Designing Games

[zandoriastudios]

I have been working on the design for my game, which was originally going to be an RPG. While doing some reading about RPGs and the different approaches of games like Diablo and Balder's Gate, I read that a huge percentage of players never finish some games.

Diablo is a much more simple game than Balder's gate, and simpler than it's sequel. And people play it all the way through, sometime several times. In some ways it reminds me of the early arcade games, addictive but not so complicated, fun.

There are a number of things about the modern RPG that I don't much care for...I start playing them, get bored, and never go back to them.... I don't like all the frigging shopping! Haul back treasure, sell it, buy more stuff---It seems like a trip to TJ Maxx with my wife more than a fun game of killing monsters! I don't like that you have to haul a magic item back to town and have it identified before you get to use it--helll, you killed the monster, why have to be hassled to use the prize?

I don't see the point of having a little character sheet with all of the traditional stats from the old AD&D character sheet. Strength,Intelligence,Dexterity,Constitution, Wisdom, Charisma--Hell, if you have to have stats, make them meaningful--something like how much damage you do, how fast your character (avatar) is... the actual values that the game is using to represent your character.

 

So the more I was thinking about it, the more I decided that what was better than the old arcade games was just the graphics! The simple interface of the arcade or console game seems better to me--more fun. So I'm thinking that I need to have these relevant stats for the character displayed as graphical counters in the main window--not as separate interfaces that you have to access. Just counters for your health, current level (score?), etc.

I may either just get rid of Inventory altogether or just have relevant "Ammo" counters for arrows, spells,etc. I don't wanna keep going back to town to "talk" to NPCs....

So now I don't know what to call my game...It isn't an "RPG" anymore...although it still looks like one.

[Zaryin]

Seems like it might be more like "Gauntlet" now. I love that kind of game, but let me say I still like the RPG game -- even with the hassles .

[starwarsguy]

I have to agree with you, I've taken similar approaches to this is my RPGs, but sometimes I enjoy being in a world with all those NPCs and items and jobs. I mean, why do you think people played Animal Crossing?

[Sacman]

Nobody actually played animal crossing

 

Anyway, what you are talking about is a hack and slash. Diablo and Dungeon Seige were hack and slash games. There is no real point other than killing stuff.

 

Where I get stuck with RPG's is the desire to make them all First Person shooter type games. Take Morrowind for example. Unbelieveably complex game. I have it at home and have tried to play it twice. I make it to about the second 'stage' and then get tired of it. It is very dark and in FPS view.

 

I cannot say enough how much I personally prefer the isometric view. I think I may be in the minority though. Take the MMORPGS for example. I have played in order:

 

Ultima Online - 1.5 years

WWII Online - 2 weeks (Worst release of any game ever in the history of games)

Everquest - 6 months

Dark Ages of Camelot - 6 months

Everquest again - 2 months

Shadowbane - 2 months (This had the potenetial to be one of the best but they screwed it up)

Star Wars Galaxies - 3 months (quit before Jump to Light Speed. Probably would have kept playing for a bit longer if I had waited for this.)

 

Note that I played UO the longest. This is the only ISO of the bunch and I actually went back and played for a couple of months at the end of the list.

 

For me personally I like the RPG aspects. I.E. the shops the buying and selling etc...it just has to be done right. I agree that it shouldn't be cumbersome but this kind of action breaks up the monotony of just killing stuff for 8 hours straight. It allows you to go smoke or use the bathroom every once in a while. One of the drawbacks in a lot of these games is that you have limited inventory space, and rightly so, but you can pickup EVERYTHING!. So you wanna pick up everything because you don't know if you need it but then you have to start shuffling inventory when you get to something you know you need but you are full of crap that you later find is only worth 1gp when you finally get to a store an hour later or worse the one item you decide to drop turns out to be worth 10K. (severe run-on sentence)

 

So like I said it has to be done right. I like the concept of skills outside of fighting skills that allow you to do other things. This is probably a throwback to my MMORPG days but I liked to be able to do other stuff.

 

Just had a new thought. What if you had your own house that is the basis for all of the adventures in the game. Let me go on a tangent...UO, Shadowbane, and Galaxies all had player owned housing. This is one of the greatest aspects to MMO's in my opinion. Shadowbane screwed it up and UO had a limited graphics set but it was still great. It gave you a sense of ownership. Ok back to the thought...If you stay away from consoles, if you had your own house that you could fill up with all the junk collected on the way it would add an interesting element.

