vf124 Posted July 27, 2004 Share Posted July 27, 2004 There is nothing that says those that have already completed exercises before cannot post their results in this first monthly course as well. Everyone is welcome to redo the exercises and add their personal touches. Sounds like fun ... count me in ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dazza_13 Posted July 28, 2004 Share Posted July 28, 2004 Hi Rodney, Keep up the good work. I have recently purchased AM, therefore a virgin user. This forum has outstanding info and contributors. Cheers from down under Dazza . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Rodney Posted July 28, 2004 Author Admin Share Posted July 28, 2004 dazza, Glad to have you online with us! Hope we'll be seeing a lot more of you in the future too. Best, Rodney Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morphy Posted July 29, 2004 Share Posted July 29, 2004 Everyone is welcome to redo the exercises and add their personal touches. all of them. yeah, I think I'd like to join in. I know I did the exercises only recently, but I really want to do at least a few of them again - or rather, to do my own version trying to take the material in the book and use it to do something of my own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CRToonMike Posted July 29, 2004 Share Posted July 29, 2004 Hi Rodney, Morphy brought up a point that I'm uncertain about... Namely how close to the printed tutorials do we have to be? For instance, in the "Chorus Line" exercise I used the Cat, Tarzan, Jane and Kiminobo (or however you spell it). The way I figure it, as long as the completed exercise meets or exceeds the parameters of the printed guide, it's cool. Am I right in assuming this? I've been using A:M for a few years and only recently have I started to "think in the program" like I do with photoshop. Of course, the giraffe and plane exercise will be done as stated in the book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vf124 Posted July 29, 2004 Share Posted July 29, 2004 Alright Gale, Pending final adjustments, here is a Graduation Certificate for completing The Art of Animation:Master. Rodney, The Certificate looks fine as is ... please use one "b" in Chub ... Thanks... BTW, I plan to use my new character for your August Class, it will be my "2nd go around of the Art of A:M" ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogue66 Posted July 29, 2004 Share Posted July 29, 2004 I'mmmmmm Backkkkkkkkk Did ya miss me?? Between life running square over me and doing that "Make A Paycheck Thing" I totally was kept away But hey, new month, clean slate, subscribed to NEW title of threads,,, yeah I think I'm back in the game,,,I think,,, I hope I don't remember what I did anyway lol, so is not like I missed much eh? I'll give it another shot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ultraapa Posted July 29, 2004 Share Posted July 29, 2004 I want one! The certificate looks nice. Really nice. Hopefully I'll get mine soon. I could put it in my office at home. If I did not miss it. I think that version of Keekat is something Chubs (vf124) actually did. Nice touch. I know I'm on that list somewhere Mr. Baker, sir! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Rodney Posted July 30, 2004 Author Admin Share Posted July 30, 2004 Michael, To me the exercises are designed to be more fun than work. It's an introduction to Animation:Master and the tools that it makes available to the artist. I'd guess there are at least two disciplines to take under consideration when considering completing the exercises in The Art of Animation:Master. The path each person takes should probably be dictated by their goals. Consider the following: Person A wants to move toward a job in the 3D industry. Animation:Master is a path toward that goal for them. Person A might take the the assignment of completing The Art of Animation:Master very seriously with a focus on staying as close to the assigned task as possible. This exercises the artist's ability to produce the work of the client... and not the artist. Person B is interested in 3D animation from outside of strictly professional perspective. The artist is in charge. The downside of this is that while being an artist is important... results in the face of a deadline are more important to a companies bottom line. If personal satisfaction is most important though... the artist enjoys a great deal of creative freedom. As I am a hobbyist, I lean more toward the Person B mentality... my chances of financial success in the 3D Industry aren't so good... I'd suggest (to most A:M Users) that being either Person A or B is not the right path. To be successful in your efforts you need to have the best qualities of both a nose to the grindstone professional and an artist that creates his own rules. So do it all! Try to follow the exercises as closely as possible, then run through it again a second time with variations, adding elements from your ever growiing storehouse of knowledge. That's my few random thoughts on the matter. *And you'll get extra credit for artistic merit and participation! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Rodney Posted July 30, 2004 Author Admin Share Posted July 30, 2004 Let me know what you think of this round of certificates. If statisfied grab em... if not... comment and we'll make changes. Gale, Not sure if you are suggesting we go with the original Exercise 1 certificate or not. I do like the simplicity of the earlier one and losing the walking Thom in my hard drive crash still makes me want to render him out again. The frames I used weren't optimum for the earlier certificate either so I'd be able to fix that if I rendered it again. To those still awaiting certificates, Let me know where to focus next! If I have time and you've posted a workable image I'll try to work that into your certificate. Don't hold your breath though! VF124's certificate Ultraapa's certificate More on the way! Also note: I plan to keep the higher resolution certificates for as long as possible. If the uploaded pdf doesn't meet your image resolution requirements let me know and I can email larger rez certificates. I think I still owe a few of those... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Rodney Posted July 30, 2004 Author Admin Share Posted July 30, 2004 I'm glad to hear that so many people plan to participate in August! Awesome news indeed. I'm already working on some things to help the process flow a little bit better and also to help during two brief absences on my part; one work related and one (hopefully) SIGGRAPH related! If anyone wants to champion a specific exercise please let me know. There are a lot of hidden goodies related to The Art of Animation:Master and hopefully we'll be able to add some of them into the course. Best, Rodney Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Rodney Posted July 30, 2004 Author Admin Share Posted July 30, 2004 Christine, Glad to have you back! I was wondering where you'd disappeared to. Figured you had just been working on some super secret project. Hope time will allow you to join in with us in August. Best, Rodney Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Rodney Posted July 30, 2004 Author Admin Share Posted July 30, 2004 This one still makes me laugh everytime I see it! Exercise 6: The Door is Stuck by Morphy Rogue66, TC, and Morphy, I've sent you both Forum mail but not sure if they made it through. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vf124 Posted July 30, 2004 Share Posted July 30, 2004 Gale, Not sure if you are suggesting we go with the original Exercise 1 certificate or not. I do like the simplicity of the earlier one and losing the walking Thom in my hard drive crash still makes me want to render him out again. The frames I used weren't optimum for the earlier certificate either so I'd be able to fix that if I rendered it again. Rodney, The Certificate is beautiful ... I too miss the "Thom" ... he is one of my favorite models ... besides, my top secret Picaninny model ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vf124 Posted July 30, 2004 Share Posted July 30, 2004 Person B is interested in 3D animation from outside of strictly professional perspective. Or who wants to learn for the fun of it ... that would be me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-TC- Posted July 30, 2004 Share Posted July 30, 2004 Got your e-mail Rodney. I had a quick look at one of the certificates you posted earlier, see you put the plane and giraffe on it. Nice touch. And nice job on exercise 6 Morphy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-TC- Posted July 30, 2004 Share Posted July 30, 2004 Im up for it. Im still workin through the Complete Guide to AM 2002 so ill post up exercises when i can. I'll do the exercises with different charaters this time. And i'll be glad to help any other people Starting 1 August 2004 Tomorrow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morphy Posted July 30, 2004 Share Posted July 30, 2004 This one still makes me laugh everytime I see it! Thanks, Rodney - I'm honoured! We've had power cuts here all day, so I just got your email (and replied). Morph Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogue66 Posted July 31, 2004 Share Posted July 31, 2004 Uuhhh, day after tomorrow LOL. Tomorrow is Blue Moon day Well that doesn't sound right does it? lol Hehehe I may cheat,,,,,start tomorrow anyways Will prob be after midnight when I get something resembling something anyway,,,, so technically,, that wouldn't REALLY be cheating now would it? Well, not technically,,,kinda,,sorta Oh goody, more Tia Chi Wabooses to post Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Rodney Posted July 31, 2004 Author Admin Share Posted July 31, 2004 I think we'll start up on time but the 'Official' launch will most likely be the 5th of August... as I'm living in a tent for 3 days prior to that! Rodney... computerless for 3 days??? I doubt it. I'll have to sneak into someplace with an internet connection! We'll start posting as of tomorrow and people can claim their desks and sharpen their pencils... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Rodney Posted July 31, 2004 Author Admin Share Posted July 31, 2004 I've been strolling down memory lane and researching exercise completion dates before starting up the August course... Everyone has experience *before* and *outside* of Animation:Master. This post from The Art of Animation:Master discussion made me smile! Spider and Snake sketch by Dan Roberts In all it's simplicity there is still a powerful story in this little picture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zacktaich Posted July 31, 2004 Share Posted July 31, 2004 You can do it Rod! (I just got back from three weeks...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Rodney Posted July 31, 2004 Author Admin Share Posted July 31, 2004 Welcome back Zack!!! Hope you plan on sticking around for awhile. There are models to be splined after all! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Rodney Posted July 31, 2004 Author Admin Share Posted July 31, 2004 Tom Cass! Congratulations! You can download your certificate of completion HERE! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Rodney Posted July 31, 2004 Author Admin Share Posted July 31, 2004 John Scott! Congratulations to you too! You can download your certificate of completion HERE! I'm thinking maybe you guys should get a ticket for speeding though.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Rodney Posted July 31, 2004 Author Admin Share Posted July 31, 2004 Rogue66 said: Oh goody, more Tia Chi Wabooses to post This aughta be good! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vf124 Posted July 31, 2004 Share Posted July 31, 2004 We'll start posting as of tomorrow and people can claim their desks and sharpen their pencils... Mr. Rodney, Can I please sit by the window? .... Let the Art of AM begin ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-TC- Posted July 31, 2004 Share Posted July 31, 2004 Thanx for the certificate Rodney. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Rodney Posted July 31, 2004 Author Admin Share Posted July 31, 2004 Since I no longer have to worry about issuing 19 certificates for each person it looks like I'll have the occasional second to personalize certificates. Some changes may be subtle (see example below) and others larger... for instance... Exercise 6: The door is stuck definitely deserves to be spotlighted on the certificate so it may appear soon on most certificates. The goal will be to keep things interesting for those that complete the exercises and to keep me interested as well. In short, each and every certificate is different even if only in tiny little ways. ) I want you to remember the experience of diving into Animation:Master each and every time you look at the certificate. You've earned the memories! For those with an eye for detail, can you see some of the (very) subtle changes in these two? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Rodney Posted July 31, 2004 Author Admin Share Posted July 31, 2004 You are very welcome TC! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Rodney Posted July 31, 2004 Author Admin Share Posted July 31, 2004 Michael said: I'll join in the fun, as I have done exercises 1,2,3,5, 13 and 18 already. I'm in the process of creating a web page on my site to chart my progress and will post to this here thread when done and as updates warrant. Somehow I must have missed some of that important information! You are planning to chart your progress via a web page!!! That's awesome! ) Thanks for one of those.. "Now why didn't I think of that" moments. ) Looking forward to seeing your web page and progress through the exercises. Rodney Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Rodney Posted July 31, 2004 Author Admin Share Posted July 31, 2004 VF124 said: Mr. Rodney, Can I please sit by the window? .... Let the Art of AM begin ... Go right ahead... we brought in an extra comfortable one and put it right over there. ;o) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vf124 Posted July 31, 2004 Share Posted July 31, 2004 For you vf124 (Chubbs I believe), I'm not sure what your intentions are but your remark; however, non intentional is regrettable. I do not know your age, but the language is an old one and one I would never hope to hear from someone of the current generations of people. This is the Character I've created ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vf124 Posted July 31, 2004 Share Posted July 31, 2004 For you vf124 (Chubbs I believe), I'm not sure what your intentions are but your remark; however, non intentional is regrettable. I do not know your age, but the language is an old one and one I would never hope to hear from someone of the current generations of people. This is me .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ultraapa Posted July 31, 2004 Share Posted July 31, 2004 Interesting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vf124 Posted July 31, 2004 Share Posted July 31, 2004 As far as I can tell Gale may be black himself. As far as I know... you are white. In other words... I don't know as color doesn't cloud my judgement on the matter. The one thing that seems certain is that no offense seemed intended. I believe most can see fm the posted photo which catagory I belong ... the following examples are what TODAY is considered Negro Art, or Black Art, if you will ... all my characters for my 1st short film are & will be modeled around them ... It's called FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vf124 Posted July 31, 2004 Share Posted July 31, 2004 As far as I can tell Gale may be black himself. As far as I know... you are white. In other words... I don't know as color doesn't cloud my judgement on the matter. The one thing that seems certain is that no offense seemed intended. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vf124 Posted July 31, 2004 Share Posted July 31, 2004 As far as I can tell Gale may be black himself. As far as I know... you are white. In other words... I don't know as color doesn't cloud my judgement on the matter. The one thing that seems certain is that no offense seemed intended. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ultraapa Posted July 31, 2004 Share Posted July 31, 2004 OK. I see Chubs. You have an interesting artform. I'm familiar with the artwork of which you speak so I don't need the lesson, but thanks anyway. I have an affinity for Egyptian Art (which is African in Nature) and African Tribal Art. ... I'm not sure what your intentions are... When in the course of having a dialogue, usually I don't here words such as the one that you wrote. I simply did not know what your background was or why you even mentioned it, hence my quote above. It makes all the more sense to me now that I have some background on you. I; however, find your choice to use the words that you do on this forum interesting, but nevertheless your choice. Thank you for the extra information. I'm not entirely sure how this post is coming across - sometimes the words on the computer doesn't really carry the tone that is meant. So for the record, I will say that I understand your artwork and I have no issues. I wish you well in your endeavors and so with that, my friend lets get back to the animation. And so no hard feelings. Rodney I think that we can consider this matter closed, unless Chubs has something else to