying to put A:M in a negative light. I do not have anything to gain if I was making things up. I am posting from what I am experiencing, and I am not sure if anyone has experienced this problem or not.

 

Thank you.

[zandoriastudios]

sigh....I pointed you to the answer.

[rusty]

I hope you see my post as an attempt in discussing things in a positive way and I really appreciate your response and I am in no way trying to put A:M in a negative light. I do not have anything to gain if I was making things up. I am posting from what I am experiencing, and I am not sure if anyone has experienced this problem or not.

 

Yes I do (see this as a discussion), thanks! (I was watching for a reply kind of dreading it, LOL. I don't like to tell someone that they are 'utterly wrong'... its like saying 'always' if you know what I mean. Almost never a wise thing to do but in this case... well...)

 

I don't know what to say. I've used SS a whole lot (without WCPs) and have almost never had a problem... actually never had a problem that I couldn't fix. One exception, if you have a joint like the shoulder joint and you find you have to put too much SS on it, you lose control and its time to go back to the fan bones (or WCPs now days).

 

In general I have to say that your statement is still wrong. But, for you... I guess not. Again, don't know what to say.

 

Cheers (and thanks for not over reacting, and I'm sorry for having to say... your wrong),

Rusty

 

PS: I was very into Anzovin's faking multi-axis SS btw. This really put SS through the paces.

 

PPS: Please tell me the process you use for applying SS (in short general steps -- there are two very different ways to apply SS -- maybe more) and also what version where you last experienced the jumping CP problem. I kind of remember seeing a jumping CP problem now that I think about it. I also remember finding out that most others applied SS differently then I use to (and still usually do). Probably nothing but... ?

 

PP-PS: There is always an answer (somewhere). I've come to believe that. And Lord knows how often I've wondered around the house scratching my hand and saying that to myself (by no means exclusively for AM!).

[the_black_mage]

wow i leave and all these post come up(i still gotta read them all). i'm using v12... i'll post a test of the rigg in the wip section later....

[genocell]

sigh....I pointed you to the answer.

 

Hi. It didn't work. I tried that before. Thank you.

[genocell]

I don't know what to say. I've used SS a whole lot (without WCPs) and have almost never had a problem... actually never had a problem that I couldn't fix. One exception, if you have a joint like the shoulder joint and you find you have to put too much SS on it, you lose control and its time to go back to the fan bones (or WCPs now days).

 

In general I have to say that your statement is still wrong. But, for you... I guess not. Again, don't know what to say.

 

Cheers (and thanks for not over reacting, and I'm sorry for having to say... your wrong),

Rusty

 

PS: I was very into Anzovin's faking multi-axis SS btw. This really put SS through the paces.

 

PPS: Please tell me the process you use for applying SS (in short general steps -- there are two very different ways to apply SS -- maybe more) and also what version where you last experienced the jumping CP problem. I kind of remember seeing a jumping CP problem now that I think about it. I also remember finding out that most others applied SS differently then I use to (and still usually do). Probably nothing but... ?

 

Hi. Sorry for the late reply. My line was disconnected.

 

I am using version 14, version 13 the same thing happened. I apply smartskin as I had been since v8. Rotate bone to the maximum degree. Make sure muscle keyframe is on (it's always on for me), move around cps. Go to half of that angle, deform cps and so on.

 

Now the cps only jumps when I put keyframes in other angles other than that I have put previously. For example, for an elbow I put it through 45, 90, 130 and it's fine. I'm talking about a realistic joint movement here referenced from photographs and I'm using quite a realistic model so there bounds to be a few angles that still wont look right with those keyframes i.e. those 3 keyframes are still not enough to represent any subtilities or little imperfections so some keyframes needs to be put between those for instance at 110 degrees, but when I do that suddenly all cps involved in that angles jumps at random in positions and relative bone angles when I test it.

 

Please note this did not happen in SS in v8 for many years. With this statement I am not saying v8 is better. I am just saying I had tried this approach with v8 - any angular increments in 10, 20, 40, even at 5 degrees increment as long as it is within the bounds of the purposed normal muscle movement nothing wacky happened. What I'm saying is this is not supposed to happen in the first place post v9 multiple axis SS.

