Happy Families

[robcat2075]

Didn't go as expected ( hoped ! ) but, this is the drawn version of Grandma arriving for the party on her Trial bike

 

Any critical feedback very welcome

 

S7.mov

 

 

I rather like the hand-held camera effect. It appears as if the cameraman is surprised and has trouble catching up.

[Simon Edmondson]

With a thank you to Robert for his help with shadows.

This is Grandma's depature ( pt 1 ).

Hope to get the next bit done perhaps later today.

May need to go and shout a bit first as its been driving me slightly crackers getting this far due to a number of problems using Photoshop.

This is far from perfect but I will come back to it later if the opportunity arises.

Once again, any critical feedback very welcome indeed.

simon

 

Terrace Street.mov

 

 

 

Ps

Not sure if I've inadvertedly reset something but, working in V17,

Can't seem to get the alpha channel working in TGA renders.

It works with PNG but just comes out black with tga ?

[NancyGormezano]

Using tga format and alpha channel will allow showing varying degrees of transparency (I think you can do same in png probably?) Rendering tga in A:M will look black coming out of A:M, but when you bring it into PS (or some other editor), and look at the alpha channel under channels, you will see black, white, grey imagery.

 

It's working in A:M in ver 17. I think you probably are not understanding how alpha channel works?

 

1st image is coming out A:M, 2nd is the resultant tga brought into PS

[Simon Edmondson]

Nancy

Thank you for your reply.

The problem I was having with the tga files was that, yes the alpha channel appeared black in photoshop. But , when I tried to composite another imageinto the space where the alpha should be, it stayed black and would not show the transparency.Went back and tried to clear it in photoshop but without success. I reverted to png's and that cleared the problem ( unintended pun ).

regards

simon

[NancyGormezano]

If png works for you - great !

 

But for your education about using tgas and alpha channels - in PS and/or other editing programs.

 

In order to use the alpha channel generated by A:M, in for eg PHOTOSHOP, you must create a new layer with the same contents as the background (duplicate background), hide the background then

 

1) select the alpha channel and then on the new layer

2) make the alpha channel a mask for the new layer, to eliminate the background (black). You will see "clear" pixels

 

then you can create new layers, below the masked layer and you can have any other background color or image show thru.

 

Will work just like a png. Except the masked layer will not have deleted any information from the original - the background (in this case black) with still be there, just not be shown.

 

A:M is not having a problem in ver 17. That is how it is supposed to work.

[Simon Edmondson]

Nancy

Thank you very much.

My apologies. You did explain this to me about three years ago but it clearly didn't stick as it should. I hope it will now !

regards

simon

[Simon Edmondson]

Take seven of the departure.

This has been driving me slightly crackers for the past few days as I wrestled with Photoshop. I suspect the problem was between my ears but, the problems arose from shifts of scale and positioning but the working process was too complicated as well.

The KISS principle applies ( or should).

Keep It Simple Simon

 

Scene Three.mov

[Simon Edmondson]

Two takes on the same scene

First with a digital version of the tipsy neighbour, lusting after the grandson doing the garden

 

HF S Six 000.mov

 

Second with the ink drawn version of the nieghbour

HF S Six Drawn.mov

 

Critical feedback gratefully recieved

By way of ( unintended ) comic relief

This is one that went wrong

HF S06MC.mov

 

Its supposed to be his T shirt tied around his waist !

simon

[Simon Edmondson]

The animators steadycam effect
Unintended shot courtesy of checking preceedure.

 

I was animating the scene where Grandma waves to Jack ( grandson ) and he runs to say hello. Had a lot of trouble with the running so checked using a camera constrained to the same path.

Thought it looked better than the intended shot.

There is more to get feedback on but having trouble getting it all co ordinated.

simon

HF S7 C2.mov

[robcat2075]

Yes, paths for cameras simplify a lot of moving camera problems.

[Simon Edmondson]

It was not until I thought it completed that, I found it was missing 10 frames of drawing for Grandma. Hope to add those tonight.

Any critical feedback very welcome.

 

HF S7 C3.mov

 

Does the running figure look male or female ?

