CP weighting

[Simon Edmondson]

I'm working with the 2008 rig in V17 ( although also use V18 ) and I'm having real trouble getting the cp weighting done correctly.

Whatever I seem to do goes wrong after a short period, leading to all sorts of distortions and bulges.

Is there a table anywhere which suggests suitable settings ?

 

or,

Can I pay someone to do a figure for me so I can use that as template to setup the other figures ?

Its driving me crackers.

simon

Grandson Shirted 01.mdl

 

 

[Rodney]

I'm probably not someone who can give advice on CP weighting so I won't be of much use to you there.

I do note that several meshes that would otherwise appear to be separate are all part of the same mesh.

This can cause problems.

 

For instance, it appears that you've connected the head to the body and yet part of the neck continues down into the chest.

At a guess I say you have two better choices:

 

1) Leave both the head and body meshes as separate

2) Connect them in unibody fashion where splines don't attach in inappropriate places.

 

Over all I'd say you can get away with considerably less density of splines/patches.

The connecting of splines/patches at random places creates a lot of internal patches which should be avoided.

In addition to the head/neck I see similar connectivity at the hair/head.

Added: I see a tendency to create the bottom side of meshes that will not be seen as well. The example here would be the hair where there appears to be a underside of the hair... although that may actually be the top of the head. That entire layer of splines can be removed because it will never be seen.

 

 

Adjusting all of this will ease the burden of CP weightings and their interaction thereafter.

Grandson Shirted 01.mdl

[Simon Edmondson]

Rodney

Thank you for your reply.

As you have spotted modeling is not an area I'm comfortable with. The parts that are giving me the most trouble are the backside at the top of the legs, the top of the thighs at the front and the shoulders/arms areas.

 

I did wonder if I could get away with less splines in the hips/leg areas?

I shall have a look.

The 2008 rig is a complex thing, I wonder if I should try something simpler?

regards

simon

[Rodney]

These don't appear to be in your area of concern but I'll offer them for future consideration.

 

Attached is an image that shows where internal prevail and it's primarily where things have been added to other shapes.

 

After removing these internal patches your model almost looks the same (externally).

Obviously some patches were removed that would need to be repaired.

 

The 2008 rig is a complex thing, I wonder if I should try something simpler?

 

I have a feeling some folks will say 'yes'.

Just keep in mind that with less complexity often comes less functionality.

It's hard to say until you test out the possibilities.

It certainly wouldn't hurt to test a few different rigs. It's sure to be worth it for the learning experience.

That mostly depends on how much time you have to devote to testing.

 

The simplest rigs are probably the 2001 and Lite Rigs.

TSM Rig may not be an option for you.

I would consider the Squetch Rig to be at least as complex as 2008 rig.

[Rodney]

The parts that are giving me the most trouble are the backside at the top of the legs, the top of the thighs at the front and the shoulders/arms areas.

 

It doesn't surprise me to hear that shoulders/arms are troublesome and it does make sense that flexibility at the top of the legs might be an issue.

Those are areas that might require some additional smartskin to maintain proper shapes.

 

Are you using any smartskinning?

[Simon Edmondson]

Rodney

Thank you. No, I've not used smartskinning. I was advised in the past that cp weighting was the better way to go.

Perhaps I should try that instead, or as well ?

Regards

simon

[Shelton]

Simon you might try the Saucy rig. But still shoulders and hip area are trouble some. David Simmons squetch rig is incredible as well.

[robcat2075]

This would be a good case to bring to Live Answer Time.

[Rodney]

This would be a good case to bring to Live Answer Time.

 

Probably take more than one session though as the setup, breakdown/analysis and solution would surely take longer than one hour.

Perhaps where we know the subject matter in advance we can have an extended session.

[Simon Edmondson]

Rodney, `Steve, Robert

Thanks for your help. Much appreciated.

Are the 2001 and or Lite rigs available on the extras DVD or where can I get them ?

I bought the TSM when it was first introduced and still have it on backup somewhere but, until I get a PC ( possibly courtesy of my brothers at Easter ) its not currently an option. I did have a dual boot Macbookpro I was given by a friend but, in a fit of madness i seem to have lost the window option and, to add insult to injury, the flash drive I'd backed it up to has gone missing as well.

Hey ho.

