Stolen Child WIP

[smudge]

Hey all!

 

Sorry I've been so quite on the board these last several months. Been Busy as all get out. But I'm finally getting off my bum and getting onto my next short, "Stolen Child", and thought I'd create a WIP.

 

Story:

A classic Celtic fairy tale. Fey, one of the fey-folk, convinces a young man to with her to the Fairy-Lands. Done is a psydo-Jim Fitzpatric look, all the characters are going to be done in Hash while the backgrounds are hand draw and colored in Photoshop. 5 minute short.

 

Progress so far:

Storyboards: complete but sketchy (need to re-scan and compile them into a likareel)

Backgrounds: Complete for act 1

Characters: all the designs have been done, but I've only really worked on the Fey model.

Mics. Models: have a long way to go....

 

Current designs;

Old Fey Design

 

Son Design

 

Current Fey Model (new Design)

 

As one can see, I've already had to change Fey's design from what I was originally intending. (=grr!=) I could not get a skirt rig that I was happy with. So I modified the design.

 

I'm also running into another problem. Can anyone tell me why Fey's body is casting a shadow, but her skirt is not? I've checked the model and group attributes (in both the modeling and choreography windows) and they all look correct. I've tried flipping the normals too to no affect. Anyone have an idea?

 

More to come!

[ZachBG]

I'm also running into another problem. Can anyone tell me why Fey's body is casting a shadow, but her skirt is not? I've checked the model and group attributes (in both the modeling and choreography windows) and they all look correct. I've tried flipping the normals too to no affect. Anyone have an idea?

Ha! I can finally answer a question!

 

It's because you're using Z-Buffered shadows. IIRC from another thread, Z-buffered shadows need to hit TWO surfaces before they cast a shadow; since in the real world, everything has thickness, this usually isn't a problem. However, it looks like your cape is only one surface, not two, hence...

 

I found the appropriate link:

http://www.hash.com/forums/index.php?showt...indpost&p=18572

 

Try using raytraced shadows and see if they work.

 

I love the look of your characters. Fay (v2)'s face seems different than the first design, and I like the first version better. I think it's a question of eye proportion... but that's just my opinion.

[smudge]

Yes, Ray-tracing works. Yeah! Thanks (to you and Martin) for the help.

 

However, this will change my rendering flow a bit since ray-tracing doesn't work well with front projection maps(which is how the backgrounds are being handled). I guess I'm gonna have to do a 2(?) image render to get the final. One for the characters w/alpha, one for the shadows embedded into the alpha, and then complile them with the final background in my editing program. Not that big of a deal.

 

I'll post a test render later.

 

Again, Thanks.

[gra4mac]

Hi smudge. This is awsome looking work and I hope you keep us updated on your progress.

[adamjames]

It's looking really good, Smudge.

 

I'm looking forward to seeing more.

[smudge]

Been working really hard here. Since James, my roommate, rebuilt my main work machine, progress on this short is going to be much faster. I think Fay's model is done.

 

The new and improved Fay! With less skirt action!

 

Fay Test Walk

MPEG1, 2.3mb

 

I've also posted the final sprite models (1 & 2).

 

Fay has a variety of 'little helpers' throughout the film. (Why do something when she can sent someone else to do it for her...) The Sprites are two of them. They tend to be her 'good' little helpers.

 

Now it's onto modeling the son.

(*BLARG* This film has too many models.....)

[Ross Smith]

Re: the Fay walk cycle. I love the motion of the hair. It's very convincing.

 

The hands speed up as the cycle rolls from the last frame to first, it looks like. Just needs a little tweaking.

 

I'd like to see the dimensionality of the face. From this perspective, and due to the lighting and toon mode, the facial features appear flat. Can we have a close-up? How about a 360 degree fly-around?

 

Really fabulous character. Please keep us posted.

[smudge]

Can we have a close-up? How about a 360 degree fly-around?

 

Ask, and ye shall receive!

 

Fay Bust Turn Around.

(trying out this file attachment thingy)

BustTurnAround_small_.mpg

[smudge]

And here's the Full body turn around!

FullBodyTurnAround_small_.mpg

[ZachBG]

Unless it's giving away trade secrets I'd love to see a wireframe. I'm trying to figure out what makes a good toon model and this seems like a great Teachable Moment, as they say.