 

Of course you are trying to go more simple. This is 180 degrees out of phase with that. Just a thought for the future. Ok...so if your game is set in a magic realm, who's to say you can't call your house to you in towns. I don't think you would want to 'port' back to your house each time cause it interupts the story flow. But... what if you kept a miniature of your house in your inventory (that you want to do away with) and in certain areas you could bring your house to you. Fun!

 

MAN I LOVE VIDEO GAMES. I think it is a sickness. I believe I may need to be medicated.

 

I have got to stop.

 

Wade

[zandoriastudios]

I like the house idea--My wife and I were actually talking about that when I first started brainstorming. But Then I started thinking it was like the Sims, but I didn't think it fit the direction I wanted to go...

Here is another idea that I thought was great: an NPC in the town is a SEER. For a certain amont of gold pieces she will show you a vision of your future. These "visions" are just the normal game cinematics that you would see before entering a new level. So you get a preview of upcoming levels in the game!

 

Last night I started playing "Gauntlet" on a PS2. I played for 6 hours straight! The graphics were not so good, but it was FUN!

I guess I want to make a Hack and Slash arcade game, but with Balders Gate graphics... I think I will make the players character "TAR of Zandoria", my hippo/gladiator instead of a generic warrior,sorceress,etc... Since I'm stripping the RPG stuff down, it is really more a adventure game I guess. What genre is that? Is it still an RPG?

Definately keeping the isometric perspective--first person shooters make me seasick.

[KenH]

I haven't played RPG in a long time....but if it's set in a magic land, you could do anything with the shop. For example, it could all be contained in a magic lamp thing that you rub and the shop instantly appears no matter where you are. The shop owner could be grumpy and if you call him up too much without buying stuff, he mightn't appear at all.

[zandoriastudios]

I didn't realize that they make console game controllers for the PC!!! I checked and MMF (Multimedia Fusion) can use these to control the game! Now I'm really excited

Does anyone here use controllers like this playing games on their PC?

[mediaho]

I didn't realize that they make console game controllers for the PC!!! I checked and MMF (Multimedia Fusion) can use these to control the game! Now I'm really excited

Does anyone here use controllers like this playing games on their PC?

I have an XBox controller hooked up to my work machine. Except for most FPSs and menu-driven interfaces, I prefer it to the mouse/keyboard for games.

[KenH]

I bought a wireless one that I never use. It's just not as responsive as keyboard and mouse......for games like Doom 3 anyway.

[Sacman]

With regards to Game Controllers. I get together with a bunch of friends (6-8) for Halo 2 parties about once a month down in Fort O. They all complain about the controls and wish that they could use keyboard controls instead. I think in this case a lot of it goes back to playing Unreal Tournament for many years before something better (HALO/HALO 2) came along. I personally think that controllers have their place (ie. FPS, racing, sports), but for certain games like RPG, RTS, RTT, SIMS (Simulations not necessarily THE SIMS) I think the point and click works better.

 

For example, I hear you talking about a single player char, but what if you decided to use multiple characters. One of the annoying habits of characters in Auto Defend or Auto Attack mode is to go after the closest enemy or the one that is attacking them. So if you have a bunch of high HP mobs and each of your PC's are trying to take down one each, you are going to take a beating. I like being able to group them and attack one at a time to take them down faster and avoid some of the bruising.

 

I like the 'Seer' idea. Being able to get a glimpse of what is to come might also allow you to make the right purchases if you do in fact include shops.

 

With regards to houses...I have played the original SIMS and the focus was split between how cool can I make my house and can I keep my peeps from peeing on the floor all in a 3.5 minute day. Although player owned housing is a risky option, In a long term game like an MMORPG, it really locked you into the game. It was a healthy break from camping mobs (thankfully not really an issue in UO) or hacking away at a rock wall for 3 hours for some ore to make iron to make armor etc..... Because of the limited graphics set in UO it was a challenge in itself to figure out ways to make things look cool. It was a true 2D game for most of its life before they added in a 3D client. You would have to stack 2 chairs, 3 fishsteaks, a round shields, a lantern, 3 more fish steaks, and another round shield and once everything decayed, it would make a nice wall sconce. As silly as this sounds I spent a ridiculous amount of time trying this kind of crap out.

 

Having said all of that, I know it is beyond the scope of what you want to do. Just want to keep the idea alive.