 

The reason for the mesh 'mess' was that ( to save time) I had re used the bodies, with adaptations, and put new heads and hands on them. I think less rush and more care for the future.

regards

simon

[Rodney]

All known rigs gravitate toward the Featured Rigs forum:

 

https://www.hash.com/forums/index.php?showforum=231

 

There are some (particularly one) notable exceptions such as the ubiquitous 2001 rig.

We should probably have a subforum for that as it's still the default most will encounter as they work through TaoA:M.

 

The 2001 rig comes standard with A:M and there is even a bare rig (without mesh) for use with the tutorial from TaoA:M installed with every copy of A:M.

After all this time the 2001 rig is (still) the standard by which other rigs are measured.

 

Just crack open your library, navigate to Models tab and look for the Skeletal Rigs folder.

The 2001 rig is the only one there - perhaps another oversight but I suppose that it's useful to only have one rig there to choose from for beginners.

 

See the Featured Rigs forum for more about the Lite rig.

[robcat2075]

I don't think you need to change rigs because that won't change the need to weight CPs or use smartskin appropriately.

 

Come to Live Answer Time! i think it would be useful to talk about this interactively.

[Simon Edmondson]

Rodney, Rober

Thank you for your help.

I shall try to get to Live answer time on Saturday. I think CST is the same as Illinois time (?) which is 6 hours behind us in the UK.

I'll have a bash at installing the 2001 rig in the meantime, while a long render goes through.

regards

simon

[Simon Edmondson]

I had a look on the Live answer thread but can't seem to see how it works,

It mentions something called Google hangout but someone else mentions Skype?

Could somebody clarify the setup for me please.

regards

simon

[robcat2075]

I had a look on the Live answer thread but can't seem to see how it works,

It mentions something called Google hangout but someone else mentions Skype?

Could somebody clarify the setup for me please.

regards

simon

 

A URL will be posted just before the start time. You click on it to go to the Hangout. Your browser may ask you to allow a plugin.

 

Have your mic plugged in before hand.

[Simon Edmondson]

Thank you Robert.

I shall try to be there.

I've installed the Lite rig on a version of he model and definitely need some help with the weighting and or smart skin

regards

simon

[Simon Edmondson]

Just noticed something which might have a baring on the problems ?

 

I was preparing for the live answer session when I looked at the model in bones mode

 

Notice the position of the thigh fan geometry bones

 

 

I had a look at other models and, this is essentially the same model, but with a different version of the mesh attached.

 

Notice the position of the same bones

 

I don't know how this has happened but might it be the cause of the trouble ? I tried to follow the rig install instructions as closely as possible in both models,

 

I've checked various iterations of the same grandson model and thet all seem to have the same fan orientation.

will check again.

simon

[Simon Edmondson]

I've reinstalled the 2008 rig in a cleaned up version of the model, using V15

It was a lot more straightforward than previously.
Just about to test it using the chor. Will post the result tomorrow.

Thank you to all who helped. Much appreciated.

simon

[Simon Edmondson]

Still wrestling with cp weighting, although on a different model.

I looked up smartskin on the forum and there was a reference to a William Sutton description of the technique he uses.

Looked that up but couldn't seem to locate it.

Could someone kindly direct me to it so I can try it out?

Thank you

simon

 

PS

I found this but, it came up with a "404 page not found error"

Does anyone know where it is now ?

 

Smart Skin Tech Talk Animation:Master hash inc training

[Simon Edmondson]

On a further question

As mentioned above, I'm trying to get more familiar with SmartSkin. Its not something I've used before really, as the 2008 rig install pdf ( and other advice ) suggests that CP weighting will largely get what is needed. However that is the source of current frustration.

 

I've read the section in the David Paries book and TOAM but, when working with SmartSkin, what is the process you would employ ?

 

Do you make a different SS for each bone in different positions so you can try and get it up to work in an action

or,

is it better to have an action to test it with and go through that to find where it is needed,

or,

something altogether>

 

Bit at sea here.

simon

[robcat2075]

On a further question

As mentioned above, I'm trying to get more familiar with SmartSkin. Its not something I've used before really, as the 2008 rig install pdf ( and other advice ) suggests that CP weighting will largely get what is needed. However that is the source of current frustration.

 

I've read the section in the David Paries book and TOAM but, when working with SmartSkin, what is the process you would employ ?