[smudge]

no problem, ZachBG.

 

Here's a bust wireframe of Fay.

[smudge]

...And here's a full body.

 

I've found that for building a toon model you want to use as few splines as possible. I also spent a lot of time carefully moving the CVs and then rendering to make sure the model was as smooth as possible since any irregularity the toon line would pick up.

 

To that same extent, I also made sure there was more distance than I normally would model in between the different surfaces so that the toon line would pick it up properly. The shoulder pieces are an excellent example.

 

Also, I've changed the toon line to a thickness of 1.5 with a toon bias of 60 since I'm trying to imitate an inking style where you'd have a really thick outline, and then a thin interior line (which is being handled in the texture maps).

 

When I render the figure, I'm over-sampling the render to get a sharper toon line. Example: My final move size is 720x480, so I'm rendering the character at 1440x960 then shrinking the frames in Premiere at the time of editing.

 

Hope this helps.

[smudge]

More Progress to report. (Trying to post something every Friday simply to keep my butt in gear...)

 

Been working on the 'Son' model. Had started the model earlier, then let it sit dormant for a long time. This week I was able to finish up his hair, and his leg straps, and model ears (which you can barely see, but if they weren't there, he'd look weird). I still need to model teeth, tounge, and eyelashes. Then it's on to texturing him.

 

I also adjusted Fay's walk cycle a bit as par Ross Smith's suggestion. You're correct Ross, this looks much better.

 

Fay Walk Cycle (new)

MPEG1, 2.4mg

 

And here's the Son so far....

[entity]

GREAT!!!

It's a great walk cycle + your modeling skills defined what you designed! Looks smashing in toon render and wireframe.

If it makes you feel better about how many characters you have to model, I've got to model 14, at my last count... I'd better get back to work! Your almost done creating your characters already?

Love what your doing.. can't wait to see more. Is there a child you have to model, too? Haven't seen too many models of children... That'll be interesting.

[smudge]

Is there a child you have to model, too?

 

No, 'fraid the 'Son' model is a young as this gets. The term 'Child' in the title more refers to 'A Child of Man' than someone under the age of 10.

 

If it makes you feel better about how many characters you have to model, I've got to model 14, at my last count...

 

14? I think I get close, but not quite there. Good luck to you on getting them all put together, entity.

 

I'm more grumpy that I'm modeling at all when I really want to get onto the animation. But since the models aren't gonna build and rig themselves, I should probably quit my grousing and get back to work.

 

Last I check, this was my model list:

 

Fay -- DONE

Son -- In Progress

Father -- Not Started

Mother -- Not Started

Sprite 1 -- DONE

Sprite 2 -- DONE

Will O Wisp -- DONE <--Start Over

Buttery Spirit 1 -- Not Started

Buttery Spirit 2 -- Not Started

Grey Herrin -- Not Started

Highlander Cattle -- Not Started

Highlander Calf -- Not Started

Mouse 1 -- Not Started

Mouse 2 -- Not Started

Trout -- Not Started

Chair -- Not Started

Table -- Not Started

Stine -- Not Started

Dirk -- Not Started

Staff -- Not Started

 

.... I guess that is more than 14, huh?

 

 

*grumble*

[entity]

Oops, you do have a reason to grumble... eek! I only have one character I WORKING on NOW. 13 more to go. Back to the grind. Check out my post in this WIP section under "ENCOURAGED!!!".

[smudge]

Well, I've been kind-of bad this week and didn't get as much done as I would have liked.

 

I did, however, finish off the final modeling touched on the 'Son' (i.e. teeth, eyelashes and the such) and am now on setting the model for texturing. Right now, I've got all his hair and skin templeted and ready for painting. I was hoping to have all of him done today, but I got sidetrack on another project (re-redering an earlier short, 'Yote Tail for posting to the AMFilms site).

 

More next week!

[entity]

You did a lot! Sometimes it gets slow... we get sidetracked... that usually means we need that break! You can always do double work next time round...

[smudge]

Nothing new to post on Stolen Child this week. Did more paperwork stuff for the short instead. Namely, getting the contract finalized for the music and getting the letter off to AP Watt to try and figure out if the poem is truly public domain or not. I originally started the short thinking it was, but I found some stuff recently on the web that seemed to contradict that. So in the name of fairness I sent a letter off to the W.B. Yeats Estate’s agent asking if it was. We'll see how things go from here.