 

Wade

[starwarsguy]

I'm not talking about hack and slash. I'm talking about those RPGs with so many levels of gameplay that you can play for years. The NPCs feel like people to you.

 

Also, Animal Crossing was really popular...

[zandoriastudios]

So I bought a wireless controller, but the best I could do with it for the games I like is to program the buttons with what are normally hotkeys. I can't use it to control the motion of the characters--even Neverwinter Nights which will let you drive the character with the arrow keys will not let me control it with the D-pad...

So I'm betting that most people who might like the game I have in mind won't be the type that likes controllers--the FPS type games seemed to have no trouble with it. The RPGs are all point and click with the mouse to where you want to go. So I'll probably stay with the keyboard and mouse for my game too.

 

But I really like the Console style, so I may try to do that too. The thing is that if I go that direction and you don't use a joystick or controller, you have to use the keyboard arrow keys... <_ which i don care for.>

[Zaryin]

I myself don't care if I use the Arrow Keys in a game. Maybe its because I'm left handed ?... WHo knows. It doesn't bother me though.

[.:shortdog:.]

you can loose track of time in animal crossing...hey! look, its a weed! i want to pull it! that sort of thing...

[Sacman]

I am left handed and the worst part of using the keyboard for games is that you want to use your left hand for the arrows but all the hot keys are on the left so you end up all crossed up.

[starwarsguy]

LOL. That kinda sucks... I never really thought about what being left-handed does if you're a gamer...

[gschumsky]

I am left handed and the worst part of using the keyboard for games is that you want to use your left hand for the arrows but all the hot keys are on the left so you end up all crossed up.

That's good info to know, and something really to consider. What's kinda cool about our game is the character is driected by mouse (you click and drag a little/point in the direction you want him/her to go. The more you drag the faster they go...kinda like a speed control). Hot keys are your function keys. You take your inventory and place it in different inventory windows at the bottom of the screen (say you want to switch between weapons). Each window represents a function key.

And for attacking, space bar or left mouse button. To defend, shift or right mouse button.

 

Too simple.

 

Greg

[Zaryin]

The funny thing about being left handed is I use the mouse with my right hand. I make all my art with my right hand on the pc, but if I try to draw with my right hand -- I might as well be 2 years old again .

 

Maybe the reason the Hotkey and Arrow keys don't bother me is I've been playing guitar for years right-handed so am slightly ambidextrous, although I think every left handed person kinda has to be.

[mediaho]

I am left handed and the worst part of using the keyboard for games is that you want to use your left hand for the arrows but all the hot keys are on the left so you end up all crossed up.

That's good info to know, and something really to consider.

Another think to keep in mind is people playing on laptops. For Pirates!, almost all of the controls are by the num pad which laptops don't have. Remember to make it really easy for your player to re-map the keys to anything he/she likes if possible. It's something that's seemingly simple but many developers neglect to do it. It makes a big difference to players who don't like standard controls or who are, like some of you, wrong-handed.

[Sacman]

See, like Zaryin, I use the mouse right handed. But, if I have to drive with the arrow keys I have to do it left handed. I can actually use the mouse left handed just as good as right handed without changing the buttons. If I have to use a clip board, I turn it upside down and clip the bottom of the paper to the clip. That statement, of course, has absolutely no relevance just though t I would mention it.

 

The WSAD keys in place of the arrows work great for keyboard driven movement.

Using QWEASDZXC even gives you 8 directions of movement.

 

With regards to playing the guitar. I actually think a left handed person has an advantage here. If you are playing a standard right handed guitar, you are fretting with your more dextrous hand. This has got to be an advanage cause the right hand does so much less than the left. That is assuming you suck like I do and cannot actually pick out anything but stick to chords.

 

Wade

[starwarsguy]

I'm a righty, but I love WASD! My game I'm making right now has editable controls!

[Feline Witch]

Which game engine do you guys use

 

Cos I am wondering which game engines will acccept AM

[starwarsguy]

I make games using Flash and Multimedia Fusion. I also mod Battlefield 1942, Battlefield Vietnam, Battlefield 2, Command and Conquer, Half-Life 2, and Counter-Strike: Source. (I use 3DS Max for modding, though)

 

I love modding!

[Sacman]

To answer Feline Witch, A:M has an exporter for .x models which are Direct X models.

