Keyframes

[Wanderer]

I have a question about keyframes because I think I keep doing something wrong.

I've completed exercise six "The door is stuck" and exercise seven "Can you say that",and I keep running

across the same problem. When I put a keyframe in for a particular animation, say at frame 00:03:00, for

some reason, the action wants to go back retroactively all the way to the beginning frame,00:00:00, to start

it's motion; not at the point where I put the keyframe. Is there something I'm doing wrong or is there a bug

in the software which requires a patch?

[rickh]

Do you mean tht when you change the position of something in frame 03:00, the change is applied right back to frame 00:00 ?

 

If that is the case, all it is is you do not have Animate Mode selected. That button with a big "A" on it (top toolbar) needs to be toggled on.

 

Animate Mode can be toggled off so that, say, you can adjust the position of lights in frame 03:00 (which might be the critical frame of your animation) and the llight's position will apply for the whole scene. Normally if you try moving lights on frame 03:00, you just end up with lights that move.

 

Richard Harrowell.

[jpappas]

Wanderer,

 

If you've completed "The Door is Stuck" and "Can You Say That" then I'm assuming you must have the Animate button selected, but I think I know what you're saying and it's something which does take some getting used to. A keyframe represents the change from the last keyframe, and if there is no last keyframe, then it's the change all the way back to 0:00.

 

So if you move Shaggy's right arm at time frame 3:00 and it's the first time you've touched his right arm, it will begin moving from time frame 0:00 all the way to your keyframe at 3:00.

 

So let's say you really intended for his arm to remain motionless from 0:00 to let's say frame 2:50 and then only move from 2:50 - 3:00, you need to have keyframes for each of these times, 0:00, 2:50, and 3:00. The keyframes at 0:00 and 2:50 will have the arm in the same position since they represent how long you're holding the arm motionless, then the keyframe at 3:00 will be the new position it moves to.

 

I think Robcat made a diagram or animation that describes this better, I'll try to find that link.

 

-Jim

[Jeetman]

Wanderer,

 

If you've completed "The Door is Stuck" and "Can You Say That" then I'm assuming you must have the Animate button selected, but I think I know what you're saying and it's something which does take some getting used to. A keyframe represents the change from the last keyframe, and if there is no last keyframe, then it's the change all the way back to 0:00.

 

So if you move Shaggy's right arm at time frame 3:00 and it's the first time you've touched his right arm, it will begin moving from time frame 0:00 all the way to your keyframe at 3:00.

 

So let's say you really intended for his arm to remain motionless from 0:00 to let's say frame 2:50 and then only move from 2:50 - 3:00, you need to have keyframes for each of these times, 0:00, 2:50, and 3:00. The keyframes at 0:00 and 2:50 will have the arm in the same position since they represent how long you're holding the arm motionless, then the keyframe at 3:00 will be the new position it moves to.

 

I think Robcat made a diagram or animation that describes this better, I'll try to find that link.

 

-Jim

 

Jim,

 

This is the best explanation I've seen that explains very clearly the anguish I went through when I first tried to animate with A:M.

 

I almost gave up because it was so frustrating to me. I could do things like the "making rabbit walk" and "It's a pitch" exercise just fine but when I did the "door is stuck" exercise I was confused as to why It wouldn't (the animation) do what I wanted it to do.

 

I of course now know exactly what I was doing wrong. I just wish I had this explanation then hehe.

 

Also, the concept of each part of the model (I.E the hand, forearm, head, etc) having it's own key was confusing to me.

 

Jeff Lew explains on his DVD a quick way to make a key (other than the "create key" button). You just give the part or parts you need to move a little nudge. It creates a key at that point.

 

The real control is when you understand the spline view of the timeline.

 

George

[robcat2075]

http://www.hash.com/forums/index.php?s=&am...st&p=197119

[Wanderer]

Thanks very much.

[Logrus]

Alright so far all is going well. i have no reported frame loss. Which makes me real happy. Still not sure where my first problem arrised from. but it isnt happneing right now. My new problem is my movements are starting premature.

 

at frame 22 he is suppose to move his right foot onto the door frame, at 25 key frame he is suppose to tug on the door. at 28 he relaxes to get his other foot on the door, an at 32 he gives it his last tug. When i play it back at 22 when his right foot makes its way to the door, halfway to the door or a couple clicks up in time, his left foot starts.