 

I did a few test before and I did yesterday to solve this with CPW it did solve it but to a certain extent i.e. a hit and miss affair.

 

PP-PS: There is always an answer (somewhere). I've come to believe that. And Lord knows how often I've wondered around the house scratching my hand and saying that to myself (by no means exclusively for AM!).

 

I have come to the solution of not using CPW most of the major joints, except for the fingers. I would love to say 'CPW all the way' but it would defeat the purpose of using any smart skin at all, and the type of model that's I'm using, it's double the work if I use CPW. Now I only use minimal angular SS keyframes 3 to 4 equally spaced and deal any offending cps in choreography muscle mode. And I would ask myself, wouldn't it be wonderful if I could just put SS muscle keyframes anywhere I please? In case anyone's wondering, fanbones still makes the cps pop out of whack.

 

Cheers (and thanks for not over reacting, and I'm sorry for having to say... your wrong),

 

Rusty

 

Well. The only thing I could say to that is "I rally hope so", because this problem has set me back one and a half years just trying to deal with this one problem. I really really hope I am wrong. and I hope this is just a bad dream. But in reality it's happening. And the most weird thing is, I am the only one experiencing it (although mtpeak has confirmed me he also experienced it).

 

Also thank you for trying to help, again.

[Rodney]

Well. The only thing I could say to that is "I rally hope so", because this problem has set me back one and a half years just trying to deal with this one problem. I really really hope I am wrong. and I hope this is just a bad dream. But in reality it's happening. And the most weird thing is, I am the only one experiencing it (although mtpeak has confirmed me he also experienced it).

 

Also thank you for trying to help, again.

 

Reza,

I don't think you've exhausted all your possibilities here.

If you can share a project file and demonstrate the process you are using I think you'll get either the solution or the satisifaction of knowing you've reached the edge of the features capabilities.

 

I understand you may not be able to share the exact files that you are having problems but even there others means exist to isolate the problems.

 

I recommend using a program like Wink (http://www.debugmode.com/wink/) to capture the process you are using. Share your experience with the forum. It will be well worth the effort.

 

At the very least you won't be the only one experiencing the problem.

You may even find a solution to this particular problem.

 

Best,

Rodney

[rusty]

I apply smartskin as I had been since v8. Rotate bone to the maximum degree. Make sure muscle keyframe is on (it's always on for me), move around cps. Go to half of that angle, deform cps and so on.

 

Backup... you open AM and have a model in the modeling window in muscle mode (there is nothing else). Now tell me what you do.

 

Rusty

[genocell]

I apply smartskin as I had been since v8. Rotate bone to the maximum degree. Make sure muscle keyframe is on (it's always on for me), move around cps. Go to half of that angle, deform cps and so on.

 

Backup... you open AM and have a model in the modeling window in muscle mode (there is nothing else). Now tell me what you do.

 

Rusty

 

What I meant is I access the smartskin feature either by right clicking in the modelling window in bones mode or in an action and select new smartskin (if there wasn't any) or the name of the smartskin container.

In action window I right click it While in action window I always make sure that the relationship icon (chain link icon) is turned on while I am smart skinning and turned of while I am not, for example when testing the rotation. I always make sure key muscle is turned on too.

 

By the way I don't think there is any other way in accessing the smartskin accidentally or something like that which is why I didn't mentioned it. There's also the choreography way of accessing it but I don't use that often.

 

One thing I need to mention is this 'problem' or whatever it is occurs most of the time. Sometimes it occurs in varying degrees depends on how many times I smartskin it and delete the smartskin after that. Like I sometimes need to smartskin the same bone over 3 times until it subsides. Sometimes it goes away sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes it took me weeks to smartskin a single bone until it goes away. Sometimes it only works (to a certain extent) by copy pasting the SS keyframes incrementally from another copy of the model into a completely empty SS container in another model.

[genocell]

I don't think you've exhausted all your possibilities here.

