luckbat Posted August 25, 2004 Share Posted August 25, 2004 Since we've all turned into acting coaches on this thread, I'll throw in my bit as well. When we use the karate-chop gesture for emphasis, we always break eye contact just before we make it and resume it as we complete the gesture. (Specifically, we look left, or close our eyes.) Go ahead, try it. If you maintain eye contact as you make this gesture, the listener will flinch. In the Quicktime, he does look left just before the gesture, but he resumes eye contact as he begins the chop. It's a fraction of a second too soon. I realize he's speaking to an audience here, but the principle is the same. Other than that, it's it's gold. I'd vote for him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KenH Posted August 25, 2004 Share Posted August 25, 2004 Go ahead, try it. If you maintain eye contact as you make this gesture, the listener will flinch. Good point. I'd go as far as to turn his head down as he raises his hand and then raise it as his hand lowers. Kind of keeping the balance and adding extra emphasis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ypoissant Posted August 25, 2004 Share Posted August 25, 2004 Nice subtle adjustment. And you adjusted the "or I'm crazy" gesture just right. It does not feel out of place anymore. You've added this show of change of attitude before "Either I'm dead right". But, I don't know, the transition does not seems strong enough. I mean, there is clearly a strong change in both attitude and mind state in the voice. I can feel some internal conflict preparing to explode at this moment but his body and facial expression don't show it that much. The subtlety you've put in there is excellent for a more realistic character. But for a cartoony character like this one, I expect it to be more visible if not exagerated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tobinjim Posted August 25, 2004 Share Posted August 25, 2004 Looking super silky smooth now! I'm not sure I'd worry any more about the actions. We're all too focused on such minute things in a short clip. My wife and children have watched it and not one of them has caught nor felt any unsmoothness! You had written earlier about about 20 extra frames of preroll to give Kevin some time at the lecturn. If you were to do that (or longer) from a camera angle that gave us some sense of the audience he's addressing, then we'd have some visual anchors for where his eye movements fixate. My personal choice would be the camera pulling forward in the space between the shoulders of two people (if that's appropriate for you scene), such that the shoulders are very out of focus because depth-of-field is centered on Kevin. It'd be short and subtle. I sure wish I could animate emotion the way you do! Is there a bio-wet chip I need to buy for my brain stem? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KenH Posted August 25, 2004 Share Posted August 25, 2004 We're all too focused on such minute things in a short clip. My wife and children have watched it and not one of them has caught nor felt any unsmoothness! Aha! Until the suggestions are implemented, you cannot know their effects on you. But you're right, it's just opinion that Sam can make his own judgement on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tobinjim Posted August 25, 2004 Share Posted August 25, 2004 Ken: Go read the April 2004 Scientific American article, "Tyranny of Choice" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross Smith Posted August 26, 2004 Share Posted August 26, 2004 Wow. Those are some of the best eye- and headlines I've ever seen. Excellent acting job -- and has come a long way since the WIP before it. It's amazing how much you can communicate with just the lids, no brows. I'm taking that lesson away, for sure. I just keep watching it over and over, staring at the mouth. The way his lips slighly favor up and right when he says the "shh" in "patience" adds so much character! No offense, but the lip sync in "No One" has nothing on this. "TRY your PATience", the fist motions are dead-on. I would not have made the decision to move the hands asymmetrically like that, but now I see that the stillness of his left emphasizes the motion of the right. I remember you told me you had the original footage for visual reference, but this is nothing short of great work. My only, lonely crit: at the very beginning, I think he pulls away from the podium too quickly. Not that it's bad, but I would try slowing it a little. More! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parlo Posted August 27, 2004 Author Share Posted August 27, 2004 Thanks for all the brilliant comments guys. I took a whole day away from the computer yesterday - my first in a long long time - and I'm happy to report that no only is the sky still there... it's still blue. That's comforting to know. I'm going to polish this off this weekend. It's just a detail job now. I'm going to address alot of what you people have been writing about so I'll comment on it all when I've put the hours in, not before... Thanks again.. this thread has helped keep the motor running. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parlo Posted August 30, 2004 Author Share Posted August 30, 2004 New render - Can't see it anymore, but I'm pretty pleased with it. QT - Sorenson3 - 1.2mb I'll rest my eyes then write a bit more and address the comments later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ypoissant Posted August 30, 2004 Share Posted August 30, 2004 Superb! The subtle eyes lids motions that you added right before "either I'M..." is working admirably. And the eye arches and mouth poses are very well in tune with "I'm crazy". I don't see what to add. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBarrett Posted August 30, 2004 Share Posted August 30, 2004 Looks pretty good, Sam! Here are some things that could still be punched up a notch... The overall body poses don't really sell his tension as well as they could. The line of action is very vertical all the way through, even when he blows up and yells. Lip sync. Overall, it's not bad. Some shapes aren't as strong as they should be, though. Some examples...the "r" sound in "get in here" needs a stronger purse of the lips. The jaw should close a bit more for the "t" at the end of "I know that," and his relaxed mouth right after that, before the next phrase begins, is open a bit too much. It doesn't give the jaw any place to go for the first sound on the next word. Nice work on closing his lips during that frustrated part, but they need to open a little sooner...listen really closely to the audio and you can hear when the lips separate again. When he looks down, lower the upper lids more. A lot of the time they're still pretty far open, and it feels kinda odd. Try doing that yourself...at least for me, I find that even when trying to force my eyes "wide open," the upper lids are at about half-mast when I look down an extreme amount. Try adding some side-to-side tilt to his head on some poses. This would be especially helpful at the end when he goes ballistic, to contrast with his attempt to rationally explain his point to his audience in the earlier part of the clip. The head pose on "dead right" seems to be an ideal place for some tilt to really help sell his frustration. His brows could be used more effectively to sell all that inner turmoil he's feeling. Keeping them so generically wide doesn't say much about his emotional state. I picture a bit of a sad tilt to them in the earlier section, then as *his* patience is getting tried while he talks to them about trying *their* patience, start to introduce some downward poses in there. He's fighting within himself to keep from blowing up. Eventually it doesn't work, and he belts out his final line, where the brows should really dig in to sell that anger and frustration he's feeling as he tries to make his point. Even though the feet are off-screen, don't totally ignore them. True, you don't need to go whole-hog and key foot and heel rolls, but there should still be some feeling that the feet are planted on solid ground when they're supposed to be planted on solid ground. For the bulk of the clip it feels like he's floating, including his feet. You can just tell by looking at the legs that there's no bend happening during all those accents and steps. After his "I know that" accent, it feels like the hips and shoulders are going in opposite directions...the hips slightly left, the shoulders slightly right...leaving him in a bit of an odd stance. The arms feel a tad stiff. He's tense, so they should be stiff a little, but there's something un-tense-ly stiff about them that's hard to put my finger on. The completely-straight fingers during his "crazy" swing are a problem. Part of the problem is also the hand's angle to the camera. It could be turned a bit more so that the back of the hand is facing the camera. Another problem is the nearly-horizontal position of the forearm. Get the wrist higher, with the arm at more of an angle, and do something more dramatic with the fingers. Another tutorial to check out on Keith's site is his recent blurb on forces, which will help another issue with that "crazy" swing. The hips and arm both come out of their extreme poses at the same time, so the power behind the move doesn't feel quite right. If the hips are the driving force, then the arm should have a little delay to it. That should keep you busy for a while. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBarrett Posted August 30, 2004 Share Posted August 30, 2004 Whoops...forgot that the other reference I made to Keith's tutes was elsewhere. Anyhoo, Keith Lango has some nifty new tutorials up on his site, some of which could help with certain issues in this clip. http://www.keithlango.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Rodney Posted August 30, 2004 Admin Share Posted August 30, 2004 Justin, Thanks for letting us know about Keith's updates... I especially like the one on arcs... I definitely learned more about how to think in arcs... something I thought I knew a lot about! Thanks again... Like you said though.... your suggestions should keep Parlo busy for awhile. I fear for his sanity if he keeps tweaking.