 

Did, however, get the re-render done of the earlier film 'Yote Tail and got it posted on A:M Films. Yeah!

 

So at least I didn't waist the whole week.

[smudge]

Sorry about not posting last week. Ended up showing at an Anime convention (FanimeCon) over the holiday. Back on track now though.

 

Got the Son rigged up and did a test animation with him. Kibbitz from the peanut gallery are very much welcomed.

 

All I have left to do to him is set his face targets and paint his textures, then I can go onto one of the other characters; probably the Mom.

SonSmall.mpg

[adamjames]

Smudge,

 

 

 

You've done some really great work here. Your project looks ambitious but it's obvious from your hard work so far that you can manage it.

 

Well done.

 

 

Adam

[etilia]

Smudge,

 

they all look really great so far!!! ^__^ I especially like the 3D model of Fay. ^^ I'll be waiting to see the rest of them. ^^

 

-Etilia

[KingSalami]

Fay is amazing and the Yote Tale was very nice!

[mediaho]

Looks like you're well on your way to another really nice piece!

[smudge]

Thanks for all the encouragement folks!

 

While I have been working, I've got nothing to post (yet) this week. Tweaked with some of his constraints (mostly the overlapping lags). Still need to fiddle slightly with his skirt constraints. Right now, they seem to be popping as he walks. Not so noticeable in the small render I've got posted here, but really annoying at full screen. Also, been getting the son's painted textures finalized. I'll post him when I get them all done.

 

Also, finally heard back from AP Watt. And what I feared was true.... The poem is Public Domain in the US (region 1(?)) but not in the EU (region 2(?)) (as well as Brazil, Israel and Turkey too). Won't be until 2010. Well that cuts about half the film festivals I could send this too. The up shot of this, thou, is that Ms. Shaughnessy of AP Watt was kind enough to give me the contact info of who currently handles the International Rights for "the Stolen Child". So, off I go to draft another letter.... Ah, the joys of clearance....

[smudge]

The Son's Done! One more model down, a hole bunch to still to go.

 

I think next week I'll start work on the 'Dad' and use the 'Son' as a base to start from.

 

Here's the final image.

 

And here's the test walk I did to make sure he was working correctly.

SonSmall.mpg

[smudge]

Weekly update.

 

Been working on the Father model.

 

He's a bit of a burry fellow. I've got most of the body taken care of at this point, model wise, thanks to using the 'Son' as a starting point. Next week, I'm hoping to work on the face/hair. After that, it's getting the skeleton back into alignment.

[smudge]

Nothing to show this week pre say (except a minor problem that I can use some feedback on). Got distracted by my new DVD burner and sound card. Ended up finishing the sound re-edits on my other short, Something to Remember which should be posted to A:M Films next week (God! It sounds so much better!). Also trying to get a (very) small run of disks together of my two short to sell at San Diego Comic Con International this month in the vain attempt of paying for my hotel room (I hate going to Conventions broke....). If you're at the Con, please come by and Say "Hi". I'll be at my publisher's table (Radio Comix).

 

But -- I have run into a minor glitch with the models, with the rigging to be exact. I'm currently working with a skirt rig on the Son (and Father) that's almost working.

 

The Rig:

A series of single bones parented to the Hip(root) bone. They are Aim At a target bone parented to each leg. There is another set of single bones, again parented to the Hip bone, that are Orient Like the first set of bones and also have a Spherical Limits on them to help mimic gravity as well as prevent collisions. This last set of bones is what the skirt geometry is parented to.

 

The Problem:

I'm getting a Popping from the bones that have the Spherical Limits from where they 'slam' into their min/max then 'pop' out to a very radically different position when the control bone returns into the Spherical movement limits.

 

Does anyone know a way to easy this? Or have a better rigging solution? I'd love to hear them!