 

I can not for the life of me figure out why this is doing such a thing. I have given each bone a slight movement, you cant even tell from the camera view. left foot rotates to the left, while the right foot rotates to the right. hips are moving down. in or away. head moves with the body relaxes an tugs, hands twist or bend ever so slightly. mouth opens an eyes move.

 

By rule i have given each part a specific movement even if ever so small. So by A.M law i should have given them there own keyframe. or is there a stupid hidden rule where im suppose to give a forced key frame somewhere. or the exercise wont run smooth like im animating it to...

[Fishman]

Everything has two types of keyframes, rotational and translational. Most bones only do one or the other, but some can do both. If you are making key frames by nudging bones, you may be making translational or rotational keyframes but not both. So what may be happening is that the other type of keyframe is referencing back to frame 0.

 

Best thing to do is open up the time line and look at the bones individually and see where the keyframes get set.

 

THe best way to deal with some of this may be to set key frames for all the bones at each frame by using the force keyframe button.

 

Ed Lynch has an excellent tutorial on this here: http://www.hash.com/users/ed/tutorials/animtut.htm

It is for an older version of A:M, but the basic principles still apply.

 

Hope that's helpful!

Scott

[Caroline]

Hi, Logrus - I haven't myself had the problem of losing keyframes, but I did a search and found

this thread which talks about a missing keyframe.

 

But as you're not having that problem any more, perhaps it's gone away.

 

The other problem of the left foot moving before it's supposed to, does sound like a lack of keyframe on the left foot.

 

Personally I didn't really understand how these bones were moving until I looked at the channels. If you click on a bone in the timeline, you will see the keyframes for that bone. Under the timeline there are a series of buttons:

 

[attachmentid=21841]

 

The left button will show you the channels for that bone. So, for example, if you click on the Left Foot Target Bone, and look at the Transform.Translate.Y channel, it will show the spline for movement in the Y channel. This means that when the spline goes up, the Y value goes up, so the Foot Target goes up.

 

If you look at the channels, you can very easily see unwanted spline movement where key frames have not been properly set.

 

There is a short movie somewhere, that might help, but I can't find it, I think by Robert Holmen, about Keeping Bones from Wandering.

 

It's late here, so I hope this makes some sense so you can find something to search on - there's so much information here in the forums.

[Logrus]

Caroline an Fishman, I think my problem was working with shortcuts so late at night. im figuring i must have hit some buttons i wasnt suppose to. What happened is it forgot everything i did for the first handful of keyframes, an only remembered the last 2 i did. Then when i went back at 00 it started the last 2 keyframes i did.

 

I could have sworn i made every bone move forward. back, left, right, an even rotated the ever so slightly. I even made sure the last 2 key frames to do it twice. because ive always had the problem of shaggys left moving halfway thru the right foot going onot the door frame.

 

heres what i animated prior to it happening.

 

A. Prior to shaggy moving his right leg. i move the left foot to the left, an rotate it to the left ever so slightly. i then put shaggys foot on the door,

 

B. Next seen the left foot moves back, an shaggy gives another tug with his right foot on the door.

 

C. Shaggy relaxes an throws his left foot on the door.

 

D. Shaggy gives it one final pull with all his might..

 

SO i play it back. Everything is fine til shaggy goes to put his right foot on the door, the left foot follows halfway thru. So for some odd reason i seem to always lose keyframes "B" an "C". After that the animation runs how i set it. the rest goes off with out any problems. i pretty much cut an paste a key frame so that shaggy comes down off the door frame. by using previous key frames.

 

My G/S finds it just as odd. that we both can make 50 keyframes run fine before that right foot hits the door frame, then it seems like those 2-3 keyframes are always messed up, then after that everything is exactly how we animate it. Its as if the project is purposly designed to act in such a way. cause nwo that ive gone back, i notice alot of other peoples finished projects have the same problem when the feet go to the door....

[Wanderer]

Wanderer,

 

If you've completed "The Door is Stuck" and "Can You Say That" then I'm assuming you must have the Animate button selected, but I think I know what you're saying and it's something which does take some getting used to. A keyframe represents the change from the last keyframe, and if there is no last keyframe, then it's the change all the way back to 0:00.

 

So if you move Shaggy's right arm at time frame 3:00 and it's the first time you've touched his right arm, it will begin moving from time frame 0:00 all the way to your keyframe at 3:00.

 

So let's say you really intended for his arm to remain motionless from 0:00 to let's say frame 2:50 and then only move from 2:50 - 3:00, you need to have keyframes for each of these times, 0:00, 2:50, and 3:00. The keyframes at 0:00 and 2:50 will have the arm in the same position since they represent how long you're holding the arm motionless, then the keyframe at 3:00 will be the new position it moves to.

