Spline patch to polygon

[filipmun]

Bridging spline patch to polygon model and streamline production process for better efficiency, harnessing the best of both worlds with one effort.

Greetings all Hashers, the year 2006 will have another milestone for Animation Master in making high quality 3d not just within AM but all the way to its polygon counter part. From this year onwards, I will produce models for all levels with AM at the cost of a burger and adopt Buy once, Resell forever marketing to kick start the compilation of affordable 3d-assets, beginning with 3d-ebook which contain interactive 3d preview in Java and high-res 3d in pdf (instant 3d imaging for 2d artists) at: www.3d-ebook.com

The 3d contents in OBJ & PRJ (Hash format) can be found at: www.3d-assets.info before end of January, download the free sample to learn if you can handle this kind of model where the geometries are not connected and extra spline is an alternative to bias handle. The reason for this is to convert the same model and reuse the same texture map in polygon applications, my AM version is 11.1 and not tested in other versions but the UV mapping algorithm should be same, only planar mapping is used.

In the conventional approach, you have to decide whether the final model is meant for game or ray-trace rendering and often not compatible with the hooks and 5 point patches, using AM to create one model for all usage seems unthinkable not to mention texturing in a 3d paint program such as Zbrush. While it is easy to do it in polygon program, AM model will have to compensate to enable OBJ export and make use of texture maps meant for polygon UV rather than spline mesh.

 

Well, I have a solution which may not be perfect and have successfully published them into OBJ and VRML for my 3d PDF, I am counting on all the support I can get and allow sharing or resell without any restrictions as part of my contribution towards the birth of a comprehensive and affordable 3d asset inventory. Here is my slogan: The future of 3d is drag & drop, either you have it or you don't. No one own natural objects, so don't argue about originality, you can improve it as wish.

I am also looking for rigging artist, you get the model for free and will sent you the final texture in exchange with action poses like; walk, run and jump, if interested please email your web link to: Ganish@3d-assets.info

 

Here is the direct link to my project: http://www.3d-assets.info/images/hash%20prj/index.htm

 

[filipmun]

Hi, just to let everyknow that the evaluation project "Lion" is ready for download, its 4mb with 2048x2048 texture maps.

 

This modeling technique is like no other, they are in parts just to be able to reuse the same decal meant for polygon.

 

Have fun!

[filipmun]

The direct link to my Hash Project page:Here is the direct link to my project: http://www.3d-assets.info/images/hash%20prj/index.htm

[robcat2075]

I'm not sure I understand your commentary or the reasons for the spline to polygon conversion, but it's a fine lookin' cat!

[filipmun]

There was a poll on what do you use AM for and one of the answers was to learn the basic before moving to higher end 3d application (Polygon based).

 

I have 3 types of format: prj, OBJ & vrml.

Hash prj is good for animation and raytrace rendering, OBJ is to paint in Zbrush and to vrml for my 3d pdf.

So, I have everything I need with just one model, game content with highly optimized UV arrangement, OBJ for other 3d applications.

 

Hash is now my master program and carry more contents then other file formats. AM UV mapping is never compatible with polygonal and to use the same model plus all the texture maps has not been done before as far as I know. Though there are great renderings done in AM itself but this is to make it cross applications.

 

With the free sample, you'll find the answers there, you need to export the action to mdl and rig and animate in a fresh project, my "Object" is actually the UV where the model took shape in Action.

 

The OBJ version will be out shortly.

[KenH]

I'm also unsure how you've managed to solve a problem that even Hash hasn't figured out yet.

[heyvern]

This requires not modeling in the model window. Flat mesh shapes in the model... the model is "shaped" in an action.

 

I think this is the idea. Doing this makes decaling and export to polygon applications "easier" I suppose.

 

This requires never using 5 point patches.. is this correct?

 

-----------------------

 

What I can't figure out is why not spend all that effort "flattening" in the action?

 

Why not model based on "shaping a grid" in the model window... then... flatten back to a grid in an action?

 

I have done this on many occasions. Flatten in an action, rearrange and align all the CPs. This technique seems... backwards to me.

 

You use the action for decaling... export the model for other applications.