 

It really depends on what you are looking for. Will is currently using Multimedia Fusion and I think he can back me up in that it is great for side scrollers and iso games but probably would not do for a FPS.

 

There is an engine called Torque which sounds really nice but I do not use it nor have I tried a demo. They have recently added a mod for it specifically for RTS games which is intriguing for me.

 

I actually own a copy of 3d Game Studio A4. This is a great software for just about any type of game but the learning curve at the time was too steep for me so I stopped using it. If I dusted it off now I would probably pick it up pretty quickly but I am now so many versions behind that it would cost me a bit to get back up to current.

 

Using something like MMF does not really tie you down to any particular modeller since it uses mostly (if not all???) 2D sprite models. These can be done in literally any good animator of which A:M is one of the best. Just take your screenshots at 30 degrees from the horizon. Snap 8 frames. Rotate 45 degrees and do it again. fairly simple to explain until you have to do 8 directions for every single action for every single creature. Makes 2D sprites kind of scary. If MMF uses 3D (Will???) then it is even easier. Create your models and export them as .x models.

 

If you haven't already. go to Gamedev.net and Sourceforge.net. These are two of the best indie game developer sites going IMO.

 

You can also follow Starwarsguy and get a good moddable game for the learning aspect. From my experience, Morrowind and Never Winter Nights were two of the best moddable games ever made. There is a new Morrowind s coming out soon, so the tool set there would probably be fantastic if they upgraded at all what they had before.

 

Ramble, ramble. ramble.

 

Wade

[Feline Witch]

Thanxs! As for gamedev., I think they are contemplating killing me, I must drive them crazy with my constant questions.

 

 

The engine I am looking at currently is Blitz3D. If I make the characters/monsters/NPCs in AM, how hard would it be to export them to Blitz3D?

[zandoriastudios]

Take a look at my avatar. It is a mini tutorial for rendering your isometric animations!

Create your Orthogonal Camera and rotate it 45 degrees to the left and 35 degrees downwards [Wade, a true Isometric drawing will show the bottom edge of a rectangular object at 30 degrees off of the horizontal, this is because it is was originally done with the triangle and T-square. To duplicate this in an isometric rendering your downward angle is almost 35 degrees down (maybe more like 34.75 degrees)]

Create your loopable action--walkcycle,attack action, hit animation, etc.

Assuming you have a 1 second, 12 frame animation that you are going to repeat 8 directions:

Drop your character in the choreography. drop the action on him. set the actions repeat to 8. Set a rotation keyframe on the character and change the rotation driver to Euler.Set interpolation to HOLD.

Go to 1 second on the timeline and rotate 45 degrees, set interpolation to HOLD.

Go to 2 second on the timeline rotate to 90 degrees, set interpolation to Hold.

Go to 3 seconds rotate 135 degrees, set interpolation.....you get the idea

4 seconds 180 degrees ...

5 seconds 225 degrees...

6 second 270 degrees...

7 seconds 315 degrees...

 

So now your character will perform the action every second snapping to the next angle at each repeat of your action. Render the whole sequence and you have your sprite set for that action.

Change what action you drop on the character, leave eveything else alone, rerender. then you have your next set.

100 x 100 pixel animations will render in split seconds...you can render your entire range of actions for each character in your game in a matter of minutes apiece. All of the animations will line up no problem, all of your lighting will match. Use identical rigs and you can use the same actions for them if you like!

[Guest RemoteViewer]

*Deleted*

[nixie]

I had a go at making a game in the games factory (an older version of multimedia fusion i think) had it looking quite pretty considering i was using macromedia extreme 3d. I can see AM being far superior especially for charactor animation.

 

RPG/action adventure? - Heres one im looking forward to!

 

good luck, il be watching.

 

nixie

 

[Feline Witch]

The engine I am looking at currently is Blitz3D. If I make the characters/monsters/NPCs in AM, how hard would it be to export them to Blitz3D?

 

 

It would be as easy as buying the AMXtex exporter for $20 from obsidian games. I have done a fair amount of research, and from what I have come up with, this directx exporter is something of the holy grail of game making including full bones and texture exporting. I have found nothing like it and have found hundreds of people who are unaware of it, but wish and beg for the features it is already delivering to AM users. In my opinion it is the only way to go for making game content.

 

You can look it over here: Obsidian Games

 

Does AMXtex really export to Blitz3D? If it does, I think I have got everything sorted.