 

I think Robcat made a diagram or animation that describes this better, I'll try to find that link.

 

-Jim

 

 

Does that mean I have to check every nuance of everything in my picture at a given keyframe to see if it hasn't been moved before because if I don't the animation will go back to the begining keyframe by default? That's a lot of checking. Sounds to me like a patch is in order for AM.

[Fishman]

One of the reasons the Ed Lynch tutorial uses the Force Keyframe method is that you will then have a keyframe for all the bones at each pose (including frame 0). This will reduce the likelihood that something is moving when you don't think it should be.

 

Another thing to check is the timeline and to look at the shape of the curves. Sometimes spline interpolation between key frames can cause overshoot, giving the impression of other keyframes when it is really just the path of the keyframes. (This is what Caroline was referring to) Sometimes you have to go in later and tidy things up by changing some interpolations to linear or hold or zero slope. You might post a screen shot of your timeline that will help us diagnose the problem.

 

Scott

 

PS: You having difficulty with an aspect of the software is not necessarily a problem with the software. If you can create a repeatable erroneous result, then you should file a report on A:M reports.

[Logrus]

Okay, the first step after you’ve set up your constraints is make sure that none of your constraints have offset channels, unless you’ve specifically set up your constraints with offsets (i.e. – torso ‘translate’ constrained to the pelvis with a y-offset to isolate the abdomen/torso from the pelvis). I use a variation of the standard Thom IK setup (see animtut.prj). The next thing you want to do is select each of your constraints and choose "lock offsets" in the constraint’s properties box. This will ensure that your character remains fixed to the constraint controls you’ve set up and will always behave like you want it to – even if you inadvertently add a keyframe.

 

Im a little confused how he is doing this an why??

 

 

Also on the force key frames. Is it something i should do on every frame until i move a part. or do i force key frame it every so often. Lets say my problem is my left foot moves when i dont want it to.. So on 00 i force keyframe the foot. Now lets say i dont plan on using that foot til the 02:00 mark. Do i force key frame it at 01:00 an then again at 01:20 the frame before i plan on moving it?

 

An do i apply the force key frame for the door along the way?

 

 

Sorry i hope i didnt offend anyone with my remarks. Just found it so odd that the pitch an walk were so simple. Even before it was explained. But this door stuck has me force key framing things, playing with constraints. including objects. learning how to work the properties, the workspace an timeline. with no prior knowledge before the project.

 

My g/f just tells me to just wing it. an Come back to the project once i finish all of the other A.M projects. She says by then i should be alot more familar with all the ins an outs of A.M.

[Caroline]

Hi, Logrus - I'm a new user, too, and I don't really understand your first paragraph.

 

What I learned and did a lot of experimenting with, was the channels for the animating. I'm glad you found that movie Keeping Bones from Wandering - I watched that one over and over. And then I experimented a lot.

 

The constraints I did EXACTLY as the manual, remembering at some stage to turn the constraints off when he lets go the handle. Those in the manual were the only constraints I used. I didn't change the standard rigging, and used only what came in Shaggy.

 

I also trashed a lot of projects, I found sometimes it's just easier to start again, with the new things that I've learned by doing.

 

That foot. If you use the left foot for the first time at 2.00, then you're going to have a gentle slope in the channels from frame 0.00 to 2.00. This means that the foot is going to move very gradually the whole time. So what I did was to wiggle the foot at 1.25 (just before 2.00). This means that the spline in the channels should be even until 1.25, then start the move to 2.00. HOWEVER, most times I forgot the pre-wiggle, and had to fix it up with a point in the channel editor.

 

Just to give you an idea, here's a screen catch from my Shaggy:

 

[attachmentid=21890]

 

In this picture, it's the timeline for the Left Foot Target. The green one is the easiest to follow, as it's the Translate.Y channel, which goes up and down. You can see exactly where the Left Foot Target goes up at 3.15 - if you want it to go up and down, you just click in the right place and drag the points.

 

Note:- (if you're using the channels) When you have a keyframe along the spline in the channels, then you can drag it up and down only. To drag it to left and right to get the timing right, you have to hold down the '1' key (not the numeric 1).

 

Disclaimer:- I am a new user and may be doing things differently from the 'pros'!

