Painting AM models in Zbrush

[KenH]

Here's a test model given out by the Zbrush people. This image has also been posted on a zbrush forum and doesn't fair too badly against the other software efforts.

You can see a little banding at the edges of some patches and it's only an 8 bit displacement map. As far as I know, AM can't use 16 bit Tiff files yet.

I have to say I'm impressed not only with displacements but with AM's importing of them.

[Sharky]

Hi JohnArtbox!

 

Can You help me in Zbrush?

How can I start to paint my model in Zbrush?

 

I like your Barbarian model, it's cool!!!

 

I'm waiting your answer!

 

Thanks, Sharky!

[JohnArtbox]

Sharky, to texture an AM model in Zbrush you need to apply a single decal to all the patches.

Then export the model as an AVA file to convert five point patches to four.

Export the model as an obj file and allow it to copy the decal to the dame directory as the obj file.

import the obj file into zbrush.

Watch the zbrush help zscripts on texturemaster or projection master. They pretty much explain everything.

Zbrush can only import and export in the full version, the demo is limited in this regard.

[Sharky]

Hi JohnArtbox!

 

First I thank your answer! I will try your instructions in the next days.

If I don't go away in this small tutorial,then Can I help me again and in-depth?

 

Thanks before, Sharky!

[zued]

Hi.. I have a question regarding the obj-exporter..

 

When exporting 1 or 16 polygons per patch the object looks fine.

But choosing 4 or Variable polygons per patch it breaks the object.

 

Have you seen this, or is it only on my computer?

 

Thanks

 

*/ note.. this only appears in v10.5 and v11. ?

[JohnArtbox]

Sharky:...ask and depending on my work level I'll answer, generally I get around to answering everything....eventually

Zued: nope it's not just your computer. This is the case with the exporter. Variable exports additional polygons where there are greater angular changes in the mesh, but the resulting mesh is not uniform and is not usable in another program. Im not really sure why 4 doesn't work, but again it's an option I avoid. 1(after the ava export and import fix) and 16 are the options I use.

[OdinsEye2k]

Just a little speculation I had this morning, and I was hoping you could answer it, John.

 

The one thing everyone bags on in AM is modeling (although a lot of the animating power would be lost if splines left the picture in my opinion) and possibly even texturing. But, looking at Z-brush's capabilities, it looks like it's still possible to bypass the 'big boys' of 3d entirely.

 

Something like:

 

Z-brush -> AM -> 3d party renderer

 

How easy have you found the Z-brush -> AM link so far, and have you experimented with Zbrush's built-in modeler yet?

[MitchVFX]

Hi,

 

I have a model that was created with a poly modeler and is currently being detailed in Zbrush2. I was looking at possibly using AM (I have 8.5 that I haven't used much--but was thinking of upgrading) to do the animation since Lightwave doesn't support displacements well. My question is: is it possible to import/convert the obj model into AM with the UV mapping in tact to then apply the displacement map?

 

Thanks,

 

Mitch

[KenH]

You just import the displacment map as a decal. Right click on it and call change it's type to a displacment and then apply it. The uv mapping is then automatically applied to the image so it "knows" where to go on the model.

Again, the polys need to be all quads if it's to stand any chance of animating properly.

[chadtheartist]

I'm currently trying to figure out how to get the .obj plugin working. I've downloaded the 96kb .hxt file, and it's in the .hxt folder, but it won't show up in any of the import, plugin menus.

 

I'm using 9.5 right now, so maybe that's the problem. If that's the case, does anyone happen to have the 9.5 version of the .obj import/export plugin?

 

I've got some ideas for testing, and if it works out OK, then I'm going to be hitting AM hard the next few weeks!

 

Thanks

[KenH]

I thought it was a "hie" folder and not "hxt" in v9? But in any case it needs a different obj plugin. I don't have it handy, but it might turn up somewhere.

 

Here's another test. Man this is fun....

 

Model creator:

Copyright © 2004 Sami Sorjonen

Sami Sorjonen

s-s@sci.fi

www.cgmill.com

[chadtheartist]

Yup, it's a hxt folder. I even tried making a hie folder and placing the two hie obj files in the main AM folder to see if that would work too. Neither one worked.

 

I'm pretty impressed with your results so far! I'm wanting to test a head I'm working on right now, and I might upload the .obj and the displacement map if you want to check it out.

