TheSpleen Posted April 8, 2009 Share Posted April 8, 2009 MJL has given me another song so this forum is not dead as yet. I will work on my splining a bit then start on the new song. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSpleen Posted April 9, 2009 Author Share Posted April 9, 2009 Here is the start of a new character. Not necessarily to be used in my new production but trying to improve my modeling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSpleen Posted April 9, 2009 Author Share Posted April 9, 2009 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frosteternal Posted April 9, 2009 Share Posted April 9, 2009 Seems a bit patch heavy...seriously, I used to make the same mistake - don't just distort a lathe. If you must, start with low res and work up, add splines/patches as needed. You will notice a positive difference! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSpleen Posted April 9, 2009 Author Share Posted April 9, 2009 Seems a bit patch heavy...seriously, I used to make the same mistake - don't just distort a lathe. If you must, start with low res and work up, add splines/patches as needed. You will notice a positive difference! Thanks! I shall try that on next one. Kinda late with this guy. I do agree he is spline heavy LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NancyGormezano Posted April 9, 2009 Share Posted April 9, 2009 Another interesting character - that has...um...Spleeny CHARACTER. I love how you make such interesting characters. BUT your spline layout doesn't do them justice. It's not too late for the next one to do with less creasing & make more animatable. (maybe even not too late for this one?) trying to improve my modeling. start with low res and work up, add splines/patches as needed Jesse gave you great advice. I am a rubbish modeler. So, do not use my models as an example - but use Ken Heslip's or some other modeling master. Just recently, I have distilled for myself what one "ought" to do when laying out splines, to minimize creasing, and for good facial animation (a la "Stop Staring"). The first thing to think about for face splines is the placement of the "holes" (eyes, mouth, ears) and where the 5 point patches will be. Any human face can be layed out this way. Asymmetry can be introduced after 1/2 the face is modeled (and copy, flipped, attached if appropriate). And then - after the basic layout of holes and 5 point patches - do as Jesse says - refine, refine, refine Here's a potential path of how to layout splines - using Pon from Scarecrow of Oz as an example. I did not take the refinement to completion. (I hope you don't mind me posting these images in your topic - if so I will delete it or perhaps someone can move these to its own thread) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSpleen Posted April 9, 2009 Author Share Posted April 9, 2009 I will try this tonight and post it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frosteternal Posted April 9, 2009 Share Posted April 9, 2009 Looking forward to seein' your modeling advance. ( & Nancy - thanks for articulating my advice so clearly!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NancyGormezano Posted April 9, 2009 Share Posted April 9, 2009 I will try this tonight and post it! And I hope you caught my mistakes when I colored in the blue/white (in images 2,4) above - I did this in a hurry. This is one way to think about layout of splines - and one could also use extrusion (following rotoscopes), after analyzing. Or one could start simply, and then use binary subdivision of the splines using the Y key, to maintain spline curvature. Make the 4,5 keys your friend- to restrict movement of cps along the spline, or a cross spline, as well as 1,2,3. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJL Posted April 9, 2009 Share Posted April 9, 2009 Nancy, What in layman terms (for us techno challenged folks) does the y key do. And if you have the time, (seeing as how you aren't posting on the "Pass The Ball" thread) perhaps you could elucidate upon what the 4,5,1,2,& 3 keys do? Eternal gratitude forthcoming. Thanks, Myron Edit: In re-reading your last post, maybe I partially understand 4 & 5. I comprehend "along a spline" but across a spline throws me a little. 1,2 & 3 constrains movement of a CP to x, y, or z axis only, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NancyGormezano Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 Nancy, What in layman terms (for us techno challenged folks) does the y key do. And if you have the time, (seeing as how you aren't posting on the "Pass The Ball" thread) perhaps you could elucidate upon what the 4,5,1,2,& 3 keys do? Eternal gratitude forthcoming. Thanks, Myron Edit: In re-reading your last post, maybe I partially understand 4 & 5. I comprehend "along a spline" but across a spline throws me a little. 1,2 & 3 constrains movement of a CP to x, y, or z axis only, right? Man...You is dealing with one lame, prone to misinformation giving, not using correct terms, and mistake making rubbish modeler here. The "y" key inserts a control point along a selected spline - This is an old command (check out customize/keyboard/insert) that I just realized isn't shown as standard anymore. Try it - create a spline with 2 cps - select the spline with mouse (not the cps) and hit Y. A new cp will appear. I am now not sure that it maintains the curvature precisely. You are correct about 1,2,3. As for 4,5 - If a CP is intersected by 2 splines - then when you select the cp or one of the splines intersecting - note that half of the spline defined by 2 cps will turn green to tell you which spline you have selected. 4 will constrain the cp along the "green" spline and 5 will constrain it along the other or intersecting spline. Now if Rodney were here, he might say something like perhaps you forgot to do "Exercise 11: Modeling a giraffe"? in TAOAM - as that is where the defs on p.136 are hidden...