 

It is a difficult exercise and took me a LONG TIME to sort out, with lots of searching on the forums, and experimentation. I think it's the only one like that in the book, though, so even if you leave it to the end, then you may not learn more about animating. However, if you're really sick of it, then rather than get over-frustrated, then leave it and go on with the next one.

[Rodney]

Disclaimer:- I am a new user and may be doing things differently from the 'pros'!

 

Hey, thats not necessarily a bad thing even if you are!

 

Thanks for taking the time to post your experience with the Channel Editor.

I agree that this is something that tends to escape beginning animators... there is a lot to learn!

 

Having people (new users and pros alike) share their experiences is key to breaking through to success.

For the new user there is the learning. For the pro there is validation and extension of that experience through teaching.

 

At any given time an animator can look back and remember their influences, experiences (frustrations and confusions too!). At the end of the day its the recollection and collaborations that will stay with you.

That and taking time to photograph your giraffe with your kids!

 

Thanks Caroline!

[robcat2075]

Also on the force key frames. Is it something i should do on every frame until i move a part. or do i force key frame it every so often. Lets say my problem is my left foot moves when i dont want it to.. So on 00 i force keyframe the foot. Now lets say i dont plan on using that foot til the 02:00 mark. Do i force key frame it at 01:00 an then again at 01:20 the frame before i plan on moving it?

 

Basically, if you want a foot to stay put from 00:00 to 02:00 you need keys on 00:00 and 02:00 and they need to be "zero-slope" keys. More keys in the middle won't change much about the foot, but if you get some because you've been force-keying the whole model it won't hurt anything.

 

 

An do i apply the force key frame for the door along the way?

Probably not. But the same principles apply. if you want the door to stay put from 00:00 to 05:00 you need keys on 00:00 and 05:00 and they need to be "zero-slope" keys.

 

 

Sorry i hope i didnt offend anyone with my remarks. Just found it so odd that the pitch an walk were so simple. Even before it was explained.

That's why those came first. Those pretty much make you move the whole body for every key so the advanced concept of keying something to make it stay still isnt' needed yet.

 

But this door stuck has me force key framing things, playing with constraints. including objects. learning how to work the properties, the workspace an timeline. with no prior knowledge before the project.

Gotta introduce them sometime. That's what this project does.

 

My g/f just tells me to just wing it.

ok, I think we've found the problem...

[Logrus]

Hi, Logrus - I'm a new user, too, and I don't really understand your first paragraph.

 

What I learned and did a lot of experimenting with, was the channels for the animating. I'm glad you found that movie Keeping Bones from Wandering - I watched that one over and over. And then I experimented a lot.

 

The constraints I did EXACTLY as the manual, remembering at some stage to turn the constraints off when he lets go the handle. Those in the manual were the only constraints I used. I didn't change the standard rigging, and used only what came in Shaggy.

 

I also trashed a lot of projects, I found sometimes it's just easier to start again, with the new things that I've learned by doing.

 

That foot. If you use the left foot for the first time at 2.00, then you're going to have a gentle slope in the channels from frame 0.00 to 2.00. This means that the foot is going to move very gradually the whole time. So what I did was to wiggle the foot at 1.25 (just before 2.00). This means that the spline in the channels should be even until 1.25, then start the move to 2.00. HOWEVER, most times I forgot the pre-wiggle, and had to fix it up with a point in the channel editor.

 

Just to give you an idea, here's a screen catch from my Shaggy:

 

[attachmentid=21890]

 

In this picture, it's the timeline for the Left Foot Target. The green one is the easiest to follow, as it's the Translate.Y channel, which goes up and down. You can see exactly where the Left Foot Target goes up at 3.15 - if you want it to go up and down, you just click in the right place and drag the points.

 

Note:- (if you're using the channels) When you have a keyframe along the spline in the channels, then you can drag it up and down only. To drag it to left and right to get the timing right, you have to hold down the '1' key (not the numeric 1).

 

Disclaimer:- I am a new user and may be doing things differently from the 'pros'!

 

It is a difficult exercise and took me a LONG TIME to sort out, with lots of searching on the forums, and experimentation. I think it's the only one like that in the book, though, so even if you leave it to the end, then you may not learn more about animating. However, if you're really sick of it, then rather than get over-frustrated, then leave it and go on with the next one.

 

Yeah im starting to really understand this part of the program alot more then i did earlier today. i had one of my old door is stuck saved data to play with it. On both projects i could pin point when it actually moved, an was able for the most part to pin it from sliding. The only real problem im now having is to stop the little sliding around its tending to do before it moved to the door frame.