 

Here is the model, in Zbrush. I'm sure it will look just as good, or close to it in AM if your tests are an indication of what I should expect.

 

 

I've made a .zip file of the model, displacement, and .mtl file, but I can't upload it tonight. I'll upload it tomorrow if you want to have a crack at it Ken. I'd appreciate it if you could see how it looks in AM for me.

 

Hopefully I'll get version 11 in the mail soon. I'm pumped!

[JohnArtbox]

Chad

Below is the 9.5 obj hxt file, it imported the zbrush landscape in the next post with no problems

OBJ.hxt

[chadtheartist]

OK, I downloaded the hxt file (thanks by the way, ), put it in the hxt folder, and I'm stumped.

 

Still no import/export function anywhere. I checked in the import, export, plugin, wizard, and anywhere else I could find the import option.

 

I even checked to make sure that the hxt folder was highlighted in the options screen, of which it is.

 

Is there something else I should do to get it to work?

[JohnArtbox]

Some Answers

Bjorn:

 

The problem in your workflow is the 3rd party renderer. At the moment I just can't see it happening unless Hash take on the development. With SkyCast and the other illumination options available I'm happy with the Hash renderer, it doesn't have all the options and speed of the standalone renderers, but it's as good or better than many of the renderers built into other aps. One major issue with the render is that a lot of people use the truly awful default lighting setup.

I've had some problems with imported zbrush models losing their UV's on saving, but I've sent it through to Steve and I'm sure Hash will have a fix soon. ZBrush models have been coming in cleanly with some issues at joints. Personally I think I'll use zb models as is, for bg objects, props and previsualisation because you can produce them so quickly.

With character's I'd do hand cleanup on the joints and then look at redoing the UV's by hand and transfering the textures...I still think it'll cut down the time to get a character from A-B, and I love the ZB sculpting techniques. Displacement, colour and bump maps are still ZB's major selling point for me, with a base AM mesh.

Last night I built trees and leaves in AM for import into ZBrush.

I've used Zbrush's modellor a bit. I like the sculptural feel and the built in UV's, making it the fastest way to get a textured model that I can think of .The barbarian model was built from ZSpheres which is a pretty cool way to quickly build masses. Plus it's great little paint program for BG's.

The short answer is that ZBrush to AM is easy but not perfect.

 

MitchVFX: Ken's answered it. Just make sure you use Group UV's, and as I've said in the above post I've hit some UV problems, although that was on a ZBrush plane primitive, not a poly model.

 

Chad: Link is above...nice head

drop plugin into hxt folder

close and restart am.

create a new model.

right click in the model window and select plugins/import/object model(*.obj).

 

The render's a quickly sculpted landscape imported from ZBrush and rendered in AM without alteration

[chadtheartist]

Yes, I downloaded that obj.hxt file. And I checked all of the plugin/import functions, and it's still not showing up. I followed this Model/New/Right Click/Plugins/Import/ PLY, 3DS, AV2 is the only formats that are there. I checked the hxt folder, and the obj.hxt file is still there.

 

I'm going to try reinstalling AM. Maybe that will work.

 

And your background looks pretty cool. I think I've seen your work in the pixolator forum. I didn't know it was AM and Z2 that you were using. Thanks for sharing that!

[KenH]

Chad that's a stumper. I don't know why it's not showing up. Hopefully a clean install will fix it.

 

John: Hash say the uv problem will be fixed in 11a!

[chadtheartist]

I tried the reinstall, still a no go on the plugin. That's ok though, I'll wait for V11 whenever it gets here!

 

I wonder if Hash will tweak the displacements in AM to make use of 16bit tiffs in the near future? From what I've seen from your posts Ken, is some of the detail is still lost in the displacement. Although I think a clever workaround might be to use a the displacement map as a bump map too, but I don't know if you can do both in AM.

 

I'm hoping to get this all figured out soon.

 

Oh, another question. Is it possible to use 9.5 models in 11? If so, I'm thinking about redoing my machineflesh entry entirely in AM, that way I won't have to worry about import/export stuff. Especially if I can figure out how to do the UV's in AM. By the sample I've seen on Hash's feature list, it doesn't look like the UV's are in a 0 to 1 ratio. Is there a way to make them 0 to 1 in AM?