Does it look like its wearing a shirt or vest ?

Does the run look OK or is it odd in places?

simon

 

[robcat2075]

Does the running figure look male or female ? Ambiguous, to me.

 

Does it look like its wearing a shirt or vest ? It looks tight, i guess it's a shirt since there's no front opening.

 

 

Does the run look OK or is it odd in places? In real life, runs tend to have a smoother up and down than walks

[Simon Edmondson]

Robert

Thank you once again for your feedback. Much appreciated

I'll wait and see if anyone else responds before saying anything.

regards

simon

[Rodney]

Does the running figure look male or female ?

Also ambiguous. At first I thought male. Then I thought perhaps female. Then I thought male.

I could walk down the reasons for each of these triggers but... not sure that matters.

The softness of the character certainly suggests femaie.

I lean toward thinking this is a young male or athletic female who isn't into girly appearances as there aren't too many specific things that suggest female.

A simple one to suggest female would be to add a pony tail.

Does it look like its wearing a shirt or vest ?

Definely doesn't suggest vest to me.

It looks to be a fairly tight shirt and very likely a specific runners brand (of which I know not what the brand might be) because of the distinctive imprint on the shoulders/arms.

Does the run look OK or is it odd in places?

I agree that some additional display of weight (or countering of the same) could enhance the run.

It's quite a good run actually.

The only thing I can suggest here is to think of the squash down upon each landing of a foot and the stretch as that leg lifts and releases.

I'll add something that probably doesn't need to be said.

At about frame 90 just after the character blinks it would be ideal to have the character smile as recognition of who is there waiting to be hugged settles in.

Anticipation is such an important aspect that this is also where I'd consider playing with the weight of the run.

In other words, if the runner was running at a steady pace now they might speed up... launching slightly higher... in an effort to get there just a little bit faster.

Then you'd get a sense of steadily running in (as if this is a routine run), speeding up upon recognition of a loved one and slowing down in anticipation of the embrace (suggesting he/she doesn't want to injure their loved one by slamming into them with the full force they are capable of at their faster pace). The sense I get is that this is someone who runs regularly and just happens to be returning at this moment in time. There should be a sense of change... surprise... pleasure... recognition that happiness is just a few more steps away.

Keep on keeping on Simon.

I really like what I'm seeing here.

[Simon Edmondson]

Rodney

Thank you for your feedback. Much appreciated.

I'll post a picture of the model later in colour rather than monochrome as I think thats masking the view slightly.

 

On a related question. Is Jim Talbot still a regular visitor to the forum I'd like to ask him a question about his Sir Nigel and Lady G models ?

 

regards

simon

[Rodney]

On a related question. Is Jim Talbot still a regular visitor to the forum I'd like to ask him a question about his Sir Nigel and Lady G models ?

 

 

You can probably track him down as he's still a commercial artist but no, he hasn't frequented this forum for several years.

As far as questions related to those models there may be others knowledgeable enough to answer questions related to them.

[Simon Edmondson]

Rodney

Thank you.

I sent an email to the link on the file and am awaiting his reply.

The process I'm using is to animate the model in AM, render it as lines, print that out and use it as a guide to draw the inks, scan those, then composit into the render. A bit involved ( !) but, simpler than the initial process.

I wanted to ask Jim if it was OK to adapt and use the Sir Nigel and Lady G models in that way for two of the characters. The texture maps are removed and the geometry adapted with the addition of glasses for exanmple. The faces and hands would be drawn but the bodies cg. It seemed like a good idea to ask him before ploughing on and possibly causing upset.

 

In the timescale left it was unlikely I would be able to make the models, certainly not to that standard. My rigging is awfuly bad and improves only very slowly, I spent two days last week wrestling with CP weights to remove creases.

regards

simon

[Rodney]

The process I'm using is to animate the model in AM, render it as lines, print that out and use it as a guide to draw the inks, scan those, then composit into the render. A bit involved ( !) but, simpler than the initial process.