say. Ahh, an amiable conclusion to an interesting potentially explosive conversation. Best Regards, Ultraapa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martin Posted July 31, 2004 Share Posted July 31, 2004 Negro Art I think the concept art around the term "Picaninny" is precious, and I think that Gale will do a great job with it. My interest in "banned" art is similar. My most expensive original oil painting is by the Hildebrandt brothers (white), from the comic “Blackjack” by Alex Simmons (black), with the hero (black) holding two pistols over Hitler and Tojo with Japan’s Raising Sun and Germany’s Swastika in the background. I have original art pages from comics that contain images of women that were wounded in the pursuit of justice, much like male superheroes are wounded. What makes this art interesting is that it is rare – primarily because of social taboos that blanket all expression, even those that are valid and provocative. Once, a customer made an animation about a chicken where the dialog was spoken with a hackneyed, down-home accent. Several viewers (white) took offence because they thought the accent was black. I reminded them it was a chicken. Martin Hash Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vf124 Posted July 31, 2004 Share Posted July 31, 2004 I think the concept art around the term "Picaninny" is precious, and I think that Gale will do a great job with it. THANK YOU, KIND SIR !!!!!!!!!!!!! As a beginner animator ... this coming fm a person like yourself is extremely reassuring ... Peace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vf124 Posted July 31, 2004 Share Posted July 31, 2004 Go right ahead... we brought in an extra comfortable one and put it right over there. ;o) Well ... now that it's OK to bring Picaninny along, we will both be there ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogue66 Posted August 1, 2004 Share Posted August 1, 2004 Yeah, The certificate on the right has a different plain and giraff. Teeheehee and the date too, but that doesn't count huh? lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Rodney Posted August 1, 2004 Author Admin Share Posted August 1, 2004 I go away for a little while to return to see that Martin himself posted! Wow. Kevin, I do understand where you are coming from so hang in there with us. It is entirely too easy to turn on a person whose intensions were only good in the first place. You can hold your head high knowing that you championed those that might have been offended. It's clear to me that your intensions were to prevent those offenses from festering in this forum. If nothing else you've educated me on some language usage I didn't know before. The cautionary note you raise is not lost on me. Gales subject matter is one that WILL offend some people that is for certain. I view much of it (as evidently Gale and Martinn do) from a historical perspective . There are some early Disney comic strips and early animation that I'd love to see more of today but they have been censored out of existance for the most part. They are part of the historical record but cannot be seen for fear of offense. While I might usually champion those who take care not to offend I think when it comes to the historical record that I should be allowed to determine it's worth (or lack thereof) for myself. I have a saying that I think holds true in this case; "All art is ugly." I still believe this is true. Even the cutest little thing can hide a monsterous offense within. Throughout history such has often been the case. Is there not good reason that idolatry has long been shunned and outlawed by many societies? I'll suggest that there is always room for restraint from the excesses of the human imagination. To many people's eyes, it may not seem that "art is ugly", but I submit to you that they have yet to see that object (or artistic expression) from enough perspectives nor have they explored the potentials of it's form. Even a 'seemingly' innocent image can be modified to no good end. Now, if one considers the origin of a given image it probably was already a corruption of an even earlier image when it was created. Now, when dealing wiith the creators of these artforms (and there are more than a few artisans in this crowd!) we should all be prepared to give each room to express their art as they see fit. There are limits of course and I'm certainly glad there are. That is were law and law enforcement come to play. Around here... I believe Steve Sappington is still the law! ) For what its worth, I am personally offended by a great many things. However, I try not to let my sensibilities rule the day in a public forum. People usually don't see my prejudices unless they ask for them. I 'prejudge' things all the time and reject from my presence those that offend me. Rightly so, I have limited control over the expressions of others but I do have considerable control over my own. I hope I'll always exercise that control wisely. Self control is one of the best tools we can wield against offenses. Come to think of it... I think maybe I've failed to exercise some of that in my response here. ;o) Most late night posts should probably not be sent. In the case of this one... it comes after hours of frustration getting my modem to (PLEASE!) let me back online. Hopefully, that frustration hasn't overly clouded my rambling mind. If this post disappears you'll know I excercised a little more restraint than I'm usually known for. ;o) Point? Yeah there's a point... ) Freedom of expression inherintly implies the existance of a means to censure that expression. If censure is not applied internally by the originator(s) external censure will be triggered. The extent and success of the external censure will depend upon the pressure, duration and energy applied against the expression. ...or something like that! Whaddya want... I just made that up!!! ;o) End Ramble. Best, Rodney So... Is everyone ready to start going through The Art of Animation:Master or what? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Rodney Posted August 1, 2004 Author Admin Share Posted August 1, 2004 Well ... now that it's OK to bring Picaninny along, we well both be there ... Ohoh! Why does that trigger warning sounds in my head! Artist's and their attachment to their creations.... sheesh! That'll be fine... just don't disturb anyone's concentration or out you and your friend will go! Then you'll have to curse me from the street. hehe. At the risk of offending the originating artist (that'd be you Gale! ) I'd like to suggest that you either add a light directly in front of the model or plan to always render with rather light backgrounds. It doesn't have to be a very strong light... but I couldn't see much of your character in the earlier post. I'd be glad to walk you through the process of getting the right light if you don't already have it down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Rodney Posted August 1, 2004 Author Admin Share Posted August 1, 2004 (edited) You can get 'official' credit for completing the exercises in The Art of Animation:Master. If you wish to recieve a certificate for your efforts I'll need to know some information about you. Send information to rodney.baker@gmail.com. Name: (As you want it to appear on the certificate) Exercises Completed: These should be posted in the New Users Forum but other arrangement can be made. Date Completed: (If you don't recall exact date... guess... but guess well ) Instructor: (If Any - This is for courses taught at fine institutions throughout the world) Remarks/Suggestions for Improvement: (Optional but appreciated) Standard Disclaimer: No endorsement by Hash Inc is intended nor should be implied. The value of certification is directly porportional to the experience gained by completing the exercises. DO NOT SEND CERTIFICATE RELATED EMAIL TO HASH INC. Send it to rodney.baker@gmail.com Your moderator volunteers his time to aid in your enjoyment and usage of Animation:Master. There may be times where he cannot respond to your queries. But ask around... that's not very likely! Certificate images are subject to change without notice. Here is a past example: Edited October 2, 2004 by Rodney Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Rodney Posted August 1, 2004 Author Admin Share Posted August 1, 2004 [Edit] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vf124 Posted August 1, 2004 Share Posted August 1, 2004 At the risk of offending the originating artist (that'd be you Gale! ) I'd like to suggest that you either add a light directly in front of the model or plan to always render with rather light backgrounds. It doesn't have to be a very strong light... but I couldn't see much of your character in the earlier post.Two things, sometime ago, I purchased "digital lighting & rendering by birn" ... since that time, I've had a number of phone cons w/ Heath Hash who so graciously helped me set up the lighting for my short film. Now, if my old tired brain serves me well, I sent to you a copy of Picaninny w/ some of his props ... I do believe that lighting was pretty close to a the real thing, just maybe, Sir, you could take another look ... With the help fm Heath, I'd have to say the stage lighting is "right on" ... I'd be glad to walk you through the process of getting the right light if you don't already have it down. Just one note, do you remember "Bluesy, the blues playing teardrop?" ... oddly, after posting a small ruff or two, my ideal got scammed ... let's just say I learned a HARD lesson ... I wanted to upload a poster of Picaninny in "The Big Show" ... however, my wife recommended I don't My "Picaninny Top Secret Project" will not be scammed like "Bluesy" was ... so therefore, the lighting of the face .... Peace BTW ... I believe I sent you a shot of Bluesy as well ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Rodney Posted August 1, 2004 Author Admin Share Posted August 1, 2004 Gale. I don't recall getting any model or props... perhaps you mean you sent images. If that is the case they are safe and secure on my harddrive that I don't have access too at the current time. So I have no way to check again... : o ( Sorry to hear you had trouble with someone taking your previous character. Even without you posting your new character online though I'd wager someone else has beat you to that one as well. I don't mean to make light of a serious matter but many ideas aren't exactly original. It's an common phenomenon. An old friend of mine and I have long thought someone must be spying on us because all of our great ideas seemed to show up in novels, comics, etc. Sooner or later you'll want to post a pic of your character so I'd suggest thorough documentation of your creation process, copyright, and (if really serious about it) consultation with a knowledgeable attorney. For anyone uncertain about using your own characters to do the exercises you may want to stick with the models supplied by Hash Inc. to complete the exercises. The main reason isn't one of safeguarding though... it's to make sure the models you use conform to the necessary requirements for the specific exercise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vf124 Posted August 1, 2004 Share Posted August 1, 2004 I don't recall getting any model or props... perhaps you mean you sent images. If that is the case they are safe and secure on my harddrive that I don't have access too at the current time. So I have no way to check again... : o ( Sure, I did send images ... and yes I do have documentation ... & yes, I'm a lawyer, so I don't need one net yet anyway .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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