 

I forgot to bring (to work) my .zip file with the displacement in it to test out, but I did have a version of the head saved on my website. If you'd like to Ken, I'd appreciate it if you could see if this head converts over to AM half-way decent. It's all quads. If you want to play around in Z2 and make a displacement for the head to see how it works too, that would be great!

 

Right Click And Save .obj

[KenH]

Yes some of the wrinkles don't show up in 8 bit. You can use a bumpmap and displacement together, but I think they both have to be 8 bit images too. I'm not sure how that would show up the details better.

 

I haven't a clue what you mean by 0 to 1 though

 

Your model comes in just fine. I would say that there are too many rings around the mouth area. You only need about 3-4 otherwise it will animate badly in AM.

[JohnArtbox]

Ken: Cool isn't it...Dan Teidy let me know about the fix

Chad: The displacement loss off detail is in the lack of subdivision of patches more than in the loss of shade.

You can generate a bump map by getting zbrush to calculate the difference in heights between the maximum AM displacement (2 subdivisions in ZBrush) and the subdivision used for detail in zbrush(eg 5 or 6).

In ZB Generate the displacement map from the low re model as per the manual.

move two subdivisions higher then generate displacement again and it will give you the smaller detail to use as a bump map. AM will use both.

There are no problems with loading 9.5 models into 11 that I know of.

UV's are simple and easy to use in AM. I'm pretty sure Will (Zandoria) has a tutorial on the UV editor.

[JohnArtbox]

Ken and I were obviously typing at the same time

Chad here's a render

[chadtheartist]

That's awesome!

 

I'm impressed that it actually imported the mouth wireframes too. I remember that splines are "more" smooth with less wireframes, and I'm pretty impressed with how smooth this came out.

 

Thank you to both Ken and John! You guys rock!

 

WIth the displacement settings, and following the Zandoria tut for UV's, I think I'll be working in AM in no time!

 

Is the .mdl that you guys made from this headgear.obj compatible with 9.5? If so, would one of you care to upload it so I can check it out firsthand? I'd greatly appreciate it.

 

Thanks for all the help! I got a feeling I'm going to be participating a lot more in this forum.

[KenH]

Here's a 5 min displacement test. I'm not sure what the breakage is at the nose and other areas, but I think it's to do with the texture seams not being repaired in z2. Was it made in the old zbrush?

 

I'll email you the model and texture.

 

PS Actually the texture is abit big to send...what addy do you want the model at?

Edited May 4, 2004 by KenH

[JohnArtbox]

Chad: file attached

Ken and Chad: displacement seems to work best on meshes with spline continuity, the areas at the mouth which break under displacement have non standard AM spline layouts and need to be altered by hand. You need to alter points which have more than two splines travelling though them using hooks and 5pps.

[chadtheartist]

I believe it might be an issue with Maya. I had to import the model into Maya, and I'm sure the UV's were messed up in there. Maya has a tendency to renumber the vertices, and the UV's, so there might be an issue with it. But I think the only thing that had UV's was the face. The head clamps probably don't have any at all. What I'm probably going to do from now on is use AM to do the UV's. That way I'll know it works.

 

But I'm still pretty happy with how it's turned out though. Thanks for taking the time to play around with this, hopefully it will help you out too!

[chadtheartist]

PS Actually the texture is abit big to send...what addy do you want the model at?

You can send it too chadtheartist@mac.com

 

Thanks.

[chadtheartist]

OK, I got my copy of 10.5 in the mail yesterday. I was able to get the .obj import working perfectly, and now I'm having problems with the bump/displacements.

 

I'm working on the Alien model to test out displacements, you can find the model with the displacement map here:

 

http://homepage.mac.com/chadtheartist/.Public/Alien.zip

 

The displacement works fine in Z2, but when I go to do the same thing in AM, all I get is a strange bumpy mess all over the mesh.

 

Does anyone have any insight as to how to get the displacement, or bump map to work right in AM?

 

Thanks in advance!

[KenH]

Here's what I got. I don't know if it's how it should look....The first is the model imported with v10 and the second is done with v11. They look the same but I thought it was v11 causing the "breaking" at the joints. I haven't had that in other models. You can see around that area that the mesh is disjointed so it must be what John said is the problem......hmmm...when you exported from Z2, did you select "groups" in the export options? As a rule, I select merge and deselect groups.

 

PS also I assume you converted the tiff to an 8 bit bmp. It asks for a bmp for the texture for me.