I wanted to ask Jim if it was OK to adapt and use the Sir Nigel and Lady G models in that way for two of the characters. The texture maps are removed and the geometry adapted with the addition of glasses for exanmple. The faces and hands would be drawn but the bodies cg. It seemed like a good idea to ask him before ploughing on and possibly causing upset.

 

That is very considerate.

I hope Jim feel feels appreciated and it never hurts to remind folks just how much we do appreciate them and how much we enjoy the fruits of their labor.

[Simon Edmondson]

Updated.

Missing Ten frames added, some parts retouched.

Any Better?

HF S7 C3.mov

 

 

The colour version, as threatened

[Simon Edmondson]

This is the blocking, awaiting drawings on the figure drinking wine.

Her crooked wrist won't show in the drawings( hope not anyway )
Any critical feedback welcome.

simon

HF S7D.mov

[robcat2075]

The arm raising to the mouth is an example of isolated motion... one body part moving while something it is attached to remains motionless. In this case the arm is moving while the torso is frozen and that will always be unnatural looking. If the torso and head moved slightly to meet the cup while it is traveling that would help loosen it up.

 

When the torso is pulling the arm up, the arm is also pulling the torso toward it (slightly). Action and reaction is always happening when we move.

 

Also there is no anticipation to the arm raising movement.

[Simon Edmondson]

Robert

Thank you for your feedback. Much appreciated.

Her Torso does move ( honest ) but ithere is no anticipation in the first move of the hand with the wine glass. I tried to loosen it up with secondary movement of the other arm. Clearly not enough. Will adjust later today.

 

By way of light relief

This was a process test of an idea for the next shot,
which went amusingly wrong .
the eyes have it !!!

 

HF S7 F.mov

 

The foreground figure are going to walk forward out of shot but thought it best to test the process first.

regards

simon

[Simon Edmondson]

Scene 7 B
Grandma and Grandson exchange greetings

HF S7 B.mov

[Simon Edmondson]

Two tests for the same scene.

Rendered in AM but composited in After Effects

Any preferencesasto which version or any other critical feedback very welcome

Should add, these are 720 versions of 1080 files

 

HF S7 Fb.mov

 

HF S7 F.mov

[NancyGormezano]

Any preferencesasto which version or any other critical feedback very welcome

 

I prefer version F where background is more obvious.

 

But in either version, I find the flickering of the character on the right very distracting. I don't understand why one character is hand drawn and the other isn't. Is there a reason?

 

Perhaps both characters should be hand drawn and flickering so attention of viewer isn't diverted.

The choppiness of the animation is an issue also.

 

Semi-realistic CG rendering and animation of humans is less forgiving than doing a stylized version of human. We viewers require less perfection of the animation style when the characters are stylized. We will accept the choppy and flickering easier.

[Simon Edmondson]

Nancy

Thank you for your feedback. Much appreciated.

 

I don't want to get too pompous or pretentious in my explanation ( I had to do a presentation about it the other day which did err towards that ).

The reason for the different style is to emphasise the generational differences between the characters. The one on screen right is the grandma character and screen left is her grandson. I was trying to show a personality and background difference through the style of representation.

 

It wasn't intended to flicker quite so much. What I wanted was a non digital character playing against digital. The figure in the window is the middle generation and she is a mix of cg and physical media. I take what you say about the choppyness of the animation. Unfortunately thats a consequence of lack of practice and a shortage of time. I've just spent 90 mins trying to get them to walk and they look like they arrived via the embalmers. Very rusty.

regards

simon

[Simon Edmondson]

Grandma and Grandson ( Jack ) head indoors, the last frame should not be there !!!
Does contain vulgar gesture towards the neighbour across the strret who was lusting after Jack. ( earlier post )

 

Will post other scenes in next few days.

Critical feedback very welcome

simon

HF S7G.mov

[Simon Edmondson]

This is Scene 08A before the drawingsgo on top.

simon

HF S8A.mov

[Rodney]

At a guess I'd say... inverted normals?

[Simon Edmondson]

Rodney

Do you mean the "blobbies" on the line renders in the glitches thread?

It was done using the modified, Jim Talbot model of Sir Nigel.