[entity]

Try getting rid of the "popping" by diminishing the escape route the bone is using to pop toward the unwanted angle... ie eliminate movement in individual axis... if you make spherical contraints in this fashion:

 

longitude=x, latitude=y;

If it's popping in x then (look at the rotate on the bone as it pops in properties to find out which axis is changing there);

 

contsnt#1:

leave full open movement

long min=-180

long max=180

 

your variables below

lat min=what you want

lat max=what you want

 

I'm sure you don't want roll

roll min=0

roll max=0

 

----------------------------------

constnt#2:

your variables below

long min=what you want

long max=what you want

 

previous values from contsnt#1

lat min= what you want

lat max=what you want

 

Roll remains "0"

roll min=0

roll max=0

------------------------------------

 

it worked for me in certain curcumstances but not all... depends on where the angle of popping is.

 

note: You are just adding a secondary measure for the constraint you already have, except you are allowing movment in the popping axis the first time before constraining the pop-- so you isolate it.

I think I used this and it worked, but I ran in to other problems and just added an additional bone constrained differently.

Pop is usually connected with movements that place the aimed at bone "suddenly" in a place the constrained bone can move to within the constraint... you may choose the constrain that bone instead-- or put another bone there and translate it to the aimed at bone and make it's enforcement change in a pose, depending on what angle it is at... that would be the best thing to do at this time... there are many ways to do this and I'm sure you will get more help soon. Sorry if this doesn't help, but I've been done with rigging and my brain ain't as submerged in the subject.

[entity]

I didn't read your post correctly the first time-- I had the same problem and just used another way-- you may want to use the pose route and pose the position you want it in there, bypassing constraints all together.

[smudge]

Thanks for the reply Entity.

 

Actually I can up with the constraints because I had so many problems with trying to do it via poses. I have found that there is a 5-degree sweet spot that works out. 5-degrees under and I don't get the movement I need. 5-degrees over and it starts hanging and popping. And of course, the 5-degrees varies per each bone... =le sigh=

 

In other work, I've got the 'Father' all modeled now. I also got my other short ‘Ebin & May: Something to Remember’ posted to A:M Films. Boy, it sounds so much better than it did a month ago. I love my new sound card!

 

Next week I will be setting up the Father's texture templates, then a week off(?) for San Diego Comic-Con International. Might try and post just before I leave, but no guarantees. No rest for me!

[smudge]

Ack! Smudge bad! No work of 'Father' all week.

 

Instead I re-hook 'Fay's sholder and upper arm bones beacuse I was geeting a really weird movement out of the elbow. All fixed now.

 

Also did a test rendering of all the film elements together, ie, models, and backgrounds. Dang it's coming togeather nicely. Will have to post the shot later, though. Brain too wrapped up trying to get ready for Comic-Con.

[ZachBG]

Hey, are the "folds" in the clothes painted on, or toon-line generated? Great stuff!

[smudge]

They're part of the texture map.

 

A lot of the line detail work is being handled in the texture and I'm using the toon line to take care of the large overall/silhouette shapes of the model. Since the inking style I'm tying to imitate wants a thin internal line and thick external, this seemed the best way to handle getting the look I wanted.

[smudge]

Wee! I survived San Diego! Actually broke even this year (a first after 10 years). Having dinner with the Hash guys on Thursday was wonderful. I really had a good time. On one of the few moments that I got to break away from the table, got the chance to meet one of my heroes, Bill Plympton. He's a lot younger than I imagined. That Con has gotten too frick'n big....

 

Been working hard on the Father now that I'm back. Got all his texture templates made and modified a few of the some textures (that were appropriate). Now, I'm going through the long tedious process of re-aligning the skeleton rigging. That's going to extend into next week, thou.

 

More next week (as I get my butt back in gear)!

[smudge]

I know this is a little earily for one of my weekly posts but --

 

Okay, discussion time....

 

To upgrade or not to upgrade, that is the question.

 

When I started on the 'Stolen Child' project I made the mental decision not to jump to the next version mid-stream. After all, every time I've tried to upgrade in the middle of a project with *any* program, I usually find that I've hosed myself. So, I told myself that I wasn't going to make that mistake again. Simply to avoid temptation, I've gone out of my way to *not* get v.11 until after I finished the short.

 

But....

 

Going through some of the documentation, they've added some new controls to the Dynamic Constraints (ie Collision) that looks like it would make my life easier and keep from pulling my hair out too much when it comes to hooking up and animating the skirts of the major characters (of which they have a lot).