[chadtheartist]

Yup, you're right. I exported it in groups. Stupid! Well it's an easy fix in Z2, but I'm still lost as far as the bump/displacement settings in AM. I also had a texture applied to this guy, which is what the bmp file is. The tiff image is 16 bit, so that may need to be converted for AM.

 

How did you set the tif image as the bump/displacement on the model? That's what I can't get right.

[KenH]

You only sent the displacement tiff file....no bmps.

I converted the tiff into a bmp in Photoshop. Then when AM asks for the bmp(it thinks it's a texture not displacement map) I chose this. In AM I changed the image type to displacement.

 

But you can do that with the texture. Then to apply the displacement map, do this:

 

Import the bmp

drag it onto the model as a decal

right click and change it's type to displacement

Apply the image

The displacement type will automatically apply the correct UVs.

 

I should add this is the way to do it in v11. I hope you downloaded it. Also, at the moment there is a problem with preserving the uvs in objs after you save the project. It will be fixed next release.

[chadtheartist]

The bmp was a color map, not the displacement map. There wasn't a need to send the bmp with the color for this because it would have made the download twice the size it is now. What I was doing was opening, in AM, the tif file after I imported the .obj. I guess that was the problem. Maybe if I convert it to a bmp map it will import fine?

 

Thanks for the help!

 

PS: I downloaded V11 this morning. I'll load it up tonight when I get home. I don't have a PC here at work to use it. Only a Mac.

[souleat]

Thank you for the solving of the problem with obj and zbrush!!

normally i m a zbrusher but knowing this i will give A:M a TRY ! !!

 

http://www.zbrush.de - come and look

[KenH]

Just a tip for those wanting to use a Zsphere model in AM:

 

Before you paint a texture/displacements or model any details, make sure that the base mesh looks good in AM. So export it with merge set and groups unset. As you can see in the image, there is discontinuity(easily spotted in a rendering) on the left leg and the right leg has been rebuilt by deleting the offending cp and re-splining.

Once this is done on your whole model, it can be exported as an obj and the detailing finished in Z2.

[JackMcRip]

I'm very interested to buy ZBrush2 !!!

I have to to modeling in ZBrush, its famouse!

I have try to import ZBRush-Objects from the ZBrush-Website into A:M.

It's looking very good.

Some Splines will be change into hooks or fivepointpatches by hand.

 

I will make a model complete in Zbrush and want to import it in A:M to animate with Weightmover & TSM. Have someone try to animate a splinewire that was generated by Zbrush?

 

What is with the Decals on the model?

When i change some splines after import, the decals will lost at this Patches?!

How can i apply new and exactly to looking smooth with other patches?

 

What is your amount about ZBrush and A:M ?

Would I give ZBrush a try? A try for $489 ???

 

Is it good to use a lowpolygon exported ZBrush-Object to make animation in A:M and change later into a better higher polygon exported ZBrush-Object. Mean the lowpolygon import as .obj in A:M as Splines and high-polygon, too!

[JohnArtbox]

Ok latest in the line of experiments, I've rebuilt my basic humanoid with as few five point patches as possible. None on the face, and eight around the neck(top & bottom) and two for each arm and leg.

I've then deformed it in ZBrush without displacing any of the 5point patches,and this is what it looks like. In theory it's the result I can get out of AM's displacement map on a simple model.

Jack in theory you could use the uv editor to realign the edited patches, I imagine it would get fiddly. We need a way to maintain spatial UV while editing the patches but it's not possible at the moment. The best way I've found is to redo the uvs in am with a seperate decal(while still maintaining your imported UV's) and render from the imported to the new. You can then update the corrected patches.

Or you can import UV's from AM and it's hassle free

[KenH]

Nice and organic looking! What's the hole in his left shoulder caused by?

[JohnArtbox]

I hadn't bothered joining it to the body yet. I'm doing that now . Hopefully I'll have the am render tomorrow.

[Sharky]

Hi JohnArtbox!

 

It's fantastic,I like it!

 

How can you make this really form?

Can you write a tutorial?

What kind of tools use you this model in Zbrush!

 

Ps.: I can import my model in zbrush without hole,

after you offered for me, that I flip the normals on once patches!

Thanks!

 

And How can I work away in Zbrush?

 

Please help me!

 

Thanks before, Sharky!