 

Vernon "!" Zehr

[filipmun]

The reason to model it flat is to easily edit and re-stamp without going into UV editing, you can still ues Hooks & 5pt patch because those area can be cleaned up in polygon modeler, it is very difficult to align spline UV mesh to match polygon texture map especially with minimum functionality, I happen to be a UV designer who influence the way geometries are build.

Another reason why the model is not connected is due to the Spline/ Polygon structure, you will require additional texture to cover the stretching seams usually at the center parting of planar map or you will need to align all the affected bias handles prior for decalling.

 

Yes, it is backward, UV design > Modeling > texturing, with conventional technique, you get only 1 type of UV map which is fine but it will have to be either for Game or Raytrace. I can simply move them arround and meet 2x2 texture limitation for Game content, particularly repeatitive (tillable) mapping.

 

Example: Dual purpose UV mapping

http://www.3d-assets.info/images/3d%20game/index.htm

 

High resolution model:

http://www.3d-assets.info/images/3d%20rendering/index.htm

 

This technique has been arround in the game community but most hasher only favor spline, or artists prefer to model first and let others worried about the UV mapping. Only those who create models from scratch to finishing would bother to develope their work arround.

 

However it is only meant for multi usage models or multi tasks 3d artists.

 

[Rodney]

Here is the poll Filip referred to: Poll

 

Filip,

I admire your tenacity. It looks like you've come up with an interesting solution that bridges the spline/ polygon gap. Definitely an interesting approach.

 

I'm not sure I would have taken on the task (had I the skill of course!) based on the numbers in that poll however.

 

There was a poll on what do you use AM for and one of the answers was to learn the basic before moving to higher end 3d application (Polygon based).

 

I see the response for that answer was only 6 percent (12 people). Thats roughly equivalent to those that hate polygons (8) so I'm not too sure how reliable the poll could be except perhaps to show that the majority of A:M Users (150) taking the poll thought Animation:Master was 'All the tools needed to make my own 3D movies'.

 

I think all options are interesting though but perhaps what you are marketing isn't fully clear.

Can you elaborate on the 3D PDF that you mention? Is there an example that can be shared to show everyone how you are implementing A:M models in this way?

 

Regardless I think it amazing that you have the skill and patience to get something like this going.

 

Tell us/show us more.

 

(sure wish I could program!)

Rodney

[heyvern]

The reason to model it flat is to easily edit and re-stamp without going into UV editing...

 

 

Once again... why can't you do the flattening and decaling in an action or pose?

 

Let's imagine for a moment that lion example was "flattened" exactly the same way in an action. You could have modeled it the same way in the model window and flatten it in the action.

 

Restamping would require just opening the action and stamping. The UV's would be the same in the action window... flattened... as in the model window.

 

Actually... I do this to some extent currently. Flatten a model completely in an action. A head for example... flatten the face... flatten the ears... move the ears over to the sides so the decal can hit the whole surface... etc...

 

I was working on a project with a mesh that was entirely formed from the grid wizard. Later in an action I flattened it back to a grid and stamped it.

 

I don't see anything different except the order.

 

If polygon apps require this "flat" model for export, you can export a "new" model from the action.

 

Does AM stamp decals differently when done in the model than in an action? Are the exported maps when saved in polygon format different when done this way?

 

I am probably missing something... it just seems... opposite of how AM works for no reason I can see.

 

Vernon "!" Zehr

[filipmun]

heynern,

look at the shape of the lion UV mesh and you'll notice that it does not resemble the animal shape in fact, it is square looking for all body parts. (Unwrap paper box packaging)

Why square? not Irregular? That is what makes it dual purpose; Game & raytrace, AM spline UV mesh is curved while polygon UV is straight edges only. It would be very difficult to rearrange them into square or not possible at all, this is one of the key factors to streamline texture maps for cross format and I would agree with you to decal in Action if UV editing tool is as good as modeling, also you will not notice if you are painting the texture in a 2d program.