 

In the past, the problems that usually crop up with upgrades tend to be with;

 

a. Smartskin (which my models have none).

b. Muscle poses on the pose slider (if I upgrade I will have to reset them).

c. Modifying animation done in previous versions (bad gen-locking problems, especially if a new bone has been added anywhere along the chain). <-- Note; playing the animation is fine, I just run into problems if I try to modify it after importing from earlier versions.

 

At this point in the project, I've only completed half of the major character models and have done none of the animations for the short. Any animations completed so far have only been to test the models.

 

Also, I know there was some talk about working on the Toon Renderer in future versions, which, for the most part, I think is a grand thing to do. But to change the Toon Renderer right now for this short would be a *disastrous* thing.

 

Have there been any changes to the Toon Renderer from v.10.5 to v.11?

 

Would the Dynamic Constraints really be worth the headache of trying to upgrade from v.10.5 to v.11 at this time?

 

Can anyone think of any other problems I might encounter upgrading this project from v.10.5 to v.11?

 

Any and all feedback would be really helpful! -- Thanks!

[amarillospider]

Hey Smudge,

 

I'm not paying super close attention to the versions but I do have a suggestion for skirts.

 

I've been playing with a short with a character in a about a knee lenght skirt. Experiments so far seem to indicate this will work.

 

What I did was select all the cp's that are part of the flowey part of the skirt, then I extruded those, and scaled them out, and then hit the delete key. This gave me from every cp of the skirt an anchor point. I then attached all these anchor points to my leg bones and left the actual skirt geometry cp's unnatached. Then I used a cloth wizard on the geometry cp's. It worked okay, I'm sure if I play with it I could get it behaving pretty well.

 

www.dinocarl.com

Dinocarl's the one who came up with this idea.

 

And then Kricket's got a tutorial on lag constraints that I'm thinking I might adapt to get the flick on the bottom of my skirt

 

Kricket's tutorials

 

Hope those ideas help.

 

-Alonso

[smudge]

Thanks for the reply, amarillospider.

 

I worked with cloth some and have found that it creates too realistic motion for what I need. It feels alien to the rest of the action and models since things are so stylized. But I'd love to see a test animation of what you've done. Could you post one, pretty please?

 

As for Kricket's tuts., I've actually been using a variant of them a lot for hair and other danglies (tassels and the such). The biggest difference is that instead of using free-floating translation lag bones, I'm duplicating my original 'Control' chain (which is affecting the model's geometry), renaming it to 'Target' Chain, adding 'Orient like' constraints to the 'Control' Chain targeting the 'Target' Chain, then setting the lag appropriately, offsetting by 2 to 4 frames going down the chain. I'll add spherical constraints as needed to keep the model from intersecting itself. While not perfect, the motion it creates is a nice simple over-lap that isn't overkill.

 

I've got a version of this currently hooked up to the skirts, but with other factors involved (ie, lots of leg movements and very tight spherical constraints) I'm not really happy with it as a skirt option.

 

Any other suggestions? Or answers to my questions about upgrading? I'd love to hear them!

[smudge]

Not much to report this week. Still waiting to hear about my upgrade questions from the peanut gallery.

 

So instead of working on getting the rigging all done, I've been painting texture maps. Got most of the 'Father's' new textures in except for his tunic. Will probably finish that over the weekend. I'll post the final textured model when the Tunic's in.

[smudge]

Tunic's done. Got most of the rigging done on the 'Father' too short of the skirt (which is in and working, but not correctly) and his braids. For the moment I've thrown the 'Son's' walk on him but should probably do one of his own.

 

Next week will be finishing up his rigging, then working his poses for expressions and dialog.

FatherWalk_small_.mpg

[Rodney]

Christina,

I'm a little behind in answering the mail (email and here in the forum)

 

Glad to hear San Diego went so well!

 

While I'd like to say that upgrading won't effect your project it almost always will.

The question becomes whether or not the changes are significant enough to hold you back.

 

Personally, I think you will want to upgrade to v12 the day it becomes available... from what I understand it will be THAT good! I also think that you'll want to start a new project/sequence at that time.

 

You can always use the older version right along with the newer!

It takes more time to isolate any differences but can be done.

 

Concerning v11, the main reason it would appear for you to upgrade would be to get familiar with the newer tools that have come on line.