[JackMcRip]

@John:

is it right, that i only would apply a new decal to a modell that imported as .obj from ZBrush and then change the image?

Is uvs-texturcoordinates evertime the same at one model, or can it be different?

There is no problem to apply later the zbrush-textures exactly at the model after imported in a:m.

 

In Zbrush2 you can change the resolution of a mesh when you are modeling. Same as in a:m with UP and DOWN keys.

Can you affect the export resolution of the model when you export in .obj?

[KenH]

In Zbrush2 you can change the resolution of a mesh when you are modeling. Same as in a:m with UP and DOWN keys.

Can you affect the export resolution of the model when you export in .obj?

 

Page up and Page down doesn't effect the mesh. It only effects the display quality of the mesh. It's purely visual.

But you can increase the mesh resolution in Z2. Decreasing isn't possible.

[JackMcRip]

Hi,

Thanks for all your infos about ZBrush ...

 

I have buy ZBrush2 now. (€470)

I hope it works so good with A:M like sounds in this thread

*pray*

 

I have very low time to test it.

But first 2Hours test show me it's is another world to model in ZBrush.

When Obj-Export better supports to 5PointPatches and Hooks, and A:M supports better Displacementmaps on all Patches, i don't need to model the basic-object in ZBrush.

 

When i export A:M-Object to .AVA all hooks are connect to the next cp.

Are there no problems after export in obj decaling in ZBrush and import in A:M ???

I want to use the decals from ZBrush at the model with hooks and 5PoinPatches again. A:M need this Patches to have smooth wire!

 

Define a basic modeling with a pen is great :-)

Please let me know more about A:M and Zbrush teamwork ...

Have new pics, that show results?

[JackMcRip]

This is my first import-test from zbrush.

The model is modeling with szpheres in zbrush.

Then i divide by 2, make adaptive Skin and export.

 

After import with obj-import-Plugin (thanks for this wonderfull plugin),

On every point where add a sphere there was 4 cp-connecting-points that have more than 4 splines.

This point can't look smooth ...

 

I want to optimise the mesh and export to zbrush to texturing and bumpmapping, and displacement-mapping.

 

This pic show the import model in A:M

 

1. what is the best way to make smooth this point?

2. when i import a:m ask to modelname.bmp, can i use this later complete for decaling? I have make a image with photoshop and give it as decal. Is this ok?

[KenH]

Good first test. To get rid of those join points, you need to export from Zbrush with "Merge" on and "Group" off (in export options). That will give you the smoothest transition.

 

If after that it's still not looking good then you'll have to go in and edit the patches by hand to make them smooth. Once it looks good in AM then you're ready to export to Z2.

 

For a texture....you can do it in Z2 or photoshop. If it's photoshop, make sure you choose the correct mapping method ie planar/spherical etc. Once you export from Z2 with the "texture" button clicked in the export options, then the obj will look for a texture named after itself. This texture can be modified or totally replaced in a paint program and it will still work....provided it's the same image fromat.

[robcat2075]

I'm surprised it even works that well!

 

One way to respline it:

[JackMcRip]

@KenH: its the same mesh after export. Groups=Off and Merge=ON

 

@Robcat: It's looking good, but I must find a way to make only 4point-patches. this is the only way to make fine displacements and keep in the texture at all patches.

[KenH]

Bernd: The best way to stop this happening is to move the zspheres so that they are not as close to each other. Maybe making them smaller might do the trick also.

[KenH]

Here's another test. I had to up the patch number and there is a little artifacting but other than that it turned out great! It took about 10 minutes on multipass 4...I'd love to test it with the web based skylight, but I haven't worked out how to use it yet!

(Model courtesy of Zbrush creator)

[JackMcRip]

Thanks for hints. Do you have modeling and texturing a new character in ZBrush an import in A:M?

The displacement looks nice, too.

Are there 5Point-Patches on the sword? Looks little sandy rough. Not so smooth like the zbrush-sword. Is it the problem of jpeg or the problem of rendering displacement?

 

This is the result of C4D:

[Rodney]

Nice sword Ken! Most impressive.

Is there any way you could post a group of wireframe and decal pics?

That would be most helpful in understanding the separate components of this very interesting process.

 

Oh, and I hope you figure out JKS Skylight too! I think the would look even better lighted with it!

 

Bravo!

[Rodney]

Bernd,

 

You slipped a post in on me while I was typing mine.

Nice detail!