If you can share a project file and demonstrate the process you are using I think you'll get either the solution or the satisifaction of knowing you've reached the edge of the features capabilities.

 

I understand you may not be able to share the exact files that you are having problems but even there others means exist to isolate the problems.

 

I recommend using a program like Wink (http://www.debugmode.com/wink/) to capture the process you are using. Share your experience with the forum. It will be well worth the effort.

 

At the very least you won't be the only one experiencing the problem.

You may even find a solution to this particular problem.

 

Best,

Rodney

 

I'll try that if my problem gets any worse. At the moment it's a hit and miss affair. What I notice the more cps involved in a joint SS deformation, the higher the tendency for this problem to occur.

 

Thank you for the links and trying to help me out.

 

Also I apologize to anyone else (especially the original poster) for the way I hijacked this thread.

[genocell]

I also need to add if the SS is used in conjunction with CPW it does not solve this problem entirely, only to a certain extent.

The cps will also moves out of whack (much like pulsates if I rotate the joint) if the keyframes are not spaced equally. So if I have a CPW joint with SS at 80, and 40 degrees and I wanted to change a some offending cps at 60 degrees the resulting joint movement will pulsate meaning the cps involved, starting from 0 degrees will move out of whack, will be okay at 40, then move out of whack, then okay at 60, then out of whack, then okay at 80. So CPW does not entirely solve my problem.

 

Also I forgot to mention one important thing even IF it works the SS at each keyframe spans 3 keyframes, for example at 40 degrees the keyframe spans at 39, 40 and 41 degrees which results in a 'pop'. Sometimes it's obvious, sometimes it's not. But it's there. The keyframe at 39 and 41 can't be deleted. I am normally a patient man. But this problem is taking me to the edge of insanity. If anyone check my post in 2006 all the things I mentioned in here I also mentioned it there. I have to clarify it because I forgot about it because I stopped using A:M for a while. No choreography tweak can fix this so SS is sometimes out of the question. I might as well animate all the muscle movement in action or cho.

[rusty]

I apply smartskin as I had been since v8. Rotate bone to the maximum degree. Make sure muscle keyframe is on (it's always on for me), move around cps. Go to half of that angle, deform cps and so on.

 

Backup... you open AM and have a model in the modeling window in muscle mode (there is nothing else). Now tell me what you do.

 

Rusty

 

What I meant is I access the smartskin feature either by right clicking in the modelling window in bones mode or in an action and select new smartskin (if there wasn't any) or the name of the smartskin container.

In action window I right click it While in action window I always make sure that the relationship icon (chain link icon) is turned on while I am smart skinning and turned of while I am not, for example when testing the rotation. I always make sure key muscle is turned on too.

 

By the way I don't think there is any other way in accessing the smartskin accidentally or something like that which is why I didn't mentioned it. There's also the choreography way of accessing it but I don't use that often.

 

One thing I need to mention is this 'problem' or whatever it is occurs most of the time. Sometimes it occurs in varying degrees depends on how many times I smartskin it and delete the smartskin after that. Like I sometimes need to smartskin the same bone over 3 times until it subsides. Sometimes it goes away sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes it took me weeks to smartskin a single bone until it goes away. Sometimes it only works (to a certain extent) by copy pasting the SS keyframes incrementally from another copy of the model into a completely empty SS container in another model.

 

I am too sleepy to answer this properly but this is what I suspected. I did not discover doing SS from an action until just recently (much better this way).

 

So... I never saw jumping CPs and I never created SS from an action -- I always right clicked on the bone in the modeling window and selected New SS from here.

 

Does this matter? Do jumping CPs come from creating SS from an action i older versions? I don't know. Just a thought.

 

Cheers,

r

[zandoriastudios]

So you've tried increasing the Relationships fall-off radius, as described in the technical reference? Could you post what your settings are, what they were, and a comparison of the "popping" for both settings?

[mtpeak2]

Just for the record, I didn't say you have to use cp weighting when smartskinning. I recommend weighting first, then if you need to, smartskin.

 

I vaguely remember genocell's problem, cp's were jumping all over the place, why, I don't know. I do not use smartskin (for cp's anyway).