 

A great part of the process is to accomodate model & UV map optimization, not to mention any part could go wrong and require fixing, certaintly, there are rooms for improvement. I have uploaded the OBJ version in low and medium resolutions: http://www.3d-assets.info/images/3d%20rendering/index.htm

 

Rodney,

I realized that only a few of us is keen to explore everything 3d has to offer, in the future, there will be more realtime 3d contents which does not require a 3d application or plugin installed. 3D PDF is based on JAVA and you can view in a browser, example is at: http://www.3d-assets.info/3d-ebook/index.htm there is a small java 3d display and click the 3d pdf to launch Acrobat reader, you can rotate pan & zoom.

 

Let me post a new question, how many AM users hope to become a 3d professional some day? Do you think e-products can sustain with just still images or pre-rendered videos? Some form of interactivity is a must, currently Flash has meet the demand, what is next?

Our dictionary used to be just text then sketches, color illstrations, photo and 3d will be next, imagine 3d enriched encyclopedia.

 

Everything has a begining, who ever started it is not relevant, it will take a few life times to document the real world into virtual reality, why not us. I am literally giving away my models (knowledge & Experience) by allowing free resell, just continue to buy me a burger and you'll have my entire collection from now on

But I am retired and will only produce a few base models a month, you are welcome to improve and re-develop from mine. The future belongs to the younger generation.

[heyvern]

I still don't see the advantage.

 

In the past I have flattened models into "grids" in an action by selecting splines and scaling to 0 in multiple directions... then just aligning them to the grid.

 

It is fairly simple, and I never used the UV editor. In fact I was doing this before there was a UV editor.

 

I don't see how having the model flat with the action containing the model information is "better" than the other way around?

 

First off... what if you need to add splinage? How hard is it going to be adding new splines to a model that has no "shape"?

 

If it was the other way around you could easily stitch in new splines and "reflatten" those new splines in the action and restamp.

 

I only recently started using the UV editor. In the past I would always use an action or a pose as my "UV editor". Flatten everything and rearrange things so I could easily stamp a single decal... modify the splines and CP placement in the action to avoid stretching etc.

 

Funny thing... I am kind of obsessive about little things and would often align the mesh to a uniform grid in the action even if I didn't need to.

 

I just don't see why your process needs to be "backwards". I can see why a gridded UV mesh would be helpful in polygon packages... but don't see the need to model in the action as opposed to modeling in the model and flattening in the action.

 

Vernon "!" Zehr

[zandoriastudios]

your 3D .pdf page took 5 minutes to load (on broadband) only to tell me I need to download and install another version of Acrobat. Some future.....

[Rodney]

Being a visionary is never easy. Not that I would know of course.

I do wish you all the best in your endeavor.

I hope you can also apply what you've learned to products created using HA:MR too.

 

I'm downloading your PDF file now... I definitely think those who want to check it out should Right Click and Save Target as to save the PDF to disk. Opening it only to find you need a newer viewer as Will said is going to be frustrating.

 

I recommend you place a notice prominently on your page that Adobe Acrobat Reader 7.0 will be required to view your files.

 

Rodney

[Rodney]

Since I'm making suggestions I'll throw another one at you.

 

Perhaps your webpage could benefit from a little more standardization in color.

As it is (with the variety of color and font styles) its rather hard to read.

 

I'll think you should keep it simple if you want people to read it. Maybe 2 different font styles/sizes max with color only where you want attention to be focused.

 

Because of the confusing colors/fonts I still haven't read it. My brain just refuses.

 

Just a thought.

Rodney

[filipmun]

Thank you all,

 

Rodney you are right, I have made the text single color, thought it will spice up the page at first, Mary (my graphic design assistant) who have been doing too much children's product is not liking it.

 

As for the 3d pdf, well I have made it a download rather than open directly, it only took me 30sec to open but the server is in Asia and that its a high res material at present time, the actual publication will have a low res Java 3d display and that Hi-Res is only meant for 2D artist.

 

Heyvern, I get what you mean and yes I agree with you, the reason I build the model flat is because that is what happen in a polygon modeler, they don't have Action that can be used to decal/pose, so when I import the geometry, it is in the Object window.

 

The best thing to do from now is to build everything in AM and export to others, Hash is superior.

Aren't we proud to be a Hasher!?

