"Nightcallers" Kickstarter funding

[Gerry]

As I may have mentioned, I've been thinking about ways to fund and produce "The Nightcallers" via Kickstarter. And while I've got what seems like a good plan in my head, I'm not sure it's doable in the real world. The funding is actually the easy part. What I don't want to do is get it funded, then find I've got an unworkable production scheme.

 

I want to tell one big story, told in manageable webisodes. I'm writing an outline for a five-act screenplay and thinking it could be done in ten five-minute episodes to be premiered on YouTube, for what would then be a 50-minute film all told. But I think I would have to have all ten episodes in the can before I release them because I don't want there to be a six-month/one-year wait between episodes. In round numbers I would shoot for having them all done within two years once I have funding in place.

 

But these are all made-up numbers. I have no way to judge if the plan or numbers are realistic, as well as whether or how I can move it beyond YouTube. I need some feedback from people who have a little experience in these areas, or any opinions at all, really! I need to think about things like voice talent, sound, music, budget, file management, modeling, rigging, post, etc. Areas where I have some inkling but no real experience, other than the animation elements.

[robcat2075]

What will the Kickstarter Funding fund?

[Gerry]

Hiring modelers, sound, music, voice, post, and paying myself as well. I'm sure there are other costs that I don't know enough about yet. I want to be able to pay people real money, maybe not scale, but not just ask them to work for free.

[robcat2075]

Have you made a budget?

[largento]

Are you wanting to quit your job while you're doing it?

[Gerry]

Robert: haven't made a budget because the scope isn't clear to me, and without a handle on workload, how many people involved, *how* to budget for music and other areas where I would want others to take over, it's a cart-before-the-horse-before-the-cart situation. Like I said, I'm only thinking out loud here because how to start isn't clear to me. Neither is how to finish!

 

Mark: quitting my job is tempting but not something I'm considering. The freedom I currently have at the office to work on personal projects is not something I take for granted, though managing other people in a larger project (long-distance and online, granted) could impact that. However if the funding were sufficient I would try to work out some kind of "leave of absence" at the office. I was self-employed for 25 years so I know intimately the ups and downs of freedom vs. no regular paycheck.

 

EDIT: I think once I have my story outline finished I would start making a list of models/sets needed. That would be my initial starting point.

[largento]

Yeah, I think having a clear budget is a good starting place.

 

Secondly, I'd make sure you look for hidden costs and the like. I don't think I did enough of that with mine and even though I made well over my goal, things ended up costing much more than I was expecting when things like sales tax and shipping entered into the fray.

 

That's a big concern with Kickstarter, too. What are you going to offer in terms of rewards and make sure you can afford to mail them. A DVD might be an obvious reward. You're going to have to get those made somehow. Little costs become big costs when the quantities go up.

 

What kind of schedule would the production be on? Assuming DVDs might be a reward, you need to be able to offer an estimate of when the backers can expect to get their rewards.

 

Kickstarter says that the average donation is $25. That can give you a ballpark idea of how many backers you'd need to get for whatever you set your goal at.

[Gerry]

Kickstarter says that the average donation is $25. That can give you a ballpark idea of how many backers you'd need to get for whatever you set your goal at.

Actually it says the average is $71 but the most common is $25.

 

Rewards is something I need to think about too. I'd like to do something a little different, but what that would be, who knows.

[largento]

My average was $20.78. :-)

 

Rewards are a big part of what your average will be. I think there are people looking to help, but they are also looking for cool stuff they couldn't ordinarily get.

 

Your average will depend on how you do your rewards, too. Setting the DVD as a reward at $15, lowered my average to about $20. If I'd held off to the $25 mark, I could have presumably increased my average and maybe finally tally, but it also may have kept a big chunk of the $15 from giving. I was okay with giving the DVD at $15, though and was perfectly happy with how it turned out.

 

You've got to figure that with an average of $71, you are offering something pretty enticing at the large amounts. If most of your people are giving $25, you've got to have people also giving $500, $1,000, etc.

[Gerry]

Yep, that bears a lot of thought in terms of developing, producing and distributing, even though it's not directly connected to the video production budget or planning.

[largento]

One thing that seems to go over big is original art. If there are some pieces that you are willing to let go of, you could offer those at high amounts.

 

Also, it doesn't have to be directly related to the project. You could offer up some Sister Mary Dracula stuff as well.

[Gerry]

Then the thought is, if my goal is to do one big movie, why make episodes, especially if my intent is to get them all in the can before I release them? Hmmm.

 

EDIT: Didn't see you last post, Mark. Good points. I'm perfectly happy to get rid of give away some of my original art. Heck, I'd even draw some new stuff! Long time ago I heard a story about Milt Caniff having limited edition b&w prints of some of his art, then he'd hand color and sign them. Most folks were happy to consider them an original.

[mouseman]

Regarding the average donation on Kickstarter, remember that probably relatively few projects are animation, and the average is probably kicked up by larger projects.