[Rodney]

The only real problem im now having is to stop the little sliding around its tending to do before it moved to the door frame.

 

If you haven't played with the various Interpolation settings (Linear, Hold, Spline, etc) definitely do that.

Right Click once you've selected your keyframes and change the Interpolation as desired.

You can also tweak the Bias handles to get better Ease In and Ease Out on your poses.

[Logrus]

The only real problem im now having is to stop the little sliding around its tending to do before it moved to the door frame.

 

If you haven't played with the various Interpolation settings (Linear, Hold, Spline, etc) definitely do that.

Right Click once you've selected your keyframes and change the Interpolation as desired.

You can also tweak the Bias handles to get better Ease In and Ease Out on your poses.

 

Yeah i spent a few minutes just playing with them. Im just curious now what those differnt settings functions are, an what situations id use them for. im just Not really gettin to lucky on my search to find information on it..

[Caroline]

I've only used Default (spline) and Hold so far.

 

I couldn't find much either, but this link is From The Technical Manual

[Logrus]

I've only used Default (spline) and Hold so far.

 

I couldn't find much either, but this link is From The Technical Manual

 

Yeah Carol, thats the only one i found last night that gave me some information on their basic use. Nothing i found yet that actually went into details about them from the A.M community.

 

Later on tpday i hope to take what ive now learned, an give this project another go round...

[robcat2075]

Yeah Carol, thats the only one i found last night that gave me some information on their basic use. Nothing i found yet that actually went into details about them from the A.M community.

 

Can you say more about what you don't understand about the channels/bias settings?

[Logrus]

I am at witts end with this project. It seems no matter what i do i can not keep my models feet from moving prematurely. In fact this last project was worse then the last one i did. Because now the right foot wants to start moving from the first few frames. Something that didnt haapen my first few go arounds with it. So i figure no prob i can go back an fix it on the timeline. THen i move my left foot up to the door. AN low an behold. it decides to move from the start of the project.

 

Why is this happening? I forced key framed both feet from the start. mid point i forced another frame, an then i forced the keyframe just before i moved the feet. an Yet they still moved. Why is this happening. What am i not doing right within these few sets of frames. Cause its really starting to irritate me.

[Caroline]

I've been trying to find some screen capture software that actually works, and doesn't take 68mb per second. That may take time....

 

So, I've downloaded Wink, and this is my first attempt, so please forgive it.

 

This demonstrates just moving Shaggy's Right Foot, then his Left Foot (and I also had to move his hips to get the right position.) I moved and rotated both his feet. Right foot at 0:10, and Left Foot at 0:20. You can see what happens here:

www.popsyland.com/hash/shaggy.htm

 

(It's about 0.7mb, so not big).

 

There are green left and right arrows at the bottom right to navigate to the next screen capture.

 

Try reproducing what I did there in those few keyframes, and you may start to see why the left foot is moving when it "shouldn't".

 

The first half dozen times you watch it, it probably won't make sense, but once you tried exactly that a few times, then I hope it will.

[Fishman]

Caroline, that is an excellent little tutorial. You captured the essence of the problem of spline interpolation when trying to keep things in place.

 

Another potetial source of problems with Shaggy is the Balance and Balance Rigid poses. Go to frame 0 and turn off the Balance and Balance Rigid poses.

 

Scott

[Logrus]

Much much love on that video Caroline. Just watching it for the first time, made me realize that my steps to go thru all the corrections to fix it was indeed the right path. The part where you went thru the steps on how to actually go about using interpolation method was exactly the only process i was hesitant about. Thank you very much for clearing that up..

 

I Still have no clue why my right foot wanted to move from the first frame til it got to the door. This was never a problem in any of my other projects i scrapped. The other problem i have is why did the left foot move what so ever when i forced framed the whole foot. unless my whole understanding of the key branch button was way off.

 

Since im taking the feet to the waist an above. I always turn of my balance rigs.. So i dont think that has anything to do with my feet moving regardless if i use force keyframe bone, branch or model..

[Caroline]

Thanks, Scott - I do forget the Balance Rigid. I expect it's useful somewhere.

 

Logrus - just a suggestion, if you're still having problems - perhaps it would help if you reset all your settings (Help Menu > Reset Settings), and just started again slowly.

 

You're way ahead of me using those buttons at the bottom (the Key Bone, etc). I did my Shaggy exercise without touching any of them, as I don't know yet what each one does, and, personally, I can only learn one thing at a time. Those buttons may be putting in a variable that you don't yet need.