The stange thing about them was how they seemed to change place and number on different frames.

regards

simon

[Rodney]

Rodney

Do you mean the "blobbies" on the line renders in the glitches thread?

 

Yes. Sorry.... very odd. I thought I was posting there.

[Simon Edmondson]

Rodney

No apology needed. I'm grateful for your help.

 

Here is an update of the scene but with the drawn parts added.

Hoping to do the next sections as freeze frames with WB type 'smears' inbetween

regards

simon

Sequence 1.mov

[Simon Edmondson]

With profound regrets I can't get the work finished in time so, I'm having to compromise on what gets handed in.

I kept hitting problems with shifts of scale and placement of images within scenes. That meant that every drawn figure had to be cut out and pasted into a render frame by frame and then adjusted each time to fit. Some frames were taking up to 40 mins to do.

I will revisit it to try and get it finished to the right standard but I do need a break first. six months of nearly 80 hour weeks has taken a toll.

 

Anyway.

 

This is a test of a clip for the opening of the compromise. FCP seems to have cut the bottom off some files and added parts to others (such bliss ) so I will revisit those.

 

Any critical feedback with reference to sequencing or timing would be very gratefully received.

Thank you

simon

Test clip.mov

[Rodney]

Fun stuff! You've put a lot of work into this.

 

I kept hitting problems with shifts of scale and placement of images within scenes. That meant that every drawn figure had to be cut out and pasted into a render frame by frame and then adjusted each time to fit. Some frames were taking up to 40 mins to do.

 

 

Ouch. That'd definitely put you behind schedule.

[robcat2075]

 

This is a test of a clip for the opening of the compromise. FCP seems to have cut the bottom off some files and added parts to others (such bliss ) so I will revisit those.

 

 

 

That seems like a long opening. How long is the whole show?

[Simon Edmondson]

Rodney, Robert

Thank you for your feedback. Much appreciated.

It is a bit long for an opening but, its more to show the preparatory work really. Bad choice of words on my part.

I've had to redo it because the music I used is in copywrite which was a bit of a pain.

While working on the final section I made thisyesterday.

Its only really a test. I need to get some rest before finishing the whole thing.

regards

simon

 

HF S15 A.mov

 

 

[Simon Edmondson]

This is a line test towards a reworking of Happy Families. Hope to get it completed to the right standard this time. The figures will be hand drawn in TVpaint and composited over the AM render of the scene.

It might take a while to get the drawings done.

simon

 

Sequence 1.mov

[Simon Edmondson]

Some render tests for the new version. The original was in monochrome but, thinking of going for colour with this one and varying the style of render for the different generations . I have a hand drawn version of yje grand parents in progress but its taking quite a long time.

Any feedback greatly appreciated.

simon

 

Standard.mov

Standard setting in Toon

 

Fall Off Test.mov

With Fall off

 

Toon.mov

Toon setting

 

 

Test 003.mov

Test 004.mov

Test 005.mov

 

 

[Simon Edmondson]

There are details that need adjusting with the cp weighting and the animation is not finished but, these are the two visual styles I was thinking of using for the grand parents in the project.

The scene will be rendered non toon but the characters done in different stylings.

Should add that the armchairs will be non toon in the final. These were a mistake on my part

 

Apologies for the large file sizes I couldn't get them smaller without losing the quality

B Scene 002B.mov

uses Flat rendered figures with a tonal overlay

then composited over the scene.

 

C Uses a toon render with Ambient occlusion and a narrow tonal range on the render

Scene 002C.mov

My personal preference is for C but I would be interested to hear any feedback you may have as to your preferences and why ?

Thank you for your time

simon

[Simon Edmondson]

Starting to get the process refined ( wish I'd thought of this 10 months ago)

Apologies once again for large file size.

Any critical feedback very welcome.

 

 

On a different subject. where has AM films gone to ?

I was looking for the Japanese one, done with toon render, all the work of one person, in the style of japanese woodblock print ?

 

simon

 

Departure Toon 264.mov

[Simon Edmondson]

Test towards Grandma in motion. She's on the way to a party to celebrate her 50th wedding anniversary.