[Gerry]

I spent some time yesterday examining some of the animation projects at KS and the ways they're being implemented have some serious flaws imo. There are also relatively few animation projects at all though that's neither here nor there. I think it's an indication of how tough bankrolling an animation project is from the point of view of making a workable budget where everyone gets reasonable recompense, if not a living wage.

 

I'm thinking of doing shorter episodes, mainly because 5 minutes on the interwebs is a pretty long time. Maybe 3-4 minute segments, for a total of 20 to tell the whole story. Then when ten are done and in the can and I have a better sense of a realistic production sked, I start releasing them like one a month, giving me a ten-month window to make progress on completing the last 10. In my imagination it all goes like clockwork!

 

EDIT: Also worth noting is that there are seventeen films at Sundance this year that were financed on KS. Some of them had minuscule budgets, but still.

[largento]

I can't say this with certainty, but I believe larger projects also look at ways outside of Kickstarter to get Kickstarter backers. I've read updates where projects have had fund-raising drives and parties to get people to donate. These would have to be organized in such a way that some one else is donating the money, because you are forbidden to donate any money to your own project. If you do, they'll cancel it right away.

 

In the watching of what was going on there, I saw projects short by tens of thousands suddenly get funded in the last few days. This really makes me think that an urgent call was put out and some people came up with some serious cash at the end.

 

I also think there's a definite type of art that Kickstarter wants to promote. They want it be Indie and Hip. I was kind of disappointed that my project wasn't featured as a staff pick when there were other projects that seemed to be of less quality that were. I soon realized that mine was probably viewed by the staff as being more commercial than artsy. You may encounter the same thing, Gerry.

[robcat2075]

Someone else asked me what i thought of Kickstarting an animation project and my general sense was that there is so much free animation out there already that it would seem difficult to convince people to finance one in particular.

 

Also, animation is generally viewed as "fun" by the public. They are probably as inclined to donate to an animation project as they are inclined to donate to someone's vacation. Someone with a recognizable "name" like a Victor Navone might have enough fanboys to succeed.

 

I think maybe Mark's Kickstarter worked well because he had identified a specific "unfun" material item that needed funding and his actual $ goal was low too.

 

50 minutes of animation sounds like a gi-normous amount of animation. Forum member Kevin Detwiler's "Adventures with Boomer" DVD project runs about 30 minutes (some of that is live action) and completely consumed his time for two years or more, i think.

 

Well, that's me being negative again...

[Gerry]

Well I've been making a mental list of people I know with some deep pockets, as well as old schoolmates, family, etc. It's not a certainty by any means, but I wouldn't depend on KS alone.

 

As for the too-commercial factor, only one way to find out!

[Gerry]

Robert - yes, those are all serious considerations. There is in fact one current KS project that has some "name" voice talent, and the creators have Hollywood credits, lots of big-name endorsements, etc., and their fundraising is way behind, with four days to go. I'm waiting to see if an "angel" comes through for them at the 11th hour, but reading and watching their pitch video I feel like they made some serious tactical mistakes in how they're going about it. that's the sort of thing I'm trying to learn from.

[Gerry]

Just a P.S. to my above comment about the KS animation project with all the big names. This comment was left yesterday:

 

"This is a comment for all backers to help this project!

Another way to generate hits (and potential backers) might be to leave a comment on youtube video(s) that gets a lot of hits, like one of freddiew's videos. And then all of us need to upvote that comment so that it will appear under the video and people will be interested, though it might feel a bit like spamming... If anyone places a comment anywhere, let the others know so that we may upvote it!

 

Only 5 days left but we might still be able to do this!!"

 

 

To which I can only add, yikes.

[largento]

Commercial or not, Gerry, mine did get funded and so could yours ...I'm just saying you can't depend on them to promote it for you.

 

To Robert's points, I think it did help for me to be able to point to something with a pricetag and say, I want a little bit of money for this specific thing, but I feel, at least from the emails and comments I've gotten, that there was genuine interest in the project itself, too. I also (by design) had the luxury of my project being something "familiar" as well as new.

 

I'd say those two things (clear goals and a compelling project) are the keys. Those impulse backers are going to do it because they say, "Hey, that looks neat! I want that!"

 

Another thing to consider (and one that I didn't) is that you may raise much more money than you ask for. The real key to making that work seems to be by upping the ante reward-wise to stimulate people to keep giving passed the goal. That's what this guy did and boy, did it work out for him.

 

This is unrelated to your project, Gerry, but since we're talking about various Kickstarter projects, when I think of bad ones, this is the one I think of:

 

Without naming names, there was a project that I watched through the process that I thought was going about it the wrong way. The project wasn't very appealing and seemed to be done in Poser and yet, he was asking for a very large sum of money ($100K) to fund it. His rewards were high-priced and seemed off-putting. For large sums of money, he would read your script for your movie and tell you what was wrong with it. (?) For a very large sum, you could voice a character in their movie (provided you paid to fly out to LA.) Most of all, my impression was that the person doing it wasn't really capable of accomplishing it ...they just wanted the money. Not unexpectedly, the project failed to make even 1% its goal. When it became clear that time had run out and the project had failed, the creator went on the offensive and started blaming it entirely on Kickstarter for not doing enough to promote his project and complaining bitterly that he wasn't allowed to delete the project. He promised to reappear on a rival fund-raising site "with a big name actor attached." I don't think he has yet. :-)

 

Every part of that one seemed smarmy and opportunistic.

 

I think I know the project that you're referring to, and I think you are right about them having the big-name endorsements backfire on them. I think Kickstarter wants to help out the underdog, not the system.

[Gerry]

Thanks Mark! I'm certainly not depending on KS to promote anything. they're a platform, not an agency. As for the project with the big names, I don't think the names and endorsements backfired, just the opposite. I think handled right that can be an asset, but you have to prove you're working at the level of that talent, otherwise it feels like you're getting George Clooney to act in your school play.

 

I was put off by the quality of their video, as well as the trailer they posted. they were trying to be clever but hitting all the wrong notes.

[mouseman]

I'd say those two things (clear goals and a compelling project) are the keys. Those impulse backers are going to do it because they say, "Hey, that looks neat! I want that!"

I think a third thing is critically important. That is, having a track record proving both talent and determination. Mark, you had the track record with Wannabe Pirates, and that was enough for me to throw in my money. It gave me faith in you, and given that the topic (Trek spoof) interested me sufficiently, I was glad to hand over the money. Gerry has a track record with Cicak, and if the vision tempts me I will definitely hand over some money. In short, I have confidence in both of you.

 

I am not (yet) the kind of person that I would give money to. I have one completed project, but it lacks polish and took a loooong time to do.

 

Thanks Mark! I'm certainly not depending on KS to promote anything. they're a platform, not an agency.

You have a good/realistic grasp on how things work! That will definitely be to your advantage, whatever route you choose.

[largento]

I'd say those two things (clear goals and a compelling project) are the keys. Those impulse backers are going to do it because they say, "Hey, that looks neat! I want that!"

I think a third thing is critically important. That is, having a track record proving both talent and determination. Mark, you had the track record with Wannabe Pirates, and that was enough for me to throw in my money. It gave me faith in you, and given that the topic (Trek spoof) interested me sufficiently, I was glad to hand over the money. Gerry has a track record with Cicak, and if the vision tempts me I will definitely hand over some money. In short, I have confidence in both of you.

 

I am not (yet) the kind of person that I would give money to. I have one completed project, but it lacks polish and took a loooong time to do.

 

Thanks Mark! I'm certainly not depending on KS to promote anything. they're a platform, not an agency.

You have a good/realistic grasp on how things work! That will definitely be to your advantage, whatever route you choose.

 

Thanks, Chris, and that's a good point. I think having as much as I had done of Stalled Trek showed people that it was something I could do. There's a flip-side to doing the Kickstarter thing, too. Even though I already had a pretty hard deadline with the Comic Con, knowing that I now had 100+ people who had invested their money in me finishing it on time was a great motivator to get me through that last month of hard work.

 

(Your DVD will be going out in the next couple of days, btw! The postman told me on Monday that it would be better if I came back on Wed & Thurs, as they are slower days. People in line weren't too happy to see my in front of them with my arms full of DVD mailers.) :-)

[Gerry]

Thanks for the vote of confidence, Mouseman. I'm going slow and trying to do everything, if not right, at least smart!

[Gerry]

Not exactly on point, but here's a story about a cartoonist who wanted to raise $6,000 for a book of his stories and raised $77,000. As the story says, it helps to have hordes of fans...

http://dailycartoonist.com/index.php/2012/...in-kickstarter/

[thejobe]

if you need the cash but you set your goal too high and cant reach your mark there is always indiegogo.com they actually let you keep whatever money you do raise even if you dont reach your goal you set

[Gerry]

In working out the storyline, I've discovered that I've got 28 scenes (broken up into five acts) and that each scene could reasonably be done in 2 to 4 minutes. So that's a ballpark idea of the total amount of animation, all told about an hour to an hour and a half. Complete the first ten in say 18 months (seriously, probably not doable), release them one at a time on YouTube, and proceed on the rest of the scenes.

 

A lot of what I learned at the McKee Story Seminar has helped me not only complete the story outline, but to time it out as well. In general, feature movie scenes are about three minutes or less, and rarely longer; A typical feature movie consists of 40 to 60 scenes. So this puts my story in the ballpark of my original parameters.

 

I want this to be like popcorn. Watch one scene, and it's only three minutes but you want to see what happens next, and it's easy to commit to because it's only another three minutes! Also thanks to McKee, I know to make each scene either a cliff-hanger, or a setup to ratchet up the conflict.

 

So structurally, I think the story is sound, and I've got four to six months before I need to start planning a budget and setting up a KS project. For now I'm focusing solely on finishing this first scene.