 

When in doubt an email to support@hash.com might be in order. They would be able to give specifics on render changes (if any).

If there are specific areas of concern perhaps posting them to the main forum with a link to any pics here in your WIP.

 

Just a few words from the peanut gallery!

Rodney

[smudge]

Humm -- Some good things to think about, Rodney. I'll probably implement posting to the main forum & writing Hash Support (got a bug report to do anyway) on Monday, seeing how today's docket is full trying to get a demo reel together & get scans off to me publisher....

 

No rest for the weiry!

[SHADOWMASTER]

Still waiting to hear about my upgrade questions from the peanut gallery.

I'm a peanut!

 

Oh, anyway, I don't think I ever got around to saying how "Tottaly awsome Fey is!" I've seen a number of toon rendered things, but this is the first 3D model I've seen that actually looks drawn. I think it's the blue lines for the muscles and such... Anywho, keep up the good work.

 

Amarillospider, where were you when I was looking for that stuff??

Ah, well. I guess that's the benifit of reading through other posts, eh?

[smudge]

QUOTE=SHADOWMASTER]I've seen a number of toon rendered things, but this is the first 3D model I've seen that actually looks drawn.

 

Thanks for the complement, SHADOWMASTER. Now you know why I don't want to deal with a modified toon renderer at this point for this project. I know how to get the effect I want, I don't need to spend time to try and re-learn it.

 

Well in weekly progress, I've got 'Father' done. I ended up ripping out the automated skirt rig leaving only enough boning to hand animate it. Will be doing the same for the 'Son' and probably 'Fay' as well. Also, went and animated 'Father' to have his own character walk.

 

Next up, I'm gonna be modeling the dagger since the 'Father' needs to wear it in the first shot. Baron, my fiancée came up with a totally cool design for it. Yeah, Baron!

[smudge]

Oh, and here's the final 'Father'.

 

Grumpy, isn't he?

FatherWalk_small_.mpg

[SHADOWMASTER]

Thanks for the complement, SHADOWMASTER. Now you know why I don't want to deal with a modified toon renderer at this point for this project. I know how to get the effect I want, I don't need to spend time to try and re-learn it.

Oh, yeah, tottaly. Seriously, the first time I saw the first pic, I thought it was drawn. Then I realized it wasn't.

 

Kik-arse dagger, BTW. Go Baron!

 

So, wether I missed it, forgot it, or skiped it altogether, what is this going to be, anyway? Movie? Short? Somethin' else?

Just curious, and lazy.

(Actually I'm not lazy...well, yeah, I am... but I'm also working on a project, so I have an excuse. )

[smudge]

So, wether I missed it, forgot it, or skiped it altogether, what is this going to be, anyway? Movie? Short? Somethin' else?

5 min short. Of course, this is assuming I can survive the modeling/rigging stage of things....

[SHADOWMASTER]

5 min short. Of course, this is assuming I can survive the modeling/rigging stage of things....

I hear 'ya!...

Well, good luck!

Can't wait for the finished product!

[smudge]

Ugh! Dagger done, short of final texture map. Suddenly realized I never hooked up the 'Father's' bangs. Stupid me. Need to do that next week after I recover from Labor Day weekend (currently at small con trying to do the art-sell thing).

 

... Need sleep....

[smudge]

Not much to report this week since I’ve been sucked into php coding hell again. Did get the 'Father's' bangs hooked up, and I went and ripped out all of the 'Son's' skirt rig so that I can hand animate it. =Blarg=. I want to get on to animating.... But I have to eat my beats before I can have my pudding, as it were.

 

Also, for those who haven't seen it yet, the pick I entered for the Hash Image Contest last month (Sci-Fi/Fantasy) was my screen test render to make sure all my elements were working correctly. Was rather pleased how well everything fell into place. Yeah! At lest I know everything's gonna be happy with each other shy of the motion.

 

Fay screen test

 

Still need to texture the dagger, then it's onto the 'Mother'.

 

The 'Mother' might take me a while since I'm debating on whether to redesign her or not. Her original clothes are not going to work as things stand right now, so I'm thinking about going with a tunic/dress that's a little more period. But I'm still debating on whether I should change her more drastically than her clothes. After all, the last thing I want is to have people confuse her and 'Fay'. That would be disastrous.

 

Slowly going forward. . . .