Quite like the idea not 100% with this version ( there are 8 others not as good ), working on others.

simon

NHF S 06H.mov

 

 

NHF S 06K.mov

 

[robcat2075]

I like her bank into the last turn in the "departure" clip, you should try to get that into the first turn.

 

I think the Depth of field is too severe in the second clip.

 

I think AM Films had a hacking problem and had to be taken offline. I don't know if Jason has gotten back on that.

[Simon Edmondson]

Robert

Thank you for your feedback. Much appreciated

Something I hadn't noticed, until working at 1000% magnification in TVP, was that the wheels of the bike go through the pavement at turns 1 & 2. The figure is so small in the frame at that point, I'm going to modify the pavement later and will adjust the banked turn then too.

 

Do you know the japanese fim I mean in AM films ? I wondered if there was a link to it anywhere else?

regards

simon

[Simon Edmondson]

Tests for next part of scene six

This is a screen grab of a QT file, its close to what I'd like but, the rendered individual frames don't come out that way ( yet )

Will post the Mov files tomorrow.

simon

[robcat2075]

Japanese woodblock prints? I don't recall that!

 

 

This is a screen grab of a QT file, its close to what I'd like but, the rendered individual frames don't come out that way ( yet )

 

 

What aspect of it do you mean?

[Simon Edmondson]

Japanese woodblock prints? I don't recall that!

 

 

 

This is a screen grab of a QT file, its close to what I'd like but, the rendered individual frames don't come out that way ( yet )

 

 

What aspect of it do you mean?

Robert

Thank You for your reply.

The bit I liked in the screen grab was the expanding ripple behind the figure which, I'm guessing, comes from QT interpolating between two separate frames. When I tried to render the separate frames the result was not as dramatic. The first go was done with 9 render passes per frame. I've redone it, with 16 passes and it gives a more fluid result but, not quite as dramatic. I'll stick with the 16 I think.

 

The woodblock print Style may be my memory playing tricks. It was set in a Japanese city , done ( I think) with a toon render and the style of the buildings were the sort from the Ukiyo-eh period, Hokusai, Hiroshige, Utamaro, but the story was something else again. I don't recall the narrative very well ( if at all ) but I do remember being very impressed by the visuals and the fact that it was all the work of one person. Although I may have got that all wrong. I know it got a lot of justified attention and acclaim at the time.

regards

simon

 

 

[Simon Edmondson]

NHF S06B.cho

S6B set.mdl

 

Robert

Thank you for your kind offer to look at the problem.

 

The problem occurs when the backdrop on the S6B set. mdl is hidden,

leaving just the verge and road surface,

and the layer is visible behind it.

 

If I render it like that, the section on the left side of the layer "shimmers", by moving slightly in each frame.

That happens whether a single render pass or a multiple render pass is used.

It only seems to affect that part of the layer, the rest of it is stable.

 

I've tried rendering it as single frames with no motion blur but, when compiled into a mov the glitch remains.

Using either toon or non toon settings.

S06 Layer.mov

regards

simon

[robcat2075]

I'm testing it. I do get some jitter when the Layer is visible. I notice it is much more when i render at 30fps than your original 25 fps

[robcat2075]

Simon, my initial theory is that this is because a Layer is really one giant patch rather than several patches that you have modeled as the alternate background.

 

Because there is some slight rotation in the camera in the first second the renderer maybe is caught around some decision point about where to place the pixels of the bitmap in each frame.

 

If I select the first key frame of the camera, >Interpolation Method>Hold that will force the camera position until the next keyframe to be absolutely motionless and the jitter goes away for me.

[Simon Edmondson]

Robert

Thank you for your help. Much appreciated.

I tried the hold, with mixed results.

 

This is a version using 5 render passes.

Theres a pop at the very beginning but only a short one,

NHF S06B.mov

 

I then tried the same chor but with multi pass and motion blur turned off.

No twitching.

NHF S06B2.mov

I will try a render without multi pass thrn composite the bike and rider in afterwards and see what happens?

regards

simon

 

update

Just tried a full size 1080 and the problem remains. off to try a different option