 

Do you make a different SS for each bone in different positions so you can try and get it up to work in an action

or,

is it better to have an action to test it with and go through that to find where it is needed,

or,

something altogether>

 

Bit at sea here.

simon

 

 

I hope you'll bring this to Live Answer Time. i think it would be easier to do this interactively.

 

I haven't read the Paries or TAoA:M recently so i'm not sure on the distinctions between the two.

[Rodney]

I couldn't see if you'd found Will Sutton's reference/video so just in case:

 

 

xhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkBmYlRwP_8&feature=youtu.be

 

Make sure you set aside some quality time as he goes step by step through the demonstration.

[Simon Edmondson]

Robert, Rodney

Thank you for your replies and Help.

I couldn't get to live answer last week as I had to go to Cambridge on Saturday and didn't get home on time. I'll try to get my setup ready for this weekend.

regards

simon

 

Just about to watch the William Sutton film

[Simon Edmondson]

Rodney

Is there a link to a written explanation that William mentions in his forum post ?

I don't wish to sound ungrateful but, the sound quality on the video is rather distracting. Its as if it was recorded next to a water display. William's voice is clear enough but the sound of water all the while lulls the concentration.

regards

simon

[Rodney]

Is there a link to a written explanation that William mentions in his forum post ?

 

I'm sure there is but I don't know where that would be.

Perhaps you can PM Will and he can clarify.

 

 

Added: This underscores some of the issues with 'documentation'.

No matter the effort, quality or content... it is never quite what we need.

[Simon Edmondson]

With thanks to Robert Mark and Rodney at the weekend. I redid the weighing.

Managed to get rid of the problems from last week, only to replace them with others ( sigh).

Think I'm going to have to try to get to grips with smartskin now.

This was a version of the fie worked on.

The difference in render styles is intentional ( too much art theory when doing the course for the past two years !!! )

 

regards

simon

 

S5 B.mov

[zandoriastudios]

Sorry the audio quality was distracting... for elbows/knees, it is simpler because there is only one axis of rotation. for hips & shoulders, it is a good idea to have a fan-bone (or series of them) that orients like the main bone, but doesn't store the roll--that keeps the twist away from the joint when the bone rolls. First do the Weighting then in a test action, pose the joints and see where the problems are at the extremes.

 

To get a smooth smartskin, you want to try and set keys at the extremes and let the default pose be your neutral in-between. eg.: raise the arm-- set a key, lower the arm--set a key. the smartskin will use the default position as a key when blending. Use the rotate manipulator and wiggle it on the extremes to make sure there is data in ALL of the rotation channels.

In the extreme position, you will likewise make a smartskin for the rolled position(s) at the extremes. Depending on your fan-bones (or if you didn't use them), you may need an extra roll smartskin keyframe in-between the extremes and neurtral positions. (eg. extreme at +90º and -90º roll, and another keyframe at +45º and -45º): This is so you can counteract the "pinching" of the CPs when the bone rolls. as before, make sure that there is data in all of the channels....

 

You should only need 1 smartskin/bone. Keep clearing your action and then repose the joint. where you see a problem, right click and edit Smartskin1 to add the keyframe... be sure to untoggle the relationship Icon when you are done tweaking it....

[Simon Edmondson]

William

Thank you very much for your reply, and for your very helpful tutorial, I haven't really tried Smartskin yet as I found the weighting rather frustrating. I don't know if its an error on my part but the weighting seems to change slightly when i move the model between different versions of the software. It is easier to do the weighting in V15 because, the values inserted are retained when you insert another. V17, seems to average them automatically each time one is changed. That gets very wearing after a time.

regards

simon

[Shelton]

Simon

 

Weighting can be tedious, but you can achieve great results. But in the end unless you are supper rigger like David, Mark, or Mack you need fan or cog bones and probably will smart skin.

I like the ability of weighting in 17 and 18. Choose two bones and click in the area where the bones are listed when weighting. Then select a third bone and click the list area. Now select the main bone and the value and select lock and click in the list area. Now select the next bone enter the value and then lock and click in tje list area. Third bone will now have the remainder of 100% but you will have two values set. The key is not to apply until you are finished.

[Simon Edmondson]

Steve

Thank you very much for the reply and help. I shall try that tomorrow.

Tedious is not an understatement.

regards

simon

 

I did get so wound up by it that I went and indulged in some displacement activity last night.

This was the result

Sneezing Daffs.mov