 

 

 

 

 

[heyvern]

Heyvern, I get what you mean and yes I agree with you, the reason I build the model flat is because that is what happen in a polygon modeler, they don't have Action that can be used to decal/pose, so when I import the geometry, it is in the Object window.

 

Still confused about why the model must be flat.

 

I may be wrong but it seems to me that if you flatten in an action and decal the same way you have done with the lion sample... it would give the exact same result. The UV "map" in AM is based on how the decal is stamped. It makes no difference if the model is flat to begin with... or if it is flat in an action.

 

How do you rig a model like that?

 

People are using Z-brush to paint decals for AM models by exporting the model to a format that is supported... there are some rough edges to the technique but the maps work... and it doesn't require the absolutely bizarre technique of modeling in an action window.

 

I am still totally clueless on this.

 

----------------------------------------

 

I opened that lion project but the action is all messed up... just a total bizarre mess of CPs everywhere... you may want to check it out.

 

It seems that most of the modified splines in the action spline folder don't match up to anything in the model. It could be you changed the model drastically which broke the action.

 

Vernon "!" Zehr

[filipmun]

Very good question heyvern,

I have been waiting to answer this flat model issue, this is a polygon modeler advantage used particularly on tillable map geometries such as terrain. Everything start with a pre-UV mapped simple plane or cube, clone to multi copies weld into shapes.

 

 

As for characters, the base model is a pre-mapped half a cube, adding more geometries will automatically update the UV mesh, this means you only map once or progressively on protruding parts, when modeling is done, UV mesh is ready to texture.

 

 

Models that are meant for different usage has specific requirements, my work flow may be troblesom but I am meeting these rules so that they serve better as a reusable assets, non software dependent.

By the way, I have the proper model uploaded, it is in the Object window so you can rig in Action as usual.

 

Thank you so much for taking the time to review my work.

[Rodney]

Filip,

Finally got Adobe Reader 7.0 downloaded and installed and took a look at your Trex PDF.

 

I've gotta say that I'm impressed.

You've got a long road ahead of you but yours is the first A:M model I've ever seen that I could rotate in a PDF file. While I think HA:MR technology will be even more versatile (and animatable) it has yet to be exploited in the same way that you've demonstrated. My hat is off to you for that.

 

Congrats on getting your project this far.

Rodney

[filipmun]

Thanks Rodney,

At this point I am using the personal edition of Kaon Vspace Master to publish in pdf where all other functions such as animation is omited, only the Java 3d web display is animated but limited to object orientations not for characters.

 

So the most I can thing of using it is to allow instant 3d for 2d artist and my 3d-ebook is not for the sake of 3d in fact it will contain more interactive prerendered gif where 3d display is the last part. Example; mouse over a series of animated thumbnails to simulate actions is more fun.

 

I will update here when the first example page is done.

[Flog]

Hey so are you saying we can take a Poly model and transform it into a spline model? And vice versa?

I would love to setup my scenes, animate, render, etc in A:M. Is this possible using your tool or method?

 

I check back hoping one day this is possible so I can use A:M.

[filipmun]

There is not straight forward technique, the idea is to be able to do both at one go but model structure in spline must accomodate for this purpose.

 

There are simpler method like for instance; instead of building a complete joint model, the extruded part is an individual piece and blend into the body using alpha transparency. the most tricky part is the decal, you can chose to tweek the center parting bias handle to verticle so that texture does not stretch thus eliminate the need for an extra center texture map.

The other is to make both the left and right parts unconnected and put them close to each other, but need pay attention to these area during animation.

 

To turn this into polygon model, you need an application which allow vertice to weld without compromise the UV map. Generally, if you are fluent in both spline and poly modeling, there should be no problem but is it really necessary to create two types of model? I did this is because I want to paint in Zbrush and animate in AM and deploy into VRML for realtime 3d PDF or web browser.

 

Now that web HAMR is on the way, it will solve this problem. I am trying to create a texturing module with AM so that I don't have to rely on Zbrush ( Composing decals with segments of texture is far easier and reusable rather than actually painting them bit by bit, we have evrything we need in AM to create high qualiy imaging and animation.