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parlo Posted August 31, 2004 Author Share Posted August 31, 2004 Wow - thanks again Justin for your mini-novel-crits... When someone posts something like that, it should be assigned it's own ISBN number. I spend a couple of hours trying to put the main jist of your notes into action (there are a number of them that haven't been addressed yet.. but the main ones, the ones I saw as the most crucial are there in some form) QT - Sorenson3 - 1.2mb I think it's got life again. The head angle note is the one that gained the most ground. I just didn't see it. I suppose that's one of the perils of working from video reference - you fear that you'll "break it" if you push the poses much further than what you see. Some areas still need work - The move on "I hate to stand here" currently looks like some long forgotten disco jive. It suffers from being a transition point between 2 fixes and I need to go in there and rework it entirely. It's past my 2am curfew.. so what ya gonna do? The important thing is that I can see what I need to do again. The blizzard has cleared. Lip sync still needs some touching up - I'll get it one day. I just feel that I'm flying blind with it the majority of the time. Now... If I'm right, I've got some comment catching up to do - Yves - Thanks for your positive comments. I relied alot on the video reference for the eye movements. Despite the problem stated above I think I'm going to use video reference alot more from now on. It shows me timings and combinations of timings that I would either never of thought of, or never would have thought would work. That's gotta be good. Ross - I addressed your podium crit. And you were right... that action needed a little more time and has also benefitted hugely from a little "air" before it. Ken - The brow work is still rough.. I need to address some rigging problems before I can take it further. But your right.. that is a moment that needs them. tobinjim - I'm always tempted to make these animation exercises into more than they are but I really try to make them as simple as possible... so that it's all about the character work, and not a exercise in camera work or edits. I did add the 20 frames at the begining though.. I'm currently only renderering 15 but it really serves the purpose. And yes, there is a bio-wet chip.. but mines busted.. it got smashed when I was attempting fusion with the aid of harmonics and now I'm living in that old abandoned church on the Hudson. You know the one. Luckbat - Great point about the eyecontact and the "chop" jesture. It's there now. Starwarsguy - For more info on the mouth model take a look elsewhere in this thread. It's hand splined with the help of an initial lathe then alot of extruding. Check out ARM for some tuts.. I'm sure there are a couple on there. Thanks for all your comments! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckbat Posted August 31, 2004 Share Posted August 31, 2004 Wow. I can't tell exactly what you did to the 'chop' gesture, but it looks awesome. Explosive! And I really love the asymmetrical fist-pumps on "...try your patience..." Excellent work; I hope you're proud. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBarrett Posted August 31, 2004 Share Posted August 31, 2004 Nice work on the update, Sam! Definitely lookin' better. On a specific note, I like what you've done so far with the head tilt toward the end, but I'm not sure my original comment was too clear. It looks like he goes into a quick tilt for some parts, but then comes out of it back into his vertical orientation again. What I meant in my earlier notes is a level of tilting that continues through an entire pose, not just for a small portion of it. The angle you've got on the initial part of "dead right" looks good, but it still needs to be carried through to the end of that phrase for the full impact to set in. Keep at it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parlo Posted August 31, 2004 Author Share Posted August 31, 2004 Another couple of hours spent - QT - sorenson3 - 1.2mb Justin - I gotcha. I think that my addiction to trying to get his head back to a vetical position comes from the video reference - Stewart's head maintains an almost super human perpendicular relationship to the floor. But that's about as useful here as a very un-useful thing. Whoops - Accidently posted the wrong file... The link has been updated now. If you saw it, I apologise... animation like that shouldn't be allowed out in public. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adamP Posted September 1, 2004 Share Posted September 1, 2004 wow, it just keeps gettin better and better. It's almost like you don't know when to stop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobalt Posted September 1, 2004 Share Posted September 1, 2004 Heh. With the new hair, he reminds me a lot of Rik, from The Young Ones. I have yet to attempt any facial rigging, but is there a link to the site that talks about this "new" facial rig you're using? -c* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parlo Posted September 8, 2004 Author Share Posted September 8, 2004 I got another session in this evening and did some more fiddling. I decided to rebuild the transition in the last phrase ("Either I'm...") as I felt it had got somewhat lost. [http://www.sambuntrock.com/guy_like_me9_web.mov]QT - Sorenson3 - 1.2mb[/url] Think it's looking again. There are some things still to tweak as a result of replacing a number of keys, but nothing major. It's almost like you don't know when to stop. .... erm.... er... well.... er..... Really? is there a link to the site that talks about this "new" facial rig you're using? There no complete tutorial out there yet - but the following links will help guide you in the right direction.... A tutorial in the works..... The thread that started it all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBarrett Posted September 8, 2004 Share Posted September 8, 2004 Looking ever-better, Sam. Those legs are looking better, but something still feels odd about them. It might have something to do with their shape, and the fact that he's walking straight at the camera. I see that there's more bend to them as he steps, but it's hard to read that bend. Changing his overall movement vector would probably solve the readability issue, but it might mean a lot of work. It's one of those tough choices...do you fix it, or just learn from it and move on? Tough call. You've just about nailed the lip sync. I really like the attention you've paid to some of the "s" shapes in particular. It sounds like he's almost doing a "sh" sound in words like "stand," and you recreated that very well. It really helps to sell the impression that he's saying the line when you see the same shapes that you hear. (Hear shapes? You betcha... ) I like what you've done with the new approach before "Either I'm...", and the extra snap in some of the moves after that helps. You could probably push the snap even farther, though. Don't be afraid to go too far. A comment I've often heard says that when it feels like it's going too far, it's almost there. I still tend to go a little tame in some of my stuff, and Keith Lango was trying to stretch me out of that safety zone in a recent animation exercise at work, so this has been on my mind recently. The more I think about his overall presentation, the more I think it could use some global tweaking. He's practically dead-center in the frame the entire time, and it doesn't really help sell his inner turmoil. What might work to help sell the subtext of the spoken line is to keep him on either side of center during his opening remarks, and then have him move dead-center for the final line. That would allow the his initial uncertainty to match with a shifting, uncentered screen position, and then match dead-center with his "dead right" ultimatum. Now if I could just think about this stuff earlier rather than point it out when you're nearly done... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parlo Posted September 8, 2004 Author Share Posted September 8, 2004 Justin - Thanks for the crits. I've tried pushing the camera to the right and angling it back round about 30 degrees. It all looks much more dynamic and the walkup at the start far less "flat". There's a bit of cleaning up to do to get the new angle to work (especially for the last phrase), but yep, it's worth it. If it wasn't for that corrupt "Taylor Machine".... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parlo Posted September 9, 2004 Author Share Posted September 9, 2004 I've reworked it for the new angle. Some stuff got "broke" in the transition, but nothing that will be too much of a pain to rebuild. The challenge is to know how much to adjust each pose so that the face is at a clearer angle to the camera. NEW ANGLE - QT - Sorenson3 - 1.2mb Oh, I guess I better model the feet now I suppose..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parlo Posted September 13, 2004 Author Share Posted September 13, 2004 I've had very little time for this over the last week but have now adjusted all the poses/transitions for the new angle. I think it's much better. There is still some tweaking to do, and I've yet to really try and push the snappiness at the end. QT - Sorenson3 - 1.2mb (And yes, he still hasn't got any feet yet!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBarrett Posted September 14, 2004 Share Posted September 14, 2004 Rock on, Sam! It's continuing to look better and better with each revision. Keep at it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parlo Posted September 14, 2004 Author Share Posted September 14, 2004 Thanks Justin... After doing yet more tweaking late into the night last night I treated myself to a final quality render this evening (very basic light set up, nothing special yet). It's pretty much there. I'm very happy with almost all of it. Maybe, just maybe.. I might be just about to finish this. (Don't all faint at once) QT - Sorenson3 - 1.2mb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mouseman Posted December 27, 2004 Share Posted December 27, 2004 I'd say the words "stand" and "either" are both under expressed given the voicing. Other than that, I think it's incredible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dagooos Posted December 27, 2004 Share Posted December 27, 2004 Wow I really like this character. Nice animation too "two thumbs up" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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