(I had to go look it up) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frosteternal Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 ... The "y" key inserts a control point along a selected spline - This is an old command (check out customize/keyboard/insert) that I just realized isn't shown as standard anymore. Try it - create a spline with 2 cps - select the spline with mouse (not the cps) and hit Y. A new cp will appear. I am now not sure that it maintains the curvature precisely. I use the Y key OBSESSIVELY. It is invaluable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSpleen Posted April 10, 2009 Author Share Posted April 10, 2009 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Forwood Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 You'll have a whole album animated before I have finished one song! So who's making who look bad? Good luck with it all! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSpleen Posted April 10, 2009 Author Share Posted April 10, 2009 any improvement? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSpleen Posted April 10, 2009 Author Share Posted April 10, 2009 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSpleen Posted April 10, 2009 Author Share Posted April 10, 2009 You'll have a whole album animated before I have finished one song! So who's making who look bad? Good luck with it all! I have no where near your skills my friend. I have just always been one to dive right in and figure it will all work out in time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt_stanford Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 Much better! The only suggestion that I would have is that there seems to be a lot of pinching going on around the mouth. Now, don't take this as gospel cos I pretty much suck at modelling, but I've always found that I got a better result by having the splines follow the mouth around in a series of circles rather than coming down the side of the face. Hmm...does that make sense? Lemme show you... ...I hope no-one minds me using the same model as an example??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Forwood Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 That first image looks like he could be related to Mr. Burns. Are we talkin' cowboys again? I know that Myron has some more fun songs of the "wild" west. Have fun! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSpleen Posted April 10, 2009 Author Share Posted April 10, 2009 I see rings around the eyes too. should I maybe start on those then add the head? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSpleen Posted April 10, 2009 Author Share Posted April 10, 2009 None of these are planned for a video. I am trying right now to improve my splining. I know I need the practice so I am trying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt_stanford Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 I see rings around the eyes too. should I maybe start on those then add the head? Whatever gives you the best results really. I don't think there is a definitive answer. For what its worth, I tend to do the nose first, then the eyes then the mouth, but this is probably cos of the cooper exercise in TaoA:M. I'd love to hear what everyone else thinks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSpleen Posted April 10, 2009 Author Share Posted April 10, 2009 I see rings around the eyes too. should I maybe start on those then add the head? Whatever gives you the best results really. I don't think there is a definitive answer. For what its worth, I tend to do the nose first, then the eyes then the mouth, but this is probably cos of the cooper exercise in TaoA:M. I'd love to hear what everyone else thinks. Ya know your right! When cartooning a character I start on the nose first and build the face around that. I guess what works drawing should work here too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frosteternal Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 Start with the "holes" and profile first. I always do the side profile, then the eyes, mouth, nose, in that order. But everything is refined simultaneously 'cause spline curves all play together. =) Concentric around the eyes, mouth; everything else grows from these. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NancyGormezano Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 Ya know your right! When cartooning a character I start on the nose first and build the face around that. I guess what works drawing should work here too! Not necessarily - What you've got going is better - less creasing for sure. The problem is around the nose area in that you carried the splines of the nose to continue around the head. Again that brilliant boy Jesse and his brilliant cousin Matt have given you good advice - there are rings around the eyes and rings around the mouth (as well as rings around the ears, and nose holes) - It does seem to produce smooth faces, that are definitely made for "talking" Again I upload images from the masters - Ken seems to follow this pattern/formula. (AHA! his secret sauce has finally been discovered and is now being manufactured in Cupertino, CA ! - I'll be RICH...RICH...RICH ...bwa ha ha ha...oh but I digress...) Note Brautigan's spline pattern - very close to Pon - rings around eyes, mouth Note how Nimmie is heavier in splines (not needed) - and Ken refined Nimmie to produce Gloria - less splines. The more splines you have - the more likely to have unwanted creases (unless you're a master). The other thing to pay attention to is that splines are used to produce creases/indents when needed,wanted - ie from the nose to mouth area - laugh lines, wrinkles, etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GizmoMkI Posted April 11, 2009 Share Posted April 11, 2009 I swear that early one looks like George W. Bush. Must be the ears. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSpleen Posted April 11, 2009 Author Share Posted April 11, 2009 How about this guy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NancyGormezano Posted April 11, 2009 Share Posted April 11, 2009 Better. The nose looks great. Note how clean it looks as it transitions into the face because you've got a "ring" around it. You could (& probably should) end the hook coming from the nose sooner. Theres no reason to continue it further into the face. Hooks, 3 pt patches, have a tendency to produce anomalies when animating - so its best to hide them in areas that won't matter. Which brings us to the eyes - There's no rings for the eye area. It would help reduce all the pinching. It's hard for me to suggest what to do to correct, as I can't really see the spline layout well enough from the images. So I just drew a general ring lines. You would need to rework it into your spline layout for the nose. The eye area is very important for expression in animating. And it will make your job easier when rigging the face for animating. The other things with the mouth is the hook ending too soon, and the corner of the loop around mouth should probably be raised some. It also looks like your models face center line is not centered at 0 on x axis? Did that give you problems CFA'ing? You did an amazing job on the ears - that's one of the hardest parts to do. (ps - I ain't no expert - so this is kinda ridiculous me giving you advice) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSpleen Posted April 11, 2009 Author Share Posted April 11, 2009 The eyelids I did like that on purpose, I have a plan for them. Thanks about the ears but they came from from the extras cd I adjusted the mouth and fixed a couple things best I could. Yes problems CFAing. Here is a look...................... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NancyGormezano Posted April 11, 2009 Share Posted April 11, 2009 The eyelids I did like that on purpose, I have a plan for them. I adjusted the mouth and fixed a couple things best I could. Yup - looks better - As for the eyelids - you're on your own. Bon Chance! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt_stanford Posted April 11, 2009 Share Posted April 11, 2009 Wow...HUGE improvement!!! Good work Gene! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frosteternal Posted April 11, 2009 Share Posted April 11, 2009 The eyelids I did like that on purpose, I have a plan for them. Thanks about the ears but they came from from the extras cd I adjusted the mouth and fixed a couple things best I could. Yes problems CFAing. I never auto-CFA. I'm a control freak like that. That being said, excellent improvement, especially around the mouth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSpleen Posted April 12, 2009 Author Share Posted April 12, 2009 I have one question that will solve over half my problem.......... Whenever I am modeling I understand spline continuity. But sometimes no matter whAt I do it always pulls from the wrong spline. This is the secret I need to know! How do I make sure I am coming off the spline I want and not a spline going the wrong way and causing creases? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frosteternal Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 I have one question that will solve over half my problem.......... Whenever I am modeling I understand spline continuity. But sometimes no matter whAt I do it always pulls from the wrong spline. This is the secret I need to know! How do I make sure I am coming off the spline I want and not a spline going the wrong way and causing creases? Add a "tail." The point you want to attach to simply tack an extra line on. If it mis-connects, then move the tail off to the side. Now attach the points you want, and delete the tail. If the tail picks the proper spline, then simple run another tail from the other point to the tail tip, and then delete the extra point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSpleen Posted April 12, 2009 Author Share Posted April 12, 2009 thanks Frost, I been trying that but if that is indeed the way then I gotta keep at it. It always seems to choose its own route. I will keep at it. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSpleen Posted April 12, 2009 Author Share Posted April 12, 2009 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NancyGormezano Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 Interesting new character. How do you feel about him? Are you happy with him? As my gran'pappy use ta say "You can lead a Spleen to splines, but you can't make him dink" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSpleen Posted April 13, 2009 Author Share Posted April 13, 2009 Interesting new character. How do you feel about him? Are you happy with him? As my gran'pappy use ta say "You can lead a Spleen to splines, but you can't make him dink" He was merely practice. it is a little better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSpleen Posted April 13, 2009 Author Share Posted April 13, 2009 I kinda like this guy. He has character. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frosteternal Posted April 14, 2009 Share Posted April 14, 2009 I kinda like this guy. He has character. I like the design of the character, but still some spline continuity issues, it would appear (from all the creases.) Shaded wireframe? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSpleen Posted April 14, 2009 Author Share Posted April 14, 2009 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSpleen Posted April 14, 2009 Author Share Posted April 14, 2009 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSpleen Posted April 14, 2009 Author Share Posted April 14, 2009 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJL Posted April 14, 2009 Share Posted April 14, 2009 Major improvement, Gene. Looking good Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSpleen Posted April 14, 2009 Author Share Posted April 14, 2009 thanks........but I lose alot on designing. but yeah much smoother. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSpleen Posted April 27, 2009 Author Share Posted April 27, 2009 I have not been idle. I